Today we welcome Jayne Havens, the founder of the Snooze Fest sleep training course and The Center for Pediatric Sleep Management™ sleep consultant certification program. Just like how Meagan’s birth experiences led her to become a doula and VBAC advocate, Jayne talks about how the knowledge she gained by teaching healthy sleep habits to her own children helped her create a passionate career.

Jayne answers Meagan’s questions about sleep consulting in general, how to help children feel safe in their bedrooms, ways to effectively communicate, developmental milestones in both babies and children that can affect sleep, how to become a sleep consultant, where to find them, and even earning potential from a career as a sleep consultant!

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Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:24 Review of the Week

05:35 Jayne’s journey to sleep consulting

13:35 How can a sleep consultant help?

19:43 What to do when a child feels unsafe in their room

21:08 The life of a sleep consultant

25:17 Sleep consultant qualifications

30:36 Ages covered in Jayne’s course

36:00 How to find a sleep consultant

40:59 Cost to hire a sleep consultant and potential earnings as a sleep consultant

46:57 Where to find “Becoming a Sleep Consultant” 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is Meagan and we have my friend, Jayne Havens on the podcast today. Hello, Jayne. 

Jayne: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. 

Meagan: Thank you. Me too. We actually just met this year, 2024 in January and we met at a business doula retreat. Jayne is actually not a doula. She is a mom and a successful business owner. When we connected, I just felt so much that our stories related in different ways but very much in the same ways and I was like, “I want you on the podcast.” So today, we’re not sharing a VBAC birth story, but we’re sharing a business birth story and some tips on sleep and how to help your babies sleep because we know as mamas with newborn babies, we don’t get a lot of that sometimes and it doesn’t have to be that way. 

I’m so excited to have Jayne Havens who is a certified sleep consultant and runs her own sleep consulting practice, Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and you also have a podcast. 

Jayne: I do. It’s called Becoming a Sleep Consultant. 

Meagan: Becoming a Sleep Consultant. As a new parent overwhelmed by exhaustion like I just said we all have with a newborn, Jayne found herself reading everything she could find in order to get her own son to sleep through the night. Now, if you are driving, don’t raise your hand because keep your hands on the wheel, but you can nod if you understand that sentence right there. I definitely was that with my son and my daughter and my first. I’ve had three and we have to figure it out and every baby is different. 

So friends, quickly after she mastered this, started asking her, “Help, please!” She started doing that and helping all of these moms and babies sleep better, feel better, and just live better. Jayne’s children were both fabulous sleepers and they began coming to her for that help because they saw it. 

We are so excited to have Jayne today. 

02:24 Review of the Week

Meagan: I do think that a Review of the Week is needed so I”m going to hurry and share a Review of the Week and then we will dive right into this amazing episode. 

Okay, so this review is from sarahgb and it says, “Full of knowledge, fun, and strength-filled stories.” It says, “First off, I would like to say that I am 16 years old and a doula in training and lover of anything pregnancy, birth, and baby related. This podcast is literally exactly what I have been looking for and wanting. I have been listening for a long time and cannot stop. I think I’ve listened to four or five episodes in one day.” 

Wow, that’s definitely some binge-listening. 

It says, “I love the variety of stories and listening to all of the Women of Strength share in their successes. I also love the few minutes at the end when Julie and Meagan give information, facts, and tips on certain pregnancy and birth topics related to the birth story. I have learned so much from listening to these birth stories and it helps me prepare for things I might come into contact with as a doula. I absolutely cannot wait to have my own kids and we will be listening to this podcast forever especially when I’m pregnant. I could say so much more, but Julie and Meagan, I am thankful for all of your hard work, sacrifice, and spirits as this has made all of this possible. 

“God has truly blessed y’all. By the way, I am going to take your VBAC course and when I graduate high school, I cannot wait.” 

I love that. That was a little while ago back when Julie and I were podcasting together, so hopefully, sarahgb, you are graduated and with us today. 

05:35 Jayne’s journey to sleep consulting

Meagan: All right, Ms. Jayne, how are you today? 

Jayne: I’m good. Thank you for having me again. I actually am just getting over sickness from last week so if my voice sounds a little weird, that’s why, but I feel fine and I’m excited to be here. 

Meagan: Good. Well, you sound great to me and I’m so excited that you are here. I wanted to start right off with your story. I mean, we are storytellers here on this podcast and I think that your story goes obviously so much into why we are here today. 

Jayne: Sure. So I am a wife and a mother. I live in Baltimore, Maryland with my husband and two kids. They are 7 and 11 now and I got into this journey of becoming a sleep consultant back really when my son was born. Prior to having children, I worked in catering sales. I was an event planner. I planned weddings, corporate holiday parties, and graduate celebrations. I worked nights, weekends, and holidays. I loved it, but it was really hard work. I always knew that it wasn’t going to be a great fit for me when I had kids one day. I wanted to be more present for them. 

I was raised by a stay-at-home mom so that’s all I ever knew. My life’s dream was to be a mom who is first in line in carpool with the best snacks. That’s the mom that I wanted to be with the station wagon. Remember station wagons? 

Meagan: Yes. I sure do. Oh my gosh. 

Jayne: I wanted to drive a station wagon and be first in the carpool line and have the best snacks and take my kids to tennis lessons and that be my life’s work. So I quit my job in catering when my son was born and I had four glorious years as a stay-at-home mom. My son was delightful and delicious and he was just perfect in every single way and then I had my daughter and she was a really tough baby. 

I can say this with love now because she is 7 and she’s amazing, but it was really, really hard when she was born especially because my son was just such an easy baby and he was so smiley and happy. Everything just worked out as it should. My daughter had a milk, soy, and protein intolerance and was colicky. She just literally cried. She cried and that was it. 

Meagan: That’s so hard. 

Jayne: It was so hard. It gave me a run for my money because I thought I was this amazing mom and I would look around at all of these other moms who had babies that were crying and I’m like, “What’s wrong with you? Why can’t you get it together?” Then I had one of my own and I was like, “Oh, now I get it.” 

It really put me in my place. I really didn’t enjoy motherhood the second time around if I’m being completely honest and transparent. So I was looking for an outlet. I needed something else to fulfill me because that stay-at-home mom life that I thrived on for four years was no longer serving me in the same way. 

My husband is a lawyer. At the time, he was traveling a lot for work. Everybody had gotten really used to me being the primary caregiver and the one who maintained the children and the house. None of us could really see that changing. 

Jayne: Going back to work in the traditional sense didn’t even seem like a possibility. I started thinking about, “What could I do from home? What could I do not even to make a ton of money but just to do something to keep me fulfilled and entertained and inspired?” I kept coming back to sleep consulting because I actually was really good at getting my own kids to sleep. 

I had sleep-trained my son when he was four months old. He took to it beautifully. It was really– as a first-time mom, he cried for 27 minutes and so did I. It was hard at the time, but he really took to it beautifully and it was life-changing. I understood very early on the value of having routine and order and rituals and a set expectation around what sleep could and should look like in my home for both my husband and I and for our children. 

The same thing with my daughter– as much as she cried during the day, she slept beautifully. The only time she wasn’t crying was when she was sleeping. 

Meagan: When she was sleeping at night. 

Jayne: Yeah. She was a beautiful sleeper, but when she was awake, she was crying. So I was really good at getting my own kids to sleep. For years, I was the friend who just helped other friends with their kids’ sleep. I didn’t have a formal process. I wasn’t formally trained. It was just like, I would get onto a call with them and give them advice and text message them some tips and I would help them. I would get them results. It was working. 

I did that for years. I helped friends, friends of friends, and eventually, I just decided, you know what? I’m going to get certified. It turns out there are courses online where you can get trained to do this and turned my hobby into a business. My intention was really just to dabble. I wasn’t looking to build an empire. I just wanted to be able to help families and if I could bring in a little bit of money to contribute to our family’s income, great. 

Very quickly, after launching my business, I realized that this wasn’t just going to be a little passion project, that this was going to be a very legitimate career. That was very exciting to me. It was thrilling. 

Jayne: Really, the timing worked out because as the business grew, my children were growing too. By that time, my son was in school full-day. My daughter was in at least part-time preschool, so I really had time to build my business. Each year, they spent more time in school and I could spend more time on my business. Really, we all grew together which was amazing. 

Not too long after that, I founded a center for pediatric sleep management which is an online sleep consultant certification course. The reason I decided to create my own is because I just felt like I could do it better and I did. I’m really committing to supporting my students at a really high level and not just teaching them how to sleep-train a baby or how to set boundaries with a three-year-old, but how to launch, grow, and scale a really successful business. I love taking women, and we actually have a tiny handful of men inside of our program too, but it’s largely women. I love taking these women through the entrepreneurial journey and helping them to realize that they are capable of doing things that are outside of their comfort zone and growing something that is entirely theirs that they can be really proud of. I think at this point, that actually even brings me more joy than sleep-training the babies if I’m being truthful. 

Meagan: Right? Well, to be able to see so many grow and flourish for their families and for themselves, there is something. I mean, as someone who trains doulas and even has doulas in my own group here in Utah, it’s so awesome to see that confidence. I remember back in the day before I started my journey, I didn’t have that confidence. To think about someone like you or my mentor being there for me, it’s priceless. It’s the most amazing thing and it’s really rewarding on the other end on your side to see that happen. 

Of course, in addition to helping people sleep and do better all around. 

Jayne: Yeah. Win-win. 

Meagan: Win-win. 

13:35 How can a sleep consultant help?

Meagan: Okay, so let’s talk a little bit more about what a sleep consultant does and looks like because personally, I was that mom who was sitting on the couch listening to my baby upstairs crying. This was my first and my husband was just holding and he was like, “You’ve got this. You’ve got this. Don’t move.” I’m like, “But!” I didn’t move and it worked out and it was great. I still even to this day feel like my kids are pretty good sleepers. It came with a lot of reading and stuff, but I had never even heard of a sleep consultant. 

My second was also really hard– always crying all the time. She also had milk and dairy and all of these things. It was really tough. So yeah. Can we talk about what that even looks like in general both from a mom’s standpoint and as someone who may be considering becoming a sleep consultant and adding that to their life? 

Jayne: Yeah, sure. I’ll tell you what it looks like for me to support families as a sleep consultant. I think one of the beautiful things about consulting whether it be sleep consulting or anything else is you actually get to create a business your way. The way I support families and the way my clients are supported by me might look entirely different than what others are doing. I don’t want to speak for anybody else, but what it looks like for me is families hire me because they are struggling in some capacity with their child’s sleep. 

This could be a four-month-old that’s still being nursed to sleep. It could be a four-year-old who wants a mom or a dad to lie next to them while they fall asleep at bedtime and then they’re up in the middle of the night wanting to come into their parents’ bed. It looks entirely different every single time. It’s the same, but it’s different. 

So what we do as sleep consultants or at least what I do is support parents through the process of teaching their child how to fall asleep and back to sleep independently. My personal approach, I like to describe as client-led which means I provide all of the age-appropriate options. I have no bias. I have no agenda. I have no dog in this fight other than I want to get my clients results and I feel really strongly that the best way to get my clients results is to support them through methods or techniques that most closely align with their parenting style and that feel safe and comfortable to them. 

If I were to show up and tell the mom of a four-month-old who is nursing him baby to sleep that they need to implement extinction which is also known as “cry it out” and come back in the morning, she might be really overwhelmed and intimidated by that and not feel like that’s the right way to approach the situation. Therefore, she wouldn’t implement it. She wouldn’t have success and then as a business owner, I also wouldn’t have success. 

So instead, if I show up and say, “You know what? If it makes you really anxious to just put your baby down and let her get herself to sleep, how about instead of nursing your baby to sleep, why don’t we just try rocking her to sleep and see how that goes? If that goes well, maybe you could have your spouse hold your baby to sleep tonight. Maybe we don’t even do so much rocking. We just hold her. If that goes well, then maybe you could put her down in the crib tonight and see how she does. If she starts fussing, give her some back rubs or belly jiggles and let’s see how that goes.” You can take baby steps. It doesn’t need to be 0 to 100. It can be, but it doesn’t need to be. 

But really, I pride myself on meeting families where they are and coaching them through methods that feel safe and comfortable to them and that’s how you get results. So that’s what it looks like for me. My clients get a written sleep plan that outlines age-appropriate daytime schedules, feeding and nap schedules, and bedtime routines. For older children, we talk about communication strategies. 

For a four-year-old who lacks the confidence to fall asleep independently, there should be a family meeting to discuss the changes that are going to be taking place and some role-playing and maybe getting onto a Facetime with their sleep coach– that’s me– and having a coaching session. I love talking to four-year-olds on Facetime. It’s so fun. Sometimes I send them videos. I give them a pep talk. I involve them in the process and get their buy-in and help them to understand that they are capable of this. 

Yes, it feels hard, but so does pooping on the potty and they learned how to do that and so does riding a scooter and they learned how to do that. Zipping their coat used to feel hard, but now they can zip their coat no problem. Falling asleep independently is just another thing on that list. It’s something that feels hard right now, but it’s not something that is outside of their capabilities so when we show them that they are capable and we empower them to try and then we set what I like to call a loving limit or a respectful boundary and we hold the line, they are really capable of achieving these new skills. 

I coach the parents through the process. I provide text message support. My role is to get them from point A to point B in a way that looks good for everybody. That’s what it looks like for me. 

Meagan: I love that. I love that you involve the individual who you are trying to help sleep with their parents. I know with my daughter, she had this weird thing. It was always around 2:00-3:00 AM. She would wake up and she wanted to be in my room. For us, we didn’t really want her in our room. We wanted her in her room. It took a while, but we talked about it with her eventually and she said she didn’t feel safe in her room. She just woke up in the middle of the night not feeling safe, but I was like, “What’s making you wake up?” There was such a journey there. 

So I love that you are involving the child, talking about change, and normalizing change because change can be really difficult especially for a four-year-old so I love that. I love that you talk about that. 

19:43 What to do when a child feels unsafe in their room

Jayne: Sure. Sure. A lot of things that parents do to make their children feel safe– the point that you brought up, a lot of parents, when children express that they don’t feel safe in their room, so then they bring them into the parents’ room, what they are actually doing, they are trying to make their child feel safe, but what they are actually doing is providing an accommodation that then exacerbated their anxiety because their room actually is safe. 

Meagan: It is. 

Jayne: There is nothing unsafe about the room, so when a child says, “My room feels scary or unsafe,” and you say, “Okay, come in my room. My room’s safe,” what you are implying is that their room isn’t safe. So really, the way over the hurdle is to hold the boundary because their room is not dangerous. It’s not unsafe. It’s not actually scary so by you showing them, “Actually, I wouldn’t leave you in a situation that is scary or dangerous,” that’s how you show them that the room is okay for them. 

Meagan: Yeah. We did. We talked about that. There was another situation, not even sleep-related where she connected it. She ws nervous for us to leave her at this place– it was a dance thing. I was like, “Remember, I would never put you somewhere that I didn’t feel was safe for you.” She was like, “Oh yeah.” She went in there and danced. I love that you talk about that. 

21:08 The life of a sleep consultant

Meagan: Okay, so now we know what it looks like from a sleep consultant to what we would be getting, but what does it look like to be a sleep consultant and how could a lot of parents who may be going through similar situations like you and I again, like different journeys– sleep consultant and doula/VBAC podcaster– but I really did. I went through a very similar stage when I quit my job. I was a businesswoman. That’s what I did and that was my title. So then when I became “mom”, even though I wanted to be like you and be on the PTA board and all of the things, I had a little bit of a funk that I went through. I needed something and then I became a doula and it wasn’t that my purpose as a mom wasn’t enough, it was that I just wanted something more as well for me. 

Jayne: I think our society makes it really hard to admit that being a mother doesn’t feel like enough. We have to justify it by saying, “It’s not that being a mom wasn’t enough for me–”

Meagan: See? Like I just did. 

Jayne: Yeah, we all do it. I point it out because I think it’s really important for moms to acknowledge that it’s okay to want to have a career and to work and there’s all of this guilt around if you’re not giving 100% of your energy and your thought process and your entire aura and being to your children, that you’re not doing enough. I just really think that’s unfair. Now that I’ve lived on both sides of it, I was a stay-at-home mom for four years and I still consider myself to be a stay-at-home mom, but I’m a working mom, I actually think there are so many benefits to having your children see you work. 

Meagan: Okay, yes. We have talked about this recently, my husband and I. 

Jayne: Especially for our daughters, but it’s good for all of them. I think it’s really important. I love that my children see that I’m doing something that fulfills me, that I’m following my passion, that I’m using my brain, that I’m being creative, that I’m being resourceful, and that I’m juggling it all as best as I can. Yes, my son is 11 and he’s in that tween stage. He totally rolls his eyes at me when if he says something to me. He hasn’t said, “Excuse me.” Maybe I’m reading an email on my phone and he starts talking and I don’t hear him and then I realize I didn’t hear him and I say, “Wait, what did you say?” He definitely rolls his eyes like, “Ugh. She’s working. She’s not paying attention to me.” And that’s where the guilt comes from. 

Meagan: I know. 

Jayne: That’s where it comes from. He and I have had conversations about it recently. “I understand that you want to be heard all of the time. A simple ‘excuse me’ will help.” And then also, “Remember that me working leads to me being happier and then me being able to care for you better, and also, it affords our family to be able to do things that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to do if I wasn’t earning money and one day, I hope that you’ll make the choices that you think are right for your family.” These are complicated things to think about especially as our kids get older to have these conversations with them. 

Meagan: They are. 

Jayne: I think it’s a good, healthy thing for our kids to see us working. 

Meagan: I do too. Yeah. We also have some of those eye-rolls or things where I don’t hear and we actually just recently talked about timing. “If you see that I’m doing something, or responding to an email, I really am not just on Instagram scrolling. I really am working. Hold your thoughts because I really am so excited to hear it. Hold your thought or say, ‘Excuse me’ or ‘Mom, I have something to tell you.’” Right? I agree, though. I echo your message. 

25:17 Sleep consultant qualifications

Meagan: So yeah, okay. Let’s talk about sleep consultants and how this could be born potentially for anybody looking for what we wanted. 

Jayne: Yeah. I think this is a good fit for somebody who is either really passionate about healthy sleep hygiene in their own home and maybe feels compelled to help others whether you are staying at home with your young kids or maybe you already have a job that you are not passionate about, not that you need to leave your job and be a sleep consultant, but I’ve actually had many people tell me– teachers, nurses, occupational therapists, accountants– I’ve had them tell me that once they took our certification course and they got trained and they started working as a sleep consultant, they actually started hating their other jobs less because all of a sudden they have something that they are working on that they are passionate about and they’re excited about. It’s lighting them up and lifting them up and they can just accept their 9-5 as something that pays the bills and they have health insurance and a safety net. That’s fine. 

Then they can understand, “Okay. This is what my 9-5 offers me and this is what sleep consulting offers me.” It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, but I tend to think that a good fit is somebody who is either already really passionate about healthy sleep hygiene for their children or it’s somebody who is drowning with their own kids and desperate to learn more and would like to use this as an opportunity to figure out how to reign it in in their own household, then hopefully get it straight and feel empowered to help others. 

A lot of women have enrolled in our program for that exact reason where they were really struggling with their own children. They came to learn for their own family and then to help others. When that happens, we actually love to pair these people up with graduates from our program so support them as they are sleep consulting. I give them the accountability, the support, but also the education to make the change in their own home and then one day go off and help others. 

From a perspective of growing a business and entrepreneurship, I think that entrepreneurship is not for everybody, but it is, I’m sure you can relate, so inspiring and exciting and invigorating if you can just trust yourself enough to give it a shot. I just think it’s so fun to grow something. I don’t know. I’m sure you know. It really is. 

Meagan: It is. 

Jayne: It’s scary for a lot of people. A lot of women tell me, “I would love to be a sleep consultant. I would love to support families, but it scares me. I don’t know if I want to put myself out there. I wouldn’t know how to do x, y, and z.” All of that stuff, everything is figure-out-able. Fear, I think, can either paralyze you and keep you stuck or it can be those nervous butterflies that really sort of help you soar. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Jayne: I love those nervous butterflies. I don’t let those feelings paralyze me. I use them to leverage my next big move. 

Meagan: I know. I mean, when I became a doula, I signed up and took the course. I was like, “Yes.” I started interviewing and so many people said, “Wait, you haven’t had a vaginal birth? How do you feel like you can even support me?” That comment would happen multiple times. That was already an insecurity that I had about becoming a doula, but I still had this fire inside of me that felt right. I easily could  have just been like, “You’re right. I haven’t had a vaginal birth and you’re right. I probably can’t support you. I probably can’t.” 

I probably could have quit there, but you don’t have to. These things are scary and if it feels scary, if it feels exciting, but it’s just a little too nervewracking, that probably means it’s right. That probably means it’s right. That probably means you should go for it. 

Jayne: I think so too. 

Meagan: Right? I’m so happy that I did continue pushing forward. Yes, eventually I had my vaginal birth, but I was very capable of supporting and so are you, Women of Strength. If this is resonating to you, don’t let fear get you because I can’t remember. I was just watching an HGTV show the other day and they were talking about if you don’t go for it, you’re going to miss 100% of the time. 

Jayne: No, that’s one of my favorite quotes. I think it’s Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan. I think the quote is, “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” 

Meagan: That’s it. That’s exactly what they said. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. It’s like, okay. What are you going to have to lose if it doesn’t work out? All right, cool. I did it. I showed myself I tried. Great. Move on to the next thing. But anyway, I love that. I love that quote. I was like, “Yes. Yes.” That resonated so much. 

30:36 Ages covered in Jayne’s course

Meagan: Okay, so let’s talk a little bit more about your course and sleep training. What age range does it cover? What age range and who does it really apply to? Because I mean, luckily I have a 12-year-old who sleeps, but would it apply for a 12-year-old or is it more for the younger age?  

Jayne: Yeah, the course is geared towards infants, toddlers, preschoolers, I say early elementary-aged kiddos. There is really not a hard stopping point because if you think about it, anything you would do with a 4-year-old, why couldn’t you do it with a 5-year-old, and anything you do with a 4-year-old, why couldn’t you do it with a 6-year-old? 

I will say that the oldest children that I tend to have success with are about 7 or 8. It’s not that 9, 10, and 11-year-olds can’t learn to sleep independently, they can. The problem with working with families that have older children is that if parents haven’t set a boundary around sleep by the time their children are 9, 10, or 11 years old, it’s unlikely that they are going to just because they start working with me. I feel that they feel they are just too far gone and they just feel like this is something that we are never going to be able to change. It is absolutely something that they could change. It just feels, I think, too hard for them. It’s too deeply ingrained in their family culture to change it and that’s okay but it’s not that it can’t be changed. 

The course covers the science of sleep. We talk about REM cycles and circadian rhythms. The course covers the science of sleep, and safe sleep. We practice safe sleep per the American Academy of Pediatrics safe sleep guidelines. We teach sleep as it relates to different developmental ages and stages. What happens at 3-4 months that can impact sleep negatively? What happens at 8 or 9 months that can impact sleep negatively? What happens at 2.5 that can impact sleep? 

At all different developmental ages and stages, things happen that can get in the way of sleep and how do we recognize those developmental milestones and make sure that we are keeping sleep on track regardless of those things happening? 

We teach all the different sleep training techniques as I mentioned. Everything from really gradual and parent-present strategies all the way through extinction and everything in between. We teach toddler, preschooler, and big kid appropriate strategies and communication techniques. We talk about unique circumstances of how to support moms of multiples, how to support moms who are struggling with perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, and how to support families that have kiddos with special needs. We have an entire section on supporting kids with autism. We have training on how to talk to parents about travel, illness, teething– all the stuff that just comes up. 

And then we teach you communication strategies so how to talk to moms about crying and how to help ease their fear and anxiety over their children being temporarily frustrated or upset about the changes that you are making. We will teach you how to write a sleep plan so that all of your thoughts and advice are really organized in a way that can be easily received and well-received by really tired parents. 

And then we teach you how to successfully grow a business. We teach you how to get on a phone call with a tired mom and talk to her in a way that makes her feel comfortable with you. We talk about marketing. We talk about mindset work which I think is so important. So many new entrepreneurs’ minds are not in the proper place for them to thrive and grow as entrepreneurs. We talk a lot about shifting our own mindset so we can position ourselves to thrive just as we help our clients do the same. 

And then at the end, there is a resource library, a whole bank of articles and studies and evidence and all sorts of good stuff so that when a mom says to you, “I think my baby is teething and that’s why he’s not sleeping,” we actually have some articles with really good studies linked to the fact that teething really isn’t a major disrupter to sleep the way that parents think that it is. 

So when somebody comes to you and says, “I want to sleep train, but my sister-in-law is telling me that my baby is just going to cry until he is tortured and traumatized and damaged,” we have links to articles and studies that literally prove that that is actually not at all the case. It’s an entirely evidence-based course, science-backed and my goal is for our students to graduate feeling really confident and empowered to support families at the highest level to get them the results that they desire. 

Meagan: I love that so much. So if you are a parent wanting to take the course, you can take the course. It’s also going to teach you how to be a sleep consultant and then also, at the tail end of it or through the whole thing, get to also learn how and maybe if you’re interested in it. I feel like experience a lot of the time is where we find our passion. Sometimes that goes hand in hand. I think you mentioned that earlier so they can learn how to take off and do their own business. 

36:00 How to find a sleep consultant

Meagan: What does it look like to one, find a sleep consultant as a parent and two, as a mom who wants to maybe become a sleep consultant or a doula– we have a lot of doulas on this podcast that listen maybe wanting to add to their services– what does that look like to find this course and find a sleep consultant to help? 

Jayne: To help each other– I understand what you are asking. Yeah, it’s interesting. It depends on how– some parents are very plugged into what’s going on in parenting and some parents are very unplugged. Either way is fine. I think that there are pros and cons to both, but if you’re hanging out on Instagram and you have a young baby, I bet the algorithm is showing you sleep consultants and how to sleep train your baby or that sleep training is terrible. It’s showing you all of that stuff. If you’re totally unplugged, then maybe you don’t even know that sleep consultants exist. I actually hear that a lot. 

Sometimes when I am connecting with people who are interested in starting their own business from home and they don’t really know what type of business they would want to start and I just share with them what I do, they will say, “That is so interesting. I have three kids and I’ve never even heard of a sleep consultant. I didn’t know that was a thing.”

Meagan: That was me. That was me. I didn’t know. I didn’t know I could get help. 

Jayne. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that it looks different for everybody. As a sleep consultant, I actually just landed my most recent client. It was a referral from a pediatrician. I live in Baltimore, Maryland and a pediatrician in Great Neck, New York, shared my name. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Jayne: Yeah. How exciting is that? Because our businesses are entirely virtual or at least mine is. I work with families all over the country and all over the world and here a pediatrician in Great Neck is recommending me to her patients which is amazing.

Meagan: I love that. So awesome. 

Jayne: I think that some pediatricians are recommending sleep consultants which I can totally understand why. Pediatricians have 10 or 15 minutes with you and they are trying to get a full deep-dive into how your child is doing. One of the questions they always ask is, “How is your baby sleeping” or “How is your child sleeping?” If the answer is, “Terribly,” they don’t really have an hour to go into all of the different options for how to help you fix that and they certainly aren’t available to help support you through it. 

They tend to be very pro-sleep consultants. They will refer out to us because they know that we are helping their patients in a way that they do not have the capacity to support. Pediatricians are a great referral source both for parents and for sleep consultants. I have partnered up with mental health professionals, therapists, and also not just mental health professionals, but occupational therapists, physical therapists, and speech/language pathologists. I get referrals from a family photographer, one of those photographers who takes those beautiful little newborn shoots. Mom troops into her studio exhausted complaining about how they were up all night and she says, “Oh, let me give you a business card for my friend who is a sleep consultant.” 

So I get referrals that way. I think for parents to connect with a sleep consultant, the best way is to ask other parents if they’ve received this type of help and if they have the name of somebody they know. Of course, Facebook groups are a great resource for connecting with others who can help you in some capacity. But really, just talking to people. I think what we do is a service-based business. It’s all based on relationships and personal connections. Most of my business comes to me by way of former clients of mine sharing my name with their circle and their network of friends. 

Meagan: Word of mouth. 

Jayne: Yeah, word of mouth so if you are a mom who is struggling, ask your mom friends if they have sought help in this area or if they know anybody who has sought help. Ask your therapist, your pediatrician, or your OB/GYN. A couple of weeks ago, I was out to dinner with my husband’s friend who is an OB/GYN. I was telling him what I do and he was like, “Oh, I could blow up your business in a hot second.” I’m actually really busy so I was like, “Please don’t.” 

Meagan: You’re like, “Yes. Do that, please.” Oh, you were like, “No.” 

Jayne:  Yeah, I’m actually pretty busy so I was like, “Actually, please don’t,” but it just goes to show that he didn’t have a sleep consultant that he was referring, so there is so much room for growth for sleep consultants to be connecting with professionals that could blow up our businesses. We just have to get out there and connect with those people. 

Same with parents. If you don’t know where to seek help, ask a friend. Ask a professional. Ask your postpartum doula and somebody will have the answer for you. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. That’s how doulas work too. It’s word-of-mouth typically, then you’re like, “Oh my gosh, yes.” You find that personal connection. 

40:59 Cost to hire a sleep consultant and potential earnings as a sleep consultant

Meagan: What do sleep consultants usually charge for a parent looking and for someone again, I’m going both here. We have such a wide audience from parents to doulas that may want to expand or maybe even parents wanting to add this. What can someone expect to pay and then what can someone expect to make? 

Jayne: Sure, okay. Fair enough. I’ll speak for myself because I think that there’s a really wide range of services and pricing just like wth anything else. You can go get your hair cut for 19 dollars or you can get your hair cut for $500. 

Meagan: Yep. Yep.

Jayne: I will just give you my own numbers because I’m more than happy to share and understand that there’s a wide range of normal on both ends of what I charge and what I earn. I charge– I have two options for services. I do a two-week virtual consultation which is pretty comprehensive. It includes again, a written plan, a phone call to onboard, text message support for two weeks, and then a wrap-up phone call. I charge $750 for that service. I earn about 8 to 10 to $12,000 a month supporting families. So I don’t know. I support 10 or 15 clients a month typically. 

I used to support way more, but now that I’m more focused on supporting my students, I’ve scaled back on my client support. In addition to supporting families in that two-week consultation, I also offer what I call an “ask me anything” call. It’s just a 30-minute strategy session. It’s an information dump and I charge $145 for that 30-minute call. It’s really intended for troubleshooting. I don’t get on those calls with parents who have literally never sleep-trained their baby. It’s more for a baby who is already doing well, but maybe needs help transitioning from three to two naps or maybe it’s a 2-year-old who is going to bed just fine and sleeping through the night but waking up at 5:00 in the morning and parents need help modifying their schedule. 

That’s what it looks like for me. We have people in the program who are homeschooling their kids and this is a passion project for them, a side hustle, and maybe they earn $1000-$2000 doing this work. Maybe they are priced more at $500 and they support two or three families a month and then we have other people inside of our program or who have completed the program who have created sort of an agency model of sleep consulting and they are supporting families but then they also have two or three or four people working under them and they earn more than I do monthly or annually doing sleep consulting support. 

There’s also the option to support families in-home. All of my work is virtual so I can support families who live anywhere and anytime. I don’t have to physically be there to get them results, but a lot of doulas who enroll in my program actually prefer to support families in person just because they are so comfortable with that already. 

Meagan: Yeah.

Jayne: Their pricing structure is entirely different. They are charging either a flat fee for a certain amount of time that they are either moving in with a family or maybe they are just doing two or three overnights and then transitioning to virtual support. Maybe they have an hourly rate that they feel comfortable charging while they are there. For most of the doulas who take our program, the one thing I tell them when they complete the course is that they’ve got to raise their hourly rates from what they were charging pre-sleep consultant certification to post-sleep consultant certification because really, this education and this knowledge that they now have, the tools that they have to get families results are so much more valuable. 

So even if they are not traditionally supporting families as sleep consultants, just the knowledge and expertise that they now have warrants, in my opinion, a higher hourly rate. Some of our doulas don’t even necessarily practice as sleep consultants. They just use the credentials to justify higher income earning potential. 

Meagan: Their rate, yeah. Well, I mean, you really wouldn’t want a surgeon performing– you wouldn’t pay a surgeon a small amount just because– I’m trying to think of what I’m trying to say. You’re going to hire the professional who has the credentials and you’re not going to look at the pay because they have the credentials. It’s important. I encourage anybody looking to become a doula, a sleep consultant, a postpartum doula, or whatever to get the credentials and seriously charge what you are worth because you need to. 

Jayne: We have this conversation inside of our center for pediatric sleep community all of the time when our grads are getting started. A lot of the time, they are anxious to set their rates at a number that I think would be worthy of their expertise and they are nervous. I always explain to them, “Okay. Would you rather buy your shoes at Payless or at Bloomingdale's?” They all say, “Bloomingdale's.” It’s like, “Okay. Well, Bloomingdale's shoes are more expensive. They’re also perceived to be better and when you charge a higher hourly rate, sometimes what comes along with that is the idea, whether it’s true or not, that you are highly qualified and you’re better at what you do.” 

You need to command that authority in your business. You do have that knowledge. You do have the skills. You do have the expertise. Charge accordingly. 

Meagan: Yeah. You’re way better at explaining that than I am. 

46:57 Where to find “Becoming a Sleep Consultant” 

Meagan: Okay, so we’re wrapping up. We talked about what it covers. We talked about what you can make. We talked about how you can be helped as a parent and how you might find extra inspiration through your journey. Okay, so where can people find your course? Where can people find more support? 

Jayne: Yeah, sure. Sure. So if you’re interested in becoming a sleep consultant, I would say that the two best places to learn more about it would be my Facebook group which is called “Becoming a Sleep Consultant” and my podcast, same name– “Becoming a Sleep Consultant”. The podcast is a really awesome place to get a feel for what it looks like to go through the program and start your own business. You can hear stories of others who have done it– teachers, doulas, stay-at-home moms, engineers, and all sorts of interesting people. I think hearing the stories of others who have been through the program is really inspiring. 

I would say the Facebook group and the podcast. If you are interested in learning about how you can get support for your child’s sleep, thesnoozefest.com is my website for sleep support. 

Meagan: Perfect. And then asking around, asking those parents, talking to your community, finding the sleep consultants in your area. 

Jayne: Of course. Of course. I’m not the right sleep consultant for everybody and I have hundreds of sleep consultants that I’ve trained. You’re always welcome to connect with me and tell me a little bit about what you are looking for and what type of support you feel would be best for your family and I’m happy to match you up with somebody who I think would be the right fit. 

Meagan: Awesome. We are going to make sure to have the podcast and all of the links for your group and your website and everything all listed right here in the show notes below so definitely go check it out. Yeah. I even think what you said earlier, even if your kid is sleeping pretty well but you are kind of into that transitioning stage, maybe from a crib to a bed or whatever, I just think that everything you offer is so beneficial. I definitely highly suggest checking her out. Thank you so much for being with us today. 

Jayne: Thank you. 

Closing

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“If you don’t know your options, you don’t have any!”

April is Cesarean Awareness Month and we hope this month is one of information, empowerment, and love from us here at The VBAC Link to you. Referring to the amazing resources provided by the International Cesarean Awareness Network (ICAN), Meagan and Julie break down the mission of Cesarean Awareness Month. 

Whether you are a first-time mom, VBAC mom, CBAC, or RCS mom, there is space for all of you! This month is meant to not only reduce Cesarean rates overall. It is also meant to inform everyone about birthing options, hospital rights, and ways to make Cesarean births better. We need all of our experiences to make positive changes in the birthing world for future generations! 

ICAN's Website

Cesarean Awareness Month Toolkit

Infant Mortality Statistics from 2022

Informed Pregnancy Plus

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

07:03 Review of the Week

09:29 Why we need Cesarean Awareness Month

13:12 ICAN’s Cesarean Awareness Month toolkit

16:00 Ways to make Cesarean births better

21:20 Common reasons for Cesareans

25:59 Your hospital rights

32:10 The safety of home birth

36:52 Lower Cesarean rates = lower infant/maternal mortality rates

40:38 A message to the CBAC community

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. It is Meagan and I have Julie with us today. I always get so happy. 

Julie: Hello, hello. 

Meagan: We are going to be talking about International Cesarean Awareness Month. Now, this is sensitive. It’s sensitive. It can be sensitive. It’s a month, a whole 30 days or 29 days. I don’t actually know how long April is. 

Julie: April is not 29 days you crazy. That’s just February once every four years. 

Meagan: That’s just February. Maybe 30, maybe 31. I don’t know. 

Julie: April is 30 days always every year. 

Meagan: Is it? I don’t know my months apparently. 

Julie: Apparently. 

Meagan: It can be a long month for people and we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. But it stands for International Cesarean Awareness Month and it is a month that is truly just brought to create awareness around unnecessary Cesareans, around advocating for vaginal births after Cesarean, improving Cesarean recovery after, and really just spreading the word and getting the information out there because as someone who has been in the VBAC world before, we have been told many times that VBAC isn’t possible and Cesarean is a must. 

You know, Cesarean isn’t desired by everyone, and a VBAC isn’t desired by everybody, but it’s important to know the options. One of the coolest things is that ICAN which is a nonprofit organization created this mission and I’m just going to read it. Does that sound appropriate? 

“ICAN is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to improve maternal/child health by reducing preventable Cesareans through education, supporting Cesarean recovery, and advocating for vaginal birth after Cesarean for VBAC.” 

We are really grateful for ICAN. They do a lot of amazing things and I know that they were a big part of my journey. I mean, wouldn’t you say yours too, Julie? I think that’s actually where we might have met is an ICAN chapter meeting maybe. 

Julie: Where did we meet? Now I’m going to think. 

Meagan: I feel like I can picture you in a living room in a chair up front. You were very involved with the presenter and I was just there. 

Julie: Wasn’t it at your house? 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: Okay. Yeah, I remember that one. 

Meagan: It was at someone else’s house and anyway, that’s the first day I remember seeing your beautiful face. Crazy, but we love ICAN and we support them. Julie was just looking and they had a t-shirt. One of the things it says is, “You have options.” That is going to be one of the things that we are talking about today. 

Julie: Yeah. That was last year’s theme but they haven’t posted this year’s theme yet. I mean, we’re recording this in February so they haven’t gotten a lot of the information out yet, but I love last year’s theme. 

Meagan: I know. You have options. And you do. You have options even though a lot of the time we don’t feel like it. 

07:03 Review of the Week

Meagan: Julie, do you want to read a Review of the Week before we get going? 

Julie: I was going to say, yeah. I feel like we are already getting going. Yes. Let me read a review and then we will do the intro and then we will go. Hold on. Now, I’ve got to get back to it. Perfect. This review is from unhappyggfan so hopefully she’s unhappy about GG and not The VBAC Link. 

Unhappyggfan. She says, “Truy helped me achieve my VBAC.” She says, “I found and started listening to this podcast a couple of days before my due date.” Oh, that’s cool. “I was walking a ton every day to encourage labor so I just binge-listened to these episodes one after the other. My due date came and went and I got more worried about having a successful VBAC. I kept listening to these episodes while I walked for hours every day. Fast forward to 12 days past my due date,” oh, poor thing “when my water finally broke right at the beginning of a massive storm and flooding in my city. My doula was unable to make it to my labor and delivery due to flooding on her street and the stories from the women on this podcast truly acted as my virtual doula.” 

Aw, that’s sweet. “As I labored for 16 hours, I thought back to the many stories I had listened to and the words of encouragement and wisdom from the podcast hosts and their guests. I thought of things I had learned and learned as I pushed for an hour and then my son was born. I truly believe that listening to the stories shared on this podcast helped me to have my VBAC. I wish I could thank every guest whose words gave me strength, but I will just say it here. THANK YOU. This podcast truly means so much to me now. A must-listen if you are preparing for a VBAC.” 

I love that. Virtual doulas. 

Meagan: I love that. Thank you. 

09:29 Why we need Cesarean Awareness Month

Meagan: Okay. All right. I know the motor started and we were gently tapping on the gas before we started reading that review, but yeah. Let’s dive into it. So we kind of talked about ICAN and what their mission is, but Julie, when you hear Cesarean Awareness Month, what do you hear or feel? What does it mean to you? 

Julie: I feel like here at The VBAC Link, it’s always Cesarean Awareness Month. Do you know what I mean? We are always focusing on that. But I feel like I love the collective call to action for the entire birth community and hopefully, even the world to focus on this. I was just thinking about this and ICAN hosts this big month for awareness to rally for donations and pushes for things like increased access to VBAC and lower Cesarean rates and things like that, but I was like, “Okay. What more is it? What more is it?” 

I wanted to get into maybe a little bit more about why we need awareness about Cesareans. What’s the point? Why are we worried about this? Why are they worried about this? I really love that they have it on their ICAN website. It’s ican-online.org/cesarean-awareness-month-toolkit and I’m sure that will be updated for 2024. I will link it in the show notes, but it has a whole toolkit that you can use with all sorts of things you can do. 

What I really like about their page is that they talk about why we need awareness for Cesareans in the first place. I love the bullet points that they show. Researchers estimate that almost half of the C-sections performed could be safely prevented. The next one is, “If families don’t know these options don’t exist, they can’t advocate for them.” Obviously, we are huge proponents of that here. If you don’t know about your options, you do not have them. You do not have options if you do not know what they are. 

The next is, “Cesareans can be more or less family friendly depending on the practices and protocols of the facility and the support level of providers. Preventable Cesareans may be responsible for up to 20,000 major surgical complications a year including sepsis, hemorrhage, and organ injury.” I feel like sometimes we forget that C-sections are major surgery. They are a major surgery that comes with all of the risks that major surgeries come with. 

The last one is, “The future risks to birthing people and their future pregnancies and children are not even mentioned when we are talking about Cesareans.” What are the future risks to these mothers and their kids and their families? I feel like that’s the big need to protect our women and the children that are being born and to reduce the amount of people suffering from major birth complications. It’s just a medical safety issue. 

Yes. We probably should put a plug in here that we have literally seen C-sections save the lives of both moms and babies. We have seen it. We are not arguing that. We are not questioning that. What we are questioning is their frequent use, how overused they are, and how quickly they are jumped to for many reasons besides the true risk to life and health of the people they are trying to save. 

13:12 ICAN’s Cesarean Awareness Month toolkit

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so hard. I feel like there’s this line of– I think I still even have anger about how many unnecessary C-sections happen. I kind of want to talk about, okay. We have a large chunk. We are really high. 32% of Cesareans are happening and I want to know that percentage truly how many of those people didn’t desire it at all. I’m going to guess a large chunk of them didn’t desire it, but I’m also going to guess that a large chunk of those went on to have future Cesareans which again, is fine. But like she was saying, you have options, and a lot of the time, the options aren’t presented so if we don’t know that we have these options, we just keep having Cesareans. They might not be desired. 

Julie: You’re right. It’s true. I feel like everybody listening right now should go and download this Cesarean Awareness Month Toolkit because I feel like there is so much value here. It gives you so much information even when it’s not Cesarean Awareness Month. Just go download it. They have obviously links to social media graphics that you can share for Cesarean Awareness Month. There’s a t-shirt that you can buy to support the cause. You can become a member of ICAN. It shows you how to donate to the cause. It gives you social media calendars, Facebook groups, and templates for writing a proclamation to your governor or mayor. There is a press release that you can tweet and adjust to send to your local media outlets. There are instructions on how to invite ICAN onto your podcast. We should do that by the way. 

We’ve had someone on in the past, but it’s been a while. 

Meagan: We should. 

Julie: There are webinars that you can follow and listen to. There are ICAN chapters all across the world in 20+ countries. It talks about how to find supportive providers and supportive options. It gives you options. It gives you facts. It outlines things. It tells you how you can have a more peaceful and family-centered Cesareans. It talks about knowing your rights and ICAN and the whole organization there. It talks about how Cesarean can be a lifesaving technique and it’s worth the risks involved when it is a true lifesaving measure. 

It goes into so much, so much. Go download it now. There is going to be a link to the ICAN website to go and download this but I feel like it is so helpful for all birth workers and families to have. I am just really, really impressed with how thorough this toolkit is. 

Meagan: Yeah, me too. As I’m looking through it, I’m like, “Wow. This is amazing.”

16:00 Ways to make Cesarean births better

Meagan: Let’s talk about– okay. Their mission is to– they say Cesarean recovery and stuff like that. One of the missions here at The VBAC Link is that we want to make Cesarean birth better. So if you are wanting to have another Cesarean, let’s talk about ways that you can make it a better experience. We can make it a better experience by having more people in your OR and having your support people there. 

Julie: Like your doula and your birth photographer. 

Meagan: Yep. Yep. Having those people there so when baby is born and birth partner, dad or whoever is there, goes over with baby, you’re not just left alone. I mean, okay. You’re not left alone. You’ve got anesthesia there and stuff like that, but you don’t know that man or woman. 

Julie: Yeah. You deserve a dedicated support person for you and there’s just not a dedicated support person for you in the OR when your partner has to leave and go with baby. 

Meagan: Yes. One day in my life, I hope that I can somehow help that policy change because it drives me crazy. 

Julie: P.S. Layton hospital is working to get doulas in the OR and birth photographers in the OR. It’s a steady thing. You can get into the U with no problem as a doula and as a birth photographer because I’m also a doula. But can we just talk about the whole partner thing though? Do you know how many times when I have been in the OR or as a birth photographer, do you see the partner or the husband when the baby is born and taken to the warmer? This is what happens every time, I swear. The husband looks at the baby and then looks at their wife, then looks at their baby, and then looks at their wife. You can see on their face. They want to go with their baby and they want to stay with their wife or their partner. They are making a decision, then the wife inevitably says or the partner, the birthing person always says, “Go be with baby, every time.” 

Meagan: Yes, or I was going to say that the mom is saying, “Hey, when this baby is born, I want you to go be with baby,” but Dad is like, “Yeah. I want to be with baby, but I need to be with you. 

Julie: I also want to be with you. I know that probably having an extra person in the OR is not going to alleviate that sense of obligation to two humans at once, but I do know that I have had partners come back and tell me that they are so glad that I have been there because they know that their partner is being watched over and cared for more so than just what the nursing staff can provide and the OBs obviously. 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. So yeah, having that extra person, not strapping down our arms, right? That’s something–

Julie: I feel like that doesn’t happen too much anymore but sometimes. 

Meagan: Really? I still see it, but I haven’t been in a birth for a minute. 

Julie: Mm, in the OR. 

Meagan: I usually see one arm. 

Julie: That’s weird. 

Meagan: I know. So yeah, there’s that and then a clear drape if you want, maternal-assisted deliveries are really, really uncommon but I really hope that we can keep advocating for them and make a change to see them happening. They are happening in Australia and they obviously have pretty strict protocols and reasons for how and why and when, but it’s happening. It’s happening and it is up to us to ask the question and say, “Hey.” Maybe if enough of us ask the question in our Cesareans for a maternal-assisted Cesarean delivery, maybe someone is going to be like, “Okay. This is being asked for a lot. This is desired,” and maybe someone out there will start making a change. 

Julie: Sometimes, the way to make change is to keep asking for it. You might 1 of 1000 to ask for it before the change is made, but then with the next person, there will be change. I know that the next person getting the change and not you sounds like a bummer, do you know what I mean? But also, what if that next person is your daughter or your kid? So let’s help pave the way for future generations too by continuing to ask for these things. 

Do you know what? Every time I have a client, regardless of whether it’s a doula client or a photography client, I always ask if it ends up that they need to go back to the OR, I always ask. I know what hospitals are going to say yes and I know what hospitals are going to say no. I still ask even the ones that I know are going to say no because you never know why. A few months ago, I got allowed in the OR for a C-section as a photographer in a hospital that I have never been allowed in in the past almost 9 years now and even in the hospital chain. There is a whole chain of hospitals that is notorious for not letting us do that, but they let me in. The doctor and anesthesiologist were on board and it was fine and it was beautiful. I had this image that I took that is one of my favorite images ever. I sent it to the doctor and she is really happy about it. 

