A podcast about Christian theology and the shape it takes in the lives of believers and the church, particularly framed within the Bible&#39;s big story of the coming of God&#39;s Kingdom through his Messiah, Jesus.

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/25/21/6f424792-526b-40ed-a1f3-da1d307dca15_i_convince_my_pastor_that_psa_is_not_biblical_.mp3

Can a multi-conversation deep dive into scripture actually change a pastor’s mind on Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA)?In this final episode of our series, James and I sit down to reflect on our journey through scripture, theology, and church life. We address the core pillars of PSA—from divine justice and sacrificial systems to how we interpret key biblical texts. More importantly, we discuss how to navigate these tough theological conversations while preserving unity within the local church body.Timestamps &amp; Chapters00:00 - Reflecting on the Series Journey 03:25 - Preserving Unity When We Disagree 07:30 - Key Insight: Redefining Divine Justice 10:10 - Connecting the Cross to the Genesis Story 17:10 - The Verdict: Has James Changed His View on PSA? 22:30 - How to Navigate Theological Shifts in a Local Church 30:10 - Does Rejecting PSA Diminish or Elevate the Cross? 38:05 - Final Thoughts &amp; Closing Reflections Watch the full series on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_QNfsjcDqI&amp;list=PLADgxDyPVqwk8MjYru95hSj7Et2l9s5vL&amp;pp=sAgC Website: www.thestoryandtheshape.com Facebook: www.facebook.com/TheStoryAndTheShape

So, Did I Convince My Pastor That PSA Is Not Biblical? [Ep15]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/1/8/ded88770-574a-434f-b1a8-bcc0dd74df81_sharing_the_gospel.mp3

When you take Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) out of the equation, what does the Gospel actually sound like? How do you explain the Good News to an unbeliever—or equip an evangelist—without defaulting to a theological lecture or starting with “you’re a sinner going to hell”?In this episode, we put ourselves to the test with a blind-reaction challenge: each of us recorded a private, 10-minute “elevator pitch” of the Gospel for a modern Western listener—without relying on PSA. Then we played them to each other for the first time on camera.We dive into:- How the biblical story—from Creation to Babel to Israel—shapes the Gospel.- “Jesus is Lord” as a declaration of victory over Death, Depravity, and Shame.- Why repentance means more than personal guilt or simply “saying sorry.”- How to tailor the Gospel to real people and real longings—from social justice and creation care to self-betterment. 00:00 What Is the Gospel Without PSA?03:14 The 10-Minute Gospel Challenge04:39 Pitch 1: Kingdom, Creation &amp; New Humanity14:34 Why Context &amp; Connection Matter19:10 Pitch 2: Victory Over Death, Depravity &amp; Shame25:53 Live Reaction &amp; Crossover Themes29:09 What About Repentance?35:58 Tailoring the Gospel to Real People40:01 Politics, Social Justice &amp; Human Longing47:00 Evangelism Is a Team Sport48:56 Share Your Pitch in the Comments!

How Do You Share the Gospel Without PSA? [Ep14]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/24/10/309dd833-6a5c-4eb0-9818-952adf5bfc26_did_jesus_die_the_death_we_deserve_.mp3

Why did Jesus die the specific, violent death of crucifixion rather than dying of old age? In this episode, we challenge the popular assumption that all humans &#34;deserve the cross&#34; and unpack three distinct biblical layers to Jesus&#39; death:- Mortality: Participating in Adam&#39;s fallen human condition.- Israel&#39;s Covenant Curse: Enduring the corporate consequences of Israel&#39;s covenant unfaithfulness and Roman occupation.- Solidarity with Unjust Sufferers: Identifying with those who suffer and die unjustly because of human sin.Rather than flattening the cross into a generic penalty, we explore how Jesus conquers mortality, covenant curse, and unjust suffering from the inside out — bringing humanity through death and into a new covenant and a new humanity. 00:00 – Why the Cross?02:50 – Rethinking Penal Substitution04:17 – Layer 1: Humanity, Mortality, and the Fall in Genesis08:56 – Is Death Punishment or Consequence?13:24 – Did Everyone Deserve a Brutal Crucifixion?15:03 – Layer 2: Israel’s Story &amp; Galatians 320:57 – The Curse of the Law &amp; Covenant Unfaithfulness28:56 – Roman Occupation, Exile, and the Prophecies of Daniel37:58 – How the Cross Literally Fulfills the Messianic Profile40:36 – Layer 3: Jesus and Unjust Sufferers46:33 – Good News for the Suffering

