jD and Brian Glaser get together this week on the Pavement Top 50 Countdown. They of course discuss Brian's Pavement origin story and then they reveal and talk about track 23 on the countdown.

Transcript:

Track 1:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 2:

[0:02] A stone-cold classic. This is the eighth song on our list from Pavement's penultimate album, Bright in the Corners. At 24, it's in. Jamie, what are your initial thoughts about this song? I think I remember really liking it kind of when I, you know, when you buy Bright in the Corners, you put it on, you go through the album, and it feels like a sensible, good closing song. The name kind of gives it away.

Track 1:

[0:30] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band, Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 3:

[0:38] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the result, choosing an abacus and a woman named Helen, who frankly looked kind of lost. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week we're joined by Pavement superfan, Brian from New Jersey. Brian, how are you doing, motherfucker? I'm doing alright. How are things in Canada? Things are just dynamite. the sky is bright blue the clouds are nice and fluffy it's sunny you know i'll take sunny even if it's a little bit below zero just uh rather than that gray shit that just you know ruins everything yeah how about you everything's great here yeah it's you know it's uh it's the weekend just getting to hang out i'm getting to talk about pavement yeah that's pretty good right, Well, let's do that then. Let's get your Pavement Origins story.

Track 3:

[1:52] So my Pavement Origins story, I feel like it is the most down-the-middle, ordinary one. But it's also, from listening to your podcast, it's essentially the inverse of yours. Okay. So I was a college radio DJ in the early 90s. And our college radio station, the music director, would call us into his dorm like once a week or once every other week uh all the djs would come in and he would have all of the recent releases and we would hit play and just see what was happening and what we might want to play on our radio shows and stuff like that and i remember.

Track 3:

[2:32] Slanted and enchanted dropping into this gathering and you know he hits play on summer babe um and And it was amazing. You know, I'm also, I'm a drummer, so I'm listening to this. And this great song, one of the hooks is the hi-hats. Yeah, that hi-hat wiggle or whatever you want to call it. What do you call that? I don't know. Wiggles as good as anything. But like, think of another song where like part of the hook is, you know, a little hi-hat flourish. So that blew my mind. And then, you know, Trigger Cut comes right after that. So I went from never hearing of this band to, you know, I'm in my, I'm probably like 19, sitting in a college dorm, listening to Slanted and Enchanted, and I am a billion percent in. Like, it's everything I like.

Track 3:

[3:30] It's everything I love. So, I was then just like, I was there for each record coming out, and I bought them as they came out. And I went to see the Crooked Rain tour, and I saw them on Lollapalooza, and I saw the Brighton the Corners tour. And I think by the time Bright in the Corners came out, I was a music journalist in Philadelphia. And I'm pretty sure I wrote a review of Bright in the Corners for somewhere.

Track 3:

[4:03] I bought Terror Twilight. So I bought all of them when they came out. I did not see – I missed the Terror Twilight show. I went to the other night of the matador anniversary show because the other one was headlined by Yola Tango and they're my number one I don't miss them uh and a buddy of mine went to the other one said that the pavement show that was when he had like the uh Malcolm has had the handcuffs dangling off of his microphone stand to show his displeasure um Um, And then, you know, after that, it just, it went from being a present tense thing to pavement went into past tense and I bought the reissues when they came out. Um, but I wasn't, when they got back together and we're playing in central park, I think my son had just been born. So I didn't go see that, but they were really just kind of a past tense thing for me. And then kind of two additional things happened. The first was the pandemic.

Track 3:

[5:16] And just because of the kind of music guy I am, when we got sent home to work remotely, I listen to music when I work from home and I like to set little projects or parameters for myself to make it interesting. I'll be like, today I'm only going to listen to songs that this drummer is on or whatever I'm going to do. Oh, cool. And since I thought we were just going home for like a month or two, I was like, I'm only going to listen to stuff I have on vinyl. No CDs, no streaming. It's just going to be vinyl. It'll make me stand up every 20 minutes and, you know, it'll just be like a fun little parameter because I have a bunch of vinyl, but it's not the biggest part of my collection. And the only pavement I had on vinyl, I had this extra live LP that Matador sold along with the Bright in the Corner, Nicene Creed's reissue.

Track 3:

[6:20] It's okay. But I also had Terror Twilight, which I had listened to. I bought it on vinyl, I listened to it, and I was like, eh, there's no spiral songs on here. It feels kind of clean. It just didn't connect. But by that time, I was listening to your podcast, and this was the only one that under my rules I could really listen to. So i listened to the shit out of terror twilight you know in 2020 so it had you know it'd been out and somewhere in the back of my head for a while but i really engaged with it um and so now i'm like all in on terror twilight all these years later and you know then they came back for their latter-day reunion shows. And my buddy and I turned 50 as they rolled into Brooklyn. And so we're like, and he lives not far from King's Theater, so we're like, we're going. And we went to one of the King's Theater nights in Brooklyn. And this is like the fourth or fifth time I've seen them. And, and, Suddenly, this was the best I'd ever seen them play.

Track 3:

[7:33] This is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm hearing about 2022. It was amazing. I guess I would describe when I went to those shows during the initial run, everyone was playing their