You’ve got to keep asking. Ask every time. You’re going to get a bunch of no’s before you get yes’s, but you’ll get yes’s as you keep working and advocating for it. It takes a lot of us to make change. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I agree. I agree. 

21:20 Common reasons for Cesareans

Meagan: Yeah, that also goes for asking for that extra person, asking for assisted delivery, and asking for music to be played. Always asking. Okay, they might be like, “No,” but if you don’t ask, again, you don’t know you have options unless you know the options you have. Does that make sense? I’m saying that backward. 

Julie: You are. If you don’t know your options, you don’t have any. 

Meagan: That’s it. If you don’t ask the question, you might not have the option is what I’m trying to say. 

Julie: Yes. Yes. Keeping baby, skin-to-skin, doing these things. We can make the Cesarean experience better. That doesn’t mean that a Cesarean is always bad or traumatic if we don’t have these things, but these are things that can help to make things better. 

Meagan: Yeah, so doing that and then also learning how to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. What types of things lead to Cesareans? We know that we have 4-5 most common ways that Cesareans are suggested or happen. One is breech. If your baby is breech, then you are more likely to have a Cesarean. Now, we do have things like external versions and Spinning Babies and chiropractic care and things that may encourage that baby to rotate. They may just rotate, but a lot of the time, we have providers just scheduling a C-section and that’s it because we are not seeing people having babies vaginally with breech babies much anymore which is heartbreaking. 

Maybe we are being told, “Well, you’re looking a little bigger and you’re close to 41 weeks so let’s just induce you.” Right? We’ve got due dates. We have breech fetal position. If you’re in labor and your body is not progressing at the timeline that someone wants it to, failure to progress. We have small pelvis. Maybe you’re at 10 centimeters and you’ve been pushing for two hours and your baby is having a harder time rotating, but instead of stepping back and looking at, “Hey, where is this baby’s position?” or “Maybe this baby is really high up and we need to rest and descend,” we’re just saying no. We’re cutting it off and we’re going to have a C-section. 

25:59 Your hospital rights

Meagan: Let’s see. What else, Julie? What are some things that you feel like we can learn to avoid Cesarean?

Julie: I mean, all of those things you said are great, but I just want to pull it in a different direction for some reason. I’m so sorry. 

Meagan: No, that’s fine. 

Julie: But knowing your rights. Knowing your rights. 

Meagan: That’s funny because that’s on this toolkit right now. 

Julie: I know. I’m staring at it right now, but I love where they say, “Consent forms from the hospital or provider are not contracts.” 

Meagan: I love that. 

Julie: They are not a replacement for true, informed consent discussion. They are not a replacement for a true and informed consent discussion. They are not. They are not contracts. You can revoke your consent at any time. No one is going to sue you because you signed the consent form. Do you know what I mean? 

Meagan: You can change your mind. 

Julie: Gosh, my mind is reeling right now. I feel like consent forms might be another way of coercion. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Julie: I really do. They are a way of coercing you into feeling like you are locked into this decision or you are locked into whatever consequences might come from that decision. But also, I feel like hospital policies are the same thing. Hospital policies are not contracts. Hospital policies are not an excuse to not have a discussion and get true, informed decision-making. Hospital policies, a lot of the time, are not set up to help the patient. They are set up to cover the butts of the providers and the hospital. 

I feel like when you are falling back on a consent form or when you are falling back on hospital policy, then that’s another form of coercion, of getting people of what you want them to do because it’s policy because you signed the consent form. 

Meagan: Exactly. 

Julie: Yikes. I can’t stand it sometimes how parents don’t feel like they can change their mind or how they don’t have all of the information and maybe they wouldn’t have made the same choices if they had all of the information or maybe not and it’s not anyone’s place to say what they would or would not have done. I’m not trying to vilify hospitals. I’m not trying to vilify providers or nurses or anybody who sticks to these policies and things like that because it’s not their fault. It’s the fault of the system that they have been born into. It really takes a lot, I think, for a provider and a nurse and an OB and a midwife or whatever to step up and go against the system. 

“Hospital policy says you have to have an epidural, but you can do just really do whatever you want. I don’t care if you have one.” There is a midwife in our area, a hospital midwife who says that to every VBAC patient. She’s like, “The hospital wants you to have an epidural, but you can totally say no. I don’t care if you have one or not.” I’ve never had a client there who has an epidural placed just because they are a VBAC which is a whole other episode I feel like we are going to talk about at some point. 

Yeah, anyway. That’s just where my mind was wandering. You have rights. Just because you are in a hospital doesn't mean you are in jail. You are not in jail. You are a human with rights and feelings that should be respected and talked to like an adult and not like a kindergartner who has to follow a strict schedule and go to recess at a scheduled time. Do you know what I mean? Anyway, sorry. I’m getting a little off-topic there. 

Meagan: No. I think it really goes hand in hand. Here are the reasons why Cesareans happen. I mean, there are other ones too. These are common ones. 

Okay, you’ve been pushing for 2.5 hours. Your baby is not making a ton of progress, but making slow progress. Your provider says, “All right. We’re cutting this off. it’s time. We’re having a C-section. It’s time. You have to have a C-section.” 

What are your rights in that situation? If you are like, “I am totally down for that.” Then, okay. But if it’s like, “No, I don’t want that,” but a provider is saying, “You have to. You have to. You have to. It’s time. I won’t do this anymore.” What are your rights in that situation? 

No one can perform a Cesarean, no one, unless you say, “Okay.” 

Julie: But they can manipulate and coerce you and tell you that your baby is going to die. You’re not in your logical brain. You’re in labor land so of course you’re going to do a C-section. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There are things like that or there are true emergencies. We don’t want to disregard those where it’s seriously true and to save you and your baby. But you can say no. You also can say, “Thank you so much for your time. I’m going to keep going. Can you get another provider in here? You’re fired.” That sounds crazy, but you can literally let your provider go in the middle of labor and in the middle of pushing. If it’s not working for you, you can let them go. You’re not in jail like she said. You can still make choices. It’s just so important. I love that you brought that up. 

One, know the reasons why Cesareans are happening, but then really truly know your rights most of all. It’s hard. It’s so hard.

Julie: Ideally— it is so hard. It is super hard. It is especially hard when you are in that position in the first place for one reason or another. But the best thing you can do to avoid getting put in a position like that where you are pushing and pushing and a provider wants to do a  C-section and now you have to fight for it is first of all, hire a doula, but second of all, don’t be in that position in the first place. Leave the provider. Surely there are red flags. There are things that are telling you that this is not a right fit and a lot of times, we hear people say, “Gosh, I knew I should have switched, but I didn’t.” Listen to that and honor that and honor things ahead of time because odds are by the time you get to that point, you’re just going to do the C-section. 

32:10 The safety of home birth

Julie: I hate to say it, but I’m never going to dance around the issue or tell you a lie but if you are there and you’ve been pushing, you can’t be the only one that wants to keep pushing. Yes, legally you can say, “No”, and legally, they have to provide care for you, but it’s going to be a circus. It’s going to be really hard to do that.

Then what happens to your body? Your body is stressed out because it has to fight then that is not conducive to the natural labor hormones. I don’t know. It’s a hard fight. I feel like going back to I really like that ICAN is highlighting home birth as a safe and reasonable option after Cesarean because one of their graphics from 2023 highlights that there was a 2021 study that found home birth after Cesarean is associated with a 39% decrease in the odds of having a repeat C-section. 39% decrease, you guys. 

Meagan: Pretty impactful. 

Julie: I wish that more people would consider home birth as a safe and reasonable option. We were talking about this earlier before we started our episode. I was watching this show last night. You can tell me if you don’t want me to tell you this. 

Meagan:  You can tell it. 

Julie: I was watching a show last night about mystery diagnoses where this provider is a doctor. She’s a legitimate doctor and she’s done lots of really cool things. She’s started outsourcing diagnoses for people who have these mysterious medical diseases to social media. She goes through all their medical records and she makes reports and she broadcasts it on a blog and then people send in videos from all over the world about what they think the diagnosis is. It’s really, really cool how she is using social media to help them when they are just baffled. 

There was this girl who has had 9 years without a diagnosis and it turned out to be this really simple thing that she just had to change her diet for. Anyway, I don’t remember the name of the show but you can message me and I can tell you if you want. 

The point is that this provider is a doctor so she’s been through all the schooling and everything. She said something that really stuck out to me. She said, “The goal of the hospital is to keep the thing that is trying to kill you from killing you.” I was like, “That is the goal of the hospital to keep the thing that is trying to kill you from killing you.” She said, “If you want solutions outside of that, you have to go outside of the hospital.” It just really hit home for me for birth.

I know you guys might get sick of hearing me talk about home birth because most women do birth in a hospital, but the hospital’s job is to keep you and baby alive. That is literally their job and it is their main focus. It is what they are going to be focusing on. It’s why we intervene so quickly. It’s why we rush to Cesarens so fast. It’s because it’s the easiest and fastest way to keep you alive. 

Now, out-of-hospital births also really love alive moms and babies. I’m just going to say that. It’s not different. The goal is similar, but their focus is not on keeping the thing from killing you. Outside of the hospital, the goal is promoting the physiologic birth process and trusting the body to do the thing that it’s made to do. 

Now, there are circumstances. I feel like we have to say this every time because there are circumstances where out-of-hospital birth is not a safe option for some people. There is a time when labor just needs a transfer to a hospital for additional care. But when the focus on out of the hospital, promoting the physiological birth experience and trusting the body versus the hospital where they are trying to focus on keeping you alive, you’re going to have completely different levels of care. 

Those levels of care sometimes do more harm than good which is why out of hospital, when you’re going for a birth after Cesarean out of hospital, your chance of having a C-section is significantly lower. I say significantly in the literal way by the study but also in the way we all think of it. 39% decrease in Cesarean is a huge deal. How are we thinking about birth? How are we addressing it in-hospital and how are we addressing it out-of-hospital? 

Not everyone is eligible for out-of-hospital birth and it’s unfortunate that not everyone has those options, but for women with healthy pregnancies without complications, it is a reasonable option and it’s worth looking into even if you just rule it out. There is my home birth soapbox. 

36:52 Lower Cesarean rates = lower infant/maternal mortality rates

Julie: What are we talking about? Cesarean Awareness Month, yeah. 

Meagan: My home birth soapbox. Home birth can be an amazing option. It can obviously reduce the chances of things like interventions and even Cesareans that are unnecessary and pushing those things on people. Typically, I feel like my clients who are in home births really do feel this sense of– I don’t know if awareness is right. Connection, maybe. They are more connected with their labor, their birth, and their team. 

I’m not saying people in the hospital aren’t connected with their team or their labor or anything. 

Julie: It’s so different. 

Meagan: It’s different. It is. It’s very different and until you’ve experienced or if you’ve experienced it, you know what we are talking about. There is something different and it’s very unique. 

Julie: One more thing, sorry, and then I promise I will close it off. 

Meagan: No, you’re just fine. 

Julie: I really like in here– I think it’s worth pointing out because I’m sure there are going to be a lot of people cringing about what I just said about how the goal is to keep the thing from killing you. It’s pretty well-known now. The United States has one of the highest infant and maternal mortality rates in the developed world. The highest in the developed world. Okay? But we have also the highest number of C-sections. One of the highest numbers of C-sections. Okay? 

I love one of these Cesarean Awareness Month graphics from ICAN states that most places that successfully reduce maternal mortality have a lower Cesarean delivery rate. I’m not just spurting out garbage, you guys. There is information and there is information and statistics and evidence to support that higher Cesarean rates do not equal safer births. Higher intervention rates do not equal safety for mom and baby. It’s all over the place and I really love it since 2020 especially how there has been more information and more research coming out supporting the safety of home birth and home birth after Cesarean. It’s just wild how much the medical system– or not the medical system as much as the people who do these reviews and systemic reviews are getting on board with showing the safety there. I’m not just talking about my anecdotal views as a birth worker. I’m talking about actual evidence for these things. 

I’m going to read that again. “Most places that successfully reduce maternal mortality have lower Cesarean delivery rates.” It’s science. It’s just science. 

Meagan: It’s science. 

Julie: It’s science. Okay, now I’m done. 

Meagan: Okay, it was back in November 2023 and it says, “Infant mortality in the United States provisional data from 2022 period linked/infant death file.” Now, this is going to be a lot but I’m going to have Paige, our amazing transcriber– 

Julie: Love Paige. 

Meagan: –and poster of our podcast put this in the show notes for you guys. If you want to go there and read a little bit about where things have gone, it breaks it down between the methods, the gestational age, the maternal race, infant sex, state of residence, maternal age, leading causes of death, and more. It’s got a lot of studies and things like that and a lot of stats that could maybe be scary actually to find out, but also nice to know the information. We’ll have that in the show notes. 

40:38 A message to the CBAC community

Meagan: Then next on the goal of ICAN’s mission is to help advocate for VBAC. I think this is one of the areas that a lot of the times our amazing CBAC community struggles with. I do not mean this in any– I don’t mean to say this rudely, but a lot of moms who have had Cesarean birth after Cesarean dislike April because of this. I feel like I see it every year. It’s a very tender topic and very hard. I mean, I’m going to always– for some reason, the radical acceptance episode that we did relates to so many things, but a lot of the time, we have unprocessed trauma, unprocessed guilt– guilt is a really big one. There is a lot to unpack and a lot of the time, that is not all processed or unpacked, and then April comes around and we’re like, “Ugh. Everybody is advocating for VBAC when I wanted a VBAC too but I didn’t have a VBAC. I didn’t have that option or I didn’t feel like I had that option” or whatever. 

There are so many things. “My body couldn’t do it. I tried but it didn’t work” or “I couldn’t find the support despite looking for provider after provider.” I mean, there are tons of reasons why people have CBACs. I mean, I am a CBAC mom myself. I don’t know if anybody knows that, but I am. I’ve had two Cesareans and I did want a VBAC. I was going for a VBAC and I ended in a Cesarean. 

Now, I didn’t want that Cesarean at all, not even close. That was not what I wanted. But I had it and I tried to make the best of it. It was a healing experience. I am grateful for that Cesarean which a lot of people don’t understand how I could possibly be grateful for the birth that I didn’t desire, but that’s something that I truly am. 

Julie: You had to work for it though. You didn’t just get to be grateful. You had to work for that. 

Meagan: Really, truly work, and let me tell ya. I was still working pregnant with my third. Really, I was reading my op reports. I was so frustrated. I was bawling. I was like, “Why? Why did this happen? This was not what I wanted. Why didn’t anyone tell me?” There were so many things so I get kind of wanting to feel angry about your unprocessed birth or your undesired outcome. I will promise you that in time– it might take years– it can come. It can. This healing can come and you can see Cesarean Awareness Month as a positive thing but also be an active participant in knowing that not only is it to help promote vaginal birth after Cesarean and lower the Cesarean rate, it’s also to make Cesarean birth better. 

Julie: And safer. 

Meagan: And not have traumatic Cesareans as often and to support the CBAC as well. So I don’t know. I feel like I’m talking in circles. I don’t know how to say it, maybe, but my message to you is if you are struggling with Cesarean Awareness Month and if you are hating to see all of the posts and all of the things saying, “Yes, I got my VBAC” and “Yes, vaginal birth is better” or whatever. We see those all in the month of April. It’s mid-April and again, we are recording this in February. I mean, I guarantee you that we’ve seen at least a dozen of these types of posts at this point when this is aired. Try your hardest to step back and also find self-healing within yourself so these months don’t trigger you. 

April doesn’t have to be a triggering month. It can be an empowering, motivational month to stand up and be like, “Hey. I didn’t want that C-section either. It’s not what I desired, but here I am and I am here to help people know their options for Cesarean and have a better outcome and reduce the Cesarean rate,” because yeah. I didn’t want it either. Okay. I don’t really know. I maybe am just off-base, but I just feel so passionately about our CBAC community too and I know. I see them. I see them struggle through April. If you are listening, I don’t want you to struggle. I want you to hear a different message when you see Cesarean Awareness Month. 

Julie: I agree. I agree because it’s hard. There is space for all of us here. There is space for all of us. Do you know what? Maybe, in April if you are really triggered with all of the Cesarean Awareness Month things, maybe the best thing you can do for your mental health is mute everything before they are talking about C-sections and VBACs and everything. Maybe you leave the group. Maybe you unfollow the page and then come back when it’s a healthier time for you. Maybe that’s the thing that you can do to love yourself the most if you’re not in the space to confront your triggers head-on. Maybe that’s the best thing for you and that’s okay. It’s okay to create space for yourself to grieve and heal and mourn that loss no matter what form that takes. 

But when you’re in a more healthy spot, we absolutely want you to come back here and rally for us more. Rally with us, not for us. Rally with us more to improve access to better care options for our pregnant people to make Cesareans safer, to allow other support people in the OR, to increase evidence-based practices in hospitals, and things like that. It’s just more than just about reducing the overall Cesarean rate. It’s about so much more than that. We love you here. I mean, there is space for you here and we have all been there. We’ve all been there. Some of us are still in that journey and that’s okay. We’re all in all different spots of our journey and yeah. There’s space for you and we love you. But if you also have to take a step back for a little while, we still love you and we honor that journey and we honor that part of you. 

Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. Okay. We will leave this here and we will let you know right now. We love you. Just like she said, we honor your journey. We support you. Let’s rally together. This month, let’s build each other up and let’s spread the information, and let’s talk about our stories, and let’s talk about how someone else can have a better experience based on learning. Download the toolkit. Check out the links right here in the show notes and Happy Cesarean Awareness Month. 

Closing

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Hayley joins the show today sharing her breech Cesarean and unmedicated hospital VBAC stories. Meagan and Hayley dive deep into the pros and cons of getting an epidural and why providers tell women so many different things when it comes to epidurals and VBAC!

While Hayley had the dreamiest birth she could have imagined and everything went according to plan, her postpartum experience with prolapse was not something she was prepared for. Hayley shares her symptoms, what she wished she knew, and what she has done since to recover and feel like herself again. 

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:47 Just-in-case epidural

04:16 Dr. McGuire’s insight on epidurals

08:42 Using an epidural as a tool

10:44 Hayley’s first pregnancy and birth

12:00 Doing VBAC research before pregnancy

13:51 Hayley’s second pregnancy

18:15 Labor begins

20:16 Going to the hospital

24:20 Pushing

27:05 Hayley’s prolapse experience

32:01 Symptoms of uterine prolapse

35:29 Prolapse can happen

Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. You guys, I am excited about today’s episode. I love talking about VBAC obviously, but specifically, we are going to talk a little bit about unmedicated versus medicated. Our friend, Hayley, from North Carolina has had a beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC so I want to also talk about the opposite side of that and talk about medicated VBAC. 

We have so many people in our community that I see type, “I want a VBAC, but I don’t want to go unmedicated and my doctor says I have to. I can’t have an epidural” or the total flipside of that where, “I really want an unmedicated VBAC, but my doctor says I can’t go unmedicated. I have to have the epidural.” Did I just say that correctly, Hayley? 

Hayley: Yes, yeah. 

Meagan: It’s either one or the other. We’ve got providers telling people they can’t have an epidural or they have to have an epidural. So I wanted to just talk a little bit today before we get going on those two topics. 

First of all, let’s talk about unmedicated birth. Hayley and I are living proof today. We are on this episode that unmedicated VBAC is 100% possible, achievable, and safe. A lot of those providers come out and say that they can’t go unmedicated because they say it’s not safe. In the rare chance, we know that uterine rupture happens but it is rare. In the rare chance of a uterine rupture, that is where they say that is not okay. 

Or they will say things like, “But you wouldn’t want to be knocked out for your birth,” which is scary. I don’t want to be knocked out for my birth and I know people have. A lot of the time, it is not the most pleasant experience. Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk about that. 

Unmedicated vaginal birth is unmedicated vaginal birth. That’s what it is. I’m just laying it out there. Yes, we have a slight increase in uterine rupture. Yes. What happens if we have a uterine rupture and we are unmediated? 

A lot of the time, we are noticing that there are signs of uterine rupture. When we get an epidural and a spinal, we go back and have a C-section. Simple as that. 

Or if it is a true medical emergency, yes, there is that small risk of needing to be put under. Small risk and small risk equal risk of course, but it’s low. 

02:47 Just-in-case epidural

Meagan: What about if we have the just-in-case epidural? I seriously sometimes just want to sock someone who says “Just in case”. We don’t need to be placing an epidural just to have it ready to dose because guess what? In the event that it is a true emergency and we really do need to go in for an immediate Cesarean, it’s the same thing. We get knocked out. 

I know that these words are kind of big and harsh words. We get knocked out, but we get put under general anesthesia if we don’t have anything in our system. 

Now, let’s talk about an epidural. You actually have an epidural placed. It’s running. It’s dosed and we have a uterine rupture. Guess what? Women of Strength, more than likely, it still has to be dosed further because an epidural is not like a spinal. It’s just not. They have to dose it further. 

With my first Cesarean, I had an epidural. They had to come in, dose it to a deeper extreme so I wasn’t feeling my surgery and I had to wait. Right? We are still waiting. It’s the same thing. There is always a wait and it takes time. It takes about 15-20 minutes for any epidural to kick in deep enough. 

04:16 Dr. McGuire’s insight on epidurals

Meagan: Dr. McGuire wrote for Yale Medicine. She talks about this epidural and is it safe and how are they different. She talks about how they truly are different than they were back in the day because they are dosing them lighter. We know that. We have seen that, but we still have some pretty serious risks as well with epidurals even though again, they are smaller. There are blood clots, spinal infections, spinal headaches, them not working, and things like that, and blood pressure. 

I’m going to say as a doula, I’ve attended over 350 births. As a doula, I will say a large portion of any client, not just VBAC, who receives an epidural has a blood pressure dip. Even when they have a large amount of fluid because a lot of the time they will cram fluids in to try to help this, but there is some sort of blood pressure dip and baby seems to struggle when that happens. 

Then it’s the cascade– rolling over, move, move, move, move. Baby doesn’t recover or mom’s blood pressure doesn’t recover and we are off to an OR. 

One of the biggest questions that I think is a really hot debate in the medical world is does an epidural raise your chances of a Cesarean? Most people out there are going to say, “No, it doesn’t.” The studies are pretty low, though. I think in one study there were 2,000 people or something like that and they showed it didn’t. 

But I mean, from a doula’s standpoint, I know I don’t see as many births as these OBs, but I definitely see it seems to do that– the blood pressure drop thing. So is it safe? Yes. Do you have to go unmedicated if you have a VBAC? No. Do you have to get an epidural if you have an epidural? No. Do what is best for you. 

What she says is, “Those studies we know that have a higher concentration of epidural medicine was associated with an increased risk of Cesarean, though lower concentration we now use actually promotes normal, spontaneous vaginal delivery without assistance.” When she says assistance, a lot of the time when we have epidurals, we have vacuum or forceps assistance because we have lack of mobility. 

That’s what she was saying here. I want to make sure to provide the link and some other links on our blog for epidurals so you can decide what is best for you. But for now, we are going to get into a story of an unmedicated, vaginal birth. 

08:42 Using an epidural as a tool

Meagan: Okay, Ms. Hayley. Welcome to the show. 

Hayley: Thank you for having me. It’s really crazy to be on here sharing so thank you. 

Meagan: I talk about how it’s crazy to be full-circle where you are listening. You are preparing. All of the people in your ear are motivating and then here you are today sharing your story motivating others in your same space x, y, z months ago. 

Hayley: Yeah. It’s crazy. It really is a full-circle moment like you mentioned. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, I am so honored that you are here. I would love to turn the time over to you. 

Hayley: Sure. So yeah, I also love what you were saying really quickly on the epidural versus not. Full transparency, when I went into this, I definitely recognized that an epidural is a tool and I knew and wanted to prepare myself. If I am– obviously, birth is not pleasant. It’s not going to be a walk in the park. But I knew there was a difference between being in pain versus suffering. I really wanted to know that for myself. It if turned into that suffering, I wouldn’t have been opposed to helping my body to get my baby. 

Meagan: To the next point, yeah. 

Hayley: But there is a difference between being in pain and suffering. 

Meagan: As a doula, we talk about that a lot where we are like, okay. We are planning to go unmedicated. That is fantastic and then we talk about that pain versus suffering and that transition because when we are suffering, we start having things that come up later. We don’t think about it. We are suffering now, but postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and postpartum trauma. We have these things that are not worth it, so in the end, you have to do what’s best for you and keep you in that positive space and recognize pain versus suffering. 

Hayley: Yeah. Exactly, so I love that. 

10:44 Hayley’s first pregnancy and birth

Hayley: To start this whole story I guess, is back in April 2021, I had my daughter. She was breech. For me, I knew pretty early on that she was breech. She was so active. I knew that, “Oh, you are trying to flip in there.” I did all of the things. I did Spinning Babies and tried all of the things, but it was still COVID time so I just didn’t go to acupuncture. I feel like if it wasn’t COVID times still, I maybe would have tried more things. But with that being said, I felt like she was literally trying to turn because I’m like, “What are you doing? If you’re not flipping, then I’m not sure. Then you can’t.” I just felt in my body that there was a reason. 

I didn’t try manually flipping her or things like that. To help with peace of mind, I opted for a Cesarean even though that was the last thing I wanted. I’m terrified of surgeries and needles. I was like, “I do not want this. This is the absolute last thing I want,” but at the same time, I was happy that I could mentally prepare for that instead of it being sprung on me. And honestly, I feel like I had a pretty good recovery with that. 

At the same time, I knew for any future children, I did not want to have another C-section. 

12:00 Doing VBAC research before pregnancy

Hayley: So fast forward. We moved across the country when she was about 9 months old. I was definitely not pregnant yet, but we were thinking about expanding our family. I had already started researching providers in the area, joining Facebook pages like the ICAN Facebook group in the area and literally preparing even though I wasn’t pregnant because I just really wanted to make this. 

Meagan: That is important. 

Hayley: Yeah. I just did my research. I really, really wanted to be not in a situation where I’m like, “Oh shoot. I’m pregnant and now I need to struggle to find a supportive provider,” because unfortunately, it’s hard to find VBAC-supportive providers. I wish that wasn’t the case, but I feel like that’s unfortunately the majority. 

Meagan: The reality, it sucks. It’s stupid. I have a lot of words for that, but it is the reality. It is more often that it’s hard to find that true support than it is to find the opposite. 

Hayley: Yep. I remember I made a couple of appointments just to talk with people to be like, “Hey, how do you feel about this? I’m looking to establish care.” I remember I went to two different places. One was an OB and they did have some midwives there, but yeah. They were like, “Well, you can or you can try that,” and I was like, “Cool. This doesn’t sound like 100%.” 

I eventually found a group of midwives. I felt was a total 180 with the way that the care felt. Not that you can’t get that with OBs, but they were like, “Yeah. We’re going to do that.” It was just like, “Cool. We’re going to do that.” 

Meagan: I love that. You’re like, “And great. I was almost not expecting you to say that so fantastic.” 

Hayley: Exactly. I’m like, “Perfect.”

13:51 Hayley’s second pregnancy

Hayley: Fast forward, I then get pregnant with my second. I established care through them. I felt like the whole process was just so chill. Even just with anything, maybe it’s just the difference between your first pregnancy and second pregnancy where you are so nervous about everything with the first, but even the ultrasound that just felt very– with my first, they would really make me feel like they were really making sure, not that you shouldn’t make sure things are okay, but they just really made me feel like everything was so medical and things could go wrong or something. 

With my second, they were just like, “Yeah, baby is great.” Okay, cool. Perfect. So that was awesome and definitely not what I expected. Again, it’s a different office and a different state. It was a totally different experience and amazing. But I was definitely in my head the whole pregnancy. I did not want this baby to flip. I just kept doing everything I could throughout my whole pregnancy, really working on my mentality and my mindset. 

I found a doula. I went to a chiropractor towards the end of my pregnancy. I went to pelvic health, physical therapy, and I did all of the things because I’m like, “I want to do everything that I possibly can to make this happen.” That way if I didn’t, I would at least know, “Hey, I did everything and I totally prepared.” So mentally, that’s just what I needed. But yeah. I was definitely so in my head like, “What if this baby decides to be breech again? I would be so sad.” But luckily, that did not happen. 

I also fell on my tailbone. I hurt my tailbone when I was 4 months before delivery so that was really not great either because one thing that once I would get into labor, I had so much tailbone pain and that was just something that I was not expecting. 

So the pregnancy definitely had ups and downs. I feel like maybe you can answer if this is your experience too down the line with pregnancies, but I feel like your body just feels everything so much quicker with the second pregnancy. Like, “Oh, I’m already sore and it’s not even the second trimester. What’s happening?” 

Meagan: I believe that. 

Hayley: Yeah, so I found that really preparing is my number-one tip of doing your research, listening to podcasts, really get in that space of there was no doubt in my mind that I wasn’t going to be able to have a VBAC and I feel like that really helped me out when labor came because it wasn’t something that I even thought about. I can psyche myself out of I didn’t get worried. 

Meagan: How amazing is that? I feel like that goes again, it’s like the full circle of, “Okay. I am educated. I have the support. I have the body and the baby ready to do this.” When we have gaps in our circle where it’s like, “Okay, well I’m educated so I feel confident in my ability,” but then we have a provider who is wishy-washy and shutting me down or I have a family member who is like, “Oh, you are really making a bad choice,” or starts questioning us and placing doubt, but then we are confident in our body. We are healthy and all of these things. 

But when there are gaps, we can’t go into birth with that mentality. That’s something I wish for every single person going in to have a baby no matter what is just feeling confident and having that mentality of stress-free of the doubt. There are always the what-ifs and the wonders and every birth experience is different, but to not doubt ourselves or our ability and it comes with education, support, and all of those things. 

Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Like reading my books and listening to stories and being like, “Yeah. My body can do this. This is what people have done for all of time.” 

Meagan: Forever. 

Hayley: We can do this. Yeah. Definitely, I agree. If you don’t have every single one of those aspects, it just makes things so much harder on yourself and everything. 

18:15 Labor begins

Hayley: So fast forward, I never went through labor with my first, so I still felt like a first-time mom in the sense that I was like, “Will I know when I’m in labor? What’s it going to feel like?” 

It was February last year. I don’t know, whatever day it was. I guess it was the 22nd. I guess I was having cramping. I don’t know. They were really mild so I didn’t really think about it. I was working and taking care of my firstborn. 

Looking back, I’m like, “Oh, I guess it was maybe early labor.” But I didn’t really think about it. But I had pasta for dinner which I think is hilarious. I just ate pasta because fast forward, I am putting my little one to bed at 7:00 PM and I start getting really bad stomach pains. I’m like, “Is this from my dinner? Is my stomach just upset? I don’t know what’s happening.” 

I remember I had to have my husband finish putting her to bed. I was really not feeling good. I was like, “Okay. Am I just really not feeling good? Is this labor? I’m not sure what’s happening.” 

So I get in the shower and I’m like, “All right. Let me just get in the shower and see what’s up.” Then my husband comes back in and I’m like, “Hey, I don’t want to freak you out. I’m not sure if this is labor or not, but maybe it is.”

It’s getting closer to 8:00 PM or so and things are really starting to ramp up. I’m like, “Okay, this is probably labor.” I do remember having a thought of, “Shoot. If this is how early labor is and I’m already feeling it like this, I’m worried. I don’t know that I can do this.” I had those thoughts. I feel like I quickly got out of that, but it freaked me out. I wasn’t prepared for that. I know you can have those thoughts down the line in active labor, but I was like, “If I’m already feeling this and I don’t even know if I’m in labor yet, shoot. I’m in trouble.” 

20:16 Going to the hospital

Hayley: Fast forward, we started timing the contractions around 8:30 or 9:00 at night so only an hour and a half or so after I first had that contraction that I felt. They were already lasting over a minute long and coming 3-6 minutes apart. It got really intense really quickly. 

I was like, “All right.” We put on Harry Potter. I was like, “Let’s just try to get some sleep. Let me rest here.” Jokes on us. We did not rest. We did not get sleep. I ended up calling our midwives and our doula. They were like, “Okay. You should probably think about coming in.” 

We left our house at 11:00 PM. We live an hour from the hospital or 40 minutes. I was freaking out because one of the concerns I feel like everyone has is, “I don’t want to have my baby in the car,” but you don’t want to get there too soon. It’s one of those things. I really, truly believe though for me-- people say it’s nice to labor at home because you are comfortable and I do get that but for me, I wanted to get to my place of birth and I feel like that was a huge thing for me and my mindset. 

Once I got to my place of birth, I was like, “Okay. This is where I’m giving birth. I don’t need to travel.” I relaxed a lot. That was also something I assumed I wanted to be at home longer, but for me, I was like, “No. I need to feel comfortable and in my space.” 

However, when I got there, I was already 100% effaced, 0 station, and 7 centimeters. 

Meagan: Nice! 

Hayley: So I was already pretty far along. 

Meagan: You pretty much labored at home very well. 

Hayley: Yeah, exactly. So I was like, “Okay.” But I just really wanted to get to the hospital. I was like, “Get me to my people because I need support.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Hayley: So we finally get to the room. They had a bathtub which was great so they filled the tub up. I did have an IV placed but they didn’t have it hooked to anything. They just had it placed. What was annoying about that was they forgot to tape it when I got in the tub so of course, it fell out. So they literally I think, tried to stick me like 10 times. I’m not even exaggerating. It was a whole situation so that was not fun. 

Yeah. Laboring in the tub was great and on the toilet was great. But it really, yeah. Once I was there and had my people, I just felt like I was in the zone and everything seemed a lot better than when I was at home in my head just being like, “What’s happening?” 

So yeah. Everything moved really quickly but I wasn’t prepared for tailbone pain. Then I mean, I guess I probably should have. It was kind of in my head that this should be a thing because of when I fell, but man. The back pain and the tailbone pain so even things like the double hip squeeze that I thought, “Oh yeah, that’s going to help me” were like, no. 

Meagan: And sacrum, oof. Yeah. No wonder the toilet felt really good because you were able to sit without pressure open and release that. 

Hayley: Yeah, exactly. That was perfect or hands and knees in the tub because yeah. I couldn’t sit. It was a whole thing. 

I don’t remember honestly from when my labor started at home, I don’t remember honestly peaking and getting any worse. It just honestly felt the same. Intense from the beginning all the way until the end which was also something that I was not prepared for. I think obviously it is different for everybody, but that was something I was like, “Oh.” I was pleasantly surprised in the sense of at least it wasn’t like, “Shoot. I’m totally screwed later,” but also, it was intense very quickly early on and throughout. 

24:20 Pushing

Hayley: So fast forward, I feel like now it’s 7:00 AM. We get to the hospital at basically 1:00 AM. At 7:00 AM, I’m at 10 centimeters and I feel the urge to push so we start pushing in different positions. One thing I really wanted for myself was to not push lounging on a bed. However, with my tailbone, I felt like everything hurt so it ended up where we tried so many positions but I was kind of semi-reclined just because I felt like I needed that support. I don’t know. 

I told myself to be okay with ultimately pushing in the position that I “didn’t want” and being okay with that was something that I was like, “You know what? Listen to what I need in this moment and do what’s best.” So it was one of those moments where it was like, “All right. I need to just let go of what I was assuming and do what’s best for me.” 

We pushed for a while. It was 60 or so minutes which was– 

Meagan: That’s actually not bad for a first-time mom. 

Hayley: Really? I think it was 60, maybe 70 or so. But I do remember pushing being harder than I thought. That was not something that I had prepared for. I feel like for any mamas out there listening, prepare for pushing. 

Meagan: Yeah. Pushing is hard work. 

Hayley: It’s hard. I think that tired me out honestly more than the labor. It was pushing and I think it was half because I did not prepare as much for it and because obviously at the end of it, you’re already tired and exhausted. But yeah. I did not prepare for pushing to last as long either. I feel like I did know that, but mentally, I feel like, “Wait. This is still happening,” and it being intense. 

But then he finally was born and I just literally grabbed him. My husband was helping catch him, but I literally just took him right away. 

Meagan: Aw, cute. 

Hayley: It was great. So then I had this huge high of like, “Wow. I did this VBAC unmedicated. This is great,” then fast forward to postpartum, the nurse had kind of mentioned or my midwife had kind of mentioned, “Oh, you have a slight uterine prolapse.” I was just like, “I don’t know what that means. Cool.” They mentioned it as we were in the hospital and it wasn’t until afterward that I still was like, “No one is telling me what any of this means. What is this? I don’t even know what this is.” They were being so casual about it and I wasn’t getting any information. 

27:05 Hayley’s prolapse experience

Hayley: That was something that was frustrating because then postpartum, a couple weeks in when I was starting to have some symptoms of prolapse, I was like, “Well, no one is giving me answers. Nobody told me what this is. Now I’m postpartum feeling confused and in the dark.” 

It was really interesting to go from this high high of, “Wow. I had an amazing birth, successful VBAC, unmedicated” to now questioning, “Well, what did I do?” You question yourself. Did I do something wrong? Could I have done something differently? Why did this happen? Because no one else apparently had this which is actually not true. It’s just not talked about. 

So that was a very big part of postpartum that I was not at all prepared for. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s hard. Let’s talk a little bit about the symptoms that you were receiving. What symptoms did you have? 

Hayley: Yeah. So at the beginning, I felt like I was like, “I don’t know what this means. I’m not really feeling it. You just said I have a slight uterine prolapse. We’ll check that later.” Then you don’t go to your visit until however many weeks postpartum. So I was like, okay. 

But then when I was home a couple of weeks later, maybe two or so weeks, I was feeling heaviness or uncomfortable or pain a little bit. This doesn’t feel normal. I felt bulging in the beginning. That emotionally and mentally really got to me. I was like, “Why is my body doing this?” Then I would remember messaging my midwife on the little portal and they were like, “You’re really early postpartum. We will talk when we see you,” and no help. I’m like, “Well, that doesn’t help me now when I’m not feeling great. It doesn’t help me when I’m just like, yeah. 

They were like, “Most of the time, it will resolve” or whatever. It’s like, okay but I’m not happy right now. I’m not feeling great now. So finally, as soon as I did have my pelvic floor PT from before, I emailed her like, “Hey, is there anything you can recommend because I’m not seeing my midwife for a while? No one is really helping me out.” She was like, “Yeah, you can come in. I can’t really do an exam yet because you are still so early, but I can see you. I can talk to you. I can look at things and see what is happening.” 

So that was really helpful. What’s interesting is now, I’m however many months postpartum, but even I feel like a month or two when I could go onto my pelvic floor PT, she didn’t see any sort of uterine prolapse, but I think I have a slight bladder cystocele so I’m not sure where the uterine thing happened in the beginning of when I delivered and they had said I had uterine prolapse, but now, it looks like it’s just a slight cystocele. 

But what’s frustrating about what I’ve noticed with people with prolapse is a) the grades don’t seemingly matter in that you can be a grade 1 prolapse which I think technically I probably am, but if you are having symptoms, then let’s get that figured out because so many times, people would be like, “Well, it’s not bad” or “I don’t even see anything,” but it’s like, “Okay, well I am feeling these symptoms and it is mentally causing me– it’s making me in my head. It’s making me depressed. It’s making me upset about my body so let’s find someone to actually work on that with me instead of dismissing that was huge because yeah. I don’t have a grade 4 prolapse or grade 3 or whatever it is that you consider back, but if it’s making my day-to-day and me not be able to do things, then that’s a problem. 

Meagan: Yes. I love that you are talking about that. Women of Strength, at least here in the U.S., take way too long to be checked in on after having a baby. Six weeks is mind-boggling to me. A lot happens in six weeks. We have a lot of hormones shifting. We have a lot of recovering. We have a lot of things that may need to be addressed earlier on or that can start helping us with our mental health. There are so many things. 

I agree. If you are experiencing any type of these symptoms and your heart is like, “This isn’t good or this is affecting me,” reach out to someone. If you’re OB or your midwife's office is like, “We’ll see you at six weeks,” go to that pelvic floor PT. Review with them. 

32:01 Symptoms of uterine prolapse

Meagan: I want to talk about some of the symptoms of uterine specifically and what it is. Uterine prolapse occurs when the muscles and tissues in your pelvis are weakened. We know that through childbirth, that happens. We push and sometimes when we push longer hours or whatever, we can weaken that. 

But most people with uterine prolapse are a little older. They are 50-80 years old but it can happen in childbirth. So here are some of the symptoms. 

Leaking of urine, inability to completely empty your bladder– so you go to the bathroom, you stand up and you’re like, “Oh, there’s more,” or you start leaking more. That heaviness down there– so I had a cystocele as well. It’s so weird, but I remember wanting to sit on the corner of the couch or on the edge of the couch just to put some counter pressure. Do you know what I mean? 

Hayley: Yep. Yep. 

Meagan: That bulging, lower back pain which a lot of the time we are like, “Oh, back pain. We are nursing. We are recovering. We are hunched. Yeah, that’s normal.” Lower back pain is not necessarily normal. Aching or feeling that in your lower abdomen or down in your pelvic area and even severe constipation. We know that after childbirth, especially if we have an epidural or we’ve had a lot of intervention and stuff like that, constipation can happen. A lot of people get iron supplements and stuff like that to have that be lessened, but these are symptoms that truly need to be discussed and not ignored for six weeks because like Hayley was saying, it can start wearing on our mental health. I remember wanting to go out and walk around the block with my kids and just wanting to hold myself down there because it was so bulgy and achy. 

Hayley: Yes. 

Meagan: According to a study, it said that around 35% of women who have recently given birth suffer from prolapse. 35%. That’s a lot of us, you guys. A lot of people. The cystocele is when the wall between the bladder and the vaginal wall weakens so we can’t kegel. It’s not tight. It’s weakened so it comes down. 

Again, if you are experiencing any of these symptoms, know that it’s not necessarily something you have to just deal with. And yes, it will probably resolve in time, but you could also probably get some help sooner rather than later and help yourself mentally not worry about that. 

I have a friend who had a pretty high-grade prolapse. She ended up scheduling which is totally fine. She ended up scheduling C-sections for the rest of her births because she was so terrified of having that issue because she did have bladder and fecal issues. When you are peeing and pooping yourself, that’s not fun. It’s not fun, but you can get the support out there and you deserve the support and you do not need to be pushed off for six weeks. 

Make sure to follow your heart and get the help you need. 

35:29 Prolapse can happen

Hayley: Yeah, exactly. I think another thing that I would have loved to have known, I feel like no one talks about prolapse. When I went through my pregnancy classes or even just with the doctor or with my midwife, no one ever mentioned, “Oh, this could happen. This could be a complication. This could happen after birth.” No one ever mentioned that to me, so I was like, “I don’t even know what this is,” then I felt really alone like, “Why am I the only postpartum person who has this happen?” 

Meagan: Right or that’s just talking about it. 

Hayley: In reality, I’m not. 

Meagan: No, you’re not. Yeah. There are a ton of risk factors, but giving birth is easily the highest risk. Think about the amount of pressure that we are putting on our pelvic floor and our organs when we are pushing out a baby. I think that is another reason. I know you did this. I know you went to pelvic PT beforehand, but especially if you’ve had this in the past or you are thinking about this, talk to your pelvic floor PT and say, “Okay. Can you give me some guidance on pushing? Can we talk about how to try to avoid this?” 

I actually had another client– my other one was just a friend. I wasn’t her doula, but this was a client. She had some pretty rough PT things and had to go through a lot of PT. That was her thing and they said, “As soon as you feel this, I want you to change positions. I want you to push differently. I want you to breathe differently.” She believes that her work before and her work during and her different style of pushing helped. Baby came out really fast. She actually didn’t have any pelvic issues which was a really grateful thing for her because she had a pretty severe complication. 

Yeah. It doesn’t always have to be that so that was another message. If you have it, it doesn’t have to be like that next time or it doesn’t mean it’s always going to be like that next time. But know that if you are having that, you’re probably not the only one. 35% of us, that’s a large chunk of people. That’s right up there with the Cesarean rate. It’s quite high. 

Hayley: That’s true. 

Meagan: So know that it’s okay to talk about it. It’s okay to open up. You do not have to deal with it. You can get help and you deserve it. 

Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I feel like for a while, I just cried to my husband and he was like, “It’s okay to feel this way.” Stop blaming yourself. Really getting out of your head. You didn’t cause this and yeah. You can absolutely get help. If people are pushing you off, let’s find somebody else then who will talk to you in the meantime because your mental health matters. How you are feeling matters because yeah. Now, here I am getting close to a year postpartum and I’m feeling so much better, but it’s because I’ve been listening to my body and I’ve been working with a PT doing exercises and supporting myself and working on drinking water, not getting constipated like you said and all of these things. 

Again, were there times in my postpartum journey when I was like, “This is not what I want to be dealing with?” Yes. But you can absolutely– it does get better. If you’re feeling this way, it sucks and you feel like it’s never going to get better. I get it. I was there, but it really does and you’re not the only person. 

At the same time, I don’t want to scare people. This may not happen to you either for sure. But if it does, listen to yourself and you can get help. 

Meagan: And that’s the message, right? It’s not going to happen to everybody but it does happen and it’s important to know that you don’t have to ignore it. You don’t have to suffer in silence. You can get help and have a better postpartum. There are tons of things– I think I’ve talked about this– in my postpartum journey where I was like, “I got the birth I wanted, but I’m so frustrated that these things are happening.” You can also have both of those feelings. You can be super happy for your birth but also really frustrated with your postpartum journey or vice versa where you’re like, “I had a really crappy birth, but man, I’m so grateful for this postpartum journey.” You can have those feelings together. You don’t have to be quiet because you had the birth that everyone knew you wanted. 

Hayley: Right, exactly. It doesn’t diminish how proud I am of having a natural VBAC and doing that even though at times in the beginning, I did question that. 

Meagan: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s natural. 

Hayley: But looking back, I’m like, “That’s amazing.” I’m so proud of myself that I achieved a VBAC and had an unmedicated one. It’s just crazy to me. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing your story today. 

Hayley: Thank you for having me. I know I can talk a lot. 

Meagan: It was wonderful. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Though Karen did research and took birthing classes before her first baby, she didn’t realize how much advocating for herself could change the course of her birth. She wanted to be the “good” patient and told herself she could do without the things her body told her she needed during labor. Karen ended up pushing for over four hours and consenting to what she was told was an emergency C-section, even though the actual surgery didn’t happen until hours later.

Karen had some serious postpartum symptoms of swelling and difficulty breathing that were dismissed and even laughed at until things came to a point where she knew something was very wrong. She was diagnosed with postpartum cardiomyopathy, admitted to the ICU, and transferred to cardiac care. 

Doctors told Karen very different things about her condition. She went from being told not to have any more children to hearing that VBAC was absolutely safe. Karen discusses how her gestational hypertension came into play with the different advice as well. 

Karen found her voice. She advocated for herself. She knew what her body was saying and what it was capable of. Her labor was so smooth and she WAS able to birth vaginally!

Informed Pregnancy Plus

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

3:46 Review of the Week

06:27 Karen’s stories

08:50 First labor

10:47 Pushing for four hours

15:11 Karen’s C-section

17:43 Postpartum swelling and difficulty breathing

21:03 Fluid in her lungs

23:52 Moving to Florida and getting answers

25:13 Getting pregnant again

29:53 Advocating for a VBAC

32:14 A spiritual dream

34:34 Gestational hypertension

39:36 Signing an AMA

41:31 Going to the hospital

45:20 Pushing for 20 minutes

47:30 White coat syndrome

51:59 Symptoms of hypertension and preeclampsia

54:52 Tips for hypertension and preeclampsia 

56:55 Karen’s final tips

Meagan: Hello, hello. We are getting into almost our 300th episode, you guys. Every single time I’m recording and I’m looking at these numbers, I am blown away. I cannot believe that we have almost put out 300 episodes. Oh my goodness. I am so glad that you are here. 

I have this energy this year. I don’t know what it is. You’ll have to let me know if you notice it, but I have this energy every time I’m recording this podcast. 2024 is vibing. I’m vibing with it. I’m really liking it. 

We have our friend Karen and are you from Florida, Karen? 

Karen: Yep. I’m in Orlando, Florida. 

Meagan: Florida. That’s what I was thinking. So if we have Florida mamas looking for providers, this is definitely an episode. I feel like probably weekly we would get 10 messages asking about providers and Florida is huge so Florida is actually one that is really common where we are getting messages for supportive providers. 