Did Jesus Die the Death We Deserve? [Ep13]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/14/0/dc9ca25c-0769-44a0-8658-ac12c9f524ed_why_was_the_tower_of_babel_so_bad_.mp3

Why was Babel so bad?The usual answers—pride, or refusing to spread out—don’t seem to fit the extreme consequence of the nations being alienated from God. In this episode we look at Genesis 6, Deuteronomy 32, and the New Testament to explore a bigger possibility: that Babel was humanity’s attempt to recreate the rebellion of the Watchers and seize divine knowledge that was never meant for them. 00:00 Why Babel Matters03:59 The Real Problem08:00 Before the Flood13:42 The Watchers20:12 Reading Babel23:29 The Tower&#39;s Purpose29:09 Making a Name31:35 Judgment or Mercy?37:02 Reclaiming the Nations43:01 Paul&#39;s Gospel48:16 Why It Matters Today

Why Was The Tower of Babel So Bad? [Ep12]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/7/31/7/eeafcb17-c2b3-4ab6-a5f1-11240778e2ee_e_cross____colossians_2_14-15_explained__ep11_.mp3

What was actually nailed to the cross in Colossians 2:14–15?Many Christians have been taught that the &#34;record of debt&#34; in Colossians refers to our sins or the punishment we deserved. But is that what Paul is actually saying?In this episode we explore one of the New Testament&#39;s most discussed passages about the cross, examining it in its literary and historical context to unpack the meaning of the &#34;record of debt,&#34; the rulers and authorities, the elemental spiritual forces, and why Paul&#39;s first-century audience would have understood this passage very differently from many modern readers. Whether you agree with our conclusions or not, we hope this conversation encourages you to return to the text and read it with fresh eyes. 📌 Link to Kyu Seop Kim’s paper on Cheirographon in Colossians 2:14:https://www.tyndalebulletin.org/article/29436-the-meaning-of-in-colossians-2-14-revisited.pdf

What Was Nailed To the Cross? (Colossians 2:14-15) [Ep11]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/7/17/7/6f33f153-7a14-4c71-aa1c-7d158172b06e_how_israel_s_sacrifices_explain_the_cross.mp3

How do Israel’s greatest sacrifices (Passover, Covenant, and Day of Atonement) help us understand what Jesus accomplished on the cross?In this episode we continue our series exploring the cross by looking at the big story of Scripture. We show how the New Testament doesn’t just use random sacrificial language about Jesus — it intentionally places His death and resurrection inside Israel’s story as the ultimate fulfilment of Passover, the New Covenant, and the Day of Atonement.We explore:• Why Jesus died at Passover and what that reveals about deliverance from slavery to sin• The significance of the unleavened bread and the cup at the Last Supper• How the New Covenant is an act of forgiveness and identity transformation• A fresh look at the Day of Atonement and what Jesus is really offering as High PriestThis is a rich, hope-filled conversation about how the cross creates a new humanity, a new exodus, and a new covenant people.

How Israel's Sacrifices Explain the Cross [Ep10]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/7/1/23/640dd7f9-ac00-44ae-912e-f1390c15db5b_ly_achieved__without_penal_substitution___ep9_.mp3

What does the cross actually achieve if Jesus wasn’t dying as a penal substitute? In this episode we reframe the mechanics of salvation around participation, liberation from sin’s power, and the launch of new creation.We explore how Jesus broke the old contracts of sin, death, and the law through His death and resurrection — so we could be truly freed and made new. Timestamps:00:00 - Reframing the Cross04:10 - Why Modern Christianity Gets It Wrong08:55 - What Are We Saved From?14:20 - The Cross Breaks Contracts20:10 - The Romans 7 Mechanic26:00 - Breaking Slavery to Sin32:10 - The Purpose of the New Covenant38:40 - Resurrection &amp; New Humanity47:00 - Discipleship Implications

What the Cross Actually Achieved (Without Penal Substitution) [Ep9]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/6/20/4/ea48a746-7405-4d8f-a339-cbcee6b560fa__ep_8__did_jesus_really_die_instead_of_us_.mp3

