Dads Get Postpartum Depression Too

Did you know that dads can get postpartum depression just like new mothers can? For new dads it’s called paternal postpartum depression or PPPD. It’s possible to have experienced it and not even realize that’s what you were going through because it isn’t talked about with dads to the extent that it is with moms. But my guest is bringing awareness of this diagnosis and what a dad who might be suffering from PPPD can do about it.

My guest is Rachael Schmitz. Rachael is a doctoral student at William Carey University. She has done extensive research on paternal postpartum depression as well as conducting her own qualitative research study and she is here now to bring more awareness to families and the world about PPPD.

You can reach out to Rachael with any questions or participate in her study by emailing her at: rachaelschmitz3@gmail.com

Special thanks to Zencastr for sponsoring The Fatherhood Challenge. Use my special link https://zen.ai/CWHIjopqUnnp9xKhbWqscGp-61ATMClwZ1R8J5rm824WHQIJesasjKDm-vGxYtYJ to save 30% off your first month of any Zencastr paid plan.

-Program Transcript-

Did you know that dads can get post-partum depression

just like new mothers can?

For new dads, it's called paternal post-partum depression

or PPPD.

It's possible to have experienced it

and not even realize that that's what you were going through

because it isn't talked about with dads

to the extent that it's talked about with moms.

But my guest is here to bring awareness

and to bring us conscious to this diagnosis

and what a dad who might be suffering from PPPD

can do about it.

It's all gonna be coming here in just a moment

so don't go anywhere.

- Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge,

a movement to awaken and inspire fathers everywhere

to take great pride in their role

and a challenge society to understand

how important fathers are to the stability

and culture of their family's environment.

Now here's your host, Jonathan Guerrero.

- Greetings everyone, thank you so much for joining me.

My guest is Rachel Schmitz.

Rachel is a doctoral student at William Care University.

She has done extensive research on paternal postpartum depression

as well as conducting her own qualitative research study

and she is here now to bring more awareness to families

and the world about PPPD.

Rachel, thank you so much for being on the Fatherhood Challenge.

- Hi, how are you?

- Rachel, why don't we start out by you telling me

how you got involved with studying paternal postpartum depression?

What's your own personal story?

- So my own personal experiences,

I experience postpartum depression with two of my children

and I work as a RN in obstetrics

and so I have a lot of professional experience with it as well.

When I started my doctoral studies,

I knew that postpartum depression was going to be

part of my dissertation at some point.

- So you started with your own personal struggle with your kids?

- Yes.

- How did it go from there to paternal postpartum depression?

What led you to be interested in that?

- That's a great question.

So there is so much research and studies

that have been done on maternal postpartum depression

and that really is something that most people generally

are aware of as a condition that can happen after childbirth.

There's a lot of names that are given to it,

baby blues, different things like that.

They just kind of highlight the hormonal changes

that occur after delivery.

But as I started to do the research

and started to learn more about father's experiencing

or you could say mirroring the symptoms of the mother,

there was very little research out there.

And as I started to think about it and realized

that this is something that not only is not talked about,

but many mothers and fathers really know nothing about this.

And I started to realize this is something that really

needs to be highlighted.

The fathers play a pivotal role in the family

and ignoring this or not making new fathers aware

of something like this that could happen

is not only an unfortunate thing to do,

but it really sets the family up to have some struggles

because of the lack of awareness

and because of the lack of education

from as a healthcare professional,

I think it's really important that we educate patients

on things that potentially could happen

and not acknowledging something as significant

as depression and the new father seemed to be an area

that really needed to be researched more.

- I'll be honest, I hadn't heard of PPPD until last year.

So why aren't more people talking about it?

- Some of the reasons I think people don't talk about it

is the stigmas that go along with mental health.

Mental health is a pretty complicated thing.

It impacts people in different ways.

A lot of fathers may not really feel comfortable

talking about mental health issues.

I have found in my research so far

that a lot of the symptoms that men experience

with postpartum depression can be some of the stereotypical symptoms

like we think about with regular depression.

So sadness, loss of interest, trouble sleeping, sleeping too much,

but in men, they can actually manifest some different symptoms.