So Karen, along the way, if you feel to name-drop some providers that are supportive, feel free to do so but we are going to get into sharing her story in just one moment because we do have a Review of the Week. 

3:46 Review of the Week 

Meagan: This is from louuuhuuuu. So louuuhuuuu, thank you for your review. They say that this is “very inspirational.” It says, “I knew I wanted a VBAC with my third pregnancy, but I wasn’t sure if it was possible. However, I knew I didn’t feel like being flat-out told, ‘No’ at the first appointment. Listening to the podcast was definitely the start of me really researching birth and looking into my options. I ended up with a successful HBA2C and I definitely don’t think I would have had the courage or believed it was possible without this podcast. Thank you, Meagan, for all of the work that you do to provide this information.” 

I love that review so much. I think that through time in my own research, I was told no. I wasn’t told, “No, no.” I was told, “Sure, probably yeah. You could VBAC,” but I never really got that positive vibe. I feel like this community that we have created with all of the people on the podcast and all of the people in the community on Facebook truly is something that I lacked when I was preparing for my VBAC. I’m so grateful that we have this community for you today. 

Thank you, louuuuhuuuu, and huge congrats on your HBAC, your home birth after two Cesareans. If you didn’t what HBA2C meant, that’s home birth after two Cesareans. Just like louuuhuuuu, you can too. Make sure to follow us in our Facebook community. You can find it at The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. Answer all of the questions and we will let you in. You can find out as well that it is possible. VBAC is possible. 

06:27 Karen’s stories

Meagan: Okay, Karen. Welcome to the show and thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, well your stories today. 

Karen: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It’s a little wild actually being on your show. I’ve been thinking about what I was going to say even before you invited me like, “What would I say if I finally get my VBAC? It’s crazy to actually be sharing my story now so I’m really excited to be talking to you today.” 

Meagan: Well I’m so excited that you are here and sharing your inspirational message. You know, going through your submission, it sounds so similar to so many of us. You went in for a totally planned unmedicated birth that switched to the complete opposite where you had a C-section. There are so many of us. When I was reading that, I was like, “I bet I could probably find hundreds of stories not even just in our own community that start out like that.” 

Karen: Yes. That’s why I love listening to your podcast so much because for the first time, I didn’t feel alone. But yeah. I can get into my story now if you’d like. 

Meagan: Yes. I would love it. 

Karen: Okay. So back in August– or, I’m sorry. My son was due in August 2023. This was our first baby and he was a little bit of a surprise baby, but he was very much welcome and we were excited for him. At the time, we were living in Virginia. My husband had just gotten out of the Navy and he was about to start law school. 

I did prepare for the birth but I don’t think I prepared enough. I took a Hypnobirthing class and the doula who was leading the class was super supportive. She was just like, “You’re just going to birth beautifully. I can just tell.” The midwives, the nurses at the practice were like, “Oh, you’re going to birth beautifully. I can just tell.” I just kept hearing that over and over again. My ego was a little over-inflated and I was like, “I don’t need to do much. I’ve got this.” 

I don’t think I was prepared enough. I didn’t know what I was really getting into. 

08:50 First labor

Karen: So when I actually started going into labor, I got there way too early. I got to the hospital too early. Like you mentioned, I wanted an unmedicated birth. I got there, I think my contractions were about every seven minutes. Now I know that I definitely should have waited at home longer. But everything seemed to be going well. 

I arrived. They admitted me. They seemed a little bit hesitant, but they were like, “Oh, well she’s in labor. Let’s just bring her in.” My water broke on its own that afternoon. Things seemed to be going well until the pain really started kicking in. I had a really hard time working through the pain even with everything I learned in HypnoBirthing. I still hadn’t quite found my voice yet, my mama voice. 

I couldn’t tell people, “Hey, you’re distracting me. I’m trying to do HypnoBirthing.” I felt embarrassed about putting up the sign outside my door saying, “Hey, HypnoBirthing in progress. Please keep quiet.” I just didn’t speak up. I was just trying to be a good girl and just listen to what everyone says. I heard so many times in different episodes being a good girl and just doing what I’ve been told. 

Meagan: Right. We are people pleasers. I think a lot of us are people pleasers. We don’t want to ruffle feathers. We want to stay in line. We want to follow this path that we are being told we have to stay on. 

Karen: Yes. I mean, I just didn’t realize it was something I needed to form as a mama to be able to stand up for myself because pretty soon there was going to be a baby that needed me to stand up for them. 

Like I said, during the birth, there were just so many distractions, people coming in and out, nurses, and visitors. It was too much. I did end up getting an epidural because I just couldn’t hold out any longer. 

10:47 Pushing for four hours

Karen: Around 2:00 AM, the labor and delivery nurse told me, “Oh, you need to start pushing.” I was on my back. I pushed for about two hours. I had some breaks but the baby was just stuck. For part of it, we could see that he was crowning but he just would not come out. 

During this entire time, no one really looked at me. I just had this one labor and delivery nurse. She was so sweet, but the midwife didn’t come by. The OB didn’t come by. No one really came by and I wanted to move into different positions. I felt my body telling me, “Hey, try this. Try this,” and they would tell me, “You can’t move. You have to stay like that.” 

I pushed for four hours. Baby was in distress. I felt fine but the midwife came in and told me, “You’re going to need a C-section.” This was the first time I had seen her. She told me. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Karen: Yeah. So she says, “You need a C-section. He’s not going to come out vaginally.” I didn’t know. I didn’t know what to do. I mean, I felt that was my only option. I got really upset. I started crying. I felt like a failure. I know now that I’m not a failure. That wasn’t it. But that’s how I felt at the moment and my husband was devastated. He was such an amazing birth partner and he felt like he failed me. I was like, “No. You didn’t fail either,” but at that moment, we just felt so let down that one, I had to ask for an epidural, and two that I was going to need a C-section. 

Karen: They told me. I don’t remember if the word “emergency” was used or not, but they made me feel like it was an emergency and it needed to happen immediately. When I look at the paperwork and all of that stuff, I’m like, “Where was the urgency?” Because the C-section didn’t happen until 10:00 AM. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s not an emergency. This is another thing that I’m going to be honest– it irks me because there are so many of us who are told it is an emergency. When we hear “emergency”, what do we think? Panic. Scary. Right? We divert into asking– divert. I don’t know if that’s the right word. We stop asking questions and we say, “Okay. Okay. Okay,” because it’s an emergency and we are told that. 

Karen: Exactly. 

Meagan: I think a lot of times, truly that we are told it is an emergency and that offers some sort of– it’s weird, but some sort of validation where it’s like, “But it’s an emergency, so okay.” We just agree and then we are grateful. We look at them in a way because it’s an emergency so they are saving. Does this make sense? I don’t know. 

Karen: No, it does. To me, when I think about it now, it feels like manipulation. 

Meagan: Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It can be. Truly, there are real emergent Cesareans. 

Karen: Agreed. 

Meagan: We are so grateful for Cesareans that can help us and those are real, true emergent situations, but so many of us are told it’s an emergency and then like you said, it’s 10:00 AM or they come in and they’re like, “We need to shave you,” and it’s like, “Okay, that’s not an emergency.” If they have time to shave you, talk with you, and leave you for four hours, no. It’s not an emergency. 

Karen: Exactly. So if I had known what I know now, I would have asked for my options, asked to push and change positions. There are so many things I would have done but like you said, I thought it was an emergency. I was treating my baby in danger. I need to do this now even though there was nothing wrong with the baby. There wasn’t. 

Meagan: Or you. 

Karen: Mhmm, exactly. His heart was fine. Everything was fine as far as I could see as far as I remember, as far as the paperwork says, so it doesn’t make sense anymore to me. But yeah. 

15:11 Karen’s C-section

Karen: My husband was told to dress in scrubs while they prepped me and then I asked the nurse to make sure that no one was in the room when I got back. When we came back to surgery, they wheeled me over to the OR and they were just checking to see that the epidural was still good. I could feel them touching my belly. I told them and that’s the last thing I remember. The next thing I know, I just hear a baby crying in the distance. I was waking up in a different room and there were just these two nurses chatting about their day. 

To me, it was traumatizing. I couldn’t even process what was going on and what happened. That was just so, so scary. 

Meagan: I’m so sorry. 

Karen: Yeah. Sorry. So then they wheeled me out and that’s where my husband and our whole family were waiting. I was so frustrated because I told the nurse I didn’t want anyone here. I knew I would be upset after the C-section and there was everyone in the room waiting. I also found out that my baby got passed around so I didn’t even get to be the first to hold him. That was so extremely upsetting. 

I told my husband, “I want everyone out.” Everyone left and it was just me and my husband and our baby, Luke. We were there for about 15 minutes before they started to prep me to move the recovery room and I was like, “Wait a minute. I thought I got a golden hour where I would get to be alone with the baby for an hour.” They were like, “Oh yeah, you can do that in the recovery room,” and they just wheeled me over. I get so sad when I look at pictures of that time because my baby is so beautiful. I love him so much, but I felt so drugged up that I couldn’t connect with him. You can see it in the pictures. I just look like I don’t know where I am. I’m in pain. It’s just not what I imagined that experience to be. 

Meagan: Right. 

Karen: I definitely felt robbed of an experience. I felt extremely traumatized. That was hard in and of itself, but I was trying to come to terms with what happened. It was just a very rough time in the hospital. We had some family drama as well so that didn’t help. 

Meagan: No. 

Karen: I was discharged less than 48 hours later which now I know is way too early considering the symptoms I was feeling. 

17:43 Postpartum swelling and difficulty breathing

Karen: My legs were extremely swollen. My whole body was extremely swollen. It didn’t even look like I had given birth because I was just swollen all over. One nurse even made fun of my legs and she was like, “They look like baseball bats.” She was just tapping them.

Meagan: That’s a warning sign. That’s something to think about. 

Karen: Well, I didn’t know that. 

Meagan: Well, of course, you didn’t, but as a professional, she shouldn’t be tapping on your legs. She should be like, “Hmm, was this like this?” 

Karen: I’ve told other medical professionals that story and they are horrified. They are like, “That was a big warning sign something was wrong,” but they discharged me regardless. I felt so completely unprepared. It was just a very bad experience all around. They didn’t have a lactation consultant working over the weekend so my baby was crying and crying and crying. He wasn’t getting enough to eat when he was breastfeeding. 

They were just laughing and saying, “Oh, all moms feel like that. He’s getting enough to eat.” Sure enough, my son was jaundiced and his pediatrician was like, “No, he needs formula. He’s not getting enough to eat.” He had a significant tongue tie so he was not getting enough to eat. 

When I got home, like I said, baby was starving. I’m not getting any sleep. When he does fall asleep, I can’t sleep. I remember explaining to different people like, “I’m having trouble breathing every time I lay down.” Everyone was just like, “Oh yeah. New mom, new baby. Totally normal.” 

Meagan: What? It is not normal to not feel like you can’t breathe. 

Karen: You’re going to love this then. At one point, I called the nurse hotline at the hospital because they gave it to me when I was discharged. I told the nurse, “When I lay down, I can’t breathe. It feels like I can’t breathe.” Her response was, “Oh, sometimes new moms don’t know how pain feels like.” 

I was just like, “Okay, I guess this is just me.” She was like, “Technically, we’re supposed to tell you to come to the hospital if you are having trouble breathing.” 

Meagan: Technically. 

Karen: Technically. So I was trying to be the good girl and trying not to ruffle any feathers and I was just like, “Okay. I’ll keep pushing through,” but the moment I realized things were not good, I was extremely depressed. I thought that I was going to die and leave my child alone. I was having horrible thoughts like that. Then I realized, “I’m starting to hallucinate.” So after three days of not sleeping, there was one incident where I heard my baby crying and screaming. I went over to the bassinet to look at him and he’s sleeping peacefully, but I can still hear him crying and screaming clearly. 

I’m like, “That’s not normal.” 

21:03 Fluid in her lungs

Karen: Once he woke up because I was trying to be a good new mom, so once he woke up, I packed myself up and my mom and I went to the ER. I explained to them, “I’m not getting sleep. I can’t sleep. Every time I lay down, I can’t breathe.” They were like, “Okay. Maybe you have a blood clot.” 

They took me back. They did an MRI scan and when I was lying down for the scan, I started taking these small quick breaths and the nurse was like, “Are you having a panic attack? What’s going on?” I go, “I can’t breathe.” She finally was the one that was just like, “There is something deeply wrong here. This is not normal at all.” 

I loved her. She really pushed to make sure that I got seen quickly. They determined that I was experiencing congestive heart failure. The way they explained it is my heart was not pumping strong enough I guess. It wasn’t pumping right so that’s why I was having trouble breathing because my lungs were filling up with fluid. 

They were able to give me medication. It was Lasix to help push out all of the fluid. I was kept at the ICU for two nights then they transferred me to the cardiac wing of the hospital. I was there four nights total because they just wanted to keep an eye on my blood pressure and this obviously wasn’t normal what was happening. My blood pressure was through the roof. 

That was a really, really difficult time because one, I was away from my new baby and then I had three different doctors tell me, “There is something wrong with your heart. You won’t be able to have more children. Your heart can’t handle it.” That was distressing because my husband and I dreamed of having a big family and we were thinking, “This might be our last child.” 

But weirdly enough, my OB– the one who performed the C-section– disagreed. I don’t like how he said this, but he was like, “Oh, don’t be dramatic. It was just a little extra fluid. You’re fine.” I was like, “Okay.” He said, “You can have a VBAC. You can have as many children as you want. You’re going to be fine.” 

I wasn’t a fan of him but that was interesting that he had told me, “You’re going to be a great VBAC candidate.” He kind of put that idea in my head. He said that the only reason my son got stuck was because he was 9 pounds, 15 ounces so basically a 10-pounder. I was like, “Okay.” I didn’t know what I know now, but that’s the reason they gave me. 

23:52 Moving to Florida and getting answers

Karen: Eventually, we moved to Florida because I’m from Florida so I felt more comfortable with the medical care there. I just kept finding out different ways that I was failed by the medical system back in Virginia. My primary doctor determined that I had postpartum depression. My son was already two years old when she discovered that. It was just like, “Oh, okay.” Here’s some medication. Now I feel like myself again. 

It made me realize, “Okay, what else do I need to look into?” I got a cardiologist. She was saying, “There is nothing wrong with your heart.” She can’t definitively say because she wasn’t there, but she was like, “They put too many fluids in your body. You are fine. There is nothing wrong with your heart.” She was just like, “You’re good to go. You can have a VBAC. You can have another C-section. You can do whatever you want. You’re fine. We can keep an eye on you, but you’re okay.” 

I started seeing an OB and I told her everything that happened and I was just like, “I want a VBAC.” I told her everything the cardiologist said, gave her all of the paperwork and she was like, “Yeah. You can totally have a VBAC.” 

So with both of their blessings, I was like, “Okay. Let’s try for baby number two. I’m okay. I’m healthy. I’m fine.” 

25:13 Getting pregnant again

Karen: So I got pregnant with baby number two and that was very exciting. I thought everything was going well then at 20 weeks, my OB said, “Unfortunately, I can’t be your doctor anymore. This practice cannot deliver you. You are too high of a risk for this office.” 

Meagan: For the office. 

Karen: Yes. Yes. They only delivered at these smaller boutique hospitals so they said that I needed to deliver at a high-risk hospital or a hospital that accepts high-risk patients. 

Meagan: Okay, got you. I got you. 

Karen: I got a little tongue-tied. They told me I needed to deliver at a different hospital that I didn’t want to deliver at. I was like, “If I’m going to deliver at a big hospital, it’s going to be Winnie Palmer in Orlando.” I’m a huge fan of theirs. So I was just like, “Okay. I can’t deliver with this office even though they’ve been aware of all my situations for a while. I’ll find a different office.” 

But I was already 20 weeks so it’s really hard to find a provider at 20 weeks. 

Meagan: It can be, yeah. 

Karen: The other disappointing thing they told me is, “Oh, by the way, you can’t have any more children. You really shouldn’t because, with everything that is going on with you, your body can’t handle it.” It was just like, I don’t understand where this is coming from. You’ve been telling me I’ve been okay. My cardiologist says I’ve been okay. I didn’t really get what was going on. 

Karen: I called around and only one clinic would take me when I was that far along with this high-risk label on me. 

Meagan: I was going to say the label. That’s exactly the word I was going to say. 

Karen: Yeah. I didn’t feel like it really fit, but that’s what they said I was. I found a big practice that had lots of doctors. It is a very prominent practice here in Orlando and I felt like I just had to settle. The first doctor I met with I was already frustrated because I asked for a female doctor and they gave me a male doctor. I don’t have anything against male doctors, I just feel more comfortable with a female doctor but he was just like, “Oh. You can’t VBAC at all. You had a vertical incision so you have to have a repeat C-section.” 

I was like, “I don’t– I’ve never heard anyone say that. Where does it say that in my medical records?” He was just like, “I don’t see it in your records, but this other doctor said that you had a vertical incision.” I’m like, “Well, how does she know that?” 

So I had to go and start pulling all of these records and got the surgical notes for my C-section and everything and finally, I found something that said I did not have a vertical incision so once I showed it to him, he was just like, “Oh, okay. Well, you still can’t VBAC. Your hips are too tiny. You can’t deliver a baby.” 

Meagan: Oh my goodness, just pulling them all out. Let me just shift this jar around and pull out the next reason. 

Karen: Yes. I was just like, “Are you serious? Okay.” 

Meagan: Goodness. 

29:53 Advocating for a VBAC

Karen: So me and my husband were like, “No. I want to try. We want to try.” I’m so glad my husband was there because he is always so good at being an advocate for me. He was just like, “No. She wants a VBAC. What can we do to make it happen?” 

So he said, “Well, your weight is one thing because your baby was so big the first time because you gained a lot of weight. We can help you try but if after two hours of pushing you can’t get that baby out, we’re going to give you a C-section.” 

It was very frustrating, but I felt like I really had no choice. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Karen: I hadn’t discovered you yet so I was just like, “Okay. I guess it is what it is. I will try my best to have a VBAC, but this guy’s going to stop me.” So I was very blessed that due to a scheduling issue, I had an appointment with a totally different doctor. She was this young female doctor. She was around my age and I felt like I could relate to her. I just really enjoyed talking to her. I don’t know if this has something to do with it, but my background is I am Japanese and Colombian and she was Asian, so it was just like, “Okay. I have someone else who is a person of color who understands at least the cultural differences.” 

So I don’t know if that really had anything to do with anything, but it did make me feel more comfortable with her.

Meagan: Which is important. 

Karen: Yes. After years of different doctors telling me there was something wrong with me, it was so nice to have her say to me, “Oh. You want a VBAC? Yeah. You are super healthy. You are going to be fine.” It was just like, “Oh my gosh. You think I’m healthy? Every doctor had been telling me that I’m overweight. There’s something wrong with my heart. There’s something wrong,” and she was telling me that I was healthy. That just made me so inspired and I just became a lot more proactive with my health. I didn’t feel like things had to happen to me. I felt like I had a lot more control over my situation. 

32:14 A spiritual dream

Karen: There was also one other event that happened and this was around Christmas. I’m a Christian, so we’ve been going to God a lot with prayers and I have been asking for a successful VBAC. So Christmas morning, I woke up to a dream but it didn’t feel like a dream. It felt more like a vision and I was giving birth vaginally to a little girl. In the dream, I had the knowledge that this was going to be my third child. I was like, “Wait a second. But I’m pregnant right now with my second child. How did that birth go?” 

I just was told by God, “Oh, that birth went well too. You’re going to be fine. You’re going to be happy. You’re going to have many children.” So I woke up so happy that Christmas morning. I told my husband with everything I’ve been battling and all of these negative thoughts, there is no way that this could have been something I produced myself or just dreamed of myself because it was such a positive, happy dream when before that, I had just been having constant nightmares about C-sections.

It was just this moment of, “Okay. God really is with us and he’s going to make sure everything is okay.” So yeah, between having this great doctor and then having that dream, I just was more motivated to really take control of the situation like, “Okay. I don’t have to let things happen to me. What can I do?” Which actually led me to The VBAC Link. 

I was already 33 weeks pregnant when I found you guys so it was kind of late in the game, but I’m so glad I did. I listened to The VBAC Link obsessively in the car, when I was walking my dog, all the time and I would just hear these different stories and notate, “Okay. This is what she did. This is how she got results. This is what happened to her.” I started taking all of these notes about how I should respond in different situations and I’m so glad I did because I did use some of that later on. 

34:34 Gestational hypertension

Karen: Unfortunately, I did develop gestational hypertension but I’m still not completely convinced that I actually had it. They diagnosed me the week I had to put down my dog and I had her since I was 15 so it was just devastating. I was under a lot of stress and I tried to explain that to them. They were like, “No. This is gestational hypertension.” I’m like, “Okay. Here is another label.” 

But I kept on top of my blood pressure readings. I never had high readings. I ate well. I tried to do exercise as much as you can when you are in your third trimester. Unfortunately, this practice had a policy that patients with gestational hypertension must deliver by 37 weeks. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Karen: Yes. They said that if you are a VBAC patient, they won’t induce you. So there’s another timeline. I had to deliver by 37 weeks. But yeah, things seemed to be going really well. Once I reached around 36 weeks, I actually started having prodromal labor. I’m like, “Okay, yes. Things are going really well.” Because I had gestational hypertension, I was going 3-4 times a week to the doctor at that point. 

Meagan: For non-stress tests and stuff? 

Karen: Yes, exactly. They could see that I was already 3 centimeters dilated so I was like, “Great. Everything is going great.” 

At the 37-week appointment, there was a scheduling issue and instead of being able to see my regular doctor, they assigned me to a different doctor and that just made me really, really nervous. I was just like, “I don’t want to go. I don’t feel right. Something is going to go wrong. It’s not my doctor. I don’t want to go.” 

My husband was like, “No. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay. Let’s go.” He canceled work so he could go with me. He was like, “Everything is going to be okay.” The other thing that happened that morning was my sister who was going to be in the room with us woke up with strep throat. I was like, “This is not a good week. This is not a good day. I don’t want to go in.” 

So when I went in, my blood pressure was 160/113 which was extremely high. This doctor told me, “You need to get a C-section today.” So I was just like, “Okay. I don’t want to hurt my baby. That’s fine.” I was really, really upset. I was crying and I told her I was scared and she was like, “Why are you scared?” My husband was pretty blunt and was like, “Because the doctors almost killed her last time.”

She was like, “How did they almost kill her?” He was like, “They put too much fluid in her body and they caused heart failure.” She laughed and she said, “That’s not a thing.” I was like, “Well, my cardiologist said it was a thing. How could you say it’s not a thing?” I went to the hospital. I was really upset but the nurse there was amazing. She was like, “What happened?” I basically told her everything like my life story basically up until that point. 

She was like, “I checked your blood pressure when you came in. You are fine.” She was like, “This is ridiculous. It just sounds like you are stressed out.” At that point, my blood pressure was–

Meagan: Reasonably so.

Karen: She checked my blood pressure and it was 117/83 so it was great. It was so funny because she kept the blood pressure cuff on me and the doctor who was working that day was the same doctor who told me I’d never be able to VBAC and kept coming up with excuses. 

My nurse was just like, “Look, her blood pressure is fine.” Then she took my blood pressure again in front of him and it went back up. She was like, “Can you step out?” She took it again and then it was fine. She started advocating on my behalf. She was like, “You guys are causing her heart pressure to go up. You guys are stressing her out. She does not have high blood pressure because of herself. It’s you guys.” 

The doctor was just like, “Oh, well I guess it’s fine, but wouldn’t you rather just have a birthday today?” I’m like, “No. I would not like to just have a C-section for no reason.” He’s like, “I really don’t want to send you home though,” but you really should consider this C-section just in case your blood pressure goes back up. 

I was like, “Look. I can check it repeatedly and if it goes up, I will come back. I’m not going to be stupid and put my son’s life in danger. I will come back.” He just kept trying to convince me and finally, we were like, “No. We’re leaving.” I told them, “If I’m going to have a C-section, it’s going to be with my regular doctor. I trust her. I’m going to have control over this situation somehow. Even if I have to have a C-section, it’s going to be by someone I trust. It’s not going to be by you.” 

39:36 Signing an AMA

Karen: He was not thrilled about hearing that but he said, “Okay fine. You have to fill out this paperwork saying you’re leaving against medical advice, but it will be fine.” I was like, “Okay, fine.” I filled out this paperwork. I was scared like, “They’re probably going to kick me out afterward, but whatever.” I filled it out and I went home. They did make me schedule a C-section for two days later when my regular doctor was on call. I was like, “You know what? If it has to happen that day, it’s fine. I did everything I could. I took control of whatever I could. It’s my doctor.” 

She made me feel seen and heard and she had my best interest at heart, so we are going to pray and just do what we can. 

The next two days, I walked 10 miles. I drank raspberry leaf tea. We had sex. We did basically everything you can do to get labor going. I was still having prodromal labor so we would get our hopes up and then it would stop and then get our hopes up and then it would stop. 

Around midnight the night before I was supposed to get my C-section, I was so upset. I was just like, “It’s not going to happen. I’m just going to have to get a C-section.” I just gave up completely. My husband was just like, “No. God told you this was going to be fine. You’re going to be fine. Let’s just get some rest because it’s already midnight and we have to leave at 3:00 AM so let’s just get a little bit of rest and it will be fine. We will talk to the doctor in the morning.” 

I was like, “Okay.” So we went to sleep at 1:00. The alarm rang at 3:00 and I was in labor. 

Meagan: Yay! 

Karen: I was so excited. 

41:31 Going to the hospital

Karen: We went to the hospital. They still prepped me for a C-section. They were like, “Just in case,” but I was having regular contractions. It wasn’t going away. My doctor came in. She checked me and she was like, “Okay. If you want to TOLAC, I’ll send you over.” I was just like, “Oh my gosh, yes. This is my dream!” 

We were so happy. They wheeled us over and it just felt so surreal. We just kept waiting for the rug to be pulled out from under us and someone came in and was like, “No, you need a C-section now. You’re not allowed to be over here,” or something. We were just waiting. 

I wanted this to be another unmedicated birth, but our midwife came in and she told me her plan. She said she wanted to try a small bit of Pitocin to see if I could make the contractions a little bit stronger and then she saw my hesitation and told me, “It’s only a small amount to help move things along, but you are not on a time limit. You can take however long you need to labor. It’s just to help move things along. The max is 10. We won’t ever get to that point.” 

I was just like, “Okay. I’m going to put my trust in you because my doctor trusts you.” She also asked if she could break my water to help move things along and I felt at ease so I was just like, “Okay. That’s fine.” 

My husband was really surprised I was consenting to the Pitocin and to the water breaking. I told him, “I don’t know. All this time, I’m always fighting against my gut and my gut is telling me I can trust them fine and this is going to be okay.” 

I listened to her plan and I said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” They also kept a really close eye on my fluid levels– the thing that the other doctor said was not a thing. It felt good to know that they were actually paying attention to me and listening to me. 

Karen: The other thing that happened was at 10:00 AM, my sister completed 48 hours of antibiotics so she was able to join us and I was like, “Okay. Everything is going to be okay.” My husband and I were finally able to relax. 

Meagan: Good. 

Karen: Yeah. Again, I wanted to go unmedicated but I noticed something about my body which was that I could not relax my pelvic floor. I was so tired. I was so exhausted from the last 48 hours, from the walking, from not sleeping, and from everything. I was just like, “I’m trying, but I cannot relax it.” I was just like, “I think I want an epidural. I think that will relax my pelvic floor and just relax in general.” 

They gave me the epidural so I was finally able to get some rest. Without even having to ask them, the midwife would come in, put me in different positions, and just do different things to help me get the baby down on its own instead of last time where they just left me lying in there with no instructions. 

Then around 4:00 PM, they told me I was fully dilated and they were like, “Let’s do some practice pushes. Let’s just make sure you know what you’re doing with your body. We can troubleshoot and then when you’re ready, you know what to do already.” I was like, “Yeah. That’s fine.”

They get everything ready, start doing some practice pushes, and the midwife goes, “Oh, these aren’t practice pushes.” 

45:20 Pushing for 20 minutes

Karen: She starts getting suited up and the room starts filling up with people and 20 minutes later, my baby was out. 

Meagan: 20 minutes! 

Karen: Yeah, 20 minutes of pushing. He was 9 pounds so he was still a big baby and perfectly healthy and beautiful. It was wonderful. One thing that my husband noticed was that the whole room was all women. It was such a cool girl power moment. They were all cheering and so happy for me getting my VBAC and it was just a total girl power that we were all like, “Yes. We did it. Girl power! The doctor is a woman. The pediatrician is a woman. We did this.” 

It was such a cool, surreal moment and then they had other nurses coming in and they were like, “We heard your story. That is so cool you got your VBAC.” It was so, so amazing. 

It was just such a huge difference having this supportive environment. I don’t know. In that moment, it was like an instant feeling of relief because I felt like all of this trauma that I had been carrying with me for so long was just lifted. I felt like I was finally healed and I was able to forgive myself for the C-section and realize, “Okay. You didn’t fail at anything. Things happen. You didn’t know. It’s okay.” 

Finally, I didn’t have this label that I was defining myself with for so long which was traumatic birth. I finally just got to have the birth I wanted for it to be pretty smooth after the drama of the earlier morning. Everything just went perfectly and it was so, so beautiful. I was crying. We were all crying. The doctor was just like, “Okay, is this pain crying or is this happiness?” I’m like, “This is happiness!” 

Meagan: Pure joy.

Karen: That’s my story. 

47:30 White coat syndrome

Meagan: That is awesome. I love that you truly got to end that way surrounded with women and somebody that you really like and just having everyone rejoicing and happy and crying together and having that space be such a drastic change in your first birth. That is amazing. Thank you so much. Did you have any blood pressure issues during your labor at all? 

Karen: No. My blood pressure was fine. They were keeping an eye on it the entire time and I was getting nervous because I thought, maybe if it should up they would wheel me over to a C-section, but no. It was fine the entire time. 

Meagan: I love that. It’s kind of interesting because there have been times where I’ve had clients where they don’t have any signs of hypertension or preeclampsia or anything like that, but then they go to their visit and then they are like, “Oh my gosh. My blood pressure was just through the roof.” They go home and they are checking it at home and they are like, “It’s fine.” But then they go and it’s through the roof every time they go. 

We just had a client just the other day. She’s 34 weeks and she went and her blood pressure was pretty high. It really was. It was high. The reading was high and they did a couple of readings. They said things like, “Well, we might have to go to an emergency C-section.” This and that. Anyway, she was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on.” She was like, “I want to go home.” 

She went home and relaxed and had food. Her blood pressure was fine. White coat syndrome is a real thing and it’s something to take into consideration like, “I never have blood pressure issues. I don’t have any signs. I don’t have protein. I don’t have these things. What may be going on?” I love how your nurse was like, “Hey, can you step out? Go out.” She was very able to relate to that. 

Then sometimes, we have it and we don’t know why. With your first pregnancy, did you have any high blood pressure at all? 

Karen: No. It was just a very uneventful pregnancy. Everything was perfect. It was very strange for these blood pressure problems to happen afterward.

Meagan: Yeah. I think it’s called peripartum so it could happen before or postpartum cardiomyopathy. 

Karen: Yes. Yes. 

Meagan: That’s what I was thinking it was going where the heart muscles weaken and can lead to heart failure progressively. The symptoms include fatigue, hard to breathe, and feeling your heart rush. Those are common. 

Karen: Yeah, so that’s actually what is on my medical records is that I had peripartum cardiomyopathy but my cardiologist was just like, “I don’t believe that for a second. Your heart is fine.” She kept an eye on my heart the entire pregnancy and after the pregnancy. Nothing else happened. 

Meagan: I almost wonder if your heart was under stress. You talked about fluids. We get an astronomical amount of fluids during a C-section too. I’m just wondering if your body just went under a lot with a Cesarean. There was a lot of shifting and a lot of things happening and then of course a Cesarean. It just made me curious because sometimes if you have hypertension before, it can be a risk factor in that. Interesting. 

Karen: Yeah. That’s something that the cardiologist said is that sometimes it gets confused with fluid overload. She thinks that’s what happened. Part of the labeling that was happening is throughout my second pregnancy, I kept having to tell people that I did not have blood pressure issues with the first because they kept going, “Oh yeah, well you had blood pressure issues with your first pregnancy,” and I’d be like, “No, I didn’t. Stop assuming that.”

Meagan: I mean, I am no medical professional by any means, but it makes me wonder if it could have been related to the birth itself. 

51:59 Symptoms of hypertension and preeclampsia

Meagan: I’d love to talk about hypertension and preeclampsia and things like that because hypertension is something that happens during pregnancy and it can be associated with lots of different reasons, but sometimes hypertension during pregnancy can lead to preeclampsia or HELLP or things like that. 

I want to give a little educational tidbit here. Talking about just hypertension. High blood pressure or hypertension does not necessarily make us feel unwell all the time. You can have that and not know. So you walking into your visit and them being like, “You have hypertension.” You’re like, “Oh.” It’s not completely abnormal to just walk in, but sometimes we might have headaches or not feel super great. 

If you are feeling crummy or especially if you are feeling like you can’t breathe when you lay down or have shortness of breath, do not think that those are all just normal pregnancy symptoms that people who told you, “Oh, yeah. It’s a new mom.” You’re like, “No.” So follow your body. Trust your body. 

Preeclampsia is a condition that does affect pregnant women and can sometimes come on after that 20-week mark where we are having some of that swelling. We are having the high blood pressure. We have protein in our urine. That’s when it turns into that preeclampsia stage. It’s really hard. It’s still unknown exactly why preeclampsia or hypertension come, but it’s believe to be placenta-related so sometimes our placenta doesn’t attach in the full-on correct manner and our blood vessels are pumping differently so we can get high blood pressure. 

I want to note that if you are told that you have high blood pressure or if you have preeclampsia, that doesn’t always mean you have to schedule a C-section. It just doesn’t. It doesn’t mean it’s always the best decision to not schedule a C-section if that makes sense, but that doesn’t mean you have to have a C-section because you have hypertension or blood pressure. I feel like time and time again, I do. I see these comments in our community where it’s like, “I really wanted my VBAC, but I just got preeclampsia. The doctor says I have to have a C-section.” That just isn’t necessarily true. They can be induced. I know you mentioned your one hospital was like, “No, we can’t induce because you are a VBAC,” which also isn’t necessarily true. 

54:52 Tips for hypertension and preeclampsia 

Meagan: Sometimes we also want to be aware of hypertension or preeclampsia getting worse because labor can be stressful on our body and all of the things. I wanted to just give a couple of little tips. If you have high blood pressure, increase your hydration. Go for walks. Cut out a lot of salts so really eating healthy and then you can get good supplements to help. 

If you are in labor and you are getting induced or something like that, sometimes you may want to shift gears. Maybe an epidural can be a good thing to reduce stress or a provider may suggest that it’s not abnormal. But know that if you were told you have hypertension or you have preeclampsia, it doesn’t always mean it’s a for sure absolutely have to have a C-section. 

Even your provider was like, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this high blood pressure stuff. I really wanted to keep you.” You were like, “No.” Then your other doctor was like, “We’ll kick you over here to 38 weeks,” because everything really was looking okay. Yay for that doctor for not making you stay and have a C-section that day. Know that you do have options. 

Time and time we talk about this. Don’t hesitate to ask questions. Ask questions. Can I get a second opinion? Can I go home and relax and take a reading there? Is there something I can take to help with my blood pressure? Those types of things and then following your heart. What does your heart say? That’s just my little tidbit. Do you have anything to add? I know you didn’t have high blood pressure in the first pregnancy and then you kind of did sort of maybe have white coat syndrome or blood pressure with the second but do you have any tips on this situation? You were exactly in that space of they are telling you you have blood pressure. He is telling you he doesn’t want you to go home and that type of thing.

Do you have any messages to the audience?

56:55 Karen’s final tips

Karen: One thing I started doing during this pregnancy was meditation and that helped a lot. Whenever I felt like, “Okay. I’m going to go into a stressful situation,” which was most doctor visits, I would meditate before the doctor came in and that would really help a lot. 

Meagan: Yes. Exercising, eating, hydrating, meditation, and doing something to bring yourself back down can help. It doesn’t always help. Sometimes we have high blood pressure and we do not understand it. We cannot control it as much as we are trying to. It just doesn’t want to listen to what we are trying to do or receive the things we are trying to do, but all of these things can help. I am just so happy for you that you found good support, that you found the true bubble of love in your hospital room at the very end, and that you were able to have your VBAC. 

Karen: Thank you. Yeah. I do want to make sure. I’m not trying to send a message of, “Ignore high blood pressure! Do what you want!” It absolutely can be a very scary thing. If you need to have a C-section because of it, totally understandable. It’s just that my big message that I tell new moms is to listen to your body and you are allowed to say no. You are allowed to say no to people and ask for options. But the big one is to listen to your body. Listen to your gut. You know what is really, truly going on with your body. 

Meagan: Of course, right. And typically, birth is actually the full cure for things like preeclampsia. Getting baby earthside is typically the end of that preeclampsia and the stop. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t say, “No, I’m not going to do anything,” but just know that you have options. Induction is still okay typically. Ask those providers about your individual needs. Talk about your individual case but yeah, I would agree. I’m not trying to say, “Don’t listen to your provider.” I’m just saying that you have options and you often will have options if they say one thing or another. Don’t hesitate to ask questions. 

Karen: Exactly. Exactly. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Jennifer joins us today sharing her HBA3C story! Each birth was a stepping stone that gave her more education and wisdom which ultimately led to her home birth after three Cesareans. Jennifer’s first Cesarean was due to meconium in the water, slow progress, and heart rate issues. Her other two Cesareans were scheduled, but her third was particularly difficult because in her heart, Jennifer really wanted a VBAC. 

After regretting her decision to get her tubes tied during her third Cesarean, Jennifer opted for a reversal and it worked! Once pregnant with her fourth, she traveled two hours each way across state lines to find a home birth midwife. When labor began, Jennifer booked an Airbnb, called in her team, and had the beautiful home birth she knew she was capable of.

Jennifer’s Website

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:20 Review of the Week

05:02 First C-section

06:48 Second C-section

08:02 Third C-section during COVID

10:09 Getting her tubes tied and reversal

13:38 Fourth pregnancy

16:39 Finding a home birth midwife in another state

19:02 Going into labor and reserving an Airbnb

24:04 Complete dilation

26:37 Pushing and catching her baby

31:24 You are worth it

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. This is Meagan, your host here at The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Jennifer. Hi Jennifer. 

Jennifer: Hi. 

Meagan: You guys, her story– we were just talking about this before the episode. It has a lot of surprises like, “Oh, I didn’t expect that. Whoa.” So I’m so excited to– I’ve read a summary of her story and am now excited to hear it in her own words. I also thought it was kind of fun. She was just saying her kids are excited to hear her story because they know The VBAC Link podcast too. 

Jennifer: Yep. It was part of our preparation for the birth just having them hear stuff and hear how births are because obviously, they’d never had any experience. 

Meagan: Yes, so how old are your kids? 

Jennifer: 11. 9, 3 and now newborn. 

Meagan:  And now newborn. We have very similar-aged kids. 11 and 9 and then I have an 8-year-old this year. And then we jump. That is so exciting. I’m excited to get into your HBAC after three Cesareans and all of the fun things away. 

02:20 Review of the Week

Meagan: But I do have a Review of the Week and this review is from mcgrace. I actually think I know who this is. It says, “Must listen for every mom-to-be.” It says, “This podcast is a must-listen not just for the mom preparing for a VBAC but anyone who is giving birth and has given birth or plans to give birth in the U.S. Meagan wonderfully walks through personal stories while preparing helpful advocacy tips and a solid dose of empowerment in each episode. If you want to hear people discussing their path to VBAC, if you’re curious about what giving birth looks like in the U.S., and if you want tips on how to mentally, emotionally, and physically prepare yourself for the best birth, listen to this podcast.” 

Thank you so much for that review. 

Jennifer: Totally. I 100% agree. 

Meagan: That is so sweet. I do agree with her. Yes, VBAC is in the title of this podcast, but it really is for anyone. 

Jennifer: Totally. 

Meagan: And everyone wanting to give birth. 

Jennifer: Definitely. 

Meagan: I feel like if I had this podcast when I was preparing for my daughter Lainey, that would have changed a lot. 

Jennifer: Yes. If I had listened before my first birth, I feel like so much would have and could have been different. 

Meagan: Could have been different. I know. I’m so grateful for all of the Women of Strength who are sharing on this podcast and who are sharing on social media. By the way, we are accepting stories for our social media because we do have a lot of submissions on the podcast and we can’t get to everyone. We would love to still share every story possible, so if you are interested in sharing your story on our social media, email us at info@thevbaclink.com with your subject “Share My Story” and we will get that posted. 

05:02 First C-section

Meagan: Okay, girl. Let’s dive into all of these stories. They are all– I don’t know. I feel like each one is the stepping stone to this final birth. 

Jennifer: Yes. Yes. 

Meagan: And I’m not saying you are done having babies. 

Jennifer: Well, yeah. Most recent. 

Meagan: I don’t want to say final like you are done. But this birth that you are sharing, I feel like each one came with learning and growing and all of the steps it took to get you to this point. 

 

Jennifer: Yeah. I feel like I was so young with my first and I didn’t have any education at all which is common. 

Meagan: That’s how I felt. 

Jennifer: But yeah. It was a slow, long labor which is pretty typical for a first. I went to the hospital right away and I just had in my mind, I didn’t know about physiological birth. I just knew. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This hurts.” I thought I needed to be in the hospital because this hurts and something must be wrong because it hurts. Then I had an epidural and things were slow. 

He did have meconium. They broke my water and he had meconium. It was that cascade of interventions and it was just kind of one thing after another. It slowed down after the epidural and at 4 centimeters, his heart rate wasn’t looking great and they said, “You need a C-section.” In my mind, it was like it was an emergency. “Oh my gosh, I need a C-section.” 

So I had the C-section and yeah. That was the first stepping stone like you said. I didn’t know anything. 

06:48 Second C-section

Jennifer: Then with my daughter, I wanted a VBAC. I heard about VBAC and was like, “Oh, that’s a thing.” Someone who I look up to told me the dangers and the big risks. They really had good intentions. They really thought it was dangerous so were trying to look out for me, but I was very vulnerable and they really scared me out of it. They were like, “You’ll both die if you rupture within a couple of minutes.” Now, after I’ve learned more, I’m like, “That’s not even true,” but at the time, I was like, “Uh, I just don’t think it’s worth the risk,” so I just scheduled that C-section. 

I think each recovery was also more difficult. The first one was a fairly easy recovery and then the second one was a little harder and then my third was that bigger age gap. I had educated myself a little more or at least I knew what I wanted. 

08:02 Third C-section during COVID

Jennifer: I knew that I wanted a VBAC. I didn’t want to deal with the drugs again postpartum and the numbness and everything. I just didn’t want to deal with it all with a C-section. That was during 2020 COVID year so that was a whole other level of difficulty added in with that year. 

That was the one where they did a bait and switch on me. I said from the beginning with my OB/GYN, “Would you let me have a VBAC?” They were like, “Yeah. We can definitely do that. We’ll just look at your scar in an ultrasound later on and as long as it looks thick enough, yeah. You can have a VBAC.” 

Of course, my scar was not thick enough. I’ve since learned and I think on one of your podcasts you talked about it in great detail. But that test is super– I mean, you talk about millimeters on this fuzzy black screen. 

Meagan: Yeah. Not necessarily something that should be a determining factor for VBAC. We’ve even had a doctor on the podcast that was like, “No. The evidence is just not strong enough to go off of.”

Jennifer: Yeah. I was still in the mindset then of, “Doctor said no so I can’t,” so I scheduled the C-section and that one was really hard. I think it was because I knew that I wanted a VBAC and I wasn’t getting it. With the other two, I didn’t know I really wanted it so I was like, “Well, this is just how it is.”

With the third, I was so anxious during the C-section. I remember my doctor down there and she yelled to the anesthesiologist, “You need to give her something to calm her down,” because I was just crying and yeah. 

Meagan: I’m sorry. 

Jennifer: Yeah. It was a rough one. 

10:09 Getting her tubes tied and reversal

Jennifer: And then this is one of the twists in my story. That’s when I had my tubes tied. 

Meagan: The big twist. 

Jennifer: Yeah. I had my tubes tied during that third C-section. 

Meagan: Did your provider offer that or suggest it or did you say, “We’re done having babies”?

Jennifer: No. It was suggested multiple times throughout my care. I feel now like it was a little bit of coercion but it was my choice. My husband and I made the final decision as we were driving to get the C-section. Now I’m like, “You don’t decide to get your tubes tied when you are 9 months pregnant.” 

Meagan: That’s a hard decision. 

Jennifer: That’s not when you make that decision. Any decision, but definitely not that one because you are so tired of being pregnant at that point.  

Meagan: You are vulnerable, yes. 

Jennifer: So I had my tubes tied during that C-section and then the next day, it was instant regret. I was like, “I cannot believe we did this.” My husband felt the same way. We were both just like, “Ugh, what have we done? Why did we do that?” 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Jennifer: It was really hard to grieve through that. It felt like a loss even though it wasn’t. It felt like I had lost a baby almost because of how intense the grief was knowing that I could never have another baby. 

Meagan: I understand that so much when my husband got the vasectomy that I didn’t want him to get. I felt like, “I’m grieving a kid I’ve  never had but I’m grieving a kid that I had in my mind.” You know? 

Jennifer: Yeah, totally. It’s a very real grief. My husband right away suggested reversal, but I dealt with a lot of guilt about that like, “No. We chose this. My insurance paid for this. We can’t go and spend money on getting it reversed. We have to live with this.” I had to work through that guilt and shame and finally, we were blessed to be able to get it reversed two years-ish after. 

Meagan: How was that? How was the process of that? 

Jennifer: That was hard. It was like another C-section, the operation itself. It was outpatient but it was a big old C-section scar. The pain and everything was the same and not being able to lift. But emotionally, it was really healing. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Jennifer: Right away, I remember waking up from being under anesthesia after it and I was just crying. The nurse was like, “It’s really normal to be emotional.” I was like “I’m so thankful.” 

Meagan: Aww. 

Jennifer: I was just so glad. At that point, I didn’t even know if it had worked because it was not a guarantee. 

Meagan: A reversal. 

Jennifer: A reversal is not a guarantee. There could be scar tissue that blocks the fallopian tubes. 

Meagan: That makes sense. 

Jennifer: I think depending on age, they have different success rates but I think it's 80% or something like that. 

13:38 Fourth pregnancy

Jennifer: We did not conceive right away which we always did before, so I was not sure if it had been successful. It was almost a year before we finally did conceive, but we did about a year after I had the reversal. 

Now, I knew I would have the VBAC. I was going to work for it and try for it and it was during the time before I had the reversal actually that I got really passionate about it. I was like, “This may never come to anything for me personally because I may not ever have a baby again,” but I really grew passionate about birth and physiological births. I read a lot and I got to know about rights. I never had to have a C-section even with the last one when he said the scar wasn’t thick enough. I still didn’t have to have a C-section. 

Meagan: But we feel like that when we have providers who go through a lot more training and school than we do just on our Google searches and our classes and things like that. It feels that way. It feels like we don’t. They know what’s best. We trust them and we should trust our providers. I’m not saying we shouldn’t trust our providers, but we put everything that they say sometimes all in a basket and say, “That’s my fate,” and it doesn’t necessarily have to be. 

16:39 Finding a home birth midwife in another state

Jennifer: So this time, this pregnancy was with my fourth. I knew I would work for the VBAC. At first, when I had been reading and researching and learning and everything, I knew I wanted a home birth. I was like, “That’s so what I desire.” It was just a dream for me that that could be a possibility. I knew it would help with the chances of having a VBAC just with what I’d learned about hospital practices and stuff. 

So I met with some midwives in New Mexico where we live and they said– I met with several and they all said, “Law here doesn’t let us do a home birth after multiple C-sections. We can do it after one but not multiple.” I was just trying to be really open and praying that the birth would be how it was supposed to be. 