Did Jesus really die instead of us? When the New Testament says that **Jesus died for our sins**, does that automatically mean **penal substitution**—or is there another biblical way to understand the cross?In this episode of **The Story and the Shape Podcast**, we explore whether Scripture presents Jesus’ death as a case of **substitution**, or whether the Bible more often works with a pattern of **corporate participation**: the idea that people can share in the consequences of a group because they belong to the group. We look at key biblical passages and themes including:* **Achan and corporate guilt** in Joshua 7* **Adamic humanity** and why “in Adam all die” matters* **Jesus entering Israel’s story** as well as humanity’s story* **Isaiah 53** and whether it really teaches penal substitution* **Galatians 3** and the meaning of “the curse of the law”* **2 Corinthians 5** and what it means that Christ was “made to be sin”* **1 Peter 2** and participation in Christ’s suffering and deathThe big question of this episode is whether Jesus died **instead of us**, or whether he entered fully into the human condition and **shared in the consequences of human sin** in order to bring us through death into resurrection life.If you’ve ever wrestled with questions around **atonement theology**, **penal substitutionary atonement (PSA)**, **the meaning of the cross**, or how to read verses like *“Christ died for our sins”* in context, this conversation is for you. 00:00 – Jesus Died “For Our Sins”?01:06 – Achan: One Sin, Many Suffer05:10 – The Bible’s Corporate Worldview07:45 – Jesus Joined Adamic Humanity12:10 – Jesus Enters Israel’s Story16:03 – Participation in Christ’s Death18:13 – Isaiah 53 Reconsidered21:21 – The Curse of the Law27:29 – He Entered Our Story in Love36:13 – Participation, Not Substitution?

Did Jesus Really Die Instead Of Us? Rethinking Substitution in the Bible [Ep8]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/6/5/6/f3cc0c45-97b1-481a-b705-b620c0d99c94_ep_7_-_sacrifice_in_israel_s_story.mp3

In this episode we explore three major sacrifices in Israel’s story - Passover, the Covenant ratification at Sinai, and the Day of Atonement. Far from working the same way, each one uses blood differently and plays a unique role in the bigger narrative.We examine what the blood is actually doing in each case and why the common assumption of penal substitution doesn’t line up with the biblical story. A foundational episode for understanding how the New Testament applies sacrificial imagery to Jesus. 00:00 Three Sacrifices, One Story02:15 Recap: Blood &amp; Relationship03:36 Passover – The Warding Blood05:18 Dismantling Substitution11:48 Blood as Life &amp; Protection13:35 Covenant at Sinai15:16 Blood of the Covenant21:18 Sealing the Relationship27:46 Day of Atonement – Cleansing33:19 The Scapegoat &amp; Removal35:35 One Story, Three Functions38:30 Final Thoughts &amp; Next Time

Passover → Covenant → Atonement: Three Sacrifices, One Story. [Ep7]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/5/23/5/a45fdb9e-fde8-4ce3-a23a-ed4936206081_e_to_die____rethinking_old_testament_sacrifice.mp3

Why did animals actually die in biblical sacrifice? In Episode 6 of the podcast, we challenge the standard courtroom framework of Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) and explore how ancient Israelite sacrifice was really about relational gift-giving, life, and purification.For many modern Christians, the default view of biblical sacrifice is a legal transaction: an animal dies as a substitute to suffer the death penalty for a person&#39;s sin. But does this courtroom model actually hold up under biblical scrutiny? In this episode, we put a spanner in the works of standard PSA logic by looking at the actual mechanics of Levitical law. We discuss why &#34;sin offerings&#34; were required for completely non-moral things like childbirth, skin diseases, mildewed houses, and even inanimate objects like the altar itself.If blood doesn&#39;t represent a demand for death and punishment, what does it mean? We dive into the ancient perspective that blood symbolizes a potent force of life - the ultimate ritual cleaning agent used to push back the forces of death, mortality, and ritual decay so that a holy God can dwell among his people. This episode is also available on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/jEJbA_vF1Ec Books Mentioned:- &#34;Leviticus on the Butcher&#39;s Block&#34; by Phil Bray (YouTube: Leviticus is Fun)- &#34;Lamb of the Free&#34; by Andrew Rillera 00:00 - The Distortion of Biblical Sacrifice02:06 - Debunking the Courtroom Model (PSA)06:36 - Israel&#39;s Actual Criminal Justice System08:21 - The Throne Room: Relationship &amp; Gift-Giving09:48 - Why the Priests Offered God &#34;Food&#34;13:57 - The Shared Meal: Participating with God18:10 - The Real Reason the Animal Dies21:12 - The Logic of Blood Atonement &amp; Cleansing28:33 - Sin Offerings for Altars, Houses, &amp; Childbirth34:32 - Where Sin Offerings Appear in the Gospels38:18 - Does the Sacrificial System Support PSA?