So some men will verbalize some reckless behavior,

some increased aggression.

So there is a slightly different manifestation

of the depression in men.

The other thing is that I think experiencing postpartum depression

for a new father, for a man is very different

from a lot of the societal views

and a lot of the societal pressure.

So men have a, there's kind of an underpinning stereotypical.

Men are the providers, they're to be strong

and take care of everything.

And a lot of those symptoms in depression

can kind of contradict some of those traditional stereotypes.

So that's the other bigger reason I think in addition

to the stigma that go with mental health,

that men truly struggle with those symptoms

because it is contradictory to how a lot of men,

at least society, pressures them to look at themselves.

I wanna dig a little bit deeper and really,

or maybe simpler, I wanna talk about

what exactly is paternal postpartum depression?

How is it different from just being depressed?

And what I mean by that is for someone who doesn't really

know what this is, who's hearing about this for the first time,

even postpartum depression in a mother,

for someone who doesn't know,

it makes them scratch their head and think,

that doesn't make any sense.

You've just had the most joyful experience of your life.

There are a lot of people who can't have children,

who would give anything to be able to have that experience.

What in the world are you depressed about?

So this is what I'm trying to speak

what a lot of people may not say but might be thinking.

And so what would you say to those people?

- So I think that's a really common misconception.

And I will share that that belief system

or those thoughts are shared with new mothers as well,

meaning that you have this brand new baby.

This is what you wanted to get pregnant,

to have this baby.

Now the baby is here and you're not very happy.

So a lot of that, actually a lot of that belief

and that viewpoint is what causes new mothers

to feel really guilty about the symptoms that they have

because they're trying to reconcile that in their mind,

that they are joyful, that the baby is here

and they are happy and they do love the baby,

but they can't ignore those symptoms.

So for men, I think a lot of it goes back

to some of the things that they're struggling

with as a new father.

Some of the things that I've already kind of identified

in talking with new fathers are just some of the things

that they struggle with as new dads.

I think most people when they talk about parenthood,

they really just kind of focus on the mother

and what she goes through.

But there can be a lot of trauma for the new fathers.

They're kind of brought into the birth experience

without a lot of education or without a lot of experience

and that new role can be kind of overwhelming.

Obviously it goes without saying

but having a newborn that can be really demanding,

you're sleep deprived, it's exhausting.

It can feel like a cycle, you're just wake up,

feed the baby, go to work, come home,

take care of the baby, go to bed,

it kind of feels like the same thing again and again.

And a lot of that can kind of cause problems

with that role adjustment.

Some of the other issues that I've identified

so far in the research is the struggles

within the relationship.

So that baby causing a bit of a marital strain,

making it a little bit more difficult to communicate

with your spouse, making the communication

or different ways that you handle things

have to be kind of different.

So men and women are very different.

They communicate very differently.

I may say something to my husband

and he may hear what I said and interpret it a different way.

So the other issue really is just the symptoms of depression.

Some of those symptoms, again,

feeling distance, distracted, pressure

to be a good partner

and really feeling like you're being a failure.

You don't really know how to help kids.

A lot of dads I talk to,

they have no experience with childcare prior to being a dad

so they don't really know how to help the baby.

And that's very frustrating

and actually can make them feel as a failure in that new role.

So there's a lot of things that kind of go into that role formation

and having very little information prior to

and then not really feeling very comfortable in that role afterwards

can really make dad struggle

and feel really ignored, maybe confused

as they transition to the new role.

You go from being an independent person

to now you're responsible for a whole nother human being.

So it's very stressful.

So if you're experiencing any of this

that we're talking about,

these are the warning signs

that you might have paternal postpartum depression, correct?

Yes.

So some of the typical depression symptoms

that I would say most people are pretty aware of.

There are some different things that you'll see in fathers.

So maybe some risk taking,

maybe just feeling kind of distracted.

In other words, just going through the motions

of what you need to do

but not really being present in the moment,

not really enjoying that interaction

so you're caring for the baby

but you're not really enjoying or present in that moment.

You're just kind of going through the motions.