I was like, “Okay. We’ll just do the hospital and I’ll be ready to stand up for myself. I’ll know all of my rights and I’ll know all of my info and I’ll just say, ‘I’m not having a C-section’”. Then I met with my OB and I was expecting to have a big dialogue. I was like, “Would you support a VBAC after I’ve had the three C-sections?” I was expecting this back and forth and he was like, “That’s a hard no.” I was like, “Oh, okay. I guess we’re done.” 

Meagan: Okay. 

Jennifer: So I started looking in El Paso, Texas which is just two hours away from us because one of the midwives had said that the laws are different in Texas. We found a really great, experienced midwife there in El Paso. She was very confident and I feel like that’s a really huge part of getting your VBAC is your provider’s confidence. Not just that they are tolerant, but that they are like, “Yeah. You can do this,” which is how she was. 

Meagan: How it should be. 

Jennifer: Yeah. 

19:02 Going into labor and reserving an Airbnb

Jennifer: We did my prenatal care with her. It was a normal pregnancy. Then I went into labor at midnight a week and a day before Christmas. 

Meagan: You went there. You had an Airbnb, right? 

Jennifer: Yes. That’s the other twist and turn. We were doing this home birth, but we don’t live in El Paso obviously, so the plan was to get an Airbnb and birth there. At first, we were going to get it ahead of time, but just planning-wise and money-wise, we decided not to do that. We still could have missed it even if we booked two weeks around the due date. 

Meagan: Right and that’s a lot of money to spend. 

Jennifer: Yeah. We ended up just deciding to wait until I went into labor and then we’d book an Airbnb. The backup plan was we could do a hotel suite if we couldn’t find anything. Yes. 

Meagan: If it wasn’t available. 

Jennifer: Midnight was the worst time that I could have gone into labor because you check in to an Airbnb at 3:00 in the afternoon and midnight is about as long away as you can get from the afternoon. 

But it was fine because it did progress really slowly. Even though it was my fourth birth, it was like a first-time labor. 

Meagan: Yep. The first time you did really– well, I mean you labored. 

Jennifer: I labored for a little while, but I never got into active labor. 

Yeah, so it was slow and we had time. We just messaged all of the AirBnbs that would have worked for us and we were like, “Could you let us check in this morning?” They were like, “We have a guest and we have to clean so we can let you check in at 3:00 or 4:00” or whatever. Finally, one was like, “We’re cleaning it now and we can have it ready by 11:00.” We’re like, “We’ll take it.” It was beautiful. It was a great house to give birth in. 

Meagan: Good. 

Jennifer: So I labored slowly. It was really slow and then all of a sudden, it seemed like it was picking up. For a minute, I thought people weren’t going to get there. I texted all of my support people and I was like, “You need to come now. You might miss it,” but we had plenty of time. I had a doula and my midwife there and my friend, my sister, and my sister-in-law so a lot of support which I ended up just really needing. 

I felt so in need of support– touch, prayers, drinks, back rubs, and everything that could be. I’m kind of a reserved person. That’s not my normal personality, but in labor, it was. I was also really bossy. I was like, “Cover me up right now. Okay, take the blanket off. I need the heating pad. Get me a drink.” I told my sister-in-law, I asked her to change because she had strong perfume and I’m really sensitive to smells. I was like, “Could you please change your shirt? I’m so sorry,” but I just got super bossy in labor. 

My doula was great. She did lots of hip squeezes and counterpressure. That was so helpful. I remember during the hardest, last few hours, I was like, “How has any woman ever done this? How has any woman ever made it through labor?” I just felt like there was no escape and it was just going to go on forever. My midwife got kind of stern with me which was hard, really hard in the moment because I felt like she was being really mean. 

My doula told me afterward that she was kind of in the middle range. She’s worked with midwives who are really aggressive and with midwives who are really gentle and this was kind of mid-range. I was like, “I guess that’s good.” 

I realized afterward, it was really good. It helped push me through, but she was like, “You need to get out of your head. You need to stop feeling sorry for yourself and do the work.” I was like, “You’re being so mean.” 

Meagan: That is hard to hear when you’re going through labor. 

Jennifer: Yeah, it was. But I think there was a part of me that did feel sorry for myself for going through it. I did need to get the mindset like, “I need to finish this.” 

Meagan: We’re doing it, mhmm.

24:04 Complete dilation

Jennifer: Near the very end, she wanted to check me and I hadn’t wanted any cervical checks. I did end up having three total. I had one in the very beginning just to make sure it was really it and then she had checked me sometime in the afternoon/evening and this is why I didn’t want cervical checks because I was only at 5 and I was sure I must almost be done. I was like, “I must almost be at 9.” I was only at 5 and I was like, “Ah, how am I going to this much longer?” But then at the end, she wanted to check me again and I did not want to be checked again. 

She said, “If you’re not progressed much from where you were earlier, with the way you are coping, we probably need to go to the hospital and get you an epidural, get you some Pitocin, and move this along.” I found out later that the baby’s heart rate at that time was looking iffy. It had been spiking and going back to normal. 

I don’t know if they didn’t tell me during the time or if I just don’t remember it because of labor, but that’s why she was really urgent to check me. I was really resistant to it but finally, I was like, “Okay, fine.” When she checked me, she was like, “There’s no cervix. You are ready to push.”

Meagan: That’s a common thing when babies come down, the cervix opens, and everything is complete. Sometimes babies can do a funky, “Whoa, what’s going on here?” with their heart rate. 

Jennifer: Okay, that would make sense. But I wasn’t pushing or anything. I expected– I had all of these expectations. I expected to do lots of different positions and then in the moment, I was like, “I just have to survive in whatever position I happen to be in.” 

I had expected to feel that real urge to push and there really wasn’t. My midwife ended up directing me how to push. She put me on my back propped up on the bed. I didn’t want to be on my back because I knew that was not an optimal position for pushing, but I was so tired. This was around 2:00 in the morning the next morning after I had gone into labor the midnight before so it was a 26-hour labor altogether. I was so tired. 

26:37 Pushing and catching her baby

Jennifer: I was on my back and she was telling me to hold my breath and bear down. Pushing was the hardest thing I have ever done. I wanted to blow out and let some of my air out and she was like, “Stop it. Hold your breath.” I could not feel the baby coming down. I felt no ring of fire. I didn’t feel any of it. All I felt was the contractions. They were so intense and trying to bear down and hold my breath and not blow out was so hard but it was effective. It was just a few minutes, just a few contractions that I pushed for and then her head came out. 

I didn’t feel her head come out and then her body right after. I had wanted to catch her and my midwife guided her out. She was like, “Take your baby, Jennifer.” 

Meagan: Aww. 

Jennifer: So I reached down and pulled her up to my chest. It took a little while for it to sink in that I had the VBAC. 

Meagan: I bet. 

Jennifer: I was just in that state of, “This is never going to end.” It was so hard. 

I was in a wanting to give up state of mind also. I was like, “If they could bring the hospital here, I would take the epidural. I would take the C-section,” at the moment, but I couldn’t fathom getting in the car. That was the only thing that stopped me from, “Let’s just go to the hospital.” I could not imagine getting in the car at that point of labor. 

Meagan: Which says something too, right? It says, “It’s time to have a baby.” 

Jennifer: Yeah, totally. 

Yeah. That was it. It was a beautiful time afterward because everyone in the house heard. It was just me, my husband, and my doula for most of the time in the bedroom, but everyone heard me being very loud when I was pushing and heard her cry when she came out so my kids all came in at 2:00 in the morning and my sisters. Yeah. It was just a beautiful time afterward and was so nice to just be in a home even if it wasn’t my home. 

Meagan: You were in a home. 

Jennifer: And relaxed and comfortable. We waited to cut the cord until the placenta came out. It was just all relaxed and very beautiful. We named our little daughter Willa which means protection and just signifies how God protected us through this thing that a lot of people think is really scary and really dangerous. I’m very thankful. 

Meagan: And you did it and there weren’t really any complications. How was your postpartum experience with this one? How was healing and recovery? You had three Cesareans. It started getting harder with each one and it can get harder naturally no matter what type of birth because we have other kids to take care of, but how was your postpartum experience?

Jennifer: It was really good, much easier than a C-section and really different. There’s still hard stuff. Just the pressure and bulging feeling that you have down there, I was like, “Oh, I’ve never experienced this before. I can’t sit up. I have to lay back or lean to the side or something to be comfortable.” 

Then I kept instinctively putting my hands on my scar area anytime I’d sneeze or cough because that’s what I’m used to having to do. 

Meagan: Oh, interesting. 

Jennifer: Then I’d be like, “Oh, I don’t have to do that.”

Meagan: That was probably really nice. 

Jennifer: That was really nice, yeah. Then not having to be on painkillers afterward. That’s a huge thing for me because I feel like it’s always dulled or blurred, those first few weeks. You are kind of out of it and both me and the baby were both more alert than I’ve ever experienced before. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I would agree. I mean, I was there but it was. It was kind of blurry. 

Jennifer: Yeah, just a little blurry. 

Meagan: I was really tired and groggy. You’re already tired and groggy anyway after laboring, especially after surgery, but yeah. 

Jennifer: Yes, totally. 

31:24 You are worth it

Meagan: I am so happy for you. I am so grateful that along the way you were able to learn and grow educationally. Knowing you personally, you were finding out who you were more personally. You were like, “I have more to offer to this experience” by learning and growing and advocating for yourself. Driving two hours is not an easy thing and to think, “I’m renting. I’m paying for a midwife. I’m renting an Airbnb.” There are a lot of puzzle pieces that have to come together and fit and those can be really daunting. Really daunting, but typically it is worth it. 

Jennifer: Yeah, so worth it. I’ve thought about that along the lines of how eating healthy costs more and is a little harder or sometimes a lot harder. It’s easy to eat fast food and processed food and stuff, but when you put in the work and the money also to have better health, it’s worth it.

I felt like that with the birth because yeah. We are paying for the Airbnb and we’re paying for the midwife and we’re paying for the doula and it was all worth it 100%. Worth it to pay for that. 

Meagan: Worth it, right? We talked about this many, many times ago. I think it was Blyss Young who talked about how we put so much money and effort into our weddings and things like that, but then when it comes to birth, we’re like, “Oh, whatever.” Then we just don’t see the value in a lot of these things. 

So talking about nutrition, eating really good foods, getting the good supplements, even finding the provider, and sometimes we have to pay more out of pocket for that provider or whatever it may be and it’s less ideal but in the grand scheme, when everything is done, I feel like it’s more unlikely for us to go back and be like, “I regret paying for that childbirth education class” or “I regret paying for a doula” or “I regret finding the right provider and giving birth in a home versus the hospital because that was my dream”. 

Jennifer: Yeah. You’re just not going to. I mean, I don’t. I definitely do not regret any of that. 

Meagan: I definitely didn’t either. I remember my husband being like, “You’re going to choose the most expensive option.” I was like, “It’s worth it. It’s worth it.” It’s worth it to give back to you. This is a really, really big day. Our wedding day is a big day. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a day that is amazing, but the vulnerability and the experience that sticks with us from birth I feel like is even bigger. 

Jennifer: It’s just huge, yeah. It really is. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jennifer: It was definitely all worth it to have all of the extras. 

Meagan: All of the extra, yeah. Not only is it worth it, you are worth it. Women of Strength, you are worth whatever it may be because I promise you in 25 years, you are not going to think about that $5000 that you spend on your midwife or whatever. I don’t know how much midwives are everywhere, but you’re not going to look at that. You’re not going to look at that. You’re going to be like, “That was worth it.” Yeah. Do what’s best for you and know that you are worth it. You are not selfish for wanting to do things differently or spend extra money or get the education. You’re not. It’s worth it. 

Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, who knows but I have a strong feeling it would have ended in a C-section if I had been in the hospital because we passed that 24-hour mark, and now the baby’s heart rate is looking iffy and I’m utterly exhausted and ready to give up. I just feel like there’s a good chance that it could have ended in a C-section. That’s not what is best. I know that’s not what is best for me at this point. I don’t know if we are done having kids and I know there are more complications with more C-sections. It was definitely worth it to also give myself the location and type of birth and everything that was going to lead more to success. 

Meagan: Right, yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your journey. 

Jennifer: Yeah. I’m so glad to have been able to. I told you at the beginning that we’ve been listening to The VBAC Link all throughout my pregnancy and yeah, my kids are so excited that I’m going to be on it. 

Meagan: I can’t wait to hear what they think about it where they are like, “Whoa, that’s your voice, Mom. That’s your voice!”

Closing

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"She was in my arms while she took her first breath and she was just so calm and beautiful. It feels like time just stops at that moment. It was so, so special to me."

From turning down the opportunity to take a childbirth class during her first pregnancy to now passionately teaching her own classes (She Births Bravely) as a childbirth educator and attending births as a doula, Suzzie shares how birth has changed her. 

Located in Seattle, Suzzie talks about how her birth team created a safe place for her to have a peaceful home birth that was still very intense but didn’t feel that way. 

Meagan and Suzzie discuss pushing, continuous care, the importance of education, and their best tips on what to do during pregnancy to have an empowering birth experience no matter the outcome. 

Suzzie’s Childbirth Class

Suzzie’s Website

What Does Your Birth Plan Say About Your Personality Quiz

Real Food For Pregnancy

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

02:28 Review of the Week

03:53 Suzzie’s molar pregnancy

06:27 Beginning labor with fear and doubt

09:01 “It has been over 24 hours. It’s time for you to have a C-section.”

10:51 Making friends with a student-midwife

14:41 Suzzie’s second pregnancy and labor

18:50 Baby Hazel’s birth

27:06 OBs attending home births

30:40 Continuous care during home birth

36:23 Birth preparation tips

43:29 Knowing what questions to ask

48:18 Waters being broken for 24 hours

50:31 Checking in if labor stalls

Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. How are you? This is Meagan, your host here at The VBAC Link. I’m excited to talk a little bit today about what can we do before we have our baby or what should we do when we get pregnant to start preparing for birth. 

We have our friend, Suzzie, with us today. Hello, Suzzie. 

Suzzie: Hi. 

Meagan: She is actually a doula and childbirth educator who has a lot of passion in sharing a message of what to do and how to prep and how to navigate through this amazing journey that we call pregnancy and birth and motherhood. She had an unexpected Cesarean just like a lot of us. If we go through most of these stories on the podcast, you’re going to hear that trend of it wasn’t expected. It wasn’t planned. It maybe wasn’t desired. That’s a common thing in our VBAC community. It’s important to know what to do and what to know because most of us just didn’t know what we didn’t know. 

02:28 Review of the Week

Meagan: So we are going to dive into a little bit more of how to prepare and a message from our darling Suzzie, but of course, we have a Review of the Week so we are going to get into that before we get into the next part. 

This is from kimberlyspair. Thank you, Kimberly. We love her. She says, “Thumbs up from us! Sharing such an essential message with love and compassion.” 

That is exactly what we are going to do today, sharing another message with love and compassion. As always, if you have a minute, we would love your review. You can leave it on 

Apple Podcasts, Google, message us at info@thevbaclink.com. Remember VBAC is V-B-A-C and let us know what you think about the show. 

03:53 Suzzie’s molar pregnancy

Meagan: Okay, cute Suzzie. So we were talking right before we got on the episode. You guys, she had her C-section birth at a hospital local to me here in Utah then went on to have an HBAC. Was your HBAC in Washington? Where was your home birth? 

Suzzie: It was. I live in Seattle and it was here in Washington. 

Meagan: Okay, cool. So Seattle, Washington mamas, listen up if you are looking for options for a provider. Yeah, so you talked a little bit about how birth taught you how much more capable you really are than you thought. I think that is something that happens a lot with us, right? We walk through this birth journey and we are like, “Dang, we are amazing.” We really, really, really are. Yeah, so Suzzie, tell us about your stories. Share your message with us. 

Suzzie: Yeah, yeah. I’d love to. I think that my birth story actually started before my first birth because I had losses and a molar pregnancy before. Molar pregnancy is a very complicated, unviable pregnancy where you ultimately– it took me about a year to be cleared healthwise after that to be able to start trying again. 

So I came into birth with a strong sense of knowing things could go wrong and also fear. I also worked in finance and I was very busy. I just didn’t really have a lot of time to prepare. I didn’t have a lot of support at home so when, for example, I had a really great friend that I worked with and he and his wife were having a baby around our same due date and they had hired somebody to teach them private childbirth classes in their home. They invited us to come and join them in that process. I was like, “No, can’t. Too busy.” 

That whole thought of, “Okay. I’m going to prepare really mindfully,” was too much for me for where I was at that point of life. I also dabbled a little bit in HypnoBirthing. There was a little bit of pressure to do a natural birth and as I was learning about that, the desire for that was growing and evolving, but the fear of labor and birth also wasn’t necessarily dissolving. 

06:27 Beginning labor with fear and doubt

Suzzie: So I feel like when I went into labor, I had a lot of really complex expectations and fears that weren’t really worked through because even though I had done some reading, the true preparation is truly very emotional. 

Meagan: It is. 

Suzzie: And a lot less fact-driven than it is learning about what we really need and how to speak up for what we need and how to ask the right questions and how to develop strong and open and trusting relationships. 

Meagan: And also trust yourself. 

Suzzie: Yes. Yes, that’s a really big one because I definitely did not have that factor either. 

When I had Zoe, my first, it was just such an overwhelming day for me. My water broke at night and I had called the doctor. I was like, “I’m not having contractions. Can I just stay home?” “Sure.” In the morning by around 8:00, I had been having pretty steady– I was probably making that transition from early labor into active labor where you are close to those 5-1-1 rules when you can go in and you can be admitted. My water was broken so of course, if your water is broken, you can be admitted. They have to admit you. Now, it seems like they encourage you to go in as soon as you can. 

Meagan: They do. 

Suzzie: Yeah, which has its pros and definitely has its cons. 

Meagan: Let’s talk about that later too. 

Suzzie: Yes. That’s definitely something to learn about because water breaking happens in about 10% of people before labor starts, about 10% of the time. It’s not crazy common but it’s way more common than at least what I thought before. You know and realize something like that could throw off my whole birth story or my whole birth experience. 

When I checked in, the nurse was really upset that I hadn’t come in earlier even though I had cleared that decision with my doctor so there was an initial conflict as I was checking in and signing the waivers. That instilled a lot. What she said to me put a lot of fear into me that I had done something wrong and that I had put my baby in danger and that things might not be okay. 

I also had those layers of having gone through a pregnancy that wasn’t viable and a lot of health complications from that so when I heard that, the amount of fear I felt was insane. Then my labor completely stopped. The contractions that had been steady and consistent for hours were gone. 

09:01 “It has been over 24 hours. It’s time for you to have a C-section.”

Suzzie: The rest of the day was about using Pitocin and trying to get labor started in other ways. Ultimately,  nothing ever worked. Zoe, I guess was having some kind of heart rate dips. At this point, if I could go back to what I know now, I would ask a lot more questions about how big they were or what they looked like, but at the time, I didn’t have enough knowledge to ask good questions or be proactive about movement and things like that that can sometimes help especially in inductions and especially when you are using medicine or Pitocin to push your labor. 

By midnight, they had just decided, “Okay, it has been over 24 hours. It’s time for you to have a C-section.” I truly do not know if this is a cascade of interventions story or if there was something wrong. It didn’t sit well with me at the time and it still doesn’t because I still have unanswered questions and that was a really not-great feeling. I feel like it wasn’t a great start to motherhood for me because it was very scary. I was very worried the whole time and then even after she was born by surgery, they had spent at this time more than 12 hours telling me that something could go wrong. They swaddled her up. They let me take a picture of her cheek to cheek with me and then she and her father disappear and are swept off somewhere. 

After the surgery, they put me in a recovery room and I was in there for several hours by myself shaking from the medication in the dark because it was night not knowing, “Am I okay? Is my baby okay? What’s normal in this picture? What’s not?” That was just overall not a great experience. 

10:51 Making friends with a student-midwife

Suzzie: I had actually kind of written off. I had just thought, “Oh, this birth thing must not be for me. It’s hard. I don’t like it.” All of the stories that you hear, I felt like, “Okay, great. That’s fine. I’ll move on with my life.” 

But then I moved and I joined a new moms group where we would go hiking every week. One of the friends that I met there was a student midwife and as our friendship evolved and we would talk, all of these stories revolved around the families that she was working with. I started to see that I had missed out on so much of the journey that I had never learned to ask good questions. I never really did have a great relationship with a care provider. There are care providers that will take more time and help you when you need it and there are some that can’t either from logistics or because they just don’t want to. 

That was a big eye-opener to me so when I had Hazel, I had a wealth more of information and experience and exposure to what a really empowered birth would look like. I had actually moved again. I lived in Portland for that one year and then I moved here to Seattle so I couldn’t have my friend as a midwife, but choosing the right care provider became my number one priority and I interviewed so many people. People that worked in the hospital and home birth midwives and I found somebody that I really connected with, Dr. Brandy. 

She just held my hand from the start to the finish. She was a home birth midwife and she was also a doctor of naturopathy. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Suzzie: She had a lot of tools for me going through pregnancy that just didn’t exist before. So when we talked about nutrition, she’d talk for an hour and pretty much all of our appointments were an hour long and always because she had things to teach me or to show me or to help me understand the process I was in and where I was going. It was just so helpful. 

I also had an amazing doula that helped me process a lot of my trauma and create a vision for myself. I think that whether or not I had ultimately gotten my VBAC, the process and the change that it took for me to go from somebody that was a rule follower and people pleaser– my first birth, I was the type of mom that was like, “Okay, I’m going to bring cookies for all of the nurses because I want them to like me,” versus by my second birth, I was like, “No, wait. These people are doing their job and they are here to show up for me. My job isn’t to make them happy but to work well together. Right? To develop a positive, working relationship.” 

That was a really big transformation. And also, if you have had questions that weren’t answered or you go through things and you don’t get support, those unanswered questions linger for a long time and they mean a lot. 

Meagan: They do. 

Suzzie: Whereas when you go through a situation and you over time have your questions answered, have everything you need to be making decisions that feel grounded and centered and good no matter what those decisions are, it feels a lot better and a lot safer and it makes it a lot easier to relax into the experience. 

I feel like when I had Hazel, my HBAC, my second, my perfect birth story that I was so lucky to have, everything lined up for me really well. 

14:41 Suzzie’s second pregnancy and labor

Suzzie: I had gone a little over 41 weeks and my midwife offered a membrane sweep which I did. She also said, “Go home and have sex,” which, you know, the prostaglandins. 

Meagan: Not fun at nine months pregnant. 

Suzzie: No, not fun at nine months pregnant or after a membrane sweep, but I will say that it did work because I had the membrane sweep at 8:00. We did the prostaglandin injection I will call it before bed and when I woke up in the morning, I was in labor. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Suzzie: I didn’t have much early labor. I didn’t have a long, drawn-out thing like I did with Zoe. It just kind of– I woke up. I was getting ready for the day and I was like, “Oh my god. That’s a contraction.” Then five minutes later, it was like, “Oh my god. That’s another contraction.” Zoe’s dad was getting ready for work so as he was off out the door, I had him sweep Zoe out to a friend’s house and drop her off then I actually was supposed to have an appointment that day. I called Dr. Brandy and I was like, “Dr. Brandy, I can’t drive.” That was my thought. I expected to have a really long labor and I was like, “I don’t think I can come to you.” 

She was like, “I think actually I’ll be coming to you, not the other way around.” 

Suzzie: I called my doula. She showed up. I called the girl who was setting up a big labor tub at my house. She came up and set up the tub then by about noon, I was in full, active labor and everybody was there, Brandy, her assistant– I think there might have been a student there too. I can’t remember. And my doula, who was incredible. 

By 9:00, I had Hazel. It was just such a simple, I truly don’t remember much about it because it just started and at the first few hours, it was the logistics of getting everyone there then I went for a walk. I remember going for a walk and then I came back. My doula did this cool muscle release thing when I came back and I actually slept through some contractions which was really weird, but it felt great. It was so soothing in the midst of all of this intense pressure work of labor. 

Then I got in and out of the tub a couple of times which felt so good and so relieving and then Hazel was actually 10 pounds and she actually came out with her hand next to her head. 

Meagan: A nuchal hand. 

Suzzie: Yeah, a nuchal hand, and then she had been breech. I did have some back labor, but when my doula did the muscle release things, she must have flipped because she didn’t come out breech. She came out– 

Meagan: With her hand up by her head. 

Suzzie: Yeah, the regular way with her hand up. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Suzzie: I mean, when I look back at the story, I’m like, “Okay, so there were a lot of things that could have been potential problems at so many different stages with the back labor–” 

Meagan: Do you mean breech or posterior? 

Suzzie: Oh sorry, yes. Thank you for correcting me. Posterior. That is what I meant. 

Meagan: Okay. Okay. I was like, “Wait, back labor.” Gotcha, gotcha. 

Suzzie: Thank you, thank you, thank you for correcting me. Yeah. Posterior, not breech. 

Meagan: You’re just fine. 

Suzzie: Yeah. She did the rotation, not the flip. 

Meagan: A lot of babies do rotate and we’re going to talk about that in a minute. Especially if you’ve had a posterior baby, listen up at the end because we will talk a little bit about posterior. A lot of them rotate during pushing. 

Suzzie: Yeah. It’s actually their job. I didn’t realize this until after I became a doula and I took the training which is so good if you are a birth worker out there. It’s called Optimal Maternal Positioning. I did not know this, but babies actually very, very rarely enter the pelvis with their eyes looking back which is the position most babies are born in. Most babies will rotate to the side or into a posterior position to enter the pelvis and then it’s their job during labor to rotate. 

18:50 Baby Hazel’s birth

Suzzie: So a lot of times when we are doing these things like, we are saying, “Okay, you are 10 centimeters. You don’t have an urge to push yet, but let’s tell you to push anyway.” There’s a reason you don’t have an urge. It’s because your baby is still doing their job which is rotating. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Suzzie: So I don’t know. When I work with moms, I have seen a lot less stress and less pushing and less complications in pushing simply by breathing baby down as long as possible and if a mom does have an epidural to labor down until even with an epidural, most moms get an urge to push at some point, an undeniable urge. 

Meagan: They feel pressure. There is an undeniable pressure. 

Suzzie: Yes and it happens with an epidural, but you have to wait because that rotating process can slow down. Yeah. I’m so glad you said that. 

Hazel was born. I did have to push a really long time. I think I had to push for four hours. I did not know that when I was doing it. I would have said it was 45 minutes. 

Meagan: Wow. That’s amazing. 

Suzzie: Right. I was in my zone. I was in the birthtub. I was in whatever position I was in and I had music playing in the background. I had Bergamo oil and there was an ice rag that someone would put on my forehead between contractions and I would just go from that intense work of pushing to being completely zoned out. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Suzzie: Totally in labor land. I totally, one, I didn’t find pushing to be that painful. I found it to be a very productive work and two, it was almost this weird time warp. I guess it did take a long time, but it didn’t feel that way to me. 

Hazel was super safe. It was the most amazing moment in the world. I didn’t see Zoe other than that maybe 10 minutes when we did cheek-to-cheek and took a picture with her in the OR for hours. So to be the one that when my midwife helped deliver her part of delivering of Hazel other than monitoring us, she just did this little scoop position thing so Hazel came out. She scooped her into my arms and there we were. She was in my arms while she took her first breath and she was just so calm and beautiful. It feels like time just stops at that moment. It was so, so special to me. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Suzzie: That’s Hazel. 

23:12 Thoughts on pushing 

Meagan: Birth can be that way. It’s not always and it doesn’t mean that it’s not beautiful if it’s not that, but birth can just be that special moment and beautiful time. I love that you pointed out that you pushed for four hours. You guys, pushing can last a while especially when you have a baby with a nuchal hand. There are things happening there. 

But Women of Strength, pushing for an hour– we have so many providers after an hour sometimes two who are like, “It’s just not happening. It’s not going to happen. Baby’s not going to come down. Baby’s not coming out.” That’s not necessarily true. We just may need to change positions or stop and just like Suzzie was talking about, let our babies come down on their own. Let them rotate and come down on their own, right? 

Suzzie: I see that all of the time now that I’m a doula and I attend births. I was with one mom when we were at the hospital. She had an epidural. We were pushing. She pushed a couple of hours and they were like, “Okay. We’ve reached the cut-off. It’s time.” She was exhausted. Pushing especially with an epidural when you are not ready can be– I’d say what she was going through was much more intense than what I had gone through when I was pushing Hazel. 

Luckily, this conversation was happening during shift change because she really wanted a break. She needed a break. So when the new nurse came on, I kind of explained to her the situation and she gave me the wink and was like, “Okay, I’ve got you.” She went about her business as slowly as she could as the new nurse coming on in the morning shift. I had taken my client and I helped her get in a comfortable position. Typically, if a mom is pushing and needs a break, I will do lay on the side, knees together, pillows or peanut balls between the ankles so your knees together, ankles out. I’ll just do a muscle release on that top hip and maybe help her rock back and forth a little bit just so she can relax, but we’re getting some movement into this pelvis area. 

The doctor came back. They were like, “Okay. We’re going to get you prepped.” They did one last check and they were like, “Oh my goodness. This baby is so low. We can see their head now.” 

Meagan: Yay!

Suzzie: They went from being super high to– 

Meagan: Ready to come. 

Suzzie: Yeah. Yeah. She did, I think, two pushes after that. She had to have these hours where there was supposedly no change. It was probably about a 30-minute break and in that time, her baby was just like, “Oh, I’ll just descend myself. Here I am. I can move through in this new position without as much effort from you.” 

I think sometimes there is so much fear about things that can go wrong, especially in the hospital where– I think now that I do a lot of home births and a lot of hospital births as well, I truly don’t understand how if you come up through the medical system, that you get enough exposure to women in labor without interventions to know enough about it to feel comfortable and safe in that process, right? 

We have a lot of providers that actually have big gaps in education which is not their fault, right? But it is a reality and one that they have to deal with and one that we have to deal with. 

27:06 OBs attending home births

Suzzie: I go to the Washington State Obstetrical Association. This year, I went and I was talking to one OB that was like, “Yeah, I did a home birth rotation when I was doing my training.” He was telling me about how it changed his practice so much and I really wish that everybody had that opportunity, but the reality is that most do not. It’s really important to be able to advocate for yourself to know what you want and then ultimately to make really good decisions about your care provider and where you give birth because it shouldn’t be an uphill battle if you have all of the pieces in line. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that you pointed out that it’s not their fault because I think sometimes, at least I’m guilty of this where I get a little sassy and I’m like, “Oh my gosh. This provider that or that provider that” or “This hospital this and that” and it can get to the point where sometimes it maybe looks like I hate hospital birth or I hate hospital providers which is the complete opposite. I do not hate anybody for that matter, but it can get a little frustrating when we keep seeing this as birth workers. 

What you were saying, it’s not their fault. It’s not. They are taught this way. They are taught this system, this protocol, and this pattern that birth needs to follow. It just needs to follow this way and if it doesn’t follow this way, they are taught X, Y, Z, and back all the way to A all the way to do things to manage that to control that situation. 

Then we have things that unravel like the cascade and then we have trauma. We have fear. We have doubts. We have a lot of things that didn’t necessarily need to happen, but it’s sometimes just how it happens. So if we come in and we’re not prepared to ask questions and advocate for ourselves which is really hard during labor. You guys, it’s really hard to advocate for yourself because just as Suzzie was saying, she was pushing and all in, then she was out. Right? We’re in and then we’re out. That goes through labor all around. There are a lot of things in my labor I remember very well and there are a lot of things I probably don’t remember at all or don’t even know happened. But we have to advocate for ourselves. 

If we can walk into our birth knowing that our team is on our side, but also give them a grain of salt and know there is training and know that there is X, Y, and Z that they have to follow, then we can have a better understanding and soften our hearts when things don’t go well also understanding that this really is how it is. It is. Like she said, most providers, I mean, I’m going to just throw a number out there. I’m going to guess that 99.9% of those OBs and midwives in the hospital system have not attended or had a rotation of home birth. 

Suzzie: I would agree with that. Yes. I think that is definitely an exception to the rule. 

30:40 Continuous care during home birth

Suzzie: Honestly, a lot of providers, when you come in and you catch your first baby as a provider, you might have never seen a woman have a natural labor. That’s not the priority of the medical system as you monitor and you treat which is really important because sometimes things happen and we do need to be treated. I went through a very medical procedure during my molar pregnancy and that saved my life. If I hadn’t had that treatment and that ongoing treatment, there would have been a lot of complications that could have happened which is very scary to think about.

But I think about it too, when I chose a home birth, a lot of people in my circle were very uncomfortable with that. Natural birth, especially from my kids’ dad’s family’s point of view was definitely the way to go. My family was very opposite, very medical, just go in and have your baby. But doing a home birth was kind of out there for everybody. It was a big– everybody had a lot of fear around that decision. 

Ultimately for me, the thing that made me feel really safe in that was that out of all of the providers I had talked to, Dr. Brandy was willing to build that open and trustful relationship with me. But more than that, when I gave birth to Zoe, I was in a hospital where my nurse had multiple patients. She was watching on a monitor. She had a lot on her plate. Emergencies can happen. You have a lot of things going on in those cases. My doctor also had a lot going on because they work on call. They were also a part of a busier practice so multiple patients at one time, bouncing back and forth between everybody’s different needs. 

The thing that I loved about a home birth was that I had an expert by my side from the moment it started to hours after. Once Dr. Brandy got there, I’m going to assume it was probably around noon although my recollection of the day, everything is very scattered because I was so supported to stay in that labor land. There was a lot of time warp going on. 

But anyway, she got there around lunchtime and she didn’t leave. The furthest distance that we were from each other was I would be in my bedroom and if I wanted space, she would go to the living room, or at one point, I went outside and went for a walk. But I had her continual monitoring, her continual– I guess I want to be careful with that word because it wasn’t continuous monitoring with the little machine, but she had her Doppler and she was continually listening as appropriate per guidelines. 

Me– she had her assistant there who also gave me space but was one person she was watching, me. And my doula, who also had been to hundreds of births and was focused on me. Right? So if you think about it logistically, which place am I going to get the better care where skilled and caring providers are taking care of multiple people at once or where skilled and caring providers are only focused on me? I think that’s pretty easy to see. Why did I feel so safe? Well, I had the resources. 

Suzzie: My degree is in economics so I think about systems a lot. I often think, “How do we scale that so everybody can have that one-on-one attention?” I don’t have the answer to that question, but I do know that as a woman, you can choose which system you want to be a part of when you choose your care provider and when you choose either your midwife or OB. I’ve worked with both that are great. It’s not that you can only choose a midwife or you can only choose an OB, but you do have to build a strong relationship with them. 

It does make sense if you are advocating for yourself to make decisions where you will be the priority when you are in labor because as a laboring mom, I think we all deserve that. 

Unfortunately, at this time, we still have to opt ourselves into those systems. I know here in Seattle, I just did a comparison of all of our hospitals and their C-section rates for first-time, low-risk moms having head-down babies and the difference is really staggering. There’s one hospital where first-time, low-risk moms– over 35% of moms are having surgeries and that same category literally 20 minutes away, the C-section rate is only 20%. 

So if you are thinking about, “Okay, my priority is I want to be safe and in a hospital and avoid a C-section, one of those hospitals is going to be more equipped and have better systems and structures in place to help you with that goal.” 

Of course, it’s not a guarantee. There’s always risk that exists in birth. It’s one of those things we have to come to terms with, but we can make choices that help us one way or the other. 

Meagan: Yes. I love that you said that. Okay, we want to go to the hospital, but let’s really figure out what place is best for our needs. 

36:23 Birth preparation tips

Meagan: So as a childbirth educator, you’ve now gone through an unplanned Cesarean. What do you suggest to do before birth in general? No matter what type of birth you are planning for, what are a couple of tips you have? I think that could probably even be one of them. Find your support team. Find your system. Find the right location. 

But yeah, do you have any others that you would say would be a top tip from you?

Suzzie: Yeah. Yeah. I actually have a little pyramid of these are the factors of building a healthy pregnancy that I try to lead by my mom’s theory. I think a lot of times there’s– okay, I’ll say with me for my first birth. The reason I didn’t do a childbirth class, the reason I was opting out was partly because I already experienced trauma and had a lot of emotions that I was avoiding. 

But also, because I also had a mindset of “leave it to the experts” which for me, birth really moved me into and really was the thing that made me become aware of what my needs really were. 

But now that I teach about birth, yes. Monitoring and treating is a crucial part of a healthy pregnancy and it’s important to get a care provider you care about. We’ve talked about that. Childbirth education– there was a study published in 2020 that talked about, okay. If you’re trying to avoid a C-section, let’s look at moms who took a childbirth class before giving birth and those who didn’t. For the moms that took a class, the C-section rate was about 80% which, I think we can do better and we should expect better than that, but on the flipside, the moms who didn’t take a class was only 58% so that’s not much more than flipping a coin. 

Childbirth education makes a difference. 

Meagan: Wait, the people who did take the class had a higher Cesarean rate or a lower? 

Suzzie: No, no, no, no. The people that did not take a class was 58%. So if you don’t take a class, it’s almost like me. I didn’t take a class. I made that mistake. It’s not that different than flipping a coin. 

After that, you really have to nourish yourself. Pregnancy nutrition is a lot different than what most of us were taught. When I learned about nutrition in pregnancy, there was a lot of unlearning and new habits I had to build. There is a really good book, Real Food for Pregnancy, by Lily Nichols. I love that book and her trainings are inside my class and what my class teaches basically. 

Meagan: I have it right here in my hand. 

Suzzie: Yeah. Yeah. And after that, prepping your body. Movement and exercise have so many benefits for labor. Also doing some body balancing work because one of the things that as a doula when I’m looking at, “Okay, when people are having weird contraction patterns or babies that don’t seem to be doing their little rotation dance or not progressing even though they are having contractions,” the three things we are looking at are your passenger. Is your baby just doing something funny or is there a really short cord? Something completely out of your control. Is it the power? Is it how strong your contractions are or is it your pelvis? A lot of the time, the answer is that it’s your pelvis so we have to come in with movements and muscle releases and you can do the chiropractic care throughout pregnancy and it does make a difference in preventing those not common but when you hear people having three-hour labors, that is often, often, often a pelvis thing. 

So for me, if I have a mom that’s having those contractions 10 or 15 minutes apart and they are not getting closer, I know we’ve got to get in there and do some things to help and usually we can resolve that with movement. 

Dealing with stress and anxiety is a part of labor. It’s actually the work of pregnancy. It’s to understand that you have anxiety about this because you should because it is one of the biggest and most important things we have and getting help with that, connecting with others, building your community, and then nourishing your purpose because when I look at my friends and the women I work with, some of us connect very quickly to the idea of being mothers. It’s been in our minds and in our hearts since we were little, and some of us just don’t. 

Or some of us get pregnant and we don’t feel that magical connection that we thought we were supposed to have. That’s actually okay. It doesn’t mean anything is wrong. It means that we have an opportunity to start nourishing and developing what it means to us to go through this process and deliver a baby and to raise a human being and what our role is and to build purpose in that which is really important. 

I always think that when we are talking about how to build a healthy pregnancy. If you leave any of those out, we are selling ourselves or the people we work with short by not providing resources in all of those different categories. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love the pyramid concept. We have to care for ourselves and we have to do these things for ourselves. I think so many times, we push some of those things aside and we deserve to do these things for our bodies, our minds, our mental health, and everything. We deserve to fuel our bodies with good nutrition. 

I also love Lily Nichols. We’ve had her on the podcast. I have her books for gestational diabetes and Real Food for Pregnancy. We are big lovers of Needed and we talk about, okay. We know we are busy. We know that nutrition has changed over the years and get the supplements that you need. Do what you need to do to fuel your body as a whole and then also do all of those other steps so we walk in. 

Sometimes we may do everything in this pyramid. We may do every single thing and then something doesn’t happen the way we want or we still have an unexpected situation, but we can walk in knowing that our pyramid is strong and then go through the motions. 

43:29 Knowing what questions to ask

Meagan: Earlier, we were talking about asking questions and not being scared of that. Ask a childbirth educator, how do you educate on being confident in asking those questions? I feel like as a doula, I’m always talking about, “Ask questions. Ask questions.” If you have a doula there, they can help facilitate this, but sometimes, we don’t have doulas there. So how can we really hone in on making sure that we are in a place to ask questions? 

Suzzie: Yeah. Yeah. I think the really hard thing when it comes to birth is when I think about myself as a first-time mom, that I didn’t know enough to know what questions to ask. Right? You get thrown into that impossible situation. I know in my birth class, my birth class is online, but also, every single person who goes through that birth class gets two one-on-one appointments with me to go over their birth plan to talk a really good picture about how they really feel about birth. 

It’s okay to want a natural birth and it’s okay to say, “I don’t like pain. I want an epidural as soon as possible.” There are different approaches and there are different conversations you should have with your provider each time. A lot of time, I feel like the induction question is coming up more and more and more often, so a lot of times, that second prenatal ends up being like, “Okay, how do I navigate a conversation about induction because I’m trying to figure out how I feel about it and I’m also trying to figure out how to navigate maybe differences in risk aversion or things like that with a care provider?” 

One, I would say talk to somebody who has some knowledge and ask them what questions to ask if you are not sure. You can talk to– there’s no limit to the number of people that you can talk to and everyone will have their opinion and you can take what works for you and throw the rest away. 

The other side of that is also journaling and getting really clear on what a healthy birth looks like to you or what your ideal birth looks like because it’s very possible that you and a care provider have different definitions of what that is. If you can communicate what you want really well, I always suggest when people write their birth plan to think about everything that is important to you and summarize it in 1-3 sentences. Put that at the top of your birth plan because the rest of your birth plan is just logistics, but if you can communicate who you are and if you’ve chosen somebody that you trust, the most likely outcome then is that they see your birth plan and then they ask you the right questions and they help you navigate what you would need to know because they know, “Okay. You are a person that really wants to try the most natural thing first” or “Your big worry is about tearing.” 

Now they know to filter the conversations that they are having with you through these different priorities that you have. If they don’t know your priorities, they can’t do that. So just setting yourself up so that even if you’re the one who doesn’t know because you are new to birth and you are having your first-time experience, be clear about who you are so that your providers can help fill the gap. 

I truly believe that if you have taken the time to find a provider or a location whose values somewhat line up with yours, it doesn’t have to be perfect, then that will be enough for most people. It’s when we can’t communicate who we are or when we are in environments where clearly the priorities are just completely misaligned where I see breakdowns in that, but I think most providers care deeply about what they do and who they serve. But every mom that comes in is different so if they don’t know what makes you special, they can’t treat you special. Right?

 

Meagan: Right. Yeah. Such a powerful message. Thank you so much for coming and sharing with us. There are so many little nuggets. I feel like we didn’t even have time to talk about fear releases before you walk in. If you get pregnant, do a fear release. If you are entering things, do a fear release. Journal. Find those fears so you can start navigating them and eliminating them along the way. 

48:18 Waters being broken for 24 hours

Meagan: I wanted to talk about water breaking for 24 hours. Just because your water has been broken for 24 hours, Women of Strength, that does not mean you have to have a C-section. 

Suzzie: Can I actually tell a story about that? 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Suzzie: I know you are wrapping up, but I’ll just say this really quick. The biggest risk with water infection that you will hear is that it could potentially lead to an infection. 

Meagan: Yeah, potentially. 

Suzzie: I will tell you that with all of the moms I have worked with, I have only had one mom have an infection and she got it within hours actually. As her water broke, she already had the infection because, by the time she got to the hospital, she already had a fever. So again, monitoring and treating is important. It’s not that it can’t exist. 

On the other hand, when I was early in my career as a doula, I got to work with this incredible mom. Her priority was, “I don’t want interventions at all.” Her water broke and we were like, “Okay. How are we going to deal with this?” She went in regularly for non-stress tests and she went almost three days. No infection, nothing. She went into labor and had a super quick, super healthy baby. 

These obscure rules say, “Oh, at 24 hours, risk increases.” No, it doesn’t. There are different things that can happen. It’s important to monitor. It’s important to treat an infection. Most moms are safe. If you look at the research, it’s totally fine to go way longer than that for most moms. 

Meagan: We have a mom on the podcast. She’s actually one of my clients. She went five days with her water broken and had a VBA2C birth. Beautiful birth. 

Suzzie: That’s amazing. 

Meagan: No infection, no issues. It’s so hard for me to hear, “Oh, your water’s been broken.” I’ve been there. My water was broken for 12 hours and they were like, “Nope. Water’s been broken for 12 hours. You're not doing well.” I was doing fine. “Your baby’s not progressing or coming down. Your body is not progressing.” It was just that I had a completely unnecessary Cesarean but I didn’t know. I didn’t know to ask the questions. 

50:31 Checking in if labor stalls

Meagan: Yeah and remembering to let your baby navigate its way down the pelvis. Let them help you and know that sometimes it is that tension release. Sometimes it is putting knees in versus out or turning on your side. The pelvis really molds and shifts around and rotates and shifts and babies’ heads mold. Together they work and they can come out so if you were told that your pelvis was too small or your baby was too big or you would never get a baby out of your pelvis or if you had a Cesarean for failure to descend or failure to progress, know that that does not mean it’s going to happen the next time. 

Learn. Navigate. Learn optimal positioning. Do chiropractic care. Do these things. Find the support because also something I heard in your first story is everything was going, going, going. You walked into a space where you didn’t feel safe and everything stopped. 

Suzzie: Exactly. 

Meagan: That is what can happen. Our bodies and minds are so powerful that we have the ability to stop labor. Have you ever thought of that? That is incredible. We have the ability to stop our labor. 

Suzzie: I know. The body is wild. 

Meagan: So sometimes, I also wanted to drop just a little tip on if we are having progression issues, we are having really hard, strong contractions, but our progress isn’t necessarily showing the result that we would think that the pattern and strength would be giving, let’s tune in. Let’s tune into those babies’ rotations and all of those things. The fears, the thoughts, and what’s happening in our minds, or if we are having that failure to progress and all of a sudden, our labor just out of nowhere slows down or even stops, let’s check in. Let’s do a fear release right there. Let’s do a mental health check. Let’s figure out what is going on because a lot of the time it is that we are not feeling safe. We are not feeling supported. We are not feeling heard. We are doubting ourselves for whatever reason. There are so many things. 

You walked into a situation where you were made to feel bad for making a choice that felt right. 

Suzzie: Right. 

Meagan: That is just what is not okay, but that is what could easily stop our labor. So do a little check-in, ladies. If you are in this position or you were in that position, honestly go back and say, “Okay. My labor stopped. What was happening? What was I feeling?” Check into that and journal it. I love that you suggested journaling. Journaling is so amazing. Let’s journal our progress and our process in this journey. 

Okay, well obviously we could talk for a long time and maybe we should just do a part two, but I will let you go. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your stories and your knowledge. I’m just going to hold onto this pyramid. I love the pyramid aspect. I really, really love that. I think that is something that is really powerful. Thank you again so much for joining us. 

Suzzie: Thank you. All right, bye. 

Meagan: Bye. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Cesareans can be peaceful, beautiful, and so healing. Though Alexis didn’t have the VBAC she planned for, she still had the euphoric birth she dreamed of. 

Alexis unexpectedly experienced PPROM and preeclampsia at 36 weeks with her first baby. Trying to labor and push under the effects of magnesium and all of the other interventions was incredibly exhausting. When baby started having decels, she knew it was time for the Cesarean. 

After a rough NICU stay and having to exclusively pump, Alexis knew she needed to be proactive about healing from her birth PTSD. She went to EMDR therapy and found the healing her heart needed. 

Alexis shares all of the ways her second birth was different from the first. She went into labor spontaneously. She progressed quickly and felt strong. But when baby flipped breech mid-labor, Alexis knew it was time for another Cesarean. Her team took their time honoring every wish Alexis had and truly gave her the birth of her dreams!