Why Did an Animal Have to Die? | Rethinking Old Testament Sacrifice [Ep 6]

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/5/9/8/9cc476e7-9823-44e8-8088-02c44253e675_y_teach_psa__rethinking_propitiation___justice.mp3

In episode #5 of the podcast we take a deep dive into one of the most important atonement passages in the New Testament. What does “hilasterion” (often translated &#34;propitiation&#34;) really mean? Is God the one being propitiated, or is He offering humanity a gift?We explore the original meaning of the word in both Jewish and Greco-Roman contexts, the true nature of God’s justice, and why this passage may not be saying what many assume. A fresh look at justice, faithfulness, and reconciliation that challenges common assumptions about the cross.If you’ve ever wrestled with how God can be both just and the justifier, this episode is for you. 00:00 Intro03:10 The Word Propitiation09:25 Direction of the Gift12:45 Faith As Loyalty22:30 What Hilasterion Really Means37:20 Trojan Horse &amp; Augustus50:40 Amnesty &amp; Reconciliation56:50 Final Thoughts Music by PaulYudin - https://pixabay.com/music/rock-sport-sport-music-490393/

Ep5: Does Romans 3:25-26 Really Teach PSA? // Rethinking Propitiation & Justice

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/4/28/13/4754b064-b901-4308-abdd-777f6eae4870_bible_doesn_t_define_justice_the_way_you_think.mp3

Most Christians assume that God’s justice means punishment for wrongdoing. But what if the Bible presents a completely different picture? In this episode, we look at how “justice” is actually used in the Old Testament and why that might challenge the idea that God’s justice is primarily retributive. This is part of an ongoing series exploring the cross, the gospel, and the assumptions behind penal substitutionary atonement.

Ep 4: Is God's Justice About Retribution... or Restoration?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/4/11/7/479b96e2-6c3b-4ad2-932e-7ce06e245228_ep_3__does_god_need_to_punish_to_forgive__.mp3

What if God doesn’t actually need to punish sin before He can forgive us?In this episode of the podcast, we take a close look at one of the most common assumptions in modern Christianity: that God can’t forgive without someone being punished. We trace the idea back to Anselm’s satisfaction theory, examine John Stott’s arguments in &#34;The Cross Of Christ&#34;, and ask whether this is really a biblical concept or a man-made framework placed on top of Scripture.We dive into the Old Testament (Psalms, Micah, Isaiah, Jonah), the parable of the unmerciful servant, and why penal substitution might actually be trying to solve an imaginary problem.Watch this episode on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/yTiaw9EFeGYIntro music by PaulYudin - https://pixabay.com/music/rock-sport-sport-music-490393/

Ep3: What If God Doesn't Need to Punish to Forgive?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/3/30/10/d5ef556e-8a70-4369-a441-0e5707064835__emotion_blocks_honest_debate_about__atonement.mp3

In this episode, we unpack why discussions about penal substitution often get intensely emotional before anyone even opens the Bible. We explore how feelings of guilt, safety, and fear can shut down conversation, and why questioning this popular doctrine can feel like a major red flag to many Christians.Music by PaulYudin - https://pixabay.com/music/rock-sport-sport-music-490393/

Ep2: Why Emotion Blocks Honest Debate About Atonement

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/3/27/22/d1b9f3ee-5975-4c55-ab5e-2bd7e1d8773e_ep_1__series_intro_.mp3

Is Penal Substitutionary Atonement really the gospel?In this first episode of The Story and the Shape Podcast, I kick off a deep dive conversation with my pastor James about the story of the Bible, the meaning of the cross, and whether penal substitutionary atonement really sits at the centre of it all.Watch on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/w-Gp1En5nY4

Ep 1: Can I Convince My Pastor Penal Substitution Isn't Biblical? (Series Intro)

A podcast about Christian theology and the shape it takes in the lives of believers and the church, particularly framed within the Bible's big story of the coming of God's Kingdom through his Messiah, Jesus.