A lot of that is the depression

and it's unfortunately a barrier for fathers to that role,

to embracing their children.

Yeah, and I want to, there's something else too

I want to really get into

and I've gotten into this with other episodes and other guests

and I think it's really time to bring this up again

for dads that are listening.

And that is there's this stereotype

that mothers have it all together,

that they know everything, that they are prepared

and everything is just there.

It is intuitive, it is somehow just ingrained in their DNA

all the way through the birth experience

and after the birth experience

to know what to do,

to know how to care for the baby and everything.

And what I'm here to tell you to be very blunt about

is that is a flat out lie.

So no, mothers do not have it all figured out.

So there's a big similarity there in the anxiety

and the worry and the concern the dads have,

the feeling of that you're just not prepared enough

that you don't know enough, that you're not ready.

Those are the same emotions that mothers go through.

- Yeah, I would agree 100%.

And I will say there maybe is a little bit of preparation

for those moms that maybe did baby set as teenagers

or maybe had younger siblings that they cared for.

There is a little bit of an advantage

in that they do know a little bit as far as taking care

of the basic needs of the infant.

But I will say it kind of goes back to those traditional roles

that men are supposed to be tough

and that is really contradictory to somebody

that's really vulnerable or loving.

And it really is a difficult thing for fathers

to navigate that when they really don't know what to expect.

They're really used to kind of protecting that mother

and having that role.

And then when you get into a situation

like a complicated emergency delivery

or something like that, that is traumatic.

That is traumatic for the mother.

It's traumatic for the father.

And the fathers are kind of left feeling just empty

inside as far as the experience that they went through.

And because of some of those societal roles

that I think men play, it's difficult for them to reach out

and say, "Hey, my mental health is struggling.

"I'm really having a hard time with this.

"I'm really upset.

"I'm having trauma from what I witnessed."

Women as being the patient in that scenario,

and I know this is a clinical professional.

Women's needs are being addressed somewhat in that way,

in that the OB staff is addressing the mom

and they're addressing, they can see that she's scared

and that she's nervous and some of that

is being addressed through the staff.

But for dads, they are really put on the outside

of that equation, so to speak, where they are present,

however, they're not part of that management

from the healthcare perspective.

So their scene is just an ancillary part of that.

And then when that young family goes home,

that mom has had a little bit of interaction

with healthcare staff to assess how she's doing

and how she's coping.

And the dad is not part of that equation at all.

So some of that goes back to the dads feeling somewhat ignored

in the whole dynamic or the whole equation.

And some of that, some of those feelings actually

are a barrier to some of the bonding that takes place.

Some of the education that's provided to the dads,

at least from my study so far,

to say that it's been deficient would really be an understatement.

You know, there's been maybe one person that's mentioned

about postpartum depression for men

and a lot of dads express that they had no education about it.

Some of that translates to dads not feeling

that their role is valuable, which is really sad,

because like I said before, they play a crucial role

in that situation.

- If the dad was raised himself in a very harsh home,

a harsh environment where there was physical abuse

present, where there was a lot of verbal abuse,

maybe even sexual abuse that was present, abuse in any form.

And that was the environment that he grew up in.

There's going to be a lot of anxiety,

a lot of negative emotions that could rise up around the birth,

a lot of insecurity, a feeling of, you know,

why would I be prepared for this, given how I was raised

and how the upbringing that I had.

And that can really, that alone can cause a dad to shut down

if he's unaware that that's what's happening

and he hasn't done anything to seek out help for that.

- Yes, and I would even add to that,

that some of the trauma that the young fathers

have experienced or witnessed through their emergency

or traumatic birth, some of that trauma translates

to like a PTSD where, you know,

their baby spent a little bit of time in the NICU

and that beeping monitor sound that is,

is heard every moment while that baby is in the NICU

can be a little bit of a trauma trigger for them

where they hear that and it immediately brings them back

to that really difficult situation.

And there is a little bit of a compensation

or overcompensation for men that may become

from a fatherless situation

or maybe their fathers were present,

but they were very stern, difficult, you know,

how you mentioned it.

Maybe those fathers don't really know how they want

to be as fathers, but they know they don't want

to be like their father.