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:05 Review of the Week

05:29 Alexis’ first pregnancy during COVID

09:41 PPROM and preeclampsia 

13:27 Pushing turned emergent Cesarean

16:54 NICU stay and exclusive pumping

20:45 EMDR therapy and postpartum healing 

22:24 Second pregnancy

26:21 Beginning of labor

29:47 A picture-perfect labor

31:26 Baby flipping breech and going for a C-section

38:03 The game changer

40:56 A euphoric birth

43:45 Ways to have a gentle Cesarean

46:36 Music, skin-to-skin, clear drapes, mirrors, conversation, and maternal-assisted Cesareans

50:32 Vaginal seeding, advocacy, and backward dilation

52:29 Swelling in pregnancy and nutrition

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. Today’s episode is one that I am actually really excited to hear and share. I think a lot of the time when we are listening to The VBAC Link, we are looking for empowering VBAC stories, positive VBAC stories, and sometimes when we are sharing these stories, it is accompanied by traumatic Cesareans. We know that through all of these stories, I have personal experiences that a lot of these Cesareans are traumatic, and a lot of the time they are traumatic because they are undesired or they are pushed really hard or people feel like they are backed in a corner or so many interventions come into play that they happen in a traumatic manner. 

But today’s story is going to talk a little bit about how Cesarean doesn’t have to be traumatic and it can be peaceful. I relate personally to it because my second C-section, I didn’t want actually. I didn’t want it at all. It wasn’t what I planned on, but I still found so much healing through that birth and I think that in a lot of ways, it shifted my mindset of how to view Cesarean. 

I also want to recognize that our community doesn’t always want a VBAC, right? We are here learning about the options for birth after Cesarean but that doesn’t mean we only want VBAC so I’m excited to share this story today for everybody, especially for those who are unsure of what to do or want to maybe go the Cesarean route but want to have maybe a better experience than their last Cesarean. We’re going to talk about how to have a peaceful Cesarean. 

We have our friend, Alexis, with us today going to be sharing her peaceful journey with you. 

02:05 Review of the Week 

But of course, we have a Review of the Week, so I want to dive into that and then turn the time over to her. This is from Apple Podcasts and it says lilylalalala. Lots of la la la. It says, “Inspiring and uplifting.” It says, “I first found this podcast in 2020 in the depths of the postpartum after a very traumatic, unplanned Cesarean with my first baby. I listened to every single episode as I struggled to process what had happened to me. I finally gathered up the courage to seek help for postpartum PTSD that I was experiencing. 

“This podcast is a treasure trove for inspiring stories which helped me regain confidence in my body to have a beautiful VBAC with my second baby last year. Thank you for being such a huge part of my healing journey.” 

I feel like so often, we hear little things like, “Oh, I loved hearing it” or “That was inspirational” or “That helped me learn the knowledge” but I love hearing that it was a part of the healing journey. It healed. That is so amazing. Thank you so much lilylalalala for sharing your review. 

If you haven’t yet, you guys, we would love your review on the podcast. You can review our Instagram or our Facebook community. Give us a review of The VBAC Link. You can leave your review at Google. You can just Google “The VBAC Link” and leave a review there. You can leave a review on the Apple Podcasts. I’m pretty sure you can on Google Play. Or guess what? You can even email us at info@thevbaclink.com subject “Review” and leave us your review there. 

05:29 Alexis’ first pregnancy during COVID

Meagan: Okay. I am so excited for you to share with us today. Remind me. Okay, so we are going to be talking about preeclampsia, EMDR therapy which I think is something that is super powerful. We are going to be talking about repeat Cesarean and it can be better. Yeah. Anything else that you’re like, “This is what my story is going to touch on?” 

Alexis: NICU time also. We had some NICU time. That was a big part of my postpartum experience. Yeah. 

Meagan: Okay. Yes. Okay, well without further ado, I would love to turn the time over to you to share your story. 

Alexis: Thank you. Yeah. There is a lot that goes into this story, a lot of different factors that made my first experience really hard, but I got to learn so much through it and I’ve been able to help a lot of other friends and family just through my experience so I’m super excited to share my story with everybody. 

Meagan: Can you remind us where you are at as well? Where you are located? 

Alexis: Yes, Joplin, Missouri. 

Meagan: Missouri. 

Alexis: Yep, so southwest Missouri. We are originally from Oklahoma City. My husband and I have lived here for six or seven years now and we call it home. Yeah. We got married in 2017 and we were about ready to have a baby around this time the pandemic hit so fun timing there. I’m sure a lot of mamas can relate to that. I think that’s a lot of our story. 

We got pregnant at the end of 2020. Things were kind of normalizing but not really medically. I mean, I never saw my OB’s face. We were all wearing masks. My husband couldn’t come to our first appointment because the regulations were still iffy on that. I Facetimed him to hear the heartbeat which was so sad for our first pregnancy.

But as things kind of went on, the rules lessened a little bit, but still, it was COVID. 

We got pregnant really easily. We were so blessed for that experience. 

For the most part, my pregnancy was really healthy. I did have a lot of nausea and morning sickness. That kind of lasted the whole pregnancy and it probably was the reason that my nutrition was so terrible. Nothing sounded good. All I really wanted was french fries so I could never– the smell of our gas oven made me gag so cooking really wasn’t happening. 

Meagan: You’re not alone and that’s one of the reasons why we talk about Needed, our partnership, because there are so many of us who go through this morning sickness and the smell of anything is just barf so we’re not getting those nutrients, right? So we’ve got to try to get them in other ways because we’re not getting them through food because we can’t. 

Alexis: We can’t, yeah. That is totally me. So yeah. My diet was terrible and I didn’t know at the time. Of course, everyone says to eat healthier and a lot of protein, but I’m already not a good eater of protein, and certainly not when I am nauseous, so yeah. My diet was a big factor. I had pretty rapid weight gain and I’m a petite person so that was not normal for me. My midwife really kept an eye on that, but I was still doing CrossFit my whole entire pregnancy somehow. I felt good enough to do that, but yeah. I was probably just wearing my body down. I was not eating well and working out really hard. 

What’s funny is I was working out because it is proven to decrease your chances of getting preeclampsia and that didn’t happen. 

Meagan: Which ended up happening? 

Alexis: Yeah. I was like, “I’m going to be so strong. This birth is going to be so easy. I’m just going to squat down on the floor and pop this baby out, no problem.” 

Meagan: I love your confidence, though. That is important in any birth. The confidence in your body’s ability is wonderful. 

Alexis: For sure. I think that because I was working out so hard, maybe my pelvic floor is tighter. I’ll get into all of that. Anyway, that was the pregnancy. Everything was good and healthy. I didn’t have any other issues. 

09:41 PPROM and preeclampsia 

But around 30 weeks, I started swelling really badly. It was a summer pregnancy, so no one really thought anything of it. I knew it was unusual for me. It was a lot of swelling. My midwife was keeping an eye on it. I never had high blood pressure and no protein in my urine. There were no markers and technically, I think according to what ACOG says, swelling isn’t a red flag necessarily for preeclampsia. I think they won’t diagnose you unless, of course, it’s blood pressure and protein. No one was worried about it. 

Yeah. We were just trucking along. Everything is good, just extremely swollen. My husband travels for work all of the time during the summer so one night, he had gotten back that day and I was about 36 weeks on the dot. He got back that day from California and I woke up in the night to go to the bathroom and sit up in bed and I felt a little bit of a gush. I was like, “That’s weird.” 

I get up and go to the bathroom. Toilet paper is a little bit pink, watery-tinged so I kind of knew immediately. It smelled different. I knew something was up. I’m calling for my husband to come in there. He is very confused. At 36 weeks, we did not expect that. The chances of your water breaking are less than 10% or something? 

Meagan: They say 10% or less, yeah, especially before labor begins. You had PPROM and then there is PROM so premature rupture of membranes, PROM, and then premature birth. 

Alexis: Yeah, so never did I ever think that my water would break and that would be the start of my labor. I knew those facts and I had done a lot of research. I was really well-educated before I had my son. I just– we are all really good birthers and really good parents before we do it. So yeah. My water breaks. I call the midwife. It was my midwife on call which gave me a lot of reassurance too and she just said, “Go ahead and come in since your water broke. It sounds like that’s exactly what happened.” 

Looking back now, that was such a God thing because my plan was that I wanted to go unmedicated. I planned on laboring at home for as long as possible, but my water breaking just messed up my mind and shifted all of my plans. That wasn’t a part of my plan, so I was like, “Oh, okay. I’ll go in. Sure.” I didn’t think twice about it. 

When we arrived at the hospital, I felt fine. I had no headaches. I had no vision changes. I felt fine. My blood pressure was I think 200/110. It was insanely high. It was so bad. The nurse was like, “Oh, maybe you’re just excited. We’ll retake it.” We retook it. It was still crazy high and really dangerous. 

They started the magnesium drip and for any of you girlies who have ever done that, it is a nightmare. 

Meagan: Yuck. 

Alexis: I felt terrible. It makes you feel like you have the flu. I threw up the whole labor. I just was seeing double so anytime a doctor or nurse would come in, I would have to cover up one eye to be able to look at them because I couldn’t see straight. 

I basically could not get out of bed. We had to do an epidural immediately to drop that blood pressure so I was totally bed-bound. The nurses were super helpful with moving me around, so I basically was just side to side on a peanut ball for 20 hours. 

I had felt some contractions leading up as we were driving to the hospital, but nothing super strong. After a while, my midwife suggested some Pitocin which wasn’t a part of my plan. Again, I wanted to go unmedicated. I wanted to have a super crunchy, awesome birth and I have now had every medication under the sun. 

13:27 Pushing turned emergent Cesarean

Alexis: We start some Pitocin. That gets some contractions going. I didn’t mention this. I arrived, I think at a 3 or a 4 when we got to the hospital so not a bad place to start at 36 weeks especially. 

But yeah, we go through laboring in bed, on my back, on my side. Of course, feeling the pains of labor and contractions in addition to magnesium just felt terrible. I didn’t do the research about positions or what I should be doing. I didn’t have a doula so that’s a big part of it too. 

But I do progress to 10. Things kind of move along over these 20 hours and we start pushing. I could tell you on that first push, I had the thought, “I need to have a C-section.” I was so exhausted before I really even began pushing just from being awake for 20 hours. That was such an exhausting, long, hard labor. I could not. I had no energy left. 

The midwife that was there tried a lot of different pushing positions. We did tug of war. I actually got on my hands and knees. She was really great about helping me with pushing, but I had no gas in the tank. I was so exhausted. I don’t know what my son’s position was either. I don’t know how high he was. No one ever told me what station he was at. I remember thinking, “Is station just a silly thing people say on Instagram and it’s not real?” Because no nurses have mentioned his station. Should I ask? I didn’t want to feel stupid. 

Ask all of the questions. It is your birth. 

Meagan: 100%. 

Alexis: Ask. If you are wondering, ask. It’s your body. I don’t know why I felt afraid to ask what station or what my dilation was all of the time when they would check me. They just didn’t tell me which was really weird. 

I pushed for two hours in every position under the sun and eventually, he started to have some heart decels so the OB on call rushed in pretty quickly. He told me it was time to go to a C-section. I, like I said, was kind of ready for it at this point. It was not my plan, but I wasn’t going to put my baby at risk so I was like, “Okay. Let’s do it.” 

We go back to a pretty urgent C-section. This was all also, perhaps more traumatic for my husband. I was so out of it with all of the medication and so tired and you are already in labor land anyway, so you don’t remember it all. 

He relayed this all to me later and he was way more affected by it and that’s such a big part of our story too is him. He’s left in a room alone. They take me back. He does get to come in. I didn’t have to be put under or anything, but that’s got to be so scary as a spouse. You hear that things are dangerous. They take you out and now you’re just waiting. 

Meagan: Yep, having no idea what’s going on. 

Alexis: Yeah, he had no idea if I was okay or if the baby was okay. The C-section itself was actually fine. Everything went well. I was just loopy and out of it from everything I had been on so I don’t remember it that well, but when they got my son out, his APGAR was a 2. He was not doing great. 

They had to do some resuscitation so that was just scary. As he came out just not really responding, but he did start to cry. His APGAR came up on that second check and everything was fine at that point. We also didn’t find out gender so what a way to find out your gender was that moment. We were so scared. It was like, “That’s great. He’s a boy. We don’t care.” We just wanted him to be okay. 

16:54 NICU stay and exclusive pumping

Alexis: Yeah. They get him in a good spot breathing and crying. All is well. I did fine. The C-section was not– that wasn’t the traumatic part for me. I got closed up. I don’t remember honestly anything after this point. I don’t know if I fell asleep. Maybe it was just blocked out of my mind, but we eventually got back to our room. 

They take my son to the nursery and I don’t remember anyone asking us about that. My husband doesn’t either. I’m sure I was not in a good place. My blood pressure was still through the roof. It wasn’t a great time for skin-to-skin. I understand that, but looking back, it’s just really sad that I didn’t really see him. I didn’t meet him then for two days after. My blood pressure was so high, I couldn’t get out of bed from the morning after he was born until about 11:00 at night. 

Around 6:00 AM, his pediatrician came in and his blood sugar was low so he had to be sent to the NICU. Now we are in separate jails across the hall from each other because he was in the NICU. They wouldn’t let me get out of bed because my blood pressure was just not controlled. It was so bad. So I didn’t meet my son for two days. That’s kind of where– 

Meagan: I’m so sorry. 

Alexis: –the trauma. Labor was traumatic. The C-section was fine and then postpartum was really traumatic as well. That’s kind of my story. Eventually, my blood pressure starts to respond to medication and I’m able to go meet him, but seeing your baby hooked up to cords and a feeding tube is awful. It’s terrible. 

That was really his only issue though. He didn’t have any breathing problems, thank goodness as a 36-weeker. His only issue was blood sugar and feeding. He was just a sleepy guy. He was not taking the bottle. He wasn’t really vigorous at the breast. We had lactation consultants come in, but it wasn’t super helpful when you’re in the tizzy of NICU. 

The NICU is not set up for breastfeeding success. 

Meagan: It’s not. 

Alexis: You’re on a 3-hour schedule. You don’t feed on demand. You need to measure how long and how much they are eating. That is not how breastfeeding works. We feed on demand. We do skin-to-skin. I just didn’t know at the time. I was like, “Oh, every three hours. Okay.” 

I’m pumping. I didn’t nurse him a ton in the NICU just because it wore him out so much. It’s a lot of work to breastfeed so we were like, “If you can take a bottle and we can get out of here faster, do it.” So I was pumping. 

Eventually, after eight days, we were able to bust out of there. Feeding was the only thing he had to get over. When we went home, I was still pumping. I would offer the breast, but I was so unsure of it and so overwhelmed with it all. I ended up just exclusively pumping because now, looking back, I can see postpartum anxiety 100%. I was afraid if he wasn’t eating enough, they would stick him back in the NICU which would not have happened. They would have done other things before that. It was not emergent, but that is what anxiety tells you. 

Meagan: I was going to say that anxiety tells you things that aren’t necessarily true. 

Alexis: Exactly. 

Meagan: We are in a state where that’s what we believe. 

Alexis: Exactly. My husband and I were both so overwhelmed and traumatized from the NICU that it was just easier for us to pump. I remember going back to my six-week appointment and my midwife was like, “How’s breastfeeding going?” I told her, “I’m exclusively pumping.” She was like, “Oh my gosh. That is much harder.” 

Meagan: That’s a lot of work. 

Alexis: I was like, “No, you don’t get it. It’s not harder.” When your baby won’t latch and they are crying on the breast, it is so stressful. No, no. This is not harder. But it is exhausting. It’s so much work. I did it for a year. I’m very proud of that, pumping is not for the faint of heart.

Yeah, that was kind of his whole experience. It was just really overwhelming is what I would say. We didn’t really know what we were doing and the preeclampsia of it all was so scary. It’s such a serious thing that I wasn’t super duper-educated on what that could look like. 

Meagan: Right. 

20:45 EMDR therapy and postpartum healing 

Alexis: After his birth, I just really tried to dive into therapy, and my husband too. We just wanted to work through that because we knew we wanted more kids. I already knew I wanted a VBAC. Immediately, I was like, “This was never my plan to have a C-section so we are going for a VBAC.” I was a great candidate for it. 

We plugged forward. I did EMDR therapy which I cannot recommend enough. It literally retrains your brain to hop off a thought and get on a healthier track of thinking. My main objective with my therapist was my anxiety around blood pressure because, to me, it felt like blood pressure was something I couldn’t necessarily control. You can do things to support your body like diet and supplements and all of these things, but some of us just have chronic high blood pressure or white coat syndrome which was totally me. 

So I just wanted to eliminate that piece of it if I could and just calm myself down before appointments, not get stressed about it, and not add more to my plate of trying to be healthy for this next pregnancy. I just wanted to do that work before I even got pregnant. 

I went through EMDR therapy surrounding blood pressure and also just working through my birth and kind of getting to a place where even if that same exact birth happened again, I would have more peace about it because you don’t know how it’s going to go. The chances of having preeclampsia again the second time are higher than a first birth for anybody else. It could have gone the same way. You don’t know, but I just wanted to be prepared to have a better experience, a better bonding experience with my baby, and a better birth. 

22:24 Second pregnancy

That really got me to a healthy place. Around the time I was wrapping that up, I got pregnant with my daughter about two years later. I had just done this whole time in between kids and listened to as many VBAC Link episodes as I could. I tried to diversify the information that I was taking in too so a lot of the Evidence-Based Birth, also Dr. Fox’s podcast is a really great one for a little bit of a different perspective. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Alexis: He’s an MFM. He’s been on this podcast and has a very different perspective. He has seen it all so he’s going to be a little bit more conservative with allowing any patient to VBAC or any type of “complication”. It’s a really good perspective to add to the mix if you are looking for it. 

I just filled my brain with as many birth stories and as much research as I could. I did everything I could to avoid preeclampsia this time. I ate as close as I could to the Brewer diet. It’s so hard if you’ve ever tried to eat exactly the Brewer diet. It feels impossible at least for me so I just did my best. I tried to eat a lot of protein and started my day with a lot of protein just trying to diversify my diet because I did not do that the first time. 

Also supplements, so any research that I found, I would take the supplement. So low-dose aspirin, I was on that from the beginning. I took magnesium-glycinate every night. Melatonin– I saw a study that shows a direct link between low levels of melatonin in preeclampsia. Vitamin C is to the strength of your bag of water so I took that every night. My water did not break so I don’t know. That worked for me. I also was a little bit anemic during my first pregnancy so I took a grass-fed beef liver supplement and I had no issues with my iron this time either. 

Just a lot of different things to support my body so I’m like, “I’m giving you the best opportunity, body, to have a healthy pregnancy and that’s all I can do.” You’ve got to throw your hands up at some point and just say, “I did everything I could.” That’s what I did. I switched hospitals because I felt like going back to the same hospital would be kind of traumatic. 

Meagan: It can be triggering. 

Alexis: Exactly. I switched OBs. I switched to– a friend of mine had an OB who had a really low C-section rate. I think the lowest in the hospital and then also with her, she pushed for three hours. He really, really fought for her vaginal birth because he knew she did not want to have a C-section. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Alexis: I thought, “That’s the type of doctor that I want.” So I went with him. He was really supportive the whole time. I hired a doula as soon as I could and that was a really great tool as well. Webster-certified chiropractor and all of the things. I just tried to throw everything at it that I could. 

Alexis: Everything was great. Super healthy. I had no issues again this time. My blood pressure was looking really normal, then a little bit toward the end at the end of 27 weeks-ish, I found out she was breech, my daughter. My chiropractor was on top of it. She was like, “I swear. I have a 97% success rate of flipping babies. I won’t say I flip babies, but I give them the space to flip.” Yeah, so I felt confident in that. My doctor had checked. She turned head down later on so everything was good there. 

A thing that I’ll say now is my husband and I had prayed my whole entire pregnancy if we were going to have a repeat C-section, let it be because of breech presentation. I’ll get back to that, but that was just something. I’m not against a C-section. I’m against a traumatic birth and everything that we went through. I just don’t want to have that experience. Birth is birth. C-section or vaginal birth. You are having this amazing, incredible experience and C-section is not the enemy. Traumatic birth is the enemy. That is what we were hoping for, but she was head down so we were like, “Okay. This is our sign. We’re going for it. This VBAC is going to work. It’s going to be awesome.” 

26:21 Beginning of labor

Alexis: As we got to the end, I was cool with cervical checks. That was something I was just kind of curious about. I wanted to know where I was at because my doctor was pretty anti-induction which is great. I just wanted to know where I was at by the end to see if we could do some sort of natural induction method. 

At 36 weeks, I think I was at 1.5 and then at 37 weeks, I was at a 2. I opted for a membrane sweep. My plan was, “I’m accepting. There is a small risk of infection or them breaking your water but it is a small, small risk.” You just have to weigh the pros and cons. For all of us who are VBACing, there is a risk of rupture. There is a risk of all kinds of things. You have to decide what is right for you. The risk of a membrane sweep was so worth it to me because if he wasn’t going to induce me, let’s do something natural that can get things going. 

So for me, I was going to do it every week. I had my first membrane sweep at 37 and 6 then I went into labor the next morning. It worked. I didn’t notice anything that day really. I didn’t have any bleeding which they usually tell you you could. I really didn’t feel any cramps or anything after so I was like, “Oh, well. It didn’t work. Whatever.” 

I get up for work the next morning and basically, as soon as I was vertical for the day, I was feeling contractions. Everyone says just ignore early labor. Pretend it’s not happening so that’s just what I did. I went to work and had a normal day. Around lunchtime, I was like, “I’m just going to time these and see where we are at.” They were every three minutes really consistently but lasting 30 seconds. 

They never changed from that rhythm. It was three minutes all day long and intensified throughout the day. I finished my work day. I picked up my son. I went home. My mom was coming up just for a visit and that ended up working out very well. I got home and things really intensified. I was on the ball just tracking things.

Again, I was like, “Once I go to bed, these are going to go away. I’m 38 weeks on the dot. I’m not having this baby. I’m not that lucky.” But they just kept coming, so they intensified and intensified. They got longer. They were still three minutes apart. That rhythm never changed from start to finish. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Alexis: Yeah, so around 10:00, I got in the bath because I was like, “I’m going to sleep tonight. I’m going to take a bath and make these things putter out and then I’ll have a peaceful night of sleep and go on for another week.” 

Alexis: The bath felt amazing. That really helped me to relax. I listened to some Christian HypnoBirthing tracks and then my husband and I decided we would go to bed. If something pops off, I’ll wake my mom up. She’s got my toddler and we will head to the hospital. But I was sure that things were just going to stop as they often do in early labor. They didn’t. 

As I was trying to lay there, I went from around– I think we went to bed around 11:00 up until we went to the hospital at 2:30 AM. By that point, I was breathing through them, really feeling them. This was real. I had been letting my doula know, “This is what’s going on.” A few hours before that, she was like, “Okay, let’s give in an hour. If it doesn’t lessen, then we need to start thinking about going to the hospital.” She was two hours away, so she had quite a drive. 

We were really on top of it and around 2:30 that morning, my husband was like, “Okay, no. We’re done. Let’s go.” He did not like seeing me that way. I probably would have gone a little bit longer if it was just me but he was not on board with suffering all night. 

29:47 A picture-perfect labor

Alexis: We headed to the hospital and I was stressed. Am I going too soon? You hear so many stories where contractions are so intense and you get there and you are not dilated at all or something. We get to the hospital in triage. They checked me and I’m at a 3. I’m like, “Okay, cool. That’s great.” They hold you for an hour and check you again. If you progress, then they will keep you.” They checked again in an hour and I’m at a 4. 

We get checked in and at that exact same time, my doula had arrived from her two-hour drive through the night. Things felt so picture-perfect. What lucky girl would go into labor at 38 weeks? Going past your due date is so very normal. I felt like an anomaly even though I had an early birth the first time. I just never thought I would go into labor or that it would work and that I would have a spontaneous labor and that things would progress so easily. I didn’t need Pitocin or anything. I felt so thrilled that things were going so well. 

After having such a birth where everything that could go wrong goes wrong, a birth that is just normal feels like you have won the lottery. That’s how I felt the whole labor. Dealing with contractions, I knew how to breathe through them. I never sat down in the bed. That did not feel good and I knew that wasn’t helpful so I was on my feet. I did a lot of slow dancing and squatting. I would pedal my feet. That felt really good. Things just progressed on their own. It felt magical. This labor is just happening. My blood pressure is perfect even. It just all felt so perfect. I felt euphoric during labor. It was just the most amazing thing to experience going through labor like that. 

31:26 Baby flipping breech and going for a C-section

Alexis: I mentioned I was at a 4 when we got to stay. We got checked in at around 3:30 AM. They checked me two or three hours later. I was like, “I’m done. This is terrible. I want the epidural.” I planned on getting the epidural just because my issue the first time with pushing was maternal exhaustion so I was like, “I want to be able to give my body the rest it needs so I am all for the epidural at a certain point once we are sure we are in active labor.”

I was ready for the epidural. I was like, “Forget this. Get the epidural in here. I’m done. I’m tired.” Of course, in labor land, you have no clue what time it is and it had only been two or three hours. If you had told me that, I would have probably changed my plan, but my body knew. It was time. I got the epidural. They checked me once that had kicked in and I was at an 8.5 after two hours. From a 4 to and 8.5 super fast. We were all shocked so we were like, “Cool. We’re about to have this baby.” 

My nurse was just like, “Okay. Chill out. Let’s labor down.” We were coming up on a shift change with OBs on call in the next few hours and I had a bulging bag as well. My nurse was like, “We will probably, if you are okay with it, break your water and you will be complete at that point. You are very, very close.” So we were like, “Great. Let’s all take a nap and then we’ll do that and then we’ll have a baby.” So smooth. Everything up to this point had been so perfect. That was the plan. I was good with all of those interventions. 

Yeah. My husband, my doula, and I all just conked out for a couple of hours. I also didn’t mention this. I was GBS positive which I think kind of ended up working in my favor because it gave me more time to labor down. I had to finish the antibiotics. They could have rushed in and just broken my water then and there and bada bing, bada boom, tried pushing and maybe I wouldn’t have been quite as ready, but it bought me three or four more hours to finish the antibiotics. They just left me to rest and to labor down. Even that felt like a treat when I was hoping so hard to not have GBS. I had taken the probiotics and everything. It felt like, “Oh no, one thing went wrong,” but for me, it was great. Just another thing that not everything is bad in these situations. It can be positive. 

We were able to just labor down. Then around 7:00 or 8:00 AM, I think the next OB on call came in. We broke my water. It was oh my gosh, the biggest gush I have ever heard. It was so much water. We didn’t measure it or anything so I don’t know if it was unusually a lot. 

Meagan: Abnormal, mhmm. 

Alexis: But it felt like it was a lot. Everyone in the room felt like it was a lot. She went to check me and she was like, “Okay. You’re at a 6 or a 7.” We were all like, “No, what? No. You’re wrong. Try again. That’s not true.” She was like, “This is what I’m feeling. Maybe the nurse had it wrong.” I was like, “No.” I was so sure. I was like, “Absolutely not. No. I’m not a 6 or a 7. What is happening?” 

Then she keeps feeling around and she’s like, “I don’t know that I feel the head. I don’t think this is the head.” I knew immediately. There must have been– I don’t know if there has been a story on this podcast of a baby flipping during labor but I have heard it happen before so I knew in my gut. I was like, “She flipped. That stinker.” 

They bring in the ultrasound machine and sure enough, she had flipped breech after 8.5 centimeters and was breech. This sweet OB was so great and really, really compassionate. She puts her hand on my leg and is like, “I’m so sorry.” She knew I wanted this VBAC. She was like, “I’m so sorry. We don’t have another option. We have to have the C-section.”

Also, for me personally, I was not comfortable with a breech vaginal delivery. The doctor was not well-versed in it. That did not feel safe to me. Again, my goal was a birth that wasn’t traumatic. My goal was not necessarily a VBAC. While at the same time my goal was a VBAC, number one is, “I don’t want to be traumatized. I don’t want my body to be super messed up and hurting after this like I was the first time. I want my baby to be okay.” 

That wasn’t a risk I was willing to take. The C-section felt fine. So back to what I said earlier about if we were going to have a repeat C-section, let it be because of breech presentation. I was like, “Lord,” when she said that. 

Meagan: Very validating I’m sure. 

Alexis: Totally. I had immediate peace about it. My husband rushes over and he was like, “I’m so sorry. Are you okay?” He knew that it was going to be really triggering for me, but I was like, “No, I’m good. This is awesome. We just went through this amazing labor. I was unmedicated until 8.5 centimeters. I felt amazing. I was controlling my pain with my breath. Everything was perfect. Now we’re just going to go for a C-section. That’s fine.” 

I just had such a peace about it. It was slow. We got to really prep for it slowly. I brought all of the nurses in and we had a little meeting about– here’s my birth plan for a repeat C-section. I had prepared that. 

Meagan: Good.

Alexis: I think people think that is going to jinx them. Make the plan. Make the plan because I hope you don’t need it. 

Meagan: Put it in the bag. 

Alexis: Yeah, but if you do need it, it will make your C-section awesome and it did. We went over that repeat C-section plan. The main things were immediate skin-to-skin. I still wanted delayed cord clamping and just the usual stuff but it did not happen with my first C-section so I was like, “Please, please, please can we make skin-to-skin happen? That was my big thing.” 

So yeah. It was slow. It wasn’t obviously an emergent situation. She was just breech and hanging out. We prepped and slowly went back. We were just chatting with the nurses. I felt very awake and aware. They bolused up the epidural and it worked so I didn’t have to be put under this time either thankfully. I told the OB, “Can you talk through the whole surgery?” That would maybe freak some people out to hear, “Okay, I’m cutting into your uterus now,” but I wanted to know. I wanted to feel involved in the birth. I didn’t want to feel like it was happening to me like it did the first time. 

I got to be a part of that. She took my daughter out. She held her up in front of us for what felt like a really, really long time. It was because she was doing other things and letting the umbilical cord pulse. They actually took out the placenta still attached to her– 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Alexis: –which is awesome. 

Meagan: Yeah, pretty rare. 

Alexis: They totally met my wishes of delayed cord clamping. Then my husband got to see the placenta. They brought it over to me to look at. That was something I really wanted too. It was just so peaceful. I felt so a part of it. 

38:03 The game-changer

Alexis: Once they checked her out under the warmer for just a second, I got skin-to-skin for what felt like a really long time. It was awesome. It was so awesome. I never ever would have thought. I was so against another C-section like, “I’ve got a toddler at home.” My recovery the first time– I was not okay at 12 weeks postpartum with him. I did not feel good. I was going back to work after 6 weeks this time. I was like, “We cannot have another C-section this time. Not an option.” That was my attitude. 

Through all the work I did, by the time it happened, I was like, “This rocks. This labor was awesome.” It was such a silly way to have a C-section, but what a cool birth. What a funny story I will tell her whole life, “You flipped at 8.5 centimeters, girl. What were you doing?”

Meagan: Seriously and the fact that you were able to do the labor, go into spontaneous labor, and see these things, see that your body was doing this and having all of that, that also is validating. 

Alexis: Totally. 

Meagan: To have everyone come in, sit down, and be like, “How can we make this special for you? How can we make this a good experience?” That is so empowering and exactly what you said. You can change it to be what may or could have been more traumatic– because honestly looking back, I don’t know if you have ever asked yourself this, but if they didn’t ask you any of those questions, if they didn’t give you any of those opportunities, do you think you’d look at it the same way if they were just like, “We have to go right now”? 

Alexis: Totally. Yeah. It was a game-changer. 

Meagan: Yeah. Everything okay. 

Alexis: We’ve got time. 

Meagan: Let’s talk about this. How can we make this a good experience for this family? I think that is so important. I think sometimes in the medical system, it’s like, once a decision has been made that a Cesarean is going to take place, it’s boom, bang, boom, boom, boom, baby out and it moves too fast when it doesn’t need to. 

Alexis: It’s still birth. 

Meagan: Yes, it’s still birth. Have that conversation and say, “Okay. Your plans just changed a lot. Let’s talk about this.” Or if it’s a transfer from a home birth or a birth center. Let’s embrace what they were wanting, the type of birth they wanted, and still try to help them have a good experience so we have less PTSD in the future. We have less negative opinions of interventions and Cesareans and things like that. 

I think a lot of the negative thoughts that we have are from the negative Cesareans that happen.

Alexis: Yeah. You’ve got to advocate for yourself to get that and also, like I said, my doula was really helpful in reminding me of what I wanted and getting things going.

40:56 A euphoric birth

Alexis: Another piece that I think is cool to think about is– maybe this is weird to some people, but when do you ever get the opportunity to be awake in a surgery? If you’re not in the medical field, think about it that way. What a cool thing. I’m in a OR. I get to see this thing that who else would get to experience being in a surgery and being awake for a surgery? Maybe that is someone’s worst nightmare, but I was one of those people where I couldn’t touch my C-section scar. It freaked me out afterward. I was truly traumatized by it but through all the work I did, I now am in this mental place where I was like, “This is cool. I am a part of this whole experience that is not a vaginal birth and that is disappointing for sure. I still feel like, “Man, that stinks.”

However, I got this other experience and it went really well because I told them what I wanted. I got what I wanted. Afterward, postpartum was truly euphoric. I was even the person that was like, “I don’t want the shot of Pitocin after my vaginal birth because that might jack with the way my body responds with natural oxytocin.” I was that girl, but it’s not all or nothing. I still have those emotions. My body still did the work with my hormones. I bonded immediately with my daughter. It took months with my son because of the trauma. I just didn’t feel those emotions yet. It was really hard for me to bond with him. 

This time, because of this different experience, I was bonded. The skin-to-skin was such a game changer for me. We had a few hours of it. We nursed on and off. Breastfeeding was a breeze this time. I never had a hiccup with it which is so different than my first experience. It was night and day different and I truly don’t feel any sort of regret over not getting my VBAC. I almost feel like I still got it. I got the birth I wanted. I still am so shocked by the story. It’s such a funny thing that happened. Not my plan, but it was an awesome birth. It was so cool. 

Meagan: I love that that is how you describe it. I love it so much and I hope, Women of Strength, if you are listening, and your birth turns in a different way that you weren’t expecting or that you weren’t desiring that you have the support that you have and all of these things to have a better experience. I think too, even with mine, I didn’t want it. I didn’t want it and still in some ways, I’m like, “Why? Why did I have that?” But at the same time, I’m grateful for it. I’m grateful for that experience. 

43:45 Ways to have a gentle Cesarean

Meagan: Okay, let’s talk about a few things. Ways to have a gentle Cesarean. Skin-to-skin, we talked about that right after. Babies can come out and be placed on your chest. They have those big bands where they put all of the monitors on. Sometimes they are straps, but they also have bands. You can ask for that. You wear a tube top. 

Alexis: Oh, that’s cool. 

Meagan: Yeah, so you have them up here. Because when you’re in a C-section, a lot of the time your arms are out straight. Sometimes they are strapped down. 

Alexis: They did do that. I had asked the anesthesiologist. I was like, “I don’t want these. Don’t strap me down.” He explained, “Here’s why. Sometimes your body responds. You don’t want to do it, but your arms reach out and try to stop what’s happening to you, so we’re going to leave these on. They are not tight.” He talked me through why they were that way and after he said that, I was like, “Oh, okay. That’s fine.” He said, “We’ll get you out of them as soon as she’s born. We’ll just do this for now.” I was like, “Okay, that’s fine. That makes sense.” 

Meagan: That’s another cool thing that your anesthesiologist was literally talking to you and breaking it down. But yeah, so a lot of the time our arms are straightforward or even strapped out to the side so they are like, “No, you can’t have skin-to-skin because you’re not going to be able to hold your baby.” 

Alexis: Not true. 

Meagan: That is not true. Ask for the tube top. Buy your own tube top as a backup. You can wear it then they can literally tuck baby right down in and place baby right there on your chest. So if you’re not feeling the strength or you are feeling nauseous but you really want your baby to be on you, they can be right there and your husband can also help or your birth partner can also help support baby right there. 

Skin-to-skin is possible 100%. If for some reason, you are not doing well or you are vomiting or something like that because as a baby comes out, things shift and we can vomit, encourage Dad. Encourage Dad to do skin-to-skin. 

Alexis: That was on our birth plan. 

Meagan: That can be really comforting and healing to see as well. Those are two of the things. Skin-to-skin. We talked about the cord. Keeping the cord attached. A lot of providers will say, “Nope. We have to cut it. There’s a risk of infection because your body is open so we have to cut it quickly and start the next process.” Not necessarily true. We can wait for it to pulse. If for some reason baby is not doing well or maybe there is bleeding or something is going on, they can milk it. They pinch it and they do a mini blood transfusion. They send any blood that is in the cord at the present time to the baby. They pinch it and milk it. 

Alexis: Cool. That’s awesome. 

Meagan: That’s a really good option if you can’t have delayed cord clamping. 

46:36 Music, skin-to-skin, clear drapes, mirrors, conversation, and maternal-assisted Cesareans

Meagan: Okay, so music. You can ask your nurse or anesthesiologist to play music in the room so it’s not just beep beep.

Alexis: They did that when my daughter was born. 

Meagan: You know? So yeah, so have that music. 

Alexis: Write it down too. You’re not going to remember these things in the moment. I had all of these things written down. 

Meagan: You won’t. 

Alexis: If I can’t do skin-to-skin, my husband will. If it’s not written, it might not happen. They’re not going to think you are stupid for having a birth plan. Write it down. 

Meagan: Yes, so true. When I went for my first VBAC with my second baby, something I said is, “I just want to see it. I just want to see my baby come out.” That was so important to me so a lot of hospitals these days do have the clear drape, but a lot of them don’t crazy enough. Something I said is if they don’t have the clear drape, I want to see it in a mirror. My husband was like, “What?” 

Alexis: That’s a cool idea. 

Meagan: So to your point, and actually when we were back there, I did not remember that. All I was seeing was a table I was climbing up on. It just wasn’t in my mind. My husband said, “Hey, is there any way we could get a mirror so she could watch this and participate in the birth?” They were like, “Yeah, no problem.” They brought it over. They made sure before they even started that I could see and that the angle was perfect. 

Alexis: That’s so great. 

Meagan: Then they started. My doctor said, “Hey, if at any point you realize what you are watching is happening to you and it weirds you out, just let us know. We will flip the mirror or you can close your eyes.” For me, I didn’t get grossed out. I know a lot of people listening would be like, “No, hard pass.” But for me, that was part of my healing watching it happen and watching my baby be brought up earthside. 

So I really love that and same with you, I had my provider talk to me. Talk to me about what is happening because, with my first, they were talking about the weather and their vacation and how depressing it was to be back in the snow. I was like, “No, hello. I’m here.” 

Alexis: My plans specifically said, “No shop talk. I don’t want anything else talked about.” They acknowledged that. They were like, “Got it. We won’t.” 

Meagan: Love. Love that so much. So yeah, talk to them and say, “Talk to me. Tell me what you are seeing. Tell me what is happening to my body,” as long as that’s something you want. I really wanted my husband to watch. I really wanted my husband to take pictures and so many providers are against pictures in the OR. It honestly is just dumb to me because if anything were to go wrong, don’t they want proof that everything was okay and they did it right? 

All right, but whatever if they don’t allow it. But it’s something you can ask. “Hey, I want pictures” or “Hey, as soon as my baby is out, I want pictures of my baby.” You can also ask them to bring them up so they can see you and even better like Dr. Natalie who we talked to on the podcast last year in 2023, ask for maternal-assisted. It begins with us. 

Women of Strength, if you are having a Cesarean, we have to start advocating for those people who do want a Cesarean or even don’t want a Cesarean but it happens. Let’s get some maternal-assisted happening. Let’s see that shift in 2024 in the U.S. I would love it. It’s happening in Australia here and there. I don’t actually know anywhere else. If you guys know of anywhere, if you are listening and you know of somewhere that does maternal-assisted, let me know. 

That’s where they literally drop everything. They have moms with their hands reaching down and grabbing her baby and pulling it up. 

Alexis: So awesome. 

Meagan: How amazing could that be? Oh my gosh, it would have been amazing. 

50:32 Vaginal seeding, advocacy, and backward dilation

Meagan: Yeah, so music. Let’s see what else. Oh, there’s more. 

Alexis: I should have pulled up my birth plan. 

Meagan: I know. These are just things that stand out to me. Yeah, keeping your baby, letting your baby breastfeed. Vaginal microseeding sometimes. People will say, “Hey, can I swab my vagina before I go into my C-section and then have this?” It’s a gauze. You have to do a sterile gauze. You put it in a sterile bag then baby can literally nurse on this gauze a little bit and wipe it on their eyes. 

Alexis: Really cool.  

Meagan: Yeah, there are some really cool things. Know that it is possible to advocate for yourself. Advocating for yourself is going to help you. If you have a doula or your husband or a birth partner or a mom, help them know what you want. Help them know what is important to you and like she said, have a backup birth plan and birth preferences. It’s okay to have them because, at that time, you are not in that space. 

A couple of other things that I wanted to touch on is you talked about how you were 8.5 centimeters and then they checked you and you were less after your water broke. Sometimes, Women of Strength, this could be a result in this type of situation where the bag is so bulgy that it’s literally stretching like a Foley or a Cook catheter, stretching your cervix, and then it relaxes a little bit. That doesn’t mean it’s not dilated. It means that sometimes it is overstretched, then relaxes, and then it goes forward. 

Alexis: And that pressure was gone from her head since she flipped. That was part of it too. 

Meagan: Yep, and the pressure was gone. Yep, exactly. There are situations like that, but that doesn’t mean your body is necessarily regressing a ton and we’ve got big problems. It just sometimes means that the situation has changed. A head isn’t applied as well and your bag broke that was bulging. 

Okay, and I have all of these little notes here that I was writing. Okay, let’s see. 

52:29 Swelling in pregnancy and nutrition

Meagan: Oh, swelling a ton in pregnancy. That’s another thing. I also was like you. I just ballooned. I had people tell me I was unrecognizable but I didn’t have protein.

Alexis: Don’t you love to hear that? 

Meagan: Yeah. I was like, “Thanks. I’m so fat. Awesome.” 

Alexis: Yeah, you already feel awful about it and people comment. Thank you. 

Meagan: Yes. But that is still something to watch for. Sometimes we think we have too much fluid so we back off on water. Don’t back off on water. Stay hydrated. Add some citrus to it. 

Alexis: And electrolytes. I took electrolytes every day. 

Meagan: Yep. Electrolytes and magnesium baths. Do these types of things to help and then of course, just like you said, it doesn’t matter if you had preeclampsia. Dial in on nutrition. Dial in on those supplements because naturally like you were saying, you don’t get enough protein in your day-to-day life and then you are pregnant and you need more. It’s really hard. That’s why I love the collagen prenatal protein from Needed. I love getting prenatals that have protein supplements is what I’m trying to say and things like this. Get the nutrients that you need and your body deserves. 

Then again, let your body take the lead but give it all that it can to do the best it can. 

Alexis: Yeah. Do everything you can. That was good for me mentally to just do everything I could to support my body and it’s like, “From here on out, this is on your body.” With my birth, I feel the same way. I did everything I could. I labored textbook how you should and yet, you still flipped. That’s your fault, not mine. 

Meagan: Yes. It was out of your control. Do what you can. Control what you can. Trust the process. Get the support. Advocate for yourself and love yourself. Love yourself for all of the work that you have done. Women of Strength, we love you. Alexis, thank you so much for being here with us today and sharing your positive birth story. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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During her first pregnancy, Selah’s doctor predicted that her baby would be over 10 pounds. She insisted that it was not safe to deliver vaginally. Selah went right into her first Cesarean. She didn’t even have the chance to try. Her baby went to the NICU shortly after birth due to lung and blood sugar complications.

When her fluid levels were low with her second pregnancy, Selah consented to another scheduled Cesarean remembering how her first one went pretty smoothly. Unfortunately, a turn of events resulted in an emergent situation, another NICU stay, and once again, Selah was not able to bond with her baby like she thought she would. 

Selah’s journey to her VBA2C included discovering The VBAC Link, building her supportive community, prenatal chiropractic care, and relentlessly educating herself to make sure she was set up for success. Though her labor was MUCH longer than expected, the spiritual, emotional, and physical transformation she experienced was completely worth it. Selah had a beautiful, empowering VBA2C with no complications. The best part– she got to hold that sweet baby immediately and for as looong as she wanted. 

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

01:04 Review of the Week 

04:08 Selah’s first pregnancy

07:25 First C-section 

09:36 NICU

11:10 Second pregnancy

13:02 Low fluids

16:29 Scheduled Cesarean turned emergent

21:39 Surprise third pregnancy

27:33 Changing providers

36:33 Going into labor

39:20 Going to the hospital

44:54 Pitocin

48:35 The final hours

56:47 A crack in the catheter

1:00:00 The best feeling

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link and this is Meagan, your host. We have our friend, Selah, today. Hi, Selah. 

Selah: Hi. Hello. 

Meagan: Thank you so much for being here with us. I feel like there are so many parts of your story that truly are things that people are going to relate to. We’re going to be talking about bigger babies. We’re going to talk a little bit about that. We’re going to talk about changing a provider really late in pregnancy. I actually love this topic because I did it myself and it’s one that is scary sometimes to do. 

Selah: Yeah. 

Meagan: It’s intimidating. We’ll talk a little bit about low fluid. She’s got a NICU stay. There are lots of little things. 

Selah: A little bit of everything. 

Meagan: You are going to have relations to her story. She is a VBAC after two C-section mama story so if you are a VBAC after two C-sections, listen up. It’s going to be amazing.

01:04 Review of the Week 

Meagan: We have a review of the week so we are going to get into that then we are going to turn the time over to you, my love. 

Selah: Yay. 

Meagan: This review is– if I can find them. I just lost my reviews. It is from hannahargentina and it was on Apple Podcasts back in 2023 in February so just over a year ago. It says, “I have had a natural birth center birth, then moved out to the country and had a very traumatic C-section. I am now 37 weeks pregnant and back stateside working with an amazing birth team. I am really hoping for a VBAC in a few weeks and I love listening to all of the stories. Hearing different perspectives, and outcomes, and gaining wisdom, I feel so much more confident in my VBAC after listening to this podcast.” 

Well, it’s been just over a year so hannahargentina, if you are still with us, reach out at info@thevbaclink.com and tell us how it went. 

Selah: Aww, that’s awesome. 

Meagan: I know right, and here we are for you and your baby’s birthday is in a couple of days. 

Selah: I can’t even believe it and I got tears in my eyes listening to that review because that was me. That was me listening to every single podcast, your story, all of the stories, and it helped so tremendously. I can’t even tell you. To be on today is such an honor because I was so helped by you and your podcast and the community. I could not have done it without you so thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Meagan: Yes. Thank you and I also want to toot the horn of the community. They are so special. If you guys have not checked it out yet or if you are not on Facebook, I would say create a secret Facebook just to be in that community because the Facebook community is amazing or join us on Instagram. These other Women of Strength truly do provide so much power. 

Selah: So much power and help and resources. I mean, I was on there every day just looking and posting every single worry and concern. Yeah. It’s a lot. It’s a lot to learn and to do. You need that community. You need that support. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Well, let’s dive into that first story of yours that began this journey to you being here right now. 

04:08 Selah’s first pregnancy

Selah: Yes, so the back story is I had my first son in 2018 and he was an IVF baby. We struggled with infertility for four years about, I think. Finally, we did IVF and we were successful on our first try which was great. However, toward the end of my pregnancy, my doctor looked at me and said, “How big are you willing to push out as far as baby goes?” 

Meagan: Oh. 

Selah: Yeah. I looked at her and by the way, I considered myself very well-educated. I was not in hindsight. I had read a few birth books but I did not know what I know now thanks to you and the community. I did, by the way, do The VBAC Link Course so I did all of it. 

Meagan: Oh you did? 

Selah: Yes. Yes. So I was not educated to the point that I am now, but I thought I was. I looked at her and very confidently said, “12 pounds.” I didn’t even flinch. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Selah: Her eyes turned really wide and was like, “No, no, no, no, no. You cannot push out a 12-pound baby.”

Meagan: Then don’t ask me what I’m willing to do here. 

Selah: Exactly. I was a personal trainer. I was a group fitness instructor. I consider myself very strong so I thought, “I could do that. No problem.” She said, “No. I will not let you do that. This baby is measuring bigger than 10 pounds.” At that point, I think I was just at my 40-week mark so she was like, “He’s only going to get bigger. You’re not going to be able to deliver this baby vaginally. In fact, I won’t even really let you try.” 

Meagan: Wow. 

Selah: I know. 

Meagan: That took a really fast turn from, “Hey, how big are you willing to? Hey, let’s offer an induction” to “Hey, I’m not even willing to let you try.” 

Selah: Exactly. And looking back, I’m pretty shocked at that that I wasn’t even offered an induction or anything. In fact, my water– so we scheduled the C-section for three days from then and my water ended up breaking naturally the day before the C-section. I know. I was like, “Oh. I’m going to do this. I can do this. I don’t care how big the baby is.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Selah: Even then, they would not let me try because there was meconium in the water. 

Meagan: Which isn’t a reason for a Cesarean, right? 

Selah: It is not. Right. Right. That’s what I know now, but back then–

Meagan: You didn’t know. 

Selah: I didn’t know and ironically, I had a doula who said, “Oh, you need to go straight to the hospital.” I know. 

Meagan: Interesting. 

Selah: Very interesting. That is also a lesson in really interviewing your doulas, understanding birth more really, and also knowing what the doula’s experiences with both C-sections, of course VBACs, and with everything. This doula, looking back, did not have a lot of experience, I don’t think, especially with big babies, but in general. I think also she was older and not that there is anything– listen. I am older. But I think she was from a medical mindset where that would be very scary to her, meconium in the water, where now, the doula that I had for my VBAC was much more like, “No. This just means the baby is ready to come out and it means a lot of things.” 

07:25 First C-section

Selah: I rushed to the hospital. They said, “Yes. There is meconium in the water. Yes, you have a very big baby. We’re going straight to the C-section. You don’t even get to try.” I never even felt a contraction. 

I was pretty devastated. I had all of these plans for a drug-free birth. I had read The Bradley Method. I had done HypnoBabies. My mom– I’m one of eight kids– had pushed every single one of us out naturally without drugs. I knew I could do it. Do you know what I mean? I just was like, “Wow. This is not happening for me and I’m shocked.” I was very shocked. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Selah: So we went into the C-section but I also felt like I had no choice at that point. This was definitely–

Meagan: You were stuck. 

Selah: Yeah. “You’re going in. That’s it.” Everything was just black and white to the medical team and even to my doula frankly. So we went in and my doctor was lovely. I have to say she was very empathetic and she knew I really wanted a natural birth. She was as lovely and empathetic as you can be. She let me play music and set up the room in a way that felt very loving. She let the nurse and everyone take pictures and videos which they are not always supposed to do. 

So it was as good as it could be. I got to hold him right away. We had the first 12 hours together. But then because he was so big– 10 pounds, 15 ounces, his blood sugar started dropping, and his lungs, because of the C-section, weren’t fully developed. You know how they get the practice. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes there is fluid left in the baby’s lungs too so they can have a harder time. 

Selah: Exactly. There was fluid left in the lungs. It’s like that sponge where not all of the sponge is there. 

Meagan: That’s a really good analogy. Yes. 

Selah: That’s what they told me which is what happened. When they go through the canal, their lungs get that practice going back and forth. 

09:36 NICU 

Selah: So he went to the NICU after about 12 hours with me and that was a terrible experience for lack of a better word. My heart just goes out to every NICU mama who has had that experience. It’s really, really hard. I was only there for five days. I can’t imagine where you have been there for months. There are so many reasons why it is hard but for me, it was hard because I was recovering from a C-section. We were breastfeeding but now he’s hooked up on wires so that was super hard. I all of a sudden found myself having to bottle feed and pump and now I’m engorged because I’m pumping so much. It just was this crazy cycle. 

Eventually, like I said, he got out after five days and that was fine. I felt like my healing from that C-section was good because I didn’t have any other children to watch. 

Meagan: Yep. It makes a difference. 

Selah: It makes a huge difference and I had peace about the C-section. I really did. When he was pulled out of me, my first thought was, “Oh my gosh. He is humongous. He is a giant. He is so chunky. Maybe this was the right thing. Maybe I couldn’t have.” His head was huge. Everything was huge. 

You know, you do worry about pelvic floor damage and shoulder dystocia, all of that stuff. So I did have peace. I thought maybe this was the right decision and it was good to have that closure and that peace. 

11:10 Second pregnancy

Selah: But then flash forward to my second pregnancy which, by the way, was natural. It was not through IVF. I should have known I could get pregnant naturally but I thought it was a fluke after trying so hard. 

My second pregnancy was in the thick of the pandemic. In fact, at our first prenatal appointment, she was like, “Don’t worry. By the time you give birth in August 2020, this will all be over.” Little did we know. 

Meagan: Nope. That was really thick right there. It’s not over. It’s trudging. 

Selah: Yes. Exactly. Going to all of the appointments alone, I was lucky to have my partner in the birthing room and in the OR. Same OB, by the way. Same OB. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I just assumed I would have a VBAC. I told her that at the first appointment. “This time, I’m having a VBAC just so you know.” 

I didn’t prepare anything though. I didn’t– again, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know about this podcast or the community. I didn’t go to a prenatal chiropractor. I didn’t even have a doula this time because I thought, “Well, she didn’t help me.” 

Meagan: Honestly, I bet your opinion of that was like, “Meh.” 

Selah: Yeah.

Meagan: And rightfully so. You didn’t have the best support there. 

Selah: Exactly. I did not. I just felt like, “Well, this time, I’m just doing it. I know what to do.” I did the HypnoBabies course for the first time. I didn’t even do it again. I thought I was going to do it. Also, it was the thick of the pandemic. I had a two-year-old at home. It was just chaotic. 

Meagan: It was a lot. 

Selah: It was a lot. So I do give myself a little slack in that. 

Meagan: 100%. Please do. 

Selah: Right? 

13:02 Low fluids

Selah: I go along on this pregnancy and he’s not measuring extra big this time around but around week 38, I go to my appointment in the morning and it’s August, very hot in California. I’m probably dehydrated and a lot of things. I remember going on a big walk the night before. 

Something my doula now has told me is that in the morning, you’re obviously very dehydrated so if you go to your appointment, they may say your fluids are low. 

I went to the 38-week appointment and she said, “Your fluids are very low. You need to go see a specialist at MFM, maternal-fetal medicine.” Medicine, thank you. 

Meagan: Mhmm. Maternal-fetal medicine. 

Selah: Maternal-fetal medicine to go and check your fluid levels. Side note, I went to the same MFM on my first pregnancy to double-check his weight when they said it was a big baby. So I will say that was smart of me to get a second opinion and the MFM on my first pregnancy got the weight right within an ounce so I respected him and thought, “Yeah. I’ll go back.” 

Sure enough, my fluids were low. He agreed with her that I should get the baby out that night and said, “You know, you have a history of big babies. This baby is measuring big already.” He was not as spot on with this baby, but he said around 9 pounds and my second turned out to be 8lb 11 oz. But it’s not abnormally big, especially 8lb 11 oz is not that big. 

Meagan: No, and no talk of induction like, “Oh, your fluids are low. Let’s induce.” 

Selah: No, and that’s what I don’t understand either. But she did say, I guess I do understand because she did say, “No, I will not induce because of your C-section before. I don’t believe in induction.” 

Meagan: Mmm. So not evidence-based. 

Selah: Exactly which again, I have learned since then. 

Meagan: You didn’t know. 

Selah: Yeah. I didn’t know. I just said, “Okay.” She just said, “There is way too much risk of uterine rupture.” No numbers, just way too much. “This isn’t a good idea.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Selah: And also she said with the fluids being low, it was too emergent of a situation. We need to get baby out. 

Meagan: Yeah. It can cause baby stress. It can. 

Selah: It can, but there was no stress. We did the stress monitor and there was nothing. 

Meagan: NST? 

Selah: Yes. There was nothing to be afraid of except for the fluids being low. 

She did give me an option to go get IV fluids in the hospital, but she did it with a caveat of, “It’s probably not going to work.” Again, I felt helpless and stuck. I thought, “Well, I guess this is just my lot. I’m supposed to just have C-sections. I don’t get to try again.”

Because I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know to ask for a low dose of Pitocin. I didn’t know to ask for anything or just to give it another try or even to try the IV or drink a bunch of water and come back. I didn’t know anything. 

Meagan: Right. 

Selah: And I did not have a doula to help me or anything like that. I just went along with it. 

16:29 Scheduled Cesarean turned emergent

Selah: And in the C-section, this is where everything started to fall– oh, and I also thought, “Well, my previous C-section wasn’t so bad.” I had peace about it. I healed very quickly. I was okay. It’s going to be fine. Maybe this is just the way it’s supposed to be. 

Sadly, I had so many friends who had two C-sections and people in my life. So I thought, “It’s not so bad. These people did it.” 

Meagan: Right. 

Selah: Right. I go into it. I’m lying there. All of a sudden, it turns into an emergent situation. The doctor starts yelling/screaming for extra tools. “I need a knife. I need this.” Everybody is frantic. She starts yelling for more team members. “I need the NICU. I need this staff and this person.” Everybody starts running in. There are more people in the room. I hear my husband’s voice shaking like he’s going to cry saying, “Is everything okay?” Nobody answered for what felt like an eternity. 

Meagan: I have chills all up and down my body for you right now. So scary.

Selah: So crazy. So scary. When I heard his voice, I thought, “One of us is not making it out alive. I don’t know what’s happening.” It was so scary. Obviously, I still get emotional thinking about it because I didn’t know what was happening. 

Finally, I heard him cry and everything was okay, but they whisked him away immediately. My husband said I did put him on my chest for I think it was a minute, but I barely remember that. That’s how traumatic it was. Yes. I do have a picture of me reaching my arms out to him so I know he did land on my chest, but my eyes are filled with tears reaching my arms to him. 

They whisk him away to the NICU immediately. Same problem with his lungs. He wasn’t breathing. They were worse than my first actually. 

Later, I found out– my doctor came to visit me and she said, “What happened was when she made the incision, his head had moved,” so she didn’t want to cut through the placenta from what I understand obviously. So she had to make a bigger incision. She needed special tools. 

Meagan: Special scar. Is it a special scar or just longer? 

Selah: It’s just longer, yeah. 

Meagan: Okay, so it’s not up. 

Selah: Exactly. Thank God because I think that would have made it scarier. 

Meagan: A little bit more difficult sometimes to VBAC the next time too to get support. 

Selah: Exactly. To get support, exactly. Yeah. That was good at least that she just made it a little longer. But that was why it became so emergent. Same thing. He was in the NICU the whole five days. I remember saying to my husband in the NICU. I looked at him and I said, “We are done. We are not getting pregnant again. I cannot go through this again.” I didn’t think I’d ever be able to birth naturally first of all, so I cannot have another C-section. This was way too much. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Selah: And then the healing was awful because I had a two-year-old at home. Everything about this was just not good. I did not want to ever do this again. 

21:39 Surprise third pregnancy

Selah: So flash forward to 2022, two years later, I’m still breastfeeding my two-year-old just at night. I had my period back. I should have known, but I was tracking my ovulation cycle. I was not ovulating. I’m 41 years old and I think, “There’s no way. I’m not ovulating. I’m 41. I’m breastfeeding,” but bam. I got pregnant. Surprise, surprise after 20 years of infertility, I’m like, “Why am I fertile Myrtle now?” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Selah: I know. It was crazy. I have a video on my Instagram of my husband’s expression finding out. It was utter disbelief. So yes. We find ourselves pregnant again and I thought, “Oh no. What am I going to do? I can’t in the operating room again. I can’t do it. I will not do it. There has to be another way.” 

But I crazily called the same provider because I didn’t know who else I was going to go to. 

Meagan: Right. That’s who you know. 

Selah: It’s who you know. The receptionist said, “Oh, she’s not delivering anymore.” 

Meagan: Oh. 

Selah: I know. I got chills all over my body. I knew this was a sign from God. I just knew it that there had to be another way and that I was going to do something different this time. I was not going to be down that same road of a C-section in the OR and I didn’t have to go through that again. 

I reached out to one of my friends I knew who had a VBAC. It was actually a home birth VBAC. It was a HBAC. She said, “You have to start listening to The VBAC Link immediately.” 

Meagan: Oh, tell her thank you. 

Selah: Yes. These are all of the resources. She knew this MFM in Long Beach. I’m in Los Angeles so it was about an hour away who also delivers and he is very VBAC supportive. In fact, he does all sorts of births. High risk births he is known for. He was an hour away so that wasn’t my top choice, but she sent me a bunch of different ideas for a doula and different doctors. 

I set about on my journey. I interviewed five different OBs. The first two said, “Absolutely not. We will not do a VBAC after two C-sections and anybody who does is basically a bad doctor. It’s too risky.”

Meagan: Oh my. That doesn’t make you feel good. 

Selah: I know. But by then, I had been listening to the podcast so I knew. I’m like, “Mmm, no. These are the reasons. This is the rate of risk for uterine rupture. This is the rate of risk for a third C-section. I am doing this and I’m just going to find someone who is going to let me.” 

So I then interviewed two more I now know as VBAC tolerant, not as VBAC supportive. They had a list of stipulations that I needed to meet in order to do it. Then the fifth one was a doctor that I had known previously. I was not crazy about him. He just had a weird bedside manner for lack of a better word. I just felt like I didn’t mesh with him. He was very VBAC supportive, another high-risk pregnancy doctor in Los Angeles who is VERY well-known as someone who delivers triplets naturally, delivers twins naturally. He does breech births. I had been in my friend’s breech birth– well, she wasn’t breech when she delivered. He flipped baby before she delivered and I was in the room. This was pre-COVID when he was her doctor so I knew him really well. 

I just did not mesh with him personality-wise. So I chose the other doctor, one of the VBAC tolerant doctors. He was so kind and so lovely, but he did have a list of what I needed to meet. I was showing this list to the community members on Facebook. Everybody was like, “No. He is not a supportive doctor.” 

He said, “You’re older. That affects things,” which there is no evidence of that at all. He said, “You have to go into labor by 40 weeks,” which again, there is no evidence of that. All of these stipulations. The worst part was that he made me go see an MFM that he worked with of his choosing by the way. I coudln’t go to that other one that I really respected. I had to go to his MFM and that MFM had to monitor me and look at the uterine wall to see if the wall was okay throughout pregnancy. I know. 

Meagan: Mmm-mmm. 

Selah: I had to go to countless appointments. Every week I was in the doctor. I know. That MFM, around 20 weeks said, “Listen. Your uterine wall has a window of I think it was 1 centimeters and 3 millimeters thin. I do not think you are going to be able to do this because there is a window in your uterine wall.” 

This was at 20 weeks, so I thought, “It’s only going to get worse for me from here.” 

Meagan: That would make sense for you. That would make sense to think that. 

Selah: I started thinking of other options because I had a sneaky suspicion that this MFM is not going to clear me which my OB said, “If he doesn’t clear you, I will not do it.” 

Meagan: “I won’t support it.” 

Selah: “I won’t support it.” Right. 

27:33 Changing providers

Selah: I started getting a little worried now. Pause to say that I had been going to prenatal chiropractor appointments with an amazing Dr. Berlin in Los Angeles. Everybody knows him. 

Meagan: We love him so much. Yes. We’ve had him on the podcast and I actually just was on his podcast which was amazing. It was just so crazy that it was happening. We love Dr. Berlin. 

Selah: He’s the best. He is so great. I mean, he was a doula himself and he obviously is such an amazing chiropractor. He was making sure the baby was in the right position, that my body was open, and all that. I was going every week. I mean, he just was so knowledgeable. He said, “Listen. You might want to give that first doctor you didn’t mesh with another consideration. I’ve been in so many births with him. He is so good at high-risk birth. If you really want this VBAC, you might want to go back to him.” 

I started rethinking. He was in the back of my mind. Meanwhile, I also had this incredible doula this time around named Johanna, Johanna Story. She said the same thing. She said, “Listen.” She had been in 2500 births in Los Angeles. 

Meagan: Whoa! 

Selah: Yes. She is also a licensed midwife so she has delivered babies. By the way, I had considered a home birth for a hot second with Johanna, but my husband was not. He was so supportive of the VBAC that I didn’t want to push him. He was the best teammate and not let me, but he was on board with everything I wanted to do. So I just thought, “You know, he’s not crazy about the home birth with our two others running around. I get it.” I said, “Let’s do the hospital birth with Johanna.” 

The reason I also liked Johanna is she was going to do– oh my gosh, I am blanking on the word– where they monitor you until you are about to– 

Meagan: Like Monitrice? 

Selah: Yes Monitrice. So Johanna, because she is a licensed midwife, she could do monitrice. I felt like that was the best of both worlds. Let’s have her monitor me until the last minute then we will go in. As I learned on the podcast, that is the plan. Wait until the last minute so they can’t do anything to you. 

Meagan: Labor as long as you can at home. 

Selah: Yes. That was the plan. That was why I had Johanna. She also encouraged me to go back to Dr. Brock. 

Meagan: I was wondering if it was Dr. Brock. 

Selah: It was Dr. Brock. He is very quirky, his personality. 

Meagan: We have had him on the podcast as well. 

Selah: He is wonderful and he just has a quirky sense of humor so that is what it is. I didn’t know that at first. I kind of thought, “Who is this guy? What is he saying?” But both Dr. Berlin and Johanna encouraged me to go back to him with that frame of mind. He’s just a little quirky. “Just go back and talk to him again.” 

But I wanted to wait until I went to my last MFM appointment with the MFM that my first OB had. 

Meagan: The one who said you had a window, that one? 

Selah: The one I had a window, yes. He said, “This window has only gotten bigger, obviously at 32 weeks. I do not recommend a VBA2C. I cannot recommend it to your OB. Sorry.” I cried in that office thinking maybe there was a miracle and things were going to change. 

I actually ended up going to see that first MFM who was an hour away for a second opinion. He explained to me, “Yes. There is what you can see a window on an ultrasound.” He said, “First of all, I do not find ultrasounds very accurate. I do not know how big it is and how thick it is. Secondly, even if there is a window, there is absolutely no evidence of a correlation between that and a rupture. There’s no evidence.” 

Meagan: Yeah. They can’t really do the measuring thing and tell you that you are going to rupture or not. 

Selah: That’s what he said. He said, “I really think you’re okay to try. You will know in the birth and your doctor should know if something is going wrong and your doula too.” He said, “I really think you should try and you need to try.” Oh, the other cool thing he did– I really love him. Dr. Shivera in Long Beach if anyone is local. He is really wonderful and does a ton of high-risk birth. I just didn’t want to go that far so that was my thing with that. 

But he said, “I looked at what happened in the operating room with your second C-section, and exactly what you said before, it is not a special scar.” He looked at all of the details. It really made me feel that there was nothing wrong with that birth. 

Meagan: Or abnormality, yeah. 

Selah: No abnormality, yeah. He was like, “I really think you are okay to try.” That was really reassuring too. I cried with happiness. I cried everywhere. 

Meagan: Yeah. Lots of emotions. 

Selah: Lots of emotion. Then at 32 weeks, I went back to my first OB and he had gotten the results from that MFM and sure enough said, “I cannot support a VBA2C.” There, it was very interesting. I did cry there too but I felt this weird sense of shame like I should not have gotten pregnant. I should not be in this position because they made me feel like you are risking too much. You are risking your baby’s life. You are risking your life. Why do you want this so much? On the other side, I thought, “I can’t go into the operating room. I can’t do it emotionally or psychologically. I just can’t. Put me out then because I won’t be able to be there.” 

That was where this weird shame came in like, “Why did I even get pregnant?” I even said it out loud to my husband then I even felt shame about that. We had this miracle baby. I couldn’t believe it. 

But there were all of these weird emotions and things that were associated with that second C-section in particular. 

I went back to Dr. Berlin. I remember crying in his office too and he was just saying, “Go to Dr. Brock. Go to Dr. Brock,” and Johanna too. Finally, I made an appointment. I think it was at 34 weeks when I saw Dr. Brock. He said, “You’ve never tried to labor. You’ve never felt a contraction. You can do this. I think you can do this and the baby is in the perfect position. He is not measuring big.” I also loved this. He did the fundal measurement. 

Meagan: Fundal measurement is the whole from the pubic bone-up thing. 

Selah: It almost felt like a midwife technique to measure the weight and everything, not the ultrasound. I remember being so scared every time I went into the ultrasound, how big is he going to be? Yeah, but he didn’t even want to talk about weight. He said to me, “Well, how big do you think this baby is?” I said, “Uh, 8 pounds. He feels normal to me. I don’t know.” He said, “So then he will be.” 

He just was very calm and the other huge thing he did which I forgot to mention. The first OB with this MFM changed my due date because they said the baby was measuring early so they changed it to March 17th but according to my cycle, he was due March 31st. 

Meagan: That’s a difference. 

Selah: It’s a huge difference. 31st. The last day of the month. 

Meagan: The last day, uh-huh. 

Selah: The last day. That is a huge difference. So when I went to Dr. Brock, he said, “No. This baby is due according to your cycle, March 30th or March 31st. You don’t have anything to worry about. You are measuring completely on time. Go on.” 

Now, in hindsight, he was born at 40 weeks and 3 days. So yeah, I guess it was March 30th. He was born at 40 weeks and 3 days. If it had been according to the first due date, there is no way the OB would have let me keep going. I mean, that was 10 days after. Thank God Dr. Brock changed my due date and was completely relaxed about everything. I never felt stressed. I never felt any anxiety that I felt going to the appointments from the first OB. 

Meagan: That’s good. 

Selah: He was quirky, but now I saw him in a completely different light. I saw him as somebody who would support me and let me do my thing. 

36:33 Going into labor

Selah: Sure enough, going into the labor, I felt like the night of March 26th, there was bloody show at around 10:00 PM. I texted my doula and she said, “It could be any minute or it could be days still so just hang tight. Relax. Go to bed. Get some sleep.” 

I went to bed and I woke up with the wetness. It wasn’t a huge gush like the first one. It was just a little bit of wet. 

Meagan: Trickle? 

Selah: Trickle, yes. I wasn’t sure. My doula said it could be just a little bit of leakage or it could have been my water breaking. Let’s just wait and see. 

Sure enough, a couple of hours later, I started feeling contractions and I was so excited. I was just happy. It was so crazy because obviously, most people would be like, “Ow, this hurts,” and I was just like, “Yes.” 

Meagan: Cheering them on, yes. Well, you had never experienced them before. 

Selah: Exactly. Exactly. I texted my mom. She was so excited. I just was thinking the whole time, “I can’t believe this is finally happening.” Again, we didn’t know that my water had broken for sure so we just wanted to sort of wait before we told the doctor because he didn’t say, “Oh, there is a 24-hour clock once your water breaks.” He didn’t say that at all, but we were concerned if we told the hospital– whatever. We just wanted to wait and see how labor progressed. 

The contractions did start progressing. It was about– I don’t know– five or six hours at home and they started getting really fast and strong every four to five minutes. Yeah. I was like, “Oh, this is happening. This is happening fast. I may even have this baby at home,” which is laughable now looking back.

I went in the shower. She encouraged me to go into the shower and try to rest. I couldn’t because I was so excited then my kids woke up around 6:00 AM. My doula got there around 5:00 AM and the contractions again were coming super strong and hard. She was helping me. She was massaging me, but because they were coming so frequently, they started speeding up to every 2-3 minutes, I thought, “We’ve got to get to the hospital.” I really actually did think, “Maybe this baby is actually going to fly out.” This is crazy. I might have an accidental home birth which is the goal, right? That’s what everybody wants. 

Meagan: To a lot of people, it’s a dream, yes. 

Selah: It was. It was actually my dream. “Maybe it will just fly out. It will be fine.” We go. My doula, to give her credit, was like, “I still think you should stay home. You’re just probably really excited.” 

I was scared too, I think, deep down. I said, “Oh no. I don’t know. We should go to the doctor.” 

39:20 Going to the hospital

Selah: We went to the hospital. We had called the doctor. He said, “When did your water break?” I said, “I don’t know. It might have been this morning.” I kind of pushed it a little because I really wasn’t sure. We got to the hospital and at that point, I had labored about 10 hours, but in the triage, a resident checked me and said I was only at a 1 and it had been 10 hours. 

This is the lesson to everybody. Please try to labor at home longer. I should have stayed at home longer. 

Meagan: Well and also numbers. We look at 2-3 minutes apart and we’re like, “They’re 2-3 minutes apart. They’re 2-3 numbers apart.” But let’s look at the length and let’s look at that strength. How is coping? Are they so intense that you can’t even focus on what is going on in the space and it takes you a minute to get back into that moment or is it like, “Whoa, this is really, really hard,” and you’re talking through it, but then they’re gone.

Selah: That’s right. Yes. I should have listened to my doula because I feel like it’s exactly what you just described. I could have labored at home longer as we will see because I ended up laboring. 

Selah: I’ll tell you the middle of what happened in between but it ended up being 48 hours total of being in labor. It was way too early to go to the hospital. The reason why that was a problem too is because they hooked me up to the monitor because it was a VBAC and because of all of the reasons they do. We insisted on a wireless monitor but they couldn’t get a good connection so I ended up having to walk around with this wire which was not easy and I could only go so far. I feel like if I had labored at home and been able to move and do stretches or whatever more freely, it would have been way better to do that. 

That was kind of a bummer. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Selah: But that still wasn’t enough to deter me. I stayed very calm. I listened to worship music for the entire 48 hours and also HypnoBabies. I would say my mantras over and over. I was literally singing and praising God for each contraction. It was crazy. I would feel a contraction come on and I would thank God for it because I knew this was just getting me closer. To be in that state of gratitude and have that openness and open heart and be just thankful for it after all of this time and all of these years and wishes and dreams and desires of my heart to experience this– it was incredible– I mean, incredible to have that feeling. 

I honestly felt no pain. I know that sounds crazy because it was so long. 

Meagan: It doesn’t. 

Selah: It was the most intense spiritual, incredible connection to God I’ve ever felt. I don’t know. It was amazing. 

Meagan: Amazing, yeah. 

Selah: The doctor and the nurses were all encouraging me to get a catheter for an epidural to put in and I kept pushing it off. I didn’t want it. I said, “I’m not going to need it. I don’t want it.” This isn’t to say there is any shame at all in having an epidural.

Meagan: You just didn’t want it. 

Selah: I didn’t want it. I researched with you and knowing that it could cause more of a chance for a C-section, I just didn’t want it. I said, “I’m not going to do it.” I put it off, put it off, put it off.

I should say this was very interesting. The contractions were happening all day that Sunday 2-4 minutes apart. They felt very intense like they were building up, but again, it wasn’t super painful and my doula kept having me switch positions. She and my husband were incredible with non-stop massages and encouraging words and putting me in positions to really help me. That is another reason I didn’t feel the pain that maybe another person might. They really, really helped. 

But it was after certainly bedtime. I think it was after 24 hours and my doctor was like, “Okay.” Oh, I should say the contractions slowed down from being 2-4 minutes apart to happening 5-7, even 10 minutes apart. They really slowed down. At that point, after 24 hours, I was at a– I think, I want to say…actually let me look here really quick. Okay, so day turned into night around 8:00 PM that first day. I had dilated to a 4 and I was fully effaced at 0 station. I really thought I was going to keep dilating and I would meet my baby by the end of that night, that first night but soon, it got into I think about 24 hours of labor and that’s when the contractions started to slow down to 5-7 minutes. 

The doctor wanted to start me on Pitocin. Yeah, it was the 24-hour mark at 2:00 AM to progress more. I did not want Pitocin because of everything I had learned. I just thought, “There’s no way. This is going to lead to another C-section. I don’t want it.” He promised me. He said, “Let me start you very low. We’re just going to try to get these contractions going a little bit faster.” 

44:54 Pitocin

Selah: So we started the very lowest dose. They stayed 5-10 minutes apart, but I did get to a 6 that way. I did not feel any pain on the Pitocin which I was very scared of. I know. 

So he kept upping it and soon, I was at the max level of Pitocin. I did not feel a difference. My contractions stayed 5-10 minutes apart. The good thing about that was between those long contraction breaks, I would literally fall asleep and everybody in the room was laughing because they were like, “She’s snoring.” There was a running joke in my friend circle and family that I can sleep through anything and I’m a very deep sleeper so this is no surprise to them. My husband was laughing. I mean, I was sound asleep and then I would feel a contraction, wake up, and start singing out loud. It was hilarious. 

There were various positions that were better for me. Being on the toilet was definitely helpful. Being in almost like a child’s pose position, but the best of all was side-lying with the ball in between. That really seemed to help open me up and it was also great because then after the contraction was over, I would fall asleep from that side-lying. That’s how that kept working with the sleep breaks. 

Selah: But that being said, the Pitocin did not seem like it was doing anything. That’s why he kept upping it. We are now at about 36 hours of labor. I was at a 6. So I was getting a little worried that he wasn’t going to let me keep going, but he did. He kept letting me go and then the one thing he did insist on though, at about 4:30 on day two was that I get that catheter for the epidural in my back.

That was the only thing that ended up causing pain. I don’t know if it’s where they placed it. I don’t know what, but all of a sudden, I started vomiting from that area. It was really bad. That catheter hurt so bad and there was nothing they could do. There was no epidural in there. I didn’t want the epidural. I didn’t need it for the contractions. It was just that area. They put some numbing cream on it. That kind of helped, but that is what really hurt. I don’t know if it was where the baby was. 

As he started dropping more, the pain lessened in that area, but that catheter really hurt. Everybody on the community page said not to get it which is why I pushed hard about not getting it. Now, I feel like they were right because again, I understand why people do get it just in case. My doctor said, “Have your seatbelt on. If you go to a C-section, we need that so you do not have to be put under.” You know what I mean?

But I should have said in retrospect, “You know what? If go to a C-section, I want to be put under.”

Meagan: Well, and the thing is that it still has to be dosed and that still takes time so–

Selah: Right. 

Meagan: I don’t know. Maybe, I guess it’s a little faster but it still has to be dosed. 

Selah: It still has to be dosed. In retrospect, I don’t understand why he insisted on that so much, but I really appreciated him so much at that moment and all he had done to support me that I thought, “This is the one thing he is insisting on. I’m going to go with it.” 

I said yes, but again, I wish I hadn’t. It really, really, really hurt. 

48:35 The final hours

Selah: The contractions were still 5-7 minutes apart, but all of a sudden, around 5:30 PM– this is on day two, and remember, everything had started around 2:00 AM the night before. So now, we’re almost to 48 hours. At 5:30 PM on day two during one of my little cat naps, I all of a sudden woke up with this involuntary urge to push. I just kept pushing with each contraction. All sorts of stuff was coming out of my body. It was insane like, “What is happening?” 

Everyone in the room was like, “Oh my gosh. This baby is coming. This is awesome.” Imagine my surprise when the resident doctor came in and checked me and said I was only at an 8 and station +1. 

Meagan: What? 

Selah: I burst into tears. I think that was the moment I got really discouraged. Everyone said on the podcast and in the community that means baby is about to be born. You are getting close. 

Meagan: When you start doubting like that, yeah. 

Selah: Exactly. Exactly, but I just thought, “There is no way. How could I only be an 8? I don’t know how much longer I can do this. It’s almost 48 hours.” I heard myself saying this out loud. My doula reminded me. She was like, “These are just estimates. The residents want to estimate on the lower side because they don’t want to fool the doctor and have him come in and be like, ‘Why did you say she was complete?’ It would not be good.” 

Meagan: That happens. Just to let you know, that really actually does happen. I’ve seen it with my own eyes as a doula. 

Selah: Right? They err on the side that benefits them essentially. 

Meagan: They fluff it in the backward way. 

Selah: Yeah. Yes. 

Meagan: They fluff it like, “Oh, you’re 9 centimeters,” when you’re really 8. It’s like you are 8 centimeters and they are saying you are 6 centimeters. They do this weird thing and it’s like magical progression. 

Selah: Exactly. My doula kept reminding me of that even when we first got there and they said I was a 1. She said, “No. I think you are a 3 or a 4.” So yeah. Exactly. But I was so discouraged. I do feel like another side note God gave me the nurses at the right point that I needed. They were progressively more supportive. 

The first nurse I started off with was super intense. She, by the way, was insisting on a– is it called a UEP? A uterine– 

Meagan: IUPC. Intrauterine pressure catheter. 

Selah: Yes. That’s right. IPCP. 

Meagan: IUPC. Yep. 

Selah: IUPC. There you go. She kept insisting on that. My doctor wanted that too, but he gave up basically because I said, “Nope. I’m not getting that. No.” I believe there is a small, small chance of rupture from that, right?

Meagan: Well, it causes infection. It goes up into the body so anytime we do any of that, it can increase the chances of things like Cesarean. 

Selah: Right, so I thought, “I’ve come this far. I’m not doing that. You’re monitoring me with the monitor. I’m not doing this other catheter.” By the way, I was in labor posting that on the community page and people were like, “Do not do that. This is why.” So again, this community is so helpful. 

So all that to say, the first nurse was very intense. The second one was fine, but the third one that I had during that moment– her name was Shamika. I will never forget. She said, “You are not giving up now. I have seen you. I have seen you singing. I have heard you singing. I have seen you thanking God during these contractions. I’ve seen you laboring with joy. You are doing this. Do not give up.” I am telling you, I felt like God put her in my labor at that moment because I needed that. 

My husband and my doula, Johanna, were saying, “You’re not giving up now. You’ve come this far. You’ve got this.” And Johanna reminded me again, “This is just an estimate.” 

So sure enough, I was there. I really thought, I don’t know, “Is it going to happen in another four hours like, 5:30?” Around 8:30 at night, they checked me again and I was complete. The doctor gets called in and he says, “All right. Time to push.” 

Johanna had warned me about this. She said, “Dr. Brock really likes women to push out on their back.” I know there’s a lot of stuff about that.

Meagan: Controversy. 

Selah: Yeah, controversy. “So I just want to warn you that he’s going to have you on your back. You’re going to be in the stirrups but if it doesn’t work, we can go from there. But let’s start in that position.” I’m so glad she prepped me because I have heard a lot in the VBAC communities that you shouldn’t push on your back and all of that stuff. 

But for me, I actually did like on my back because he had me hold these bars. I don’t know if that’s normal. 

Meagan: Yeah. I’ve seen them. Yeah.

Selah: I’m a workout junkie, so for me, it felt very strong to pull on these bars with my upper body muscles and then push with my legs. It felt doable in other words, but I didn’t realize how much this is true which is the two steps forward, one step back. 

Meagan: 100%. 

Selah: That is so frustrating. I didn’t know. I know I had heard it but I didn’t realize how true it was. That was very frustrating to see his head come out and then go back in. But again, that’s his little lungs getting more developed and everything. I did have a mirror which really helped to see and it felt like again, it was like you were going to the bathroom. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Selah: I feel like more people need to know that that it really is what it feels like. You just have to push it out. 

Meagan: The biggest poop you’ll ever take. That’s what I say. 

Selah: Yes. It’s so true. It really is. I was just pushing and pushing. We are nearing the 48-hour mark. I was pushing for three hours. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Selah: Yes. It was close to three hours. Basically, the contractions stayed 5-7 minutes apart. I stayed resting in between. I was on the max dose of Pitocin. Dr. Brock was getting a little frustrated so he said, “Listen. You have less than an inch to go to get this baby out. He is going to come out. Don’t worry. He’s going to come out, but I really would like to use the vacuum to get him out all of the way.”

I thought that was great because a lot of, I’ve heard, VBAC doctors will not use the vacuum because it’s a little bit risky with cranial damage so I was actually grateful and obviously tired so I was like, “Yes. Do whatever it takes. Get this baby out.” “But,” he said, “I want to fill your catheter with an epidural.”

At that point, now, I should say I had this prayer list and every single thing had been met from the nurses to not using drugs. I did not want the epidural. By the way, not only did I not want the risk of a C-section with the epidural. The other reason was that I had been so drugged with my other two C-sections that like I said, I barely remember holding the baby on my chest. I was so woozy and out of it. I didn’t want that again. 

But he said, “I want to put some push epidural in so that you won’t feel the vacuum and that he’ll come out.” I was so tired. My fight was so done that I felt like I had to give in and let him do this the way he wanted to and if that meant having a push epidural, then I’d do it. I’ll do the push epidural. 

56:47 A crack in the catheter

Selah: In comes the anesthesiologist. She looks at the catheter that’s in my back and says, “There is a crack in the cap of the catheter.” 

Meagan: No!

Selah: “We can’t do it. We can’t put an epidural here. There is a tiny crack. Bacteria could get in, whatever. We can’t do it.” Dr. Brock was like, “Are you serious? This is insane.” I said, “Good because I didn’t want it anyway.” My doula–

Meagan: You’re like, “Let’s just get this baby out.” 

Selah: Exactly. I said, “It’s fine. Listen. I’ve come this far. I’m sure it’s not going to hurt that much.” He said, “Are you sure? Because also thought it would be good to do any sewing up after from any tears.” I said, “Yes. Just do it. I don’t need it. It’s fine.”

By the way, there’s no choice. You can’t put it in. She said no. The anesthesiologist was like, “Nope. I’m out.” 

So I pushed and he said, “All right. You’re going to feel a little pressure. I’m going to push on your stomach. You’re going to push at the same time. I’m going to vacuum and he’ll come out.” 

I said, “Okay, let’s do this.” 

Sure enough, it felt almost like the C-section when they pushed on your uterus. Yeah, a little bit. But it wasn’t painful. It was just pressure. It was just a very weird feeling actually of the vacuum. The sewing up of the tear– I had a second-degree tear which isn’t that bad considering he was 9 pounds. 

Meagan: Very standard. 

Selah: Very standard. He was 9 pounds, 5 ounces– big baby. He also had a big head so that was pretty good actually that I only tore that much. It didn’t even hurt when he sewed me up at all. It felt a little weird, but it didn’t hurt and it was amazing. I couldn’t believe it, the feeling that he came out of my body that way! He went right on my chest and he was crying so loud. He was so healthy. 

The best part of all, I mean, I was just so overwhelmed and so happy. I didn’t even really cry. I was just happy. I was just joyful. The best part of all, though, he didn’t have to go to the NICU at all. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Selah: He literally laid down by my side the whole night. We were never separated. I breastfed all night and by the way, you know they come in and they want to make sure he’s in his bassinet. I’m like, “Nope.” I kept him right by me. That might be a little controversial, but I couldn’t let go. I really couldn’t let go because this was so mind-blowing that he could be there and that all of my fears, all of my worries, all of my hard work, all of that was over. All of the appointments, all of the wondering, I felt like, “I did it. God did it. We did it.” 

Meagan: You did it. 

Selah: It was incredible. Then bringing him home and knowing that there was no worry about his breathing, about his blood sugar, and that so far, my other two have asthma which is so sad. I don’t know if it’s related to the C-sections because my husband also had asthma so it could not be. 

Meagan: It can be thought. 

Selah: It can be, yeah. This one doesn’t have asthma so far. No allergies. The other two have allergies. It’s crazy the things that I’ve seen, but most of all, my healing was night and day. I know that’s not always normal for a VBAC or a vaginal birth. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Selah: But I personally was up and about on day two. I mean, night and day, no problems. Of course, I was a little sore. It felt like I had just run a marathon, but nothing. And of course, now, I pee a little when I sneeze. 

Meagan: So pelvic floor therapy will help. 

Selah: Pelvic floor which I need to do. And that also happens, by the way, with C-sections. I also had that with my C-sections but I feel like all of it was 1000% worth it. Everybody said it would be and they were right. Everybody who I had read the stories or heard the stories about. It was so worth it. 

1:00:00 The best feeling

Selah: The feeling of having him come out that way but also being able to hold him and be with him and not have surgery. I mean, it was just night and day and such an incredible feeling of empowerment and for me, my faith, witnessing God do what I thought was impossible and what I felt like was natural. It was just an incredible experience knowing that everything was okay. The uterine wall window didn’t happen. 

Meagan: Oh yes. Yes. 

Selah: None of those fears happened. Everything was okay and he was perfect. So perfect and beautiful and such a surprise baby to happen that way. 

Meagan: I am so happy for you. 

Selah: I feel like it was so redemptive. 

Meagan: Yes and it should have been. I’m so proud of you for going through the motions, doing the research, recognizing what’s right, and what’s not right, making the change, embracing the change, and then also still pushing forward through that whole birth. That’s amazing. Such a long birth. Such a beautiful birth. 

Selah: Such a long birth. 

Meagan: I’m so glad you had the support. It was and I’m just so happy for you and that you are sharing this story today. 

Selah: Thank you. Well, and I will say like you said, the support is so– my doula stayed the entire 48 hours. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Selah: She did not eat. She did not sleep. She did not leave. She was amazing. Then, my husband– I feel like if your partner is not 100% on board, that you really need that. He was 1000% on board and he did not sleep, eat, or do anything either. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Selah: I really am thankful for that and thankful for this community and The VBAC Link podcast and everything. It was really what was the driving force. I can’t believe I did it. I really can’t and I love helping other women now too. It’s just such a blessing. 

Meagan: Full circle. Yes. It’s the full circle. 

Oh, well thank you again so much. 

Selah: Thank you for having me. It was such an honor. It really was. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Kara joins us today from the Los Angeles area sharing her VBA2C story! Kara’s first birth was a scary and chaotic emergency Cesarean. Though her second planned Cesarean went smoothly, Kara did not love how her birth felt like such a medical procedure.

 

After experiencing a miscarriage during her third pregnancy, Kara experienced heartache and grief, but also shares how she gained a deep reverence for her body throughout the process. She just knew that her body was capable of having a vaginal birth. 

Kara pulled out all of the stops with her VBA2C prep. She built a birth team she felt great about. She prepared physically. She processed past fears and trauma.

 

Though her birth had some intense twists, Kara was able to achieve the VBA2C she fought so hard for. She took the leap of faith, trusted her body, and saw what it could do.

Kara’s Website

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:45 Review of the Week 

05:09 Kara’s first pregnancy 

08:17 Kara’s second pregnancy and planned Cesarean

10:57 Miscarriage

16:45 Fourth pregnancy and VBA2C prep

22:30 Beginning of labor

25:08 Thoughts about the hospital system

28:49 Breaking waters

32:28 Pushing, hemorrhaging, and the NICU

Megan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Meagan and we have got a VBAC after two C-sections story. Of course, I love VBA2C stories because I’m a VBAC after two C-sections mama. Her name is Kara and she is amazing. I’m just going to read your bio because you are just amazing. 

It says, “She is an award-winning creative marketer and mother of three. She is in LA.” If you have been listening for a little bit, she actually was on the show quite a few months ago at this point of being aired with her OB. 

Kara: Oh yes, with Dr. Brock. Oh my gosh, when I was pregnant. I don’t know why I forgot about that, but we interviewed my practitioner, Dr. Barry Brock, together who is a very VBAC-supportive provider. That was a really fun conversation. I think I was 4 or 5 months pregnant at that point. 

Meagan: Yeah. We really wanted to ask him some questions about VBAC. He was with you along your journey and he was so gracious to come on and talk with us. So yeah. 

She has worked on so many amazing things, some of your favorite things I’m sure like Netflix, Stranger Things, which is definitely one of my favorites, Patrone Tequila, and some of your favorite women’s apparel brands at Target which is also my favorite store. 

She started her own brand consulting agency, Always Friday, in 2019, and after the birth of her first daughter, Hadley, she experienced an emergency C-section with her and then a planned C-section, and then a miscarriage, and then went on to have a VBAC after two C-section story. We are going to hear all of the stories today. Thank you, Kara, for being here. 

Kara: Yes. I’m so excited to be here. I love this community and I don’t think that I could have gotten to a place where I was having a VBAC without your podcast, without finding The VBAC Link Facebook group and just hearing other women really give me the encouragement to not do a third C-section. I am really happy. I’m just about three months postpartum now, so forgive me if I make no sense. Yeah. I’m just grateful for your guidance, your expertise, and all of the things that you pour your heart into as an expert on all things VBAC. 

Meagan: Aw. 

Kara: Thank you for that. 

Meagan: Well, thank you so much. I’m so excited to hear this story because I haven’t even heard the full story. I just have this little blurb right here on my form, so I’m really excited to dive into it. 

02:45 Review of the Week 

Meagan: We do have a review of the week and I put Kara on the spot you guys because she actually took Needed during her pregnancy and first, I’m obsessed with Needed and love and trust Needed. You took it throughout pregnancy and I would just love to hear your review on Needed today. 

Kara: Yes. I have obviously looked at all of these different types of prenatals and I ended up going with Needed and loved it. I did their prenatal multi and at first, I was like, “This is a little wild.” It’s eight capsules which felt aggressive, but it actually was so much of the nutrients that I needed. I broke it up to four in the morning and four towards the evening. 

I felt the most energized during this pregnancy. I felt the strongest. I obviously did all of the things, drank all of the tea, had the protein, the dates, and all of that, and my baby was much– I mean, I don’t know if this is correlated or not, but my baby was almost a pound and a half bigger than my previous biggest baby and I felt the strongest, the healthiest that I’ve ever felt during any of my pregnancies. 

I wish I would have taken it with the other two, but you live and you learn, so yeah. I highly recommend that to all of my friends and I always send people the link for the Needed vitamins whenever I can. 

Meagan: Yes. I believe it so much too. It’s interesting that you said you have felt the most energy during this pregnancy because I feel like once you have one, two, and three– once we have more kids, during those pregnancies, they are more exhausting because we are not just able to rest and relax. 

Kara: They are. 

Meagan: We are being mom, right? So I love hearing that. 

05:09 Kara’s first pregnancy 

Meagan: Okay, let’s get into your stories. 

Kara: Let’s do it. Cool. I’m excited. 

Meagan: Perfect. Let’s talk about Hadley’s birth. 

Kara: Yes. I got pregnant pretty easily and had a healthy pregnancy. I think maybe had this false sense of confidence that my delivery would match my pregnancy. I did not do a lot of prep work. I went into maybe how everyone does to some degree, what you don’t know you don’t know kind of thing. 

I went into labor naturally. I was a little bit overdue and ended up sort of with the classic cascade of interventions. That was challenging. They broke my water and just set off a bunch of other things that then her heart rate went up, sort of the classic stories you hear, and they rushed me into an emergency C-section which was really scary. It felt like a true emergency like Grey’s anatomy style just being rushed down the halls, with no time for really conversation. I finally asked for my operating notes and it was a class 2 which I guess if it’s a class 1, you guys talk about it. If it’s a class 3, you or the baby didn’t make it. 

It was really scary and honestly, I was terrified after. I think it took three weeks for my shoulders to come down from that C-section. I’ve said this before, but the only way I could describe it was it felt like a car crash and I wasn’t sure if my passenger made it. It was quiet in the room. I didn’t hear a baby crying. Nobody was really talking. I just remember tears streaming down my face while I was on the operating table completely unsure if my baby had made it. 

Luckily, she’s healthy and fine, but I don’t think that took away from the birth trauma that I experienced with that first baby. 

Meagan: Yeah. That just gave me the chills when you described it like that. How scary. 

Kara: It was so scary. I’ve never seen my husband look so afraid before. I’ve never seen him pray out loud before. So yeah. It was just one of those things where I wasn’t mentally prepared for that. I was not up to date on how many women have C-sections and what you can do to prevent it. I guess in this Instagram world that we live in, you see your friends pregnant and they are cradling their bump and then the next square you see in their feed is a baby announcing its name and weight. You never get to hear unless you ask people how you got from point A to point B, right? 

That was very just this naivety that you go into the hospital and you come out with a baby and you’re fine. I don’t know why I didn’t maybe do a better job researching all of the options. 

That was baby number one. 

08:17 Kara’s second pregnancy and planned Cesarean

Kara: Baby number two– I got pregnant about a year later. Again, quickly and easily thank God and all of that. It was the middle of COVID. It was 2020. I found out I was pregnant in March 2020 so it was sort of the peak of absolute fear and scare tactics to a degree. 

I kept trying to wrap my head around going into labor again naturally and I just couldn’t get there. I would have borderline panic attacks every time I would think about it. The word birth trauma wasn’t a word or a phrase in my vocabulary so I just thought you kind of toughen up and figure it out. I just really couldn’t get there. 