So they will try to compensate in another extreme

where they're trying to kind of,

they don't want to be the father that they were raised by.

Some of that contributes to some of that confusion

and some of the guilt, some of the shame

that goes with depression because again,

that really contradicts that belief system

of how these men are supposed to be very stoic

and they're supposed to be able to just manage everything

and control everything and protect their wife

and protect their baby.

And at the same time, they're struggling with something

that they can't ignore either

that's happening within themselves.

- Do we know anything about the number of dads

who have been undiagnosed?

- So the studies currently show that one in 10 fathers

have paternal postpartum depression.

I actually believe that it's a lot higher than that

and the reason that I believe that is--

- I think so too.

- A lot of the fathers that I've talked to

have shared symptoms of postpartum depression,

but then when I will discuss my study

and reaching out to them to have a conversation,

a lot of those fathers will, I would say ghost me,

they don't wanna talk to me.

And I think a lot of that comes with the guilt

and maybe the stigma of mental health.

So again, it's still a very well documented issue

within mental health that people have a lot of guilt,

a lot of shame when it comes to mental health.

Some of the fathers have verbalized,

you know, they have some guilt expressing some issues

after the delivery because the focus is typically

on the mother and they feel like they're taking

the spotlight away from her in some sense.

So they don't wanna do that.

They recognize the role that she played in the delivery.

So they kinda wanna give her that moment

to make sure that her needs are met.

But there really is the stigma of mental health

and I do believe that it's more than one in 10.

I think that it's probably a lot higher than that.

But again, men just ignoring those symptoms,

maybe not wanting to get the help.

Those men are just not, they're not counted

because they're not seeking help.

- How prepared are birth centers,

delivery departments and hospitals

and birth-themed care providers at educating mothers

and fathers about paternal postpartum depression?

- Unfortunately, I would say most, it's abysmal.

It's not something that is generally talked about

beforehand and when it is mentioned,

sometimes during that postpartum stay,

it might be mentioned in passing,

just some education about it,

but it's mentioned in a way that is not really conducive

to men learning.

Meaning if you go into the hospital, your wife has a baby.

You might be up for 24 to 48 hours yourself,

not getting sleep, not really eating well.

You're in the hospital with your wife who's having a baby.

And then that postpartum stay that one to two day period after,

that's not an ideal time to educate somebody

who is sleep deprived, who is not mentally,

you could say, really checked in.

The time to really do that, I feel,

is during that pregnancy period.

So you have eight or nine months

where you have that captive audience

and they're coming in for the prenatal checks

and the mother is coming in to check on her

and check on the baby.

That really to me is a more ideal time

to kind of bring that father into the education

and start it then.

Rachel, if I could have gone back

and done both of the birth experiences all over again,

do you know what I would have done differently

or what I would have changed if I could?

What's that?

I would have had a therapist before the birth

and I would have had a therapist, the same therapist,

I would have been seeing that same therapist after the birth.

That's what I would have done differently.

I think that's a great idea.

I think that if new fathers had that support,

if they had that resource that they could put in place,

I think you would see a lot less problems afterward.

So there are some studies that have shown

that fathers that are experiencing depression

have some long term issues with the child,

meaning they've done some studies

where they have evaluated fathers

that screened positive for depression

and followed up with those children at 18 years old

and there are higher rates of mental health issues

like anxiety, depression.

There are some things that they've identified as far

as knowledge as far as testing, standardized testing,

meaning those kids did not score as high

in the group that had those fathers that were depressed.

And some of that makes a little bit of sense

when you think about somebody that's depressed,

that is present in their child's life

but is just going through the motions,

that that would block some of that interaction,

some of that learning that's necessary for that child

especially as you have a brand new child

whose brain is growing and changing every day.

So there are some long term studies

that look at some of the potential issues.

And then on a short term basis,

I don't know that I'm sure there's been some studies

that have been done but I would just presume

that if you are having some fighting,

arguing, marital issues,

probably much higher divorce rate,

the other thing that most serious I would say

is that some fathers, as they struggle to adjust to that new role,

they question their presence in that family.