COVID every day, a new study came out basically saying that pregnant women are going to die. 

Meagan: Yeah. Lots of scary stuff was coming out. 

Kara: I opted for a planned C-section. That just seemed like the logical thing to do at that point. My husband couldn’t come to any of the appointments. I couldn’t have anyone else in the room. I was delivering with a mask on. It was all of these things that just took away from what is a natural birth experience so to speak and all of the things that you need. It eliminated a lot of that and made it this very sterile process that resulted in a great, planned C-section. 

I can’t describe it any other way than it just felt like surgery. I hate to say that because you get a beautiful baby at the end of it and you created this beautiful baby. I’m not trying to take away anyone’s experience with a planned C-section. But for me, it felt like I scrubbed in for surgery and went into this sterile environment. I was put on a lot of different drugs, laid on the table, cut open, and a baby was handed to me. 

I have a beautiful three-year-old named Hazel from that experience, but it ultimately left me feeling– I don’t know how to describe it, but not fulfilled in the way I wanted to feel. 

Meagan: Yeah. I can understand that. I can understand that. Like you said, not everyone is going to experience this, but there is often this disconnect. You went in. You scrubbed in and had a baby. Everyone is sterile and quiet. It’s bright. There is beeping here and there. It just doesn’t feel sometimes like birth. 

Kara: Right. Yeah. It felt like a surgery. 

10:57 Miscarriage

Kara: So then we were going back and forth with if we wanted to have a third and ultimately decided we love being parents. I love being a mom so much. I love my work. I love the branding things I do but nothing compares to the purpose, fulfillment, and joy that I feel raising children and being a mom. 

I got pregnant again and it felt exciting but it also felt like it was coming at a time during my career that was potentially the busiest. Long story longer, I had a miscarriage with that baby and that pregnancy at almost 12 weeks. That was so surprising to me because once again, so similar to C-sections and all of that, it just was not on my radar. 

I maybe took a lot of things for granted with my very healthy and easy pregnancies. No issues, truly with the first two. That miscarriage was scary in that I was alone at home with the girls. I put down my children for sleep and then I got in the bathtub and basically delivered the placenta. I saw. It was my first experience and the closest thing I had to delivery so far because I normally have C-sections. I’m seeing a lot of blood. I’m seeing the placenta and I’m seeing what was my unborn child. Sorry to be so graphic. 

Meagan: It’s hard. 

Kara: Yeah. Yeah. I felt like– and you have contractions and all of that for anybody who hasn’t ever experienced a miscarriage. It’s not anywhere near the same amount of pain as labor, but it is way above a period cramp or however else anyone might want to describe it at least for me. 

Weirdly though, I have to say that you would think that experience would make me really sad and it did. The number one thing I took out of it is that I felt incredibly empowered. I felt like my body knew what it was doing. I felt a deep sense of trust in that, “Wow. This was not the right thing to happen and my body was smart enough to get rid of what wasn’t a viable fetus and pregnancy. It knew something was wrong and it got rid of it for me.” It’s like, wow. All of that while I made chicken nuggets. That’s so exciting. 

I really walked away from it feeling like, “Gosh. The female body is so incredible. It is so strong. It knows what it is doing. It is so powerful. Why wouldn’t I go for having the birth that I want to have which was a vaginal delivery?” 

So yeah. It was sad but also strengthening in a way. 

Meagan: Yeah. A really sad situation and unfortunate circumstances, but in the end, it was that healing, empowering thing that happened to get you to this next step. 

Kara: Yes. There is something about listening to yourself and your own gut and your own body in a way that you really just start to know that you know what’s best. 

My husband wasn’t there and something took over in me that was like, “Get in the bathtub.” I have no experience. I visualized this pain leaving my body. When I did that and breathed through it, I was able to deliver the unborn baby. It was 12 weeks. 

Yeah. So for me, it was really incredible. It gave me just the strength to know that I can do it and that our bodies are so, like I said, powerful and women are just so strong. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. 

Kara: Yeah. Yeah. 

16:45 Fourth pregnancy and VBA2C prep

Kara: So then I got pregnant again and was confident I wanted a VBAC. I took your course and it gave me a sense of confidence and was so intelligently designed to make me think about visualizing fear, letting go of fear, and things that I really wish I would have done almost before I had a baby to be honest with you of just all of the things you don’t realize you are holding inside of you of the unknown, of what could go wrong, what you don’t know, what you want to ask, what you hope for, what you are going to let go of, and just filled with great information. That course was really helpful for me and my husband so for anyone who is looking to achieve a VBAC or do a VBAC, I highly recommend educating yourself with a course like The VBAC Link’s course or just one that can get you to a place where you guys are both really–

Meagan: Feeling confident too in the decisions you are making. 

Kara: Yeah. So I did that and honestly, with this pregnancy, I was like, “I’m going to do all of the things.” I think women, if you can, if you have the means to do that, I think you should take care of yourself in a way that is– I wish I could take care of myself when I wasn’t pregnant at the level I took care of myself during this last and final pregnancy. 

I took the Needed prenatal vitamins pretty religiously. I hired an incredible doula, Lia Berquist at Your Natural Birth who teaches The Bradley Method and is also just such an advocate for VBACs. She actually is a VBAC-certified doula with The VBAC Link. 

Meagan: Yay. 

Kara: Yeah. Then I took her course. I read Ina May’s books even though my heart was not dead-set on having a natural delivery which, I think if I had a fourth, I would love to go for that but for me, just getting past the C-sections and being able to have a VBAC was really what I wanted. Like I said, I took your course. I listened to a couple of my friends. My friend, Olga, had a VBAC and she recommended her doctor who I already mentioned, Dr. Barry Brock, who is VBAC supportive, and also her chiropractor, Dr. Berlin who also has a great podcast, The Informed Pregnancy Podcast. It’s great and he is also a great resource and a great person.

I had all of these people around me. I assembled an all-star team. 

Meagan: 100%. Holy cow. 

Kara: I went deep. I read a lot. I took it seriously. I got my head in the game. I did not let fear creep in and I really tried to focus on what I could achieve. I think that you will notice if you are someone who has had two C-sections and you tell people confidently when you are pregnant that you want to have a VBAC, you will get a really, really mixed response even today in 2024. You will get people asking you, “Can you even do that? Is that possible? I thought you couldn’t do that.” It’s not your job to educate them and enlighten them on what you can or cannot do unless you feel like it. 

Sometimes I was in the mood to tell them, “Yes!” and tell them all of the things I learned, and other times, I was like, “Yes, you can and I will,” and just left it at that and moved the conversation along. But yes. It is important to just not let other people’s fears creep in. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Kara: I think if you are pregnant in general, people tend to want to tell you their horror stories. 

Meagan: Yes. Why? I don’t understand. I don’t understand why when you are pregnant, it’s like, “Well, let me tell you how horrible my birth was.” I’m like, “Ahh. Don’t share those things.” 

Kara: I would actually stop people and be like, “I’m sorry you had that experience. I personally don’t want to hear it.” 

Meagan: Good for you. 

Kara: I know that is rude but I had to protect my own space and my own mental sanity. I needed to really do that. 

Meagan: Protect that. Yeah. 

Kara: Yeah. I mean, even when I would see people, there are things going on in the world. There are shootings and there are wars. People wanted to tell me that and I really tried to block all of that out, especially in the final months of getting ready to deliver. 

Meagan: Yeah. Good for you. 

Kara: Yeah. I was overdue and I went into labor naturally. Basically, contractions picked up. We wanted to wait as long as possible before going to the hospital– another mistake that I definitely made in my first pregnancy of getting to the hospital, getting checked in, and becoming a patient really just too early in the labor process. 

Meagan: In the labor process, yeah. 

Kara: What I didn’t know and what I learned through your course, through the Bradley Method course, and through all of the different things that I did to prepare is that your body is not a business and labor is a natural thing that could take as long as it needs to take. Sometimes your contractions stop when the sun comes up. It’s an incredible thing. Sometimes your contractions stop when you get afraid and you go into a space of needing to not– so I learned all of that because my contractions did slow down when the sun came up and my contractions did slow down when I finally did get to the hospital. 

22:30 Beginning of labor

Kara: My husband and I went to a hotel actually that was near the hospital because if you have ever been to Los Angeles, the traffic is so scary. Yeah. 

It gave me peace of mind to be able to labor, be close to the hospital, be in a bathtub, and know that I was going to be okay and that I could also be as loud and visceral as I wanted without my other two children being frightened by my primal-ness so to speak. 

Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. 

Kara: Yeah. That was a really nice experience. Incredibly painful, but I basically got to the hospital and was able to labor unmedicated until about 7.5 centimeters. 

Meagan: Nice. 

Kara: At that point, I started throwing up. I think that’s common. I mean, you would know. 

Meagan: It is. It’s miserable. 

Kara: It’s miserable. The other thing I didn’t anticipate is when you throw up as much as I did, you lose that– we’re talking bags and bags to the point where my doula, Lia, was like, “Wow. I didn’t even know you could have that much in you.” We were like, “Whoa.” I felt so weak and so dehydrated and just not ready to run a marathon of pushing and all the things I knew were in front of me.

At that point, I opted for the epidural. I’m glad I did because I needed to take a rest. I needed the contractions to stop a little bit, to slow down, to be lessened so I could just rest and get a little bit of my strength back before it was time to push. 

We did that. The contractions slowed down a little bit which was unfortunate because they were so strong for a while, but we did some Pitocin as well which I didn’t want to do because I was trying to have a somewhat unmedicated delivery or birth experience. My wanting of that really was because I felt so helpless during my first delivery where I got an epidural early and then I just couldn’t get up. I couldn’t move and when her heart rate dropped during my first delivery, it just felt like I was at the mercy of the hospital staff and the doctors, and it just, yeah. I didn’t want that. 

25:08 Thoughts about the hospital system

Kara: This was a great experience though. It did feel a little bit like I was on someone else’s schedule. Another thing I learned is the hospital is a business. 

Meagan: It is. Yeah. It’s not a bad place to give birth, right? But there is still a system. There are still policies. There are still things where you come in and you’re not always just looked as an individual coming to give birth and that’s it. 

Kara: No. 

Meagan: This is an individual coming in to have a baby and we need to have a baby. 

Kara: In order to bill. 

Meagan: Yeah, and move on so we can fill the room with the next person. Yeah. That is the thing. A lot of the time when an epidural comes into play, Pitocin is just in there right in the front saying, “That is the next step ‘naturally’” to them because it can slow labor down. It often does. 

Kara: Yeah. I really do like my doctor. Dr. Brock is amazing and he is so supportive of VBAC. It’s not his fault. It’s actually just how the system works. He had surgeries planned and he had a schedule to keep so in a way, it felt like my labor was taking too long and it was time to get things rolling. 

Yeah, that and he recommended pretty strongly breaking the bag so it was just another thing where I mentally, Meagan, was getting to a place where I was like, “Oh my god. I’m going to end up in another C-section.” 

Meagan: Same situation. Well, and a lot of triggers I’m sure. Even processed births, when things happen, even if you have processed them, they can trigger you very easily. 

Kara: That is such a good point because even though I feel I processed all of the birth trauma from my first situation, the second my husband and I walked back into that hospital, the last time we were there in labor was with our first one and we both almost started crying. It was so triggering. I did not expect it at all. 

Meagan: Yeah. You know, I as a doula– I had two C-sections at this one hospital, the same hospital. I as a doula, became a doula and I walked in. I wasn’t even giving birth. I wasn’t even giving birth and I was like, “Whoa.” I just felt that. When you are walking in, you are in a lot of discomfort. You are laboring hard, then you walk in and you feel that overwhelming space like you were saying earlier and sometimes they stop when our bodies are responding. 

Kara: Right. 

Meagan: That can happen. 

Kara: And that is what happened. I went to a place where my body didn’t feel safe and my contractions, even though they were so strong back at the hotel, so strong to the point where I had the classic couldn’t walk in, keeled over, grabbing– really just powerful. The second I got there, it was like I froze up and everything slowed down which is so incredible when you think about your body. If you don’t feel safe–

Meagan: It responds. It protects you. 

Kara: It protects you, right? It’s like, “Oh, we are not ready to bring a life into this world if you are in a space of total fear.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Kara: Exactly. That was so crazy reflecting back on that. 

28:49 Breaking waters

Meagan: So you kind of went into that triggering moment of, “Hey, let’s break your water.” We’ve already got epidural, Pitocin and now it’s like, “Hey, we need to break your water.” 

Kara: I told him, “No.” 

Meagan: I was going to say, what did you say?

Kara: I said, “No.” He said, “Well, it’s what I would recommend.” It was a little bit jarring. It was a do you want to have a baby or not kind of a thing. I was like, “Okay. You leave. I’ll think on it. I’ll get back to you.” You know what I mean? I talked with my husband. We were both pretty afraid and ultimately, I decided to have the water broken. I think that if you are making the decision yourself and you are really taking time to come to that decision, it’s not the wrong decision. It’s an informed, empowered decision and you made the decision. 

Things could go right. Things could go wrong. The point is that you were not backed into a corner and then being forced to choose it. So I chose it because I knew I was getting to a place mentally where I was so tired and I don’t want to say I was giving up on my VBAC, but kind of. 

Meagan: Yeah, starting to doubt it a little maybe. 

Kara: Starting to doubt it. 30 hours of labor with exhaustion, vomiting, and contractions were really starting to mess with my mental strength and getting me to a place where I was like, “Maybe I can’t do this. Maybe this isn’t going to happen for me.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Kara: That sucked. That’s a scary place to be especially after I told you about all of my A student level prep. 

Meagan: I was going to say, a lot of work and mental prep and physical prep to go into that. It’s hard to have that defeating feeling of, “I don’t know if this is going to happen. I want it to but I don’t know.” It’s hard because we doubt ourselves. I don’t know exactly why we doubt ourselves in labor. It’s so common. I’ve attended hundreds and hundreds of births and the amount of doubt that happens is almost 100%. 

Kara: Right. Why do you think that is? 

Meagan: I don’t know. I know it’s getting intense and it’s at the end. Okay, so you have an epidural because that’s a very common stage at 7-8 centimeters to do it when they are unmedicated but here you are even with an epidural internally dealing with that. I don’t know why we always doubt our bodies and our abilities, but for some reason, I’m not kidding you. It’s almost 100% of births that I attend. At some point, there is doubt that crept in. Me too. I doubted it. I was 6 centimeters and I was like, “This isn’t going to happen. This isn’t going to happen.” 

Kara: I wonder if you are in so much pain at that point that you feel weak. 

Meagan: And exhausted. 

Kara: And exhausted. I didn’t realize that your mental strength is almost if not more important than your physical strength during labor. 

Meagan: Oh yes. 

Kara: That part of it is just really the trick. 

Meagan: Well, the mental part can get us through the physical part. If we tell ourselves we are not doing well or we can’t keep going, we physically stop feeling like we can. 

Kara: Right. Your body listens to everything your mind says and I carry that with me through everything now. It’s the way you talk to yourself and the pep talks you are giving yourself. They are very important. 

32:28 Pushing, hemorrhaging, and the NICU

Kara: Anyway, I then ended up going to the pushing stage and the epidural was starting to wear off so I could feel it a little bit. I pushed and pushed and pushed and yeah. A bunch of other things happened in that sort of period but I will spare you and ultimately, I asked for a mirror. I could see her head starting to come and that to me was so encouraging. I was just like, “You can do this.” I really gave it my all and was able to have my daughter. It was really magical and amazing and they put her on my chest. I was so excited that I did it. I was crying and all of that. 

I did end up hemorrhaging pretty badly and during that hemorrhaging, she had swallowed some of my blood on the way out. 

Meagan: Oh. Wait, so you were hemorrhaging internally as you were pushing? 

Kara: Correct. 

Meagan: Wow. Did they notice like, “Oh, we’re having blood here?” Or bleeding? 

Kara: I feel like they should have but no one said that. Then all of a sudden, after I delivered the placenta, I had a minor tear internally. He was stitching that up and then all of a sudden, I just felt this huge gush of blood and of warmth around my legs. I was like, “What is that?” Then it became an emergency situation again where all of these people came running in to stop the bleeding. We had one person starting a second IV. The other person was jabbing a needle into your thigh. Someone was holding down your uterus to try and stop the bleeding. 

The baby at this point was taken and is being looked at because she is not breathing super well because she has my blood stuck in her lungs and stomach. As quickly as that beautiful moment happened, it went away. 

Meagan: Ugh. Which is so hard. 

Kara: Oh my gosh. It was so hard. It was so hard. Then the room was quiet essentially. The bleeding they were able to stop. My baby went to the NICU and my husband went with her and I was just there with my doula. I remember looking at her and being like, “Why did I ever want to do this? This was awful. This was terrible.” I just started crying and crying. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Kara: By the way, I don’t feel this way, but in that moment, I was like, “I just wish I would have done another C-section.” I felt this super high and then I felt this huge low. Any mom who has ever given birth, however you do it, when your baby gets put on your chest and you have your baby, you forget all of the pain and you are just like, “Yay!” Then when the baby is taken away from you, you are left with the most depressing feeling. 

Meagan: Yeah. I can’t imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, the super high to super low. I mean, I think that’s very normal for you to doubt your decision in that moment. 

Kara: Right, yeah. Anyway, so she went to the NICU and she was totally healthy and fine. They had to pump some blood out of her lungs and belly. I call her my vampire baby because she was sucking my blood. 

Meagan: Literally. Oh my gosh. 

Kara: I ended up doing two blood transfusions to build back my blood supply. My face was white. My lips were drained of all color. It was sort of like looking at a corpse, just absolutely iron-deficient. 

There was talk of sending me home and keeping my baby there which I just lobbied against. 

Meagan: To not happen. 

Kara: To not happen. Then finally I was able to leave and I achieved my VBAC so I took my celebratory VBAC photo in the parking lot of the hospital while I was leaving because I didn’t have her in the hospital bed with me while I was there. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am so sorry that that happened. That’s a lot. That is a lot. I don’t know if you’ve heard our radical acceptance episode, but you should go listen to it not just to radically accept your situation. I think that in turn, it will be very powerful as you are healing through this. I can see right now you are still healing. You still are feeling this. I can see it in your face. 

Kara: Yeah. Right. 

Meagan: I can see it and I can hear it in your voice. It’s okay to take time in healing that and also, be really, really happy while being really pissed off. That’s okay. You can have those two feelings together. You can be so happy that you had your VBAC but you can be so ticked that it happened and appreciate the experience while also being angry about the experience. 

But yeah, through processing, I send you love and I wish you luck through your processing journey. I am so happy for you that you were able to get your VBAC. 

Kara: I am so, so happy. I really am. I know I just highlighted a lot of crazy things that happened, but ultimately, the way I feel about it when I think about it and when I talk about it is that I really just am so proud and so happy that I was able to have that experience, to trust my body again, and just to deliver my baby the way I wanted to do it. 

Meagan: Right. 

Kara: I really hate when people say, “All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby.”

Meagan: I know, met too. It drives me nuts. 

Kara: It really bothers me because it’s like, “Well, duh I want a healthy baby and I don’t want to be injured. That is so baseline. I don’t even know why we are saying it.”

Meagan: I know. 

Kara: But it’s also taking away the fact of how you’re getting there and the journey. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yes. 

Kara: You know. I think it’s just something we say to make ourselves feel better kind of a thing. 

Meagan: Yeah. I do too. I feel like it’s the same thing with CPD. Providers are quick to just be like, “Oh, we’ve got a too-small pelvis. That’s why there was a C-section,” just because it makes them feel better. I swear it makes a lot of providers better just to say “CPD” because it justifies the– I’m trying to think of the right word– reason why it happened. 

Kara: Yeah. It makes it so that it’s clearly a cause and effect. It’s a simple black-and-white thing on paper. It simplifies it for everyone. 

Meagan: It makes it okay. 

Kara: It makes it okay. But to me, that’s like saying to someone, “You got in a really, really bad car accident and you guys both survived the car accident. Yay!” But all that matters is that you survived. But you’re like, “Yeah, but what about the fact that every time I get in the car now, I can’t drive or I’m terrified?” Or the effects that it had on you? 

I don’t know why we are so quick with every other trauma, if you are in a shooting or something horrific that you would be given the space to talk about it, process it, and be given that grace but when it comes to birth trauma, it just feels sort of like–

Meagan: Dismissive. 

Kara: Very dismissive. Oh, but look at the healthy baby you have now. 

Meagan: Aren’t you happy? 

Kara: It’s like, they can exist in the same space. You can be happy to have a baby and be healthy and alive while also still being traumatized, disappointed, and saddened of how it all went down. 

Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. 

Kara: Anywho, I’ll get off my soapbox now. 

Meagan: Amen. Mic drop. I believe that wholeheartedly. Julie and I in the past have talked about that. I’ve talked about that. They can co-exist together and you don’t have to dismiss your feelings. Please, Women of Strength, do not dismiss your feelings because the world says you should. These feelings exist. They are in you and–

Kara: They’re valid. 

Meagan: They’re very valid. They’re very valid. Even if to someone else, Jane down the street, it seems irrational or ridiculous because you have that healthy baby, no. She can think that way or someone else can think that way, but you are not wrong for feeling the feelings that you failed. 

Kara: Right. Yeah. 

Meagan: Well thank you so much for sharing with us today. 

Kara: Yeah. I loved chatting with you and am so thankful to this community and you and your podcast and the space that you have created for everyone to talk about it and benefit from it. So yeah. 

Meagan: Well, good. This space is for everyone here. 

Kara: Thank you for having me. 

Meagan: Thank you, thank you and we’ll talk to you later. 

Kara: Okay, bye. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Danielle Duboise, the co-founder of Sakara Life, has changed millions of lives through her advocacy for wellness and nourishment both of the body and the soul. Danielle is also an HBAC mama and shares with us the valuable lessons she has learned from both of her births about the mother-baby connection, surrendering, and the true meaning of an empowered birth. 

Danielle and Meagan have just the sweetest conversation that we know will leave you feeling inspired and uplifted. Danielle encourages birthing women especially to care for themselves on the deepest levels. Her words align so perfectly with all of the things that are important to us at The VBAC Link. Meagan had chills throughout the entire episode as Danielle spoke and we know you will too!

Sakara Life Website

Danielle’s Podcast

Eat Clean, Play Dirty

Spirit Babies Book

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

03:51 Sharing your birth plans with others

9:13 Danielle’s first pregnancy with vasa previa

11:29 A humbling birth experience

14:09 Going into labor

17:06 Danielle’s C-section

23:31 Connecting with your baby

32:26 Surrendering

36:06 Choices in birth

39:14 The ripple effect of birth

42:34 Ways to release fear

53:02 Which risks are you willing to take?

56:07 Nutrition and nourishment

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have an amazing guest for you today. Her name is Danielle and she is the co-founder of Sakara Life. It is a wellness company providing the tools to achieve optimal health and vitality. If you haven’t caught on already listening to our Needed ads and other episodes, health is so important, and optimal health and getting the nutrients and the things that you need in your life is so important in how we handle life. 

She is a true pioneer in the health industry and launched the brand in 2012 with her best friend, Whitney. Creating their unique nutrition philosophy which merges modern science with ancient healing wisdom. Since its conception, Sakara has transformed millions of lives through its signature program, functional products, and supplements. 

Leading the global movement as an advocate for plants and medicine, Danielle became a nationally bestselling author with Sakara’s debut cookbook which is called Eat Clean, Play Dirty, and is the co-host of the wildly popular, which I also am obsessed with, Sakara Life podcast. A certified holistic health coach, nutritionist, and expert in plant-based living and the microbiome, Danielle is currently pursuing her Master of Science in human nutrition and functional medicine. You can continue to see both personal and professional features of Danielle in things like Vogue, New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and the Couverture– I think is how I say it- and Goop. 

She was born and raised in Arizona and Danielle is true to her Sedona roots while living in New York City with her husband, daughter, and son. She is joining us today to share with you her journey. She had a C-section and then went on to have an HBAC as well as giving us some more of her amazing wisdom. 

03:51 Sharing your birth plans with others

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have an amazing guest today. Her name is Danielle. And did I say your last name? Is it Duboise? 

Danielle: It’s Duboise. I think technically, Duboise is maybe proper, but we’ve always said Duboise. 

Meagan: Duboise. That sounds– I always sat it Duboise in my head because I think I just read it and don’t– anyway. Welcome to the show. 

Danielle: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I’m so excited. So so excited. 

Okay, we were talking a little bit before about HBAC, home birth after Cesarean, so she of course is going to share her Cesarean and her HBAC, but we were talking about how it’s something that happens obviously but a lot of people don’t talk about their plans to do it. They don’t want to share it with people, so we will get into that but I’m curious how you felt about it when you were doing it. When I was pregnant and I had my two C-sections, I didn’t want to tell anyone that I was planning on going out of the hospital because I didn’t want the negative. 

Danielle: Yeah, I think there are layers. It’s probably multi-faceted. Certainly, when you are pregnant and about to give birth, you have to be very protective of your space. I think people can’t really control their fear. It incites fear in people who aren’t even having children at that moment. It’s crazy how much fear it brings up when you say you’re going to have a home birth. 

When I was pregnant with my first, I was planning on a home birth and then I could get into the details of why I risked out of a home birth, etc., but before I risked out, I told a dear friend. It was a couple and they were pregnant with their second. I said, “Yeah. We are thinking about a home birth.” I don’t think I said home birth. I said midwife and then later it came out it was a home birth and his response was, “You know your baby could die, right?” 

Meagan: Right? 

Danielle: I was 8 months pregnant. I was so emotional. Normally, it wouldn’t have bothered me because I think he learned to put up barriers and that was the fear he was putting on me, but it was such an important reminder of how much you have to protect your space. I think every mother, mother-to-be, parent, and parent-to-be gets to define how they protect their space but I think one of the ways we do it is we don’t talk about how we are going to birth. 

Meagan: Yeah. It sucks. We shouldn’t have to hide how we want to birth especially if we are making that decision confidently. 

Danielle: Yeah. I think even after you give birth, it’s still something that I shout from the rooftops because now, I think it has a way, same with prolonged breastfeeding, of making other mothers feel less than when it’s just my story. It doesn’t mean it’s the best way to breastfeed. It doesn’t mean it’s the best way to birth. It’s what worked for me. But I think inherent in the complexities of our birthing system, of our culture, the demands on women, me talking about a home birth might make another woman feel like she couldn’t do it or didn’t do it, so I’m careful about how I talk about it in the world too balancing both I want to empower women who want to make that choice and also empower women who don’t want to choose a home birth. 

Meagan: Right. That’s what we do here at The VBAC Link. We empower people who want to have a VBAC and women who were like, “This is what I want. I want this.” But then also, we empower those who are unsure and help them find what’s right for them by also not judging anyone for just scheduling a C-section. 

Danielle: I think the most important thing and what I want for all birthing bodies is just an empowered birth. You get to define it, but inherent and empowered birth is you get to decide. You are in the driver’s seat. You are in control. You feel supported. You feel safe. You can define what are all of the things that make you feel that way, but the point is that you get to decide. It’s very easy to be a victim to the medical system and I’m careful to use that word, but I really think the way most of the medical system is set up is you can feel very bullied in it not even just in birth. If someone in a white coat comes up to you and says, “You have to do it this way, otherwise you are risking the life of your unborn child,” it’s a pretend choice they are giving you. “You could do this. You don’t have to, but your baby might die.” You’re not giving a woman a choice. You’re masquerading a choice. I think you can feel really bullied in those scenarios. That’s the antithesis of an empowered birth. 

Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. I can connect to that just in my own birth and as a doula watching hundreds of people give birth, seeing that come in and happen. 

Danielle: Yeah, I bet you see that all the time. 

9:13 Danielle’s first pregnancy with vasa previa

Meagan: Okay, so you mentioned that your first birth was a planned home birth and there were some things that happened that shifted, and obviously, it was a C-section. Tell us more about that. 

Danielle: Yeah, so I live in New York City where I would say home births are not maybe as popular as they are in other parts of the country. The insurance rates for midwives are pretty insane. Even just to decide I wanted a home birth in New York City was a feat and to find the right midwives. I had planned for it. I had a really great pregnancy, but then at around week 32, we went in for one of our scans and they found vasa previa. 

Vasa previa is kind of like placenta previa but it’s where the veins, the fetal vein come out of the Wharton’s jelly and is in the way of the birth canal. If I were to have gone into labor when that happened, then the fetal vein could burst and they say it’s about seven seconds before the baby would bleed out. 

So I went from, I had this beautiful home birth planned. I had the bathtub. I had this midwife I loved to, “You have vasa previa. If it doesn’t move–” it had to move a half a centimeter. “If it doesn’t move in the next two weeks by the time you hit 34 weeks, you have to sit in a hospital bed until you are full-term and then we’re going to induce you.” 

It was one of those moments where you just kind of watch reality melt in front of you. It went from my home birth to the most medicalized birth you could imagine. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Danielle: I wouldn’t say I’m a religious person, but I’m a deeply spiritual person and my husband and I were praying every single day. We were visualizing the vein moving. We were doing so many things. We had this little baby shoe that we would pray over and put all of our energy into just– it could make me cry. Just bring her here. Get her here.

11:29 A humbling birth experience

Danielle: That’s where you are very humbled. We can talk more about this later, but this idea that the most important thing is a healthy baby. I very much disagree with that. I think that’s one of the missing pieces in this conversation of empowered births, but in that prayer was, “I want a healthy baby and I want a birth that we both need.” 

That became my prayer instead of the birth that I wanted. 

Meagan: Yes, that we both need. 

Danielle: That we both need. I was humbled. I was born C-section in the 80’s and my mom didn’t breastfeed. It was a different time then. She didn’t breastfeed by choice because the doctors were kind of like, “You have a choice. You could breastfeed or you don’t have to. You could just do formula,” and my mom chose formula because that was right for her. I had a lot of judgment. I had a lot of judgment that she didn’t even try a natural birth. I had a lot of judgment that she didn’t even try to breastfeed and I was very humbled. I was served a dose of humble pie. 

My daughter and I ended up with the birth that we both needed to work through that karma of this judgment I had. What ended up happening was I had to move from my home birth midwife to a hospital. I found these midwives in New Jersey about an hour away from my house in New York City. They had a birthing clinic that was in a hospital so I could go there. 

But you know, it’s an hour's drive. It’s New York City. You don’t own a car so you have to rent. It was a whole thing just to get there. Just the change was so monumental to go from what really felt like this beautiful, safe place to give birth with these people I had built a relationship with and then I was thrown into this other practice. I didn’t really vibe with the midwives there. It was so much more medicalized. I just started to feel really scared even before I was giving birth. 

I will say that my HBAC offered so much peace and forgiveness for myself because I realized in my second birth what I didn’t have in my first and why I couldn’t go to the places I went in my home birth in my hospital birth because I didn’t feel safe there. 

The vein moved and so I went back to a no-risk, regular pregnancy, but I had already moved to the hospital and it was going to be too much to go back. My husband was kind of freaked out at that moment too like, “What if the baby moved a half a centimeter again? Let’s just be in a hospital.” I understood that. 

14:09 Going into labor

Danielle: I went into labor and I think the fear hit us. We just went to the hospital too early. All of the things they tell you not to do that I think most first moms and first parents just do because it all feels so new. 

Meagan: Well, it does and it’s like, “Well, wait. These signs mean I’m having a baby and I’m having a baby at this place so I should go there.” 

Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. I knew the moment I went into labor. I wasn’t in active labor for a while. I could just feel waves, but they weren’t painful waves. I was just a little crampy, so I stayed at home for 24 hours there. My water didn’t break, but then it just started getting more and more intense. 

They started getting closer together, but my water still hadn’t broken so we just decided to go to the hospital because it’s also an hour away. You don’t want to get caught in New York City traffic because it could have easily been three hours away. 

So we go. I also had to change doulas because the doula in New York City understandably wasn’t going to travel. She had small kids. So it was just all newness. I didn’t necessarily vibe with my doula. I didn’t feel safe in her arms. She was kind of more like– and I always tell people that you have to find the doula that matches and is the yin to your yang. She just wasn’t that for me. She was kind of small and fairy-like and very airy, but I’m very airy. I wanted a lioness that was just going to catch me and hold my hand and be really grounding for me. 

It just feels off the minute it started. It wasn’t. It was right. It was exactly what was supposed to happen. I went and when I got to the hospital, I was only 2 centimeters. I had already been in labor for about 24 hours. It wasn’t like I couldn’t sleep, but I didn’t sleep well. I was tired. They were like, “You can go home an hour away. You could get a hotel around here.” We decided to get a hotel and as I was leaving, my water broke and they were like, “Just stay.” 

Danielle: So God bless them, they let me do a natural labor for about 36 hours in a hospital setting. 

Meagan: That is impressive. 

Danielle: I’m really grateful. I chose that hospital because it was run by midwives. They definitely delivered. They let me really try. I hit this moment where I just ran out of steam and my contractions slowed. In retrospect, if that had been a home birth, I think they would have just given me some honey and helped me try and take a nap. 

Meagan: Got to bed. 

Danielle: Yeah, but that wasn’t what happened. It was C-section time. I was so tired that I just said, “Okay.” 

17:06 Danielle’s C-section

Danielle: We went off and it wasn’t as scary as I thought it was going to be. The scariest part was how heavy the medication is and I had been laboring. I think with emergency C-sections, I had been in labor for almost 48 hours and I was so tired. The toll of a C-section is big on anyone, but then especially if you had been in labor for as long as I had been. 

That was the hardest part and recovery is intense. Recovery, I think, was also emotionally heavy for me too just when you had planned– and they tell you don’t plan for your birth, but of course you do. And then when you have the exact opposite of what you thought, it’s hard not to judge yourself. It’s hard not to wonder what you could have done differently. It’s hard not to be sad and upset and mad and all of those feelings. 

So it took me a long time to look through those feelings and kind of realize that my daughter and I had the exact birth we were supposed to have. 

Meagan: That you needed. What did you feel like helped you get through those and walk through them? Was it time and processing and finding that, “Hey, I made these decisions and they weren’t maybe what I thought I’d make, but again, that’s what I needed to have this experience in the end,”? What helped you walk through that?

Danielle: One book I always recommend to people is Spirit Baby. Have you heard of it? 

Meagan: No, I haven’t but I’m going to write it down. We’re going to put it in the show notes here. 

Danielle: It’s a really powerful book about– it’s written by this medium and he talks about sometimes mediums talk to spirits in the past. Sometimes they talk to angels. He realized that the spirits he was seeing and talking to were spirits that were about to come into the world so he called them spirit babies. 

The book is just this beautiful story after story of how he would talk to these spirits and then he would help couples talk to those spirits that they were about to bring in and he helped so many people who were having trouble getting pregnant, etc. It just reminded me so much of we think because we are here on Earth and I thought, “I’m pregnant. This is what I want to do. This is what I’m going to do.” I really forgot that I’m bringing a spirit into the world. I’m a vessel. I’m not the driver. We are driving together. It’s the same thing. 

Then they are born and it’s the exact same thing. You are not my child. You are not mine. You are a soul that came to this Earth and you are on your own path. We’re just here to guide each other and help each other. That was a big part of what helped me. I remembered that she also needed a certain type of birth. It didn’t have to be a mistake that we got there together and just trusted that that was what we needed, but also that maybe it was a lesson I needed. I’m not the boss of her, you know? 

So that helped. There’s also something called havening you can work with. I don’t know if doulas do it. I worked with a midwife, but it’s physical touch to help you work through birth trauma. It’s a lot of just rubbing the arms up and down, having someone just help you physically release the emotions around it. 

Meagan: Is it similar to tapping? 

Danielle: Kind of. It’s like this, like rubbing. It can be a lot of different things. It’s havening. It’s creating a safe space for birth trauma. 

Meagan: Okay, I’m loving this. 

Danielle: So talking about it was really helpful and one of the ways I found my midwife for my home birth VBAC, there was not a single midwife in New York City that would do it, but I started making this relationship with this woman upstate about two hours away. She was in her 70’s, this midwife, so she did the havening with me. She just was like, “Just tell me what happened, baby. Just tell me what happened. It’s all right. I hear you. Just tell me what happened.” Just that safe space to tell my story to someone who so deeply knew the birth space and could understand and knew exactly how I was feeling and the safe space I needed and that I didn’t have, it was really healing to talk to those havening ears of hers. 

Yeah, and she was in her 70’s. She was my midwife for my HBAC and I was her second to last birth. She retired shortly after. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Danielle: Yeah. You hear the stories about midwifery and women with these powers and the history of how witches have been demonized and you start to see the connections because you start to see the magic. You’re a doula. You have magic. There’s no way I could have done what I did with the birth of my son at home without my doula and my midwife. I really think it’s the most beautiful form of sorcery and magic to create that safe space because I had to go to another world to bring my son here. You have to cross the veil. You have to go somewhere else, so in order to do that, you have to have people holding a safe space for you where your body is and making sure your body is okay, that your soul is okay. 

Going through that experience was also very healing from my first birth because I was like, “Oh. This is what a safe space looks and feels like.” It’s not what I had in the hospital, so okay. That’s okay. I didn’t have that with my first birth. If I had, I think she would have been born vaginally and that’s okay too. It offered a lot of forgiveness. 

23:31 Connecting with your baby

Meagan: I love that you said that it offered a lot of forgiveness. That is something that is very, very, very difficult to do. A lot of the time, we blame ourselves for things like we were talking about, but the forgiveness. I forgive this experience. I recognize I had this. I accept that I had this. It isn’t what I’m having now. I’m recognizing that, but I’m going to forgive that and I’m going to take that step forward and find that healing step in this right direction. 

Danielle: Yeah, and also I will say two things. One, when my daughter was born and my daughter is the one I had the C-section with. I melted into her. We melted into each other. We were just so connected. It’s inexplicable. When my son was born– and with my daughter, I had the most medicalized birth. I was traumatized after the epidural. I had the worst shakes because I hadn’t eaten so it was just really traumatizing physically, but then my connection with her was immediate. 

I had the most beautiful home birth with my son. Truly, he was born by a fireplace and my husband and daughter caught him. It was snowing the most beautiful, fluffy snow. It was literally perfect. I did not feel connected. It took a while to build a connection to my son. 

Meagan: Picture perfect. 

Danielle: I think also, we have these expectations of, “Oh, if I have this birth, then everything will be just perfect and I’ll feel so connected to my child and my child will latch right away.” None of that means that. So also, releasing those expectations of that. The birth that you want is for you and I think the more you can get clear on that the better, then when you invite the soul of your child to have the birth that they need, that’s when you start to really learn from each other. 

I don’t know if the birth I had with my son was maybe what he wanted. I don’t know, because it didn’t feel like when he got here that he was ready to be here. He probably could have waited around for a little while. I almost feel like he participated in the birth that I really needed and that my soul really needed. Then he kind of made me pay for it. He didn’t sleep for two years. 

I mean, he’s the best. I have such a special connection with him now, but it took a while so it doesn’t mean that just because you have the birth of your dreams that that’s going to mean you have the connection of your dreams. There is so much within our power, but there is just also so much outside of it. 

Meagan: Yeah. Whoa. I just got the chills listening to you. It’s so amazing to look at it that way because I think too a lot of moms that have had C-sections that maybe didn’t have the connection, they are looking for it from a different experience or the same thing where you were like, “I had that immediate connection. I didn’t have the experience that I was desiring or planning on, but I had that immediate connection.” It just differs from everybody. Like you said, what we need, what our babies need, what that journey is looking like, whatever that looks like for us, is usually what is going to unfold. Sometimes it’s not exactly what our minds would write down on a piece of paper or draw. 

Danielle: Exactly. That’s part of that forgiveness too. It’s just– and this is just I think getting older now is what it’s allowed me to think in this way because the younger me definitely wouldn’t have. It’s just to let things unfold as they are meant to be and trust that they are unfolding in exactly the way they are supposed to. Thank goodness, I had that after my son was born. I think that birth offered me a lot of space for him to be the little soul he needed to be. He wasn’t the kid that was going to melt into me right away. So just letting him be him was medicine for me. It really was to allow him the space instead of me saying, “Oh, I have to have this kind of connection with my son immediately when they are born.” 

We are taught that. We are taught that equals how good your birth is or how good of a mother you are. That’s not to say– he was a great latcher, but he was energetic. I could tell my son needed some space. He was like, “Let me figure out who I am. Let me figure out who I am.” Yeah. And just offering that I think to our children and to ourselves is such a gift. 

Meagan: When you were talking about birth plans and planning, if we have this thing in our mind where we absolutely have this plan and we think that we absolutely have to connect with that child or that child has to connect with us, but then we start doubting, “Well, why does that child not like me?” Like you said, “Am I not a good mom? What did I do to fail? Maybe my birth didn’t go as planned and that’s why we are not connecting because I failed my baby.” 

This is literally where our minds go so often and it doesn’t need to go there. I think in a lot of ways, it’s because the world tells us that that’s what we have to have or that’s what the movies are showing us or Instagram or Facebook is showing us. 

Danielle: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. None of those things can show your energetic connection. 

Meagan: No. 

Danielle: I think having a mantra– and this is a life mantra, but I mean as we all know and I imagine everyone listening is either a mother or going to be soon, but the mantra of– and I say this to my kids all of the time. We are right where we are supposed to be and I’m right here. Even in the middle of a meltdown. “Baby, we are right where we are supposed to be. It’s all right. I’m here. I love you.” 

The more we can remind ourselves that too, in a birth we weren’t ready for or didn’t think we would have, just remind ourselves that we are right where we need to be. We are safe. This is all part of the cosmic lesson that each of us individually needs and trusting and surrendering. I mean, that is why women and bodies with wombs give birth because we are the feminine– forget gender– the feminine are the ones who know how to surrender. The masculine are the ones that go out and achieve and make things. They use their will. The feminine is the vessel. The feminine call things to it, so the more that you can deeply surrender to that, I think the more we can really embody whatever is happening in that moment instead of feeling like it is happening to us. 

32:26 Surrendering

Danielle: It’s just so true in birth too. Talk about the ultimate surrender. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, yes. It can be so difficult to put ourselves in that next space of surrendering and accepting. I think a lot of people will say, “No, don’t surrender. You have to fight.” I don’t believe that if we are surrendering, we are giving up. 

Danielle: No, I think it’s the opposite. 

Meagan: Yeah. But I think sometimes that’s how it’s looked. Surrender is like, “Here. Do whatever,” or just, “I’ll surrender and I’ll give this experience,” but I don’t think it’s that way.

Danielle: No, surrender is when you become what you are calling in. If you are calling in an empowered birth, you become that empowered being that has an empowered birth so that you can have it. You surrender to being that empowered person. You don’t surrender to, “Okay, whatever you say.” That is being a victim of circumstance which, by the way, we will also all do that too. I did that many times. 

Meagan: Sometimes it’s natural. It just happens. 

Danielle: That’s okay too. I was really grateful in that case to have– there was a part of me when my midwife said, “Okay, it’s C-section time,” I was like, “You know what? Okay.” I think I probably could have fought, but I was just like, “You know what? Okay.” 

So it’s not to say that– I think victim can be a bad word. I don’t think it’s a bad word. I think sometimes, you just need to fall into someone’s very capable hands and be okay with that, but that is very different to surrender. Surrender is embodying what you want, calling it to you, and surrendering to your embodiment of it. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I think that is such a powerful message to this community specifically especially because of what a lot of the times we as VBAC moms are going through and where we are mentally through our prep and through our past traumas and through our doubt. A lot of the time we doubt because the world is telling us to doubt. 

Danielle: To all of the mamas and mamas-to-be out there, just giving birth to a human is the most miraculous, greatest thing in the universe but then to also be up against what we are up against in society and the medical community– and I’m not saying anything bad. I have very dear friends who are OB/GYNs and I love them. They have the best intentions, but that doesn’t mean their actions are the best. 

As you know, I have a podcast and I had an incredible OB/GYN come onto the podcast and talk about how we have lost reverence for the birthing body, that it’s so medicalized that we are constantly– just by being in a hospital, just by being medicalized, the birthing body is treated like this weird vessel that is just kind of in the way of the baby getting here so you just have to keep the vessel alive. That’s it. You just have to keep the vessel alive and then get the baby out. That’s really why I hate this idea of all that matters is a healthy baby. That’s absolutely not all that matters. 

36:06 Choices in birth

Danielle: That’s one of the things that you have to confront when you choose a home birth. You have to confront that. You have to confront that perhaps your choices will lead to outcomes that you don’t want, but you have to choose. I believe that how you choose to birth impacts not just you but your child and not just your child in the moment of birth, but your child for the rest of your life, their imprint. 

Choose is a really important word there. It’s not like everyone has to choose a home birth otherwise your kid will be messed up. It’s how you choose to birth, how you choose to show up to that situation, how you choose to embody, and how you choose to feel empowered. Those are the makings of magic. I think when we say, “All that matters is a healthy child,” we are treating a woman’s body like it doesn’t matter. We are treating a woman’s experience like it doesn’t matter. It is a trauma that lives through generations. Even my grandmother was born via forceps. Her mother was put out using chloroform. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Danielle: We’re not that far from it even today. Especially in America, we have so lost our way on how powerful women are and how powerful birthing bodies are. There have been studies that show the more women that are in the room with a birthing woman, the more positive outcomes there are. There is a magic to women gathering and lifting each other up so that’s my hope for women. It’s not that we have all home births or all one way of birthing. It’s that we feel empowered and we let birth feel like the magical experience it can be even if you choose an epidural. It doesn’t matter. The details almost don’t matter. It’s how you feel throughout it. 

I have a dear friend who had a very empowered C-section. She was like, “I chose it. I wanted it. I felt great.” She felt in control of her birth. That is an empowered birth. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Danielle: I think we can use the best of what the medical system gives us to help you have the birth you want, but the important thing is that you get to choose what you want for your body because your experience as the birthing body really matters. 

Meagan: Wow. Seriously, I feel like you could be on this podcast for hours and hours and hours. I just keep getting the chills over and over again. 

Danielle: The world’s longest podcast. 

Meagan: It’s like my feet are on a cooler or something because I can feel chills from my feet all the way up to my head. It’s such a powerful message here. 

Danielle: This topic is so dear to my heart because I really felt like I was healing generational trauma. I could feel it. I could feel the trauma. My mom didn’t even know what an empowered birth was, God bless her. She didn’t even know it was an option. I want different stories for my daughter. 

39:14 The ripple effect of birth

Danielle: I don’t know how out there you want to go, but I believe it’s connected to our sexuality. I believe it’s connected to the light within each of us, how we birth, how we choose to birth, the space we hold for birth. We tend to treat birth the moment the baby comes out and it is just so much bigger and broader than that in my opinion. It has such a ripple effect. 

Yeah, so it’s important to me that women know what their options are. A lot of women don’t even know. When I got pregnant with my first, I was like, “What’s the difference between a doula and a midwife?” I didn’t even know the basics. 

Meagan: Yeah, I mean, people still. It’s 2024 and people will be like, “Oh, what do you do?” I’m like, “Oh, I’m a doula.” They’re like, “Wow. How long did school take for that? How is catching babies?” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. I don’t catch babies.” Even still today, doulas and midwives are completely confused. We don’t even know now. 

We do have providers saying things and it just keeps carrying. I had one provider ask me after a client of mine had an unexpected, undesired Cesarean after she was holding baby. We got baby nursing which she was so happy about. She was getting some of the things she wanted and he said, “Is she over it yet? I mean, look. Everyone’s healthy right there.” So to your healthy comment, there’s so much more to all of this and like you said, it’s a ripple effect. 

Where it starts, if we go all the way back to where the baby actually starts and how amazing and beautiful it is, and then all the way up to birth, but then even further and greater. There are so many things in our outside world today that can try to stomp these down and not help us find that empowerment or belief or faith in our bodies. It’s hard to sometimes find that. 

Danielle: Yeah. I think most women I know are also the best copers I’ve ever met. That’s a problem because I can promise you guys one thing and that’s that your emotions don’t just go away when you cope. They live inside of you and until you work through them and breathe through them and put them out and get them out and move them out and cry them out and talk them out and whatever you need to do to get them out, but if you had a traumatic birth and then you had a practitioner say something like that to you and then you told yourself, “Oh, yeah. No, it was fine because my babies are fine.” It’s not fine. It’s not fine. 

It’s okay to let it not be fine and there are lots of people, doulas included, who can hold that space for you and let it not be fine. You know, I had to do that before I could even think about having a second and having a home birth because we all know if you don’t work through your fears, they show up in birth. 

42:34 Ways to release fear

Meagan: Oh, yes they do. 

Danielle: I had lots of fears going into my birth so it’s not like they all go away, but I had at least faced them. There were no dark corners. There was no, “Okay, I’m just going to pretend like this never happened and just go into birth,” because those are the things that show up. 

I think for my first birth one of the things that showed up was, “Okay, anything but a C-section. Whatever it is, episiotomy fine. Just not a C-section,” and then that’s exactly what happened and that’s exactly what showed up. You do have to– and that’s part of back to our conversation about surrender. Surrendering is so hard because it means you had to face all of your fears. You can’t surrender into the places that you won’t go. Surrendering means you’ve made all of the space. You’ve faced your fears. 

My midwife with my home birth said– because I got to 10 centimeters with my daughter. I was at 10 centimeters for a long time and then it was too painful. I just couldn’t release into the surrender. So because I had worked with her on a lot of my birth trauma, she knew very well about my first birth. She was like, “We’re going to get to this moment and you’re going to have to choose. You’re going to get to 10 centimeters with me and you’re going to have to choose. I’m going to hold your hand and I’m going to need you to choose yes. We’re going to bring this baby boy into this world right here. I need you to choose yes.” 

That space– we had been through my deepest fears and my deepest fears were that I was going to lose him or I wasn’t going to be able to do it and I was going to have to go to the hospital. We had talked through my deepest fears so I could just surrender into them instead of hide from them. I think that’s why birth asks us to be just so, so brave because you can’t fake your way through your fears. 

Meagan: You can’t. 

Danielle: And insecurities and all the things when it comes to birth. It really does strip you down. 

Meagan: Yes. Have you ever heard of a mother’s blessing? Have you ever heard of that? 

Danielle: Tell me what it is. 

Meagan: Okay, so one of my doulas wanted to throw me this mother’s blessing. It was essentially a party for me, but it was very– I don’t even know how to explain it. 

Danielle: We call it a circle, like a mother’s circle. 

Meagan: It was very connecting. 

Danielle: That’s what I call it, yeah. 

Meagan: Yes. So they called it a mother’s blessing, so a mother’s circle. We did. We got in the circle and we talked about these fears. These are the women within my birth that were welcoming in my birth or women who I was welcoming into my circle of trust along the way because I didn’t feel like I could tell everyone I wanted to have a vaginal birth after two C-sections out of the hospital. 

Danielle: Wow. 

Meagan: We had this moment of connection where they asked me, “What are your fears? Let these out. Let these flow through you and not get bogged up.” Then we all connected and created this crazy bracelet. It was really, really amazing. Each one gave me more power in the bracelet and we would wrap it around. We were all connected then cut it and we all wore it together. It was the weirdest thing, but every time I looked down at this bracelet– we talked about it earliest, but the connection, the power, and the magic. I felt this magic of people who weren’t even with me in that very, very moment, but they were so with me. It really helped me face some of those fears and remember that I’ve faced those. 

Danielle: Yeah. 

Meagan: They’re still coming in my mind for a minute. 

Danielle: And you’re not alone. This is the sorcery I’m talking about. This is why most of the “witches” that were burned at the stake were actually women in the birth space because it is magic. You have to have a cauldron and spells and blessings and magic to bring souls into this world. Yeah. I had a baby blessing. It was a baby/mama blessing that was just so beautiful. I wish it were more institutionalized versus a baby shower because you don’t need a baby shower. You need a mama shower. 

Meagan: Right? I know I felt so uplifted. 

Danielle: You are the one that’s bringing this baby. Yeah. Yeah. We did a birthing necklace so if anyone listening is wondering, you can Google mama blessings or mama circles. There are some really beautiful things that you can do. You have someone start a string for a necklace and you ask everyone to bring a bead. 

Meagan: Yep, I had that too. 

Danielle: You around and everyone puts a blessing and why they chose that bead for you and what they are wishing for you in your birth or in your motherhood and at the end, you have this beautiful necklace. I wore both of my necklaces during both of my births. 

There’s another thing where all of the mamas who are in your circle are given a flower and they give you one piece of wisdom and then hand you the flower. There are so many beautiful things you can do. 

Meagan: There’s the candle. Have you heard about the candles? 

Danielle: No, what did you do with the candles? 

Meagan: So the flower was the bracelet part and then I also had the beads. I actually have a picture of me in labor holding onto that and I just felt the power within my palm. We did this candle. Everyone has a candle and everyone gives really positive, encouraging words, or a mantra or something, then when you go into labor, you let your team and you let your circle know and everyone lights this candle. 

Danielle: Yes, they did this too. Yeah. The labor candle. Yeah, it’s just so beautiful and it matters. It really matters so when you say, “All that matters is a healthy baby,” it’s like, “No. How you get to the healthy baby also really, really matters.”

Meagan: Yeah, I want to say, “No, duh. Of course, a mom that is alive and a baby that is alive and healthy matters. No brainer.” But why are we saying all that matters? Why is it all that? Why that?

Danielle: There is a lot inherent in birth that is death. I think that really, really scares Americans and we don’t confront it. We don’t talk about it. We hide it. We hide away our elderly. They are not the wise people of our society that they actually are. We hide from death. If you hide from death, you hide from birth. I don’t think you get to choose, so there is a reason that birth is treated the way it is and it’s because there is a lot of fear around what it means to die in this country. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Danielle: I think the part that just makes me the most sad in that conversation is that women are not taught how powerful and capable they are and their bodies are and how much wisdom our bodies have.

Danielle: I was just talking to a woman the other day and she was like, “Oh yeah.” She is pregnant and she said, “My OB is worried because I have smaller hips.” I’m like, “When you go to the studies, literally, that is just bad medicine. That is like malpractice to make a woman feel like her body made a baby it cannot birth.” 

So inherently, now she has this seat of fear that her body can’t do it, that her body is not capable, and it’s terrible. I’m so grateful for the role of conventional medicine. I’m so grateful there is a 9-1-1 number you can call if you home birth is going the wrong way. We don’t have to choose. Medicalized birth can be for emergency situations and thank God. Thank God for it. 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. 

Danielle: But until you get to that emergency, your body is so capable. Your body can absolutely birth your baby and the more you surround yourself with people that believe that too, I mean, trying to do that, trying to birth a human naturally and just to keep your soul, mind, and body in the face of someone who thinks you can’t do it, might be impossible. It might be impossible. 

Meagan: That’s what I was going to say. Not only does this woman have this seed of doubt in her mind, but her provider is doubting her before she even begins. It reminds me of that OB you said you had on the podcast on Sakara Life. We are losing this. We are placing doubt before we even get there and I’m going to tell you right now. That provider is probably not going to wait, probably not going to trust the body, probably not going to trust the process, and things are going to be pushed whether she has a C-section or not. I’m not saying that, but if someone doubts someone’s ability before labor even happens that they can’t get the baby out of the pelvis, that is a red flag that is an issue. 

Think about how many patients that provider probably has that is placing doubt. 

Danielle: I think connected to everything we are saying, our fear of death, our fear of– we have convinced ourselves that a medicalized birth is a risk-free birth or at least a lower-risk birth. 

Meagan: Safer. 

53:02 Which risks are you willing to take?

Danielle: We just know from the literature that’s not true. In fact, it’s the opposite, but even if it were true, I have a firm belief that for every action, there is a reaction. For every– and what I mean by that is in order to bring a human into this world, it’s going to be hard. 

People are like, “I’m just going to do a C-section.” There is no world where a C-section is easy. There is no risk-free easy way out. We can tell ourselves that there are, but there is not. So back to this idea of the empowered birth are which risks are you willing to take? Which risks are you comfortable with? Which risks are you okay with for your body? Those are the questions we have to be asking. Not, “Oh, I’m choosing a home birth because I’m just a little bit more risk tolerant.” That’s not what it is at all. 

Meagan: Exactly, yeah. 

Danielle: Or, “I’m choosing a C-section because I just want it to be easy.” That’s not what it is at all. I’ve had a C-section. It’s not easy at all. I think we fool ourselves in the conversation by making things seem safer, seem easier, and they’re not. 

Meagan: Well, I feel like these things we are telling us is a way to justify our actions. A provider who is going to tell someone that they have CPD and their op-reports, it may be a way to justify the action of a performed Cesarean on their part. We say these things to soften what we are doing. 

Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know. I’m sure you’ve had conversations around The Business of Being Born, but that’s very real. 

Meagan: It’s very real. 

Danielle: That’s why, in my opinion, conventional medicine is perfect for acute, emergency situations because it is a business, and thank God they are there for those emergencies, but if you are not in an emergency moment which, by the way, birth is not an emergency, then I don’t think– and this is true even outside of birth. I have my Masters in functional medicine and human nutrition. It’s the same with nutrition. There’s no role for pharmacology and conventional medicine when it comes to everyday health and wellness. 

Thank God that it’s there if someone has a heart attack or God forbid gets hit by a bus or something like that. Thank God for conventional medicine, but they do not have the tools to help with chronic, everyday metabolic issues. What they are trained to do is give pharmaceutical drugs that mask symptoms or change physiology to mask symptoms, but it’s not this “well care” that we need both in birth and outside of birth. 

56:07 Nutrition and nourishment

Meagan: And nutrition is such a passion of mine and something that I would love to also have an episode in the future because there is so much to do with exactly what you were saying. It’s not just birth. There is so much more and that’s a big one. That’s a really, really big one. 

Danielle: I like to talk about it in terms of nourishment because I think that nutrition is scientific and there is nothing scientific– 

Meagan: Nourishment. 

Danielle: Yeah, and to think of it that way because I think so many times women are taught from the lens of nutrition that this is what you should eat for your pregnancy and not eat and this is what you should eat postpartum and not eat. Do you feel nourished? Do you feel good? Do you feel whole? Nourishment is inclusive of your emotional connections with your partner, your emotional connections with your community, your connection to why are you on this planet, your spirituality, and your religion. 

Nourishment is multifaceted where nutrition tends to just be, “Did you get enough protein?” 

Meagan: Proteins and carbs and fats. Did you hit your macros today? 

Danielle: Yeah. It’s such a boring conversation that we haven’t been having for most of humanity. This is our small, small, small understanding of what the body needs and it’s one lens into what the body needs. A lot of my work is trying to help people understand that through the eyes of nourishment, we can actually transform our health because they are thinking about both how we feel from not just a physical standpoint, but from an emotional and spiritual one as well. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I love how you were like, “It’s just a small lens.” There is so much. There is so much. 

Danielle: I will tell you the deeper I get into literature, the deeper I get into scientific studies, and the deeper we go into the mechanics of the cell, we go one step farther and we are in quantum and then we have no idea what’s going on, so it’s just this constant reminder of how it’s so cool that we can do heart transplants. That is so awesome and the geek in me and the scientist in me is so intrigued.

I so love understanding the biochemistry of nutrition, what’s really going on, and what our mitochondria need to function. I love that and it’s so, so cool that our kids are starting to understand that and can make real changes in people’s lives by understanding that, but also, we can’t— I personally can’t practice there without having reverence for how much we don’t know and making sure that even though I can say, “Hey, after your labs and this questionnaire, I think you might be deficient in a couple of these things, so let’s put you on these things,” if I don’t then also have the conversation of, “How is your relationship with your mom because you’ve talked about some trauma?”

Those conversations are so separate from conventional medicine. I hope the new wave of medicine is the whole person and there is a whole assessment. 

Meagan: Well, yeah. I know time is up, but I was having a conversation about this whole thing. Okay, maybe we are deficient in these areas, but how is our life? How is our sleep? How is our connection? How is our cortisol? What are we doing in addition over here? That’s just not talked about a ton. 

Danielle: Yeah. I will say this as the nutritionist. I think soul health is way more important than any other health. The more you take care of whatever your soul needs whether it is deep breaths or a vacation or a mantra or a really good book by a fireside or some hot chocolate or a glass of wine or a bowl of french fries after a late night of dancing, answering those questions about what your soul needs, I think, are the most important and then once we can do that, we start to uncover, “Oh, you know what? I want to eat really well because I have this connection to myself.” The way we take care of ourselves is a reflection of our connection to ourselves so I think soul health as our first priority usually ends up being the thing that has the greatest impact because of the ripple effects. 

Meagan: Yeah, it helps us find the connectivity again because sometimes we are slightly disconnected then we find our soul and we find what we need, and then we flourish through there. 

Danielle: Yeah, it’s like if you don’t have that, then it’s just another to-do list. “Oh, I need to check off meditating. Oh, I need to check off getting my greens today.” That’s exhausting. 

Meagan: It is exhausting. I’ve done it. 

Danielle: Yeah. 

Meagan: I’m guilty right here. 

Danielle: We all have. We all have, then you just end up chronically stressed and you have adrenal fatigue and it’s beside the point so it’s trying to anchor people on those soul questions first. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Well, I encourage everybody listening to tune into your podcast. We’re going to make sure that we have– it’s Sakara Life. Again, that’s how I say it. Is that how you say it? 

Danielle: That’s right, yeah. 

Meagan: Sakara Life. We are going to make sure we have that link in the show notes. Don’t forget about us here at The VBAC Link listeners. I’m just saying, don’t forget about us. 

Danielle: No, you’re work is so important. Thank you. 

Meagan: You’re immediately going to be hooked. There’s so much amazingness. I mean, everything on there. You guys just do such an incredible job. I’m so grateful for all that you are doing and all that you are helping, your line, and everything. We are going to have everything in the show notes so definitely go click around and go explore. 

Danielle: Yeah, and just in case people don’t know, I have a company called Sakara. It was started over 12 years ago and it really started as a food company. We delivered the food that changed our lives. We started delivering it to people and then that turned into hundreds of people then thousands of people then millions of people. 

Meagan: Millions and millions, yeah. 

Danielle: Yeah, so now we offer fresh food delivery at your door. We offer it to every zip code in the United States. It’s all organic. It’s all plant-rich, really tasty, beautiful food. It’s what I eat every single day. Yeah. Then just on this mission to put people in the driver’s seat of their health to really help you understand what is the toolkit you need to really feel good, to really nourish, so our podcast is also part of that. 

One of the nourishing conversations we can have is, do you feel lit up at the end? 

Meagan: Mhmm. Oh, I love it so much. Thank you, seriously, from the bottom of my heart for coming on. I feel like my cheeks hurt from smiling just hearing you speak, feeling you speak. Oh, everything about you is magic. I know you are not the doula, but you have magic too. You are incredible. 

Danielle: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you and thank you for all the work you do. I told you this at the beginning that I didn’t have your podcast when I was searching for how to have a vaginal birth after my C-section and I think these stories are so important so that we can remind women how powerful they are and that we do have the option and that the best intended medical caregivers who say, “We have increased of blah, blah, blah and rupture,” it’s like, “Do you really understand your risk? Do you really, really understand how much more of a risk you’re taking?” 

I will tell you the missing part of the conversation is all you are gaining by choosing the birth that you want, so yes. Yes. It’s slightly, very slightly more risky post-C-section, but no matter how you give birth, choosing and feeling empowered is going to give you so much. That’s often the part of the conversation that is missing. 

Meagan: I agree. Again, another mic drop here. I can’t even. You are just– I need you in my life every day, so that’s why I’m listening to your podcast because you are just so amazing. Again, thank you so much. 

Danielle: You are so sweet. Thank you. 

Meagan: We will talk to you later. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Hearing about risk is hard. Interpreting risk is even harder, but deciding which risks are comfortable for you is an essential part of birth!

Meagan and Julie discuss how to tell the difference between relative and absolute risk, and what kind of conversations to have with your provider to help you better understand what the numbers mean. 

They also quote many stats and risk percentages around topics like blood transfusions, uterine rupture, eating during labor, epidurals, Pitocin, AROM, and episiotomies.  

And if you don’t feel comfortable with accepting a certain risk, that is OKAY. We support your birthing in the way that feels best to you!

Risk of Uterine Rupture with Vaginal Birth after Cesarean in Twin Gestations

Journal of Perinatal Education Article

What are the chances of being struck by lightning?

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:52 Review of the Week

06:08 Determining acceptable risk for you and your provider 

08:00 Absolute versus relative risk

15:21 More conversations need to happen

25:29 Risk of blood transfusion in VBAC, second C-section, and third C-section

30:37 Understanding the meaning of statistical significance 

32:05 “The United States is intervention intensive” 

36:27 Eating during labor and the risk of aspiration under anesthesia

43:03 Epidurals, Pitocin, AROM, episiotomies, and C-section percentages

44:43 The perspective of birth doulas and birth photographers

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. Guess who I have today? Julie!

Julie: Hello. 

Meagan: Hello. It’s so good to have you on today. 

Julie: Of course. It’s always fun to be here. 

Meagan: It really is. It’s so fun. When we sit and chat before, it just feels so comfortable like that is the norm still for me even though it has been a while, it just feels so normal and I love it. I miss you and I love you and I am so excited to be here with you today. 

You guys, we are going to talk a little bit about risk. We know that in the VBAC world, there’s a lot of risk that comes up. I should say a lot of talk about risk that comes up whether it be is it safe to even have a VBAC? Is it safe to be induced? What are our real risks of uterine rupture? Is it safe to VBAC with an epidural or without an epidural? What about at home out of the hospital? Is that safe? I don’t know. Let’s talk about that today. 

Julie: Let’s talk about it. 

Meagan: Let’s talk about it. I think it’s really important to note that no matter what— and we’re going to talk about this for sure today, but no matter what, you have to take the risks that you are presented and that is given and still decide what’s best for you. That risk doesn’t mean that is what you have to or can’t do. Right? 

So I think while you are listening, be mindful or kind of keep that in the back of your mind of, “Okay, I’m hearing. I’m learning.” Let’s figure out what this really means and then let’s figure out what’s truly best for you and your baby.

02:52 Review of the Week

I do have a Review of the Week so I want to hurry and read that, then Julie and I will dive into risk and assessing. 

Julie: Dun dun, we’re ready. 

Meagan: We are ready. 

Okay, holy cow. This is a really long review, so—

Julie: You can do it. 

Meagan: Thank you to Sara R-2019 on Apple Podcasts for leaving this review. I love how Julie was like, “You can do it,” because she knows that I get ahead of what I’m reading in my mind and then I can’t read, so let’s see how many times it takes to read this review. 

Julie: You’ve got this. 

Meagan: Okay. It says, “A balanced and positive perspective.” It says, “As a physician myself I think it is unusual to find balanced resources for patients that represent the medical facts but also the patient experience and correct for some of the inaccuracies in medicine. This podcast does an amazing job of striking this balance!

“I had an emergency C-section with my daughter 2 years ago. Despite understanding that the CS was medically appropriate and my professional experience, I still found the whole experience to be mildly traumatic and disappointing. This podcast was the main resource I used to help prepare for my second child’s birth and my plan to have a VBAC. I am now holding my new baby in my arms with so much pride, love, self-confidence, and trust because I had a smooth and successful VBAC.

“I am thankful for this podcast which gave me ideas, confidence, strength, and a sense of community in what is otherwise a very isolating experience. I especially appreciate the variety of stories that are shared, including VBAC attempts that result in another C section so that we can all prepare ourselves for the different outcomes. No matter what happens we are strong women and have a welcome spot in this community, even when we may feel alone with our thoughts and fears. Thank you, Julie and Meagan!

Julie: Aw, I love that. 

Meagan: Yes, that was phenomenal. Congratulations Sara R-2019. If you are still listening here, congratulations and we are so happy for you and thank you for your amazing review. 

06:08 Determining acceptable risk for you and your provider

Meagan: All right, Julie. Are you ready? 

Julie: Here we go. Here we go. Can I talk for a minute about something you mentioned before the review? You were talking about risk and how it’s not a one-size-fits-all because we were talking about this before. We all know that the uterine rupture risk is anywhere between .2%-1% or whatever depending on the study and what you look at. The general consensus among the medical community is .5%-1% is kind of where we are sitting, right? 

Now, some people might look at that risk and be like, “Heck yeah. That’s awesome. Let’s do this,” especially when you look at a lower risk than that that it’s a catastrophic rupture. Some people might look at those numbers and be like, “This feels safe. Let’s go.” Some people might look at those numbers and be like, “This feels scary. I just want to schedule a C-section.”

Meagan: No, thank you. 

Julie: And that’s okay. It is okay. However you approach risk and however you look at it is okay. We’re not here to try and sway anybody. Obviously, we’re The VBAC Link, so we are going to be big advocates for VBAC access, right? But we’re also advocates for having all of the information so you can make the best decision no matter what that looks like. But also, I think another very important part of that is finding a provider whose view of risk is similar to your view of risk so that you guys have a similar way to approach things because if you find a provider who thinks that 1% risk of VBAC is really scary, it’s not going to go good for you if you think a 1% risk for a VBAC is acceptable. 

So yeah, I just want to lay that out there in the beginning. Meagan, you touched on it in the beginning, but I feel like provider choice in risk is really important there. 

Meagan: It is. 

Julie: For sure. 

08:00 Absolute versus relative risk

Meagan: It is and also, one of the things we wanted to talk a lot about is absolute risk versus relative. So many times when people, not even just the actual percentage or 1 out of 5 is shared, it’s the way it’s shared. The way the words are rolling off of the tongue and coming out can be shared in a scarier way so when we say 1 out of 5, you’re like, “Okay, that’s a very small number. I could easily be one of those 5’s.” It’s the way these providers sometimes say it. 

 

A lot of the time, that’s based on their own experience because now they are like, “Well, I am sharing this number, but I’m sharing a little extra behind the number because I’ve had the experience that was maybe poor or less ideal.” 

Does this make sense? 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Sometimes the way we say things makes that number seem even bigger or even worse or scarier. 

Julie: Right. It really comes down to absolute risk versus relative risk, right? Relative is your risk in relation to another thing that has risk. Absolute risk is the actual number. It’s like 1 in 10. That is an absolute risk. You have a 1 in 100 chance of uterine rupture. That is an absolute risk. Your chance of uterine rupture doubles after three Cesareans. That’s not true. That’s not true. But that’s a relative risk. 

I really like the example that I feel is really common for people to relate to is stillbirth after X amount of weeks. Evidence-Based–

Meagan: That’s a huge one. 

Julie: Yeah, it’s a big one that gets thrown around all of the time and it sounds really scary when people say it. I love Evidence Based Birth. They have this whole article about due dates and risks associated with due dates and why due dates should really be adjusted and look at differently. They don’t say that. They just present all of the data, but what I really like about that is they have a section here about stillbirth and they talk about absolute risk versus relative risk. I feel like that would be a great thing to start with. 

I’m just going to read it because it’s so well-written. They said, “If someone said that the risk of having a stillbirth at 42 weeks compared to 41 weeks is 94% higher, then that sounds like a lot.” Your risk of stillbirth doubles at 42 weeks than if you were to just get induced at 41 weeks. Your baby is twice as likely to be stillborn if you go to 42 weeks. 

Meagan: Terrifying. 

Julie: Okay? 94% higher. That’s almost double. That is scary. For me, I’d be like, “Uh, yeah. That is super scary.” 

Meagan: Done. Sign me up for induction. 

Julie: Right? Sign me up for induction. But when you consider the actual risks or the absolute risks, let’s just talk about those numbers. 1.7 per 1,000 births if they are at 41 weeks. Stillbirth is 1.7 per 1000 births. At 42 weeks, it’s 3.2 per 1000 so it’s a .17% chance versus a .3% chance so you are still looking at really, really, really small numbers there. So yeah, it’s true. 3.2 is almost double of 1.7 if you do the math. Sometimes math is hard so that’s fine. We have to get out the calculator sometimes, but while it’s true to say the risk of stillbirth almost doubles at 42 weeks, it could be kind of misleading if you’re not looking at the actual numbers behind it. 

So I think that it’s really important when we’re talking about risks and the numbers and statistics to understand that there are different ways of measuring them and different ways of looking at them and different ways of how they’re even calculated sometimes. So depending on how you look at them, you could even come up with different risks or different rates which can really sway your decision. 

We’re not talking about a 5%-10% double which is still true. It’s still double, but it’s just a really small number. Now, I also want to do a plug-in for people who have been in that .3%. It might as well be 100%. I can’t even imagine the trauma of having to have a loss like that. I can’t. I have supported parents through that. I have documented families like that and documented their sweet babies for them. I can’t imagine the pain that goes with that. 

But I also think it is very important to look at the actual numbers when you are making a decision. Now, maybe that .32% is too high for you and that’s okay, but maybe it’s not and that is a risk you are willing to accept. I feel like approaching it like that is so much better. If somebody ever says to you, “This risk of that is double” or whatever, I don’t know. 

I’m just going to make up some random stuff here like, “If you drive in your car to school, you have a 1 in 10 chance of getting in a car crash but if you drive on a Wednesday, your risk doubles so now you have a 2 in 10 chance or 1 in 5 chance of getting in the car crash,” so maybe you would want to avoid driving to school on Wednesdays, but maybe you wouldn’t. But if you say you’re risk is higher of dying in a car crash if you go to school on Wednesdays, they would be like, “I’m not leaving the house on Wednesdays or ever.” I’m not leaving the house today because it’s so dog-gone cold and I’m warm in my blanket. 

I don’t know. I feel like looking at it like that. Actually, 1 in 10 is really high for getting in a car crash, but I don’t know. I just feel like looking at that is really important for providers telling you, “Oh, your risk of uterine rupture doubles if we use Pitocin so I’m not going to use Pitocin.” Okay, we’re looking at a small increase to an already small risk. We know that any type of artificial induction could lead to an increased risk of uterine rupture especially if it’s mismanaged, but what we do know is that it’s not– I don’t want to say that because that might be wrong. 

When you are presented with the actual numbers, yes. It might double. I don’t know what the actual numbers are, to be honest off the top of my head. I feel like maybe it doubles, but if you are already looking at a .2% to a .4% or a .5% to a 1% chance, what’s the tradeoff there? What are your risks of just scheduling a repeat C-section instead of doing an induction? Is that worth it to you? What are the risks associated with repeat Cesareans? Are they bigger than that of using Pitocin to induce labor? What is that compared to the other one because there is another that is relative risk? The absolute risk is what the percentage is. I’m not even going to say the number. 

But if there’s a risk of rupture using Pitocin relative to the risks that come with repeat Cesareans, those are risks that are relative to each other, so how does that compare? Because when we talk about it in just that singular form or that singular amount of risk without considering the other risks that might be associated with it because of the decisions we made from that risk– am I making sense here? Then you know, I don’t know. I feel like there is just a lot more conversation to have sometimes when we are talking about risk. 

15:21 More conversations need to happen

Meagan: Yes. There are. There is a ton more conversation and that is what I feel like we don’t see happening. There’s a quick conversation. Studies show that 7 minutes are spent in our prenatal visits which is not a lot of time to really dive into the depths of risk that we are talking about when we say, “We can’t induce you because Pitocin increases–”. This is another thing I’ve noticed is significantly. You have a serious–. Again, it comes down to the words we are using. Sometimes in these prenatal visits with our providers, we do not have the time to actually break down the numbers and we’re just saying, “Well, you have a significantly higher risk with Pitocin of uterine rupture so we won’t do that.” 

When we hear significantly, what do we do? We’re like, “Ahh, that is big.” You know? 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: We’re just not having the conversation of risk enough and again, it’s kind of being skewed sometimes by words and emotion. We were talking about this before. I remember we made a post– I don’t know, probably a year and a half ago maybe. It seems like a while ago about the risk of complications in a repeat Cesarean meaning you have a C-section and then instead of going for a VBAC, you go for a repeat Cesarean which as you know, if you’ve been with us, is totally fine and respected here from The VBAC Link. 

A lot of the time, we don’t talk– and when I say we, I mean the world. We don’t talk about the actual risk of having a repeat Cesarean, right? Don’t you feel like that, Julie? I don’t know. As a doula, I feel like our clients who want to go for VBAC know a little bit more of the risk of having a VBAC, but they have not been discussed at all really with the risk surrounding a repeat Cesarean. We made a post talking about the risks of repeat Cesarean and I very vividly remember a lot of people coming at us with feeling that we were fearmongering.

Julie: Or shaming. 

Meagan: Shaming, yep. A lot of people were feeling shamed or disrespected. People would say, “You claim to be CBAC supportive, but here you are making these really, really scary numbers.” Anyway, looking at that post and going into what we’ve talked about, in some of those posts, we did say things like, “You are going to have a 1 out of 10 chance of X, Y, Z,”

Julie: Or twice as likely to need this. Twice as likely to need a blood transfusion or 5x more likely to have major complications. Things like that. 

Meagan: Yeah. We would say things like that. I remember specifically in regards to miscarriage. It’s a very, very sensitive topic, but there are risks there. So a lot of people were triggered. In the beginning, we talked about the way providers say things and the way they put them out on paper and the absolute risk versus the relative and way they do that. We’re guilty of that too. Right here at The VBAC Link, we were like, “This is the chance. These are the chances. You are 5x more likely to X, Y, Z.” So know that I don’t want to make it sound like we are shaming anybody else for the different ways that they give the message of risk. Am I making sense? 

Julie: Yeah, and you know what? I feel like sometimes it’s just about giving people the benefit of the doubt. We want to give providers the benefit of the doubt just because it’s probably something that they’ve continuously heard and spoken and that’s okay because we do it too sometimes. We go on that thing like, “Oh my gosh, maternal death.” I think the risk of maternal death is 10x higher in a C-section than it is in a VBAC which sounds really scary and makes me never ever want to have a C-section again, but when you look at that, it’s .00001% to .0001% or whatever is 10x more. It is such a small level of risk, but it is higher. 

I feel like trying to look at both absolute and relative risk for any given thing together is really, really important. Yeah. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Give us the benefit of the doubt. We are in such an awful cultural climate right now where it’s easy for people, especially on social media to jump on the attack train for anybody when we feel triggered or when we feel like people are being unjust to us or to other people and I hate that so stinking bad. 

Whenever I catch myself with those feelings, I try to take a step back and I’ve actually gotten pretty good at that, but it’s so easy for us to get on that bandwagon of just railing against people who present information in certain ways or railing people without getting all of the information about that person.

Before I go off too much on a soapbox in that direction, yeah. I feel like your provider when they are saying those things is probably not trying to coerce you into anything. Our providers, especially our hospital providers are incredibly overworked. They are incredibly stressed. Their time management skills have got to be off the charts because they are so overloaded with everything and they just don’t have time to automatically sit down and explain things. 

But you know what I have found? Most of them, when you stop them and ask questions, they are more than happy to answer and explain. Sometimes, they are just repeating things they have heard all the time or that they have learned at some point or another without giving them a second glance. 

Do you know what? We all do that too. Me, Meagan, you listening right now. We all do that. We hear things. We regurgitate them. We hear things. We regurgitate them and we don’t even think about questioning or challenging those things until somebody else brings it up to us to question or challenge those things. 

So, don’t be afraid to ask your provider for more information or ask them what the real numbers are to those things. I have a really special place in my heart for our CBAC moms because there are lots of things that they are working through, so many emotional things, but I challenge not just people who have had a repeat Cesarean that was unwanted, but people just in all life, when something triggers you online, stop and explore that. Stop and question because that is probably an area of your life that you could use a little healing and work on. It could be a little bit of work. It could be a lot of work, but usually, when something triggers you, it’s a challenge to look into it more because there is something that your body and mind have an unhealthy relationship with that needs to be addressed. 

Julie: Anyways, circling it back to risk. Meagan, take it away. 

Meagan: I just want to drop a shameless plug on our radical acceptance episodes that we did, so kind of piggybacking off of what she just said. We dive into that a little bit deeper in our radical acceptance episode. It really is so hard and like what she said, our heart goes out to moms that have a scheduled C-section that didn’t want to schedule a C-section or felt like they were in a corner or felt like that was the best option, but not the option they wanted. There are so many feelings, but definitely go listen to radical acceptance part one and part two. 

25:29 Risk of blood transfusion in VBAC, second C-section, and third C-section

Meagan: I just want to quickly go down a couple of little risks. Blood transfusion– we have a 1.89% or 1 in 53 chance of a blood transfusion with a VBAC. To me, 1.89% is pretty low, to me, but it might not be to some. I don’t know, Julie. How do you say the other? Okay, then blood transfusion in a repeat Cesarean is 1.65% in the second C-section. It’s lower. So for vaginal birth, it’s higher. I’m not good at math. 

Julie: No, vaginal birth, yeah. That’s true. So 1 in 53 for VBAC versus a 1 in 65 for a repeat Cesarean. Yes, right. 

Meagan: For a third Cesarean, the chances of a blood transfusion go to 2.26%. 

Julie: Yes, so it’s like 50% higher than if you have a VBAC for the third Cesarean, but it’s slightly lower for the second C-section. See? I feel like we could have talked about this before, but I don’t know if we say it often enough. When you are talking about overall risk for VBAC versus C-section, when you are looking at just the second birth, right? So first birth was a C-section, what are you going to do for your second birth? The risks overall are pretty similar for vaginal birth versus Cesarean. The overall total risk is pretty similar as far as your chances of having major complications and things like that. 

But when you get into three, four, five, six C-sections and vaginal births, that’s when you really start to see significant changes in those risks. See? I used the word “significant” again, but we’re going to talk about where the more C-sections you have, the higher your chances of having complications you have. The more vaginal births you have, your chances of complications actually go down. 

So when you are looking at if you want more than two kids, that might be something that you want to consider. If you are done with two kids, then that might be something that is not as big of a player in your choices. So yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah. Then there are things like twins. So when I was talking about it earlier, the word significantly, there was a systematic– I almost said something– systemic. 

Julie: Systemic review? 

Meagan: Yeah, see? I can’t say it correctly. I can’t. Published– oh, I’m trying to remember when it was published. We will get it in the show notes. It talks about the risk of uterine rupture with twins and it does say. It says “significantly higher in women with twin gestation”. That’s kind of hard, I feel like because again, like we were saying, some reviews and studies and blogs and all of these things wouldn’t say the word significantly. They may share a different one. I’m going to see if I can find the actual– maybe Julie can help me while I’m talking– study. 

Okay, it says three out of four studies in a group of zero cases of uterine rupture. Notably, the study with the largest patient population reported cases of uterine rupture in both groups and demonstrated a significantly greater risk of uterine rupture in the VBAC group. Meanwhile, the other three studies found no significant difference between rates of uterine rupture among groups 31-33. Nevertheless, the study shows that electing–”

Okay, so I’m just going to say. It says, “Electing to have a PRCD reduces but does not eliminate the small risk of uterine rupture.” So what I’m reading here is that in some of them, it showed significantly greater, but then in 3 out of 4 reviews, and I don’t even know actually how many people were in each of these reviews, but in 4 reviews, one had a greater risk and three didn’t really show much of a difference, but we see that in the very beginning right here. “Uterine rupture is significantly higher in women with twins.” What do you think? If you are carrying twins and you see that, Julie, significantly higher enters into the vocabulary at all, what do you think?

Julie: Well, I think I would want to schedule a C-section for my twins, probably. 

Meagan: Probably. 

30:37 Understanding the meaning of statistical significance 

Julie: I want to just go off on a little tangent here for a second. I think it’s really important when we are talking about studies that we know what statistically significant means because sometimes if you don’t know much about digging into studies and things like that which I’m not going to go into too much right now– 

Meagan: It’s difficult. 

Julie: It is difficult. It’s really hard which is why I’m not going to go into it because I feel like we could have a whole hour-long podcast just for that. Statistically significant really just means that the difference or the increase or the change that they are looking into is not likely to be explained by chance or by random numbers which is why when you have a larger study, the results are more likely to be statistically significant because there is less room for error basically. 

A .1% increase can be just as statistically significant as a 300% increase because it just comes down to whether they are confident that it is a result that is not related to any chance or external environmental factors. I feel like it’s really important to clarify that just because something is statistically significant doesn’t mean that it’s big, catastrophic, or a lot, it just means that it’s not likely to be due to chance or anything random. 

32:05 “The United States is intervention intensive.” 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. Okay. There was one other thing I wanted to share. This was published in the Journal of Perinatal Education and it is a little more dated. It’s been 10 years or so, but I just wanted to read it because it was really interesting to me. It doesn’t even exactly go with risk and things, but it just talks about your chances which I guess, to me– do you know what I”m trying to say? 

Julie: They kind of go hand in hand. 

Meagan: To me, at least, they do. So when I read this, I was like, “Well, this is interesting.” I just wanted to drop it here and I think it’s more just eye-opening. It says, “Maternity care in the United States is intervention intensive.” Now, if we didn’t know this already, I don’t know where I’ve been in the doula world for the last 10 years. Right? You guys, as doulas, obviously, we’re not medical professionals, but as doulas, we see a lot of intervention and a lot of intervention that is completely unnecessary and a lot of intervention that leads to traumatic birth, unexpected or undesired outcomes and then they lead to other unnecessary interventions. It’s the cascade. We talk about the domino effect or the cascade of interventions, but this is real so for them to type out, “Maternity care in the United States is intervention intensive–”

Julie: You’re like, “Yeah, where have you been?” Not you, but the writer. 

Meagan: Yeah, the writer. Yeah. It says, “The most recent national survey–” Now, again keep in mind it is 2024. This has been a minute since this was written. 

Julie: About 10+ years. 

Meagan: 10-12 years. Just keep that in mind. But it was interesting to me that even 10-12 years ago, this was where we were at because I feel like since I started as a doula, I’ve seen the interventions increase– the inductions, the unnecessary Cesareans increase a lot. 

Julie: Some of them, yeah. Yeah, especially inductions and Pitocin. 

Meagan: Not all of the time. I cannot tell you that in 10 out of 10 births that I attend, this is the case but through the years of me beginning doula work and what I have witnessed, it’s increased. At least here in Utah, it seems that it has increased. 

It says, “The most recent national survey of women’s pregnancy, birth, and postpartum experience reports that for women who gave birth in June 2011-2012,” so a little bit ago, “89% of women experienced electronic fetal monitoring.” Okay. 

Julie: That seems actually low to me for hospital births. 

Meagan: It does seem low because to me–

Julie: I wonder if there had been a ton of stop and drops or something. 

Meagan: I don’t know, but I agree. 89%. I feel like the second you get into the hospital, no matter VBAC or not, they want to monitor your baby. 

Julie: Strapped onto the monitor, yeah. 

Meagan: It says, “66% continuously.” So out of the 89%, it says 66% were continuously meaning they didn’t do the intermittent every 30 minutes to an hour checking on baby for a quick 15 minutes to get another baseline, they just left that monitor on them which makes me wonder why. Usually, when a client of mine goes in and has that, they’re like, “Oh, your baby had a weird decel so we are going to leave the monitor on longer,” and then they don’t say anything. They just keep it on there. Maybe that’s– I don’t know. 

It says, “62% received intravenous fluids.” 

Julie: IV fluids. 

Meagan: Which to me, is also a lot. 

36:27 Eating during labor and the risk of aspiration under anesthesia

Meagan: “79% experienced restrictions on eating.” 79%. You guys, we need to eat. We need to fuel our bodies. We are literally running a marathon times five in labor. We shouldn’t be not eating, but 79% which doesn’t surprise me, and “60% experienced restrictions on drinking in labor.” Why? Why are we being restricted from drinking and eating in labor unless we have other plans for how labor may go? 

Julie: That’s exactly what it is. They’re preparing you for an emergency Cesarean. That’s what they’re doing. That’s exactly what restricting non-IV fluids is. It’s not only that, but it is preparing you for the incredibly low risk of you having to go under general anesthesia, and then even people that go under general anesthesia have an incredibly low risk of aspirating and that is what it’s coming down to. Don’t even get me started on all of the flaws in all of the studies that went over aspiration during general anesthesia anyway because they are so significantly flawed that we are basing denying women energy and fuel during labor based on flawed studies that are incredibly outdated and on incredibly low risk during an incredibly already low risk. 

I mean, you probably don’t want to down a cheeseburger while you’re having a baby. I don’t know. Maybe me. Just kidding. Even I didn’t want a cheeseburger, but I wanted some little snacks, and some water to keep you hydrated. Yes. Oh my goodness. Let’s please stop this. Sorry. Stepping off the soapbox. 

Meagan: You know, there is a provider here. I actually can’t remember her name. It was way back in the beginning of my doula career and actually, it was in an area that is not one of my more common areas to serve. It was outside of my serving area. Anyway, we were at a birth and there was an induction. I remember being in there with her and the provider, an OB, walks in and is like, “Hey, how are you doing?” He was so friendly and kind and asked some questions like, “How are you feeling? What are you thinking about this?” 

Then she was getting ready to leave and she turned back and said, “Hey. I just thought about this. Have you eaten anything?” The mom was like, “No.” She was like, “Uh, you need to eat.” 

Julie: Yeah!

Meagan: She had an epidural at this point. The mom was like, “Wait, what?” She was like, “You need to eat.” I literally remember my jaw falling, but had to keep my mouth up because I didn’t want to look like I was weird. 

Anyway, I said, “That’s something I’ve not usually heard from an OB especially after someone’s had an epidural.” She was like, “Oh, I am very passionate about this.” She was like, “When I was finishing up school and graduating,” she had to write some big thing. 

Julie: Her dissertation probably. 

Meagan: Time capsule, I don’t even remember what it was called. Some really, really big thing. She was like, “I specifically found passion about the lack of eating and drinking in labor.” She was like, “I did all of this stuff and what I found was you are more likely–” Here comes risk. “You are more likely to be struck in the head twice by lightning–” This is what she said. “Twice by lightning than you are to aspirate in a Cesarean after having an epidural.” 

Julie: I love this lady. Who is it? 

Meagan: I can’t remember. I will have to text my client. 

Julie: Where was it? What hospital? 

Meagan: It was up in Davis County. 

Julie: Oh, interesting. 

Meagan: It was not an area for me. I said, “Whoa, really?” She said, “Yeah. You need to get that girl some food.” I was like, “Done. 100%.” 

Julie: More likely to get struck by lightning. 

Meagan: More likely to get struck by lightning twice in the head than you are to aspirate in a Cesarean after receiving an epidural. That stuck with me forever. Literally, here we are 10 years later. 

Julie: I love that because first of all–

Meagan: I don’t have documentation to prove that. She just said that. 

Julie: That is 100% relative risk. Aspirating during a C-section relative to getting struck by lightning twice. So that’s cool. What are the numbers? I know that the numbers are super incredibly low and I feel like when you put in context like that, getting struck by lightning twice, I don’t know anybody that’s been struck by lightning once and who has been alive to tell about it. I know of a friend whose sister got struck by lightning and died when she was very young. I only know one person in my entire life who has been struck by lightning. 

Meagan: I just looked it up really quick. I don’t even know if this is credible. I literally just looked it up really quickly. It says that the odds that one will be struck by lightning in the US during one’s lifetime is 1 in 15,300. 

Julie: Wow. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Julie: So twice that is 1 in 30,000. That’s a freaking low risk. Anyway, what I’m saying is that I love that OB first of all. I feel like from what I’ve read about aspiration under general anesthesia during a C-section seems right in line with those numbers and those chances because it’s so rare, it’s almost unheard of especially now with all of the technology that we have. 

It’s fine because I’m not going to go on that soapbox. I love that. I love that analogy and that we’re talking about that because 10 years from now or when our daughters are having babies, they’re going to talk about how their poor moms couldn’t eat when they were in labor because of the policies just like we talk about the twilight sleep and how our poor grandmas had to undergo twilight sleep when our moms were being born. 

I feel like that’s just going to be one of those things where we will look back and be like, “What were we thinking?” 

43:03 Epidurals, Pitocin, AROM, episiotomies, and C-section percentages

Meagan: Okay, I’m going to finish this off. It says, “67% of women who gave birth vaginally had an epidural during labor and 37% were given Pitocin to speed up their labors.” Sorry, but come on. That also may go to show, that we’re going to do an epidural episode as well, that epidural maybe does really slow down labor. Maybe it really does impact the body’s response to continuing labor in a natural way, so 31% of those people had to have help and assistance. 

It says, “20% of women had their membranes artificially ruptured,” which means they broke your bag of water artificially with the little whatever, breaking bag water hook thing versus it breaking spontaneously. 

Julie: Amniohook. Is it an amniohook? 

Meagan: Amniohook, yeah. 

“17% of women had an episiotomy.” I don’t know. 

Julie: I feel like those numbers are probably lower now. 

Meagan: I think that’s changed, yeah. “31% had a Cesarean.”

Julie: That is right in line with the national average. 

Meagan: It is, still. “The high use of these interventions reflects a system-wide maternity care philosophy expecting trouble. There is an increasing body of research that suggests that the routine use of these interventions rather than decreasing the risk of trouble in labor and birth actually increases complications for both women and their babies.” 

44:43 The perspective of birth doulas and birth photographers

Julie: I believe it. Do you know what? Can I just get on another tangent here because I know that you all love my tangents? I really wish that somebody somewhere would do something and I don’t know what that something is, to get the voices of birth doulas and birth photographers heard because this is why. Doulas and birth photographers– I’ve said this before. We see births in all of the places. We have a really, really unique point of view about birth in the United States because we attend births at home. We attend unassisted births. We attend births at home with unlicensed providers. We attend births at home and births at birth centers with licensed providers. We attend in-hospital births with midwives and we attend in-hospital births with OB/GYNs and some of us are lucky enough to attend out-of-hospital births with OB/GYNs because there are a handful of them floating around. 

We see birth in every single variety that it takes in the United States. I really wish that someone somewhere would do something to get those voices lifted and amplified because I feel like yes, a lot of that is going to be anecdotal, but I feel like the stories there have so much value with the state of our system in the relationship between home and hospital birth, how birth transfers happen when births need to be transported to hospitals, the mental health of the people giving birth, the providers and the care, and all of that. 

I feel like, like I said, somebody should do something to do something with all of that information that we all carry with us. I think it could provide so much value somewhere, right? I don’t know what yet, but if anybody has an idea, message me. Find me on Instagram at @juliefrancombirth. Find me. Message me if you have any ideas. Maybe write a book or something. I don’t know. 

Meagan: I’ve wanted to do an episode and title it “From a Doula’s Perspective”. We could do that from a birth photographer and all that, but it’s crazy. It’s crazy. 

Julie: We see it all. 

Meagan: There was a birth just the other day with one of our sweet, dear clients where the provider was saying things that seemed scary even though the evidence of what was happening was really not scary, went into a scheduled induction, and the way they were handling it, I felt so guilty as a doula and I was like, “This is going to turn Cesarean. This is not good.” Sure enough, it did and it broke my heart because I was like, “None of that needed to happen,” but again, it goes to us deciding what’s best for us. That mom had to decide what was best for her with the facts that we were giving, what the doctor was giving, and all of these things. 

Again, we don’t judge anyone for the way they birth, but it’s sometimes so hard to see people not get the birth they wanted or desired, or to have people literally doubt their ability because someone said something to them. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: You know–

Julie: Yeah. I agree. It’s just interesting. Anyways. 

Meagan: We are getting off our topic of risk, but risk is a hard conversation to have because there are different numbers. It can be presented differently and like I said, it can also have a tone to it that adds a whole other perspective. So know that if you are given a risk, it’s okay to research that and question it and see if that really is the real risk and if that’s the evidence-based information. We like to provide them here like we were saying earlier. We may be guilty and I hope you guys stick with us if we share some that might be a little jarring on both sides of the VBAC and C-section, but we love you. We’re here for you. We understand risks are scary. They are also hard to break down and understand, but we are here for you. 

I love you guys and yeah. Anything else, Julie?

Julie: No. I just want to say be kind to each other. Give each other the benefit of the doubt. Do everything you can to make the best decisions for you. Trust your intuition and find the right support team. We’re all just trying to do our best– us at The VBAC Link, you as parents, providers as providers, and if you feel like you need to make a change, make it. 

Meagan: Make it. All right, okay everybody. We’ll talk to you later. 

Julie: Bye!

Closing

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