And in other words, start to think,

well maybe it would be easier if I was not here.

So some fathers actually do convey suicidal thoughts

just because of the fact that they don't really see

where they fit in

and they're struggling with attaining that new role.

So to them, it's kind of a reasonable job

that you would say, well, yeah, if I don't fit in here

and I feel like I'm failing at this job

and there's so much pressure to do well in this job

but even though I feel like I'm doing a terrible job,

a lot of dads will become suicidal

and think to themselves, it might be easier if I'm not here.

What should a dad do if he believes

that he's experiencing symptoms or the warning signs

of paternal pros part of depression?

A couple things.

The first thing I would say is talk to your partner about it.

I have not talked to anybody so far that has said

when they brought this up with their partner

that their partner was not supportive.

So the first thing would be to reach out to your partner,

be honest about how you're feeling

and let them know that you are really, really struggling.

The next thing I would say is reach out to your healthcare

professional, let them know what you're struggling with,

let them know your symptoms.

If you reach out to a healthcare professional

and you feel like you are blown off

or they're not taking your symptoms seriously

or you just feel like they're not really hearing

what you're saying, go to another healthcare professional

just like therapists.

You might find a very good therapist

and the two of you might click

and you may feel like they really understand you

and they're really helpful

or you may find that you're not really clicking

with that therapist.

Go find another therapist.

So go find another healthcare professional.

There's a lot of issues with mental healthcare in this country.

I think most people would agree with that.

It's difficult to make an appointment.

It's difficult to make any kind of connection

to any therapist.

A lot of people fear that they're gonna get blown off.

A lot of people really do,

we'll say that they were kind of blown off by their therapist

or maybe they had a bad experience

with the provider or the psychiatrist.

Mental health is important to your physical health.

If your mental health is struggling,

that is gonna impact your physical health

and until there's coverage that backs that up,

people are gonna struggle.

So you could reach out to your EAP

and at least try to get those handful of visits in.

Those might be enough to get you past that acute phase

and then maybe consider or try to get somebody

that will at least participate with your insurance

and then you pay co-pays.

But mental health is just critical to physical health.

Rachel, how can listeners follow you

to learn more about your work or ask questions

related to paternal post-partum depression?

I have a website that I can share with you.

My school website, if anybody would like to participate

in the study, feel free to reach out to me.

And I am just happy to be working in mental health

as far as this area.

It's something that both personally and professionally

I have experience with.

And I'm really, I have two sons and a daughter

and I'm just passionate about making sure

that they don't face some of these issues

when they have kids.

I'm gonna also put all of the contact information

on the Fatherhood Challenge website.

So if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com,

that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com,

go to this episode, look right below the episode description

and all of the contact information and links

will be posted right there for your convenience.

And as we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?

My challenge for dads listening now would be to,

if you're struggling with symptoms of depression,

to reach out, talk to your partner, talk to your friends,

talk to your family.

The more that we talk about it,

the more that we make this part of our everyday conversation,

that will help remove a lot of that stigma.

And if you are reaching out to somebody

and you perceive that they're not addressing

your concerns adequately,

find another provider that will.

If you're talking to a therapist

and you feel like it's not helping,

they don't understand what you're going through.

Find another therapist.

You may have to find several therapists

before you find the one that works for you.

But mental health is important.

It's not something that you should ignore.

It does impact your relationship.

It does impact your child.

And it impacts you.

It impacts your physical health.

So it's not something to be ignored.

If you don't feel like you're getting the help that you need,

continue to advocate for yourself.

And don't be afraid to reach out.

If you're struggling, it's okay to say that you're struggling

and get the help that you need.

Rachel, it has been an honor having you

on the Fatherhood Challenge to talk about something so important.

Thank you so much for all of the hard work

that you've done towards talking about this issue.

The effects of this will be felt for many generations

because of what you're doing.

So thank you so much.

Thank you for what you do.

I appreciate what you do as well.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Fatherhood

Challenge.

If you would like to contact us,

listen to other episodes.

Find any resource mentioned in this program

or find out more information about The Fatherhood Challenge.

Please visit thefatherhoodchallenge.com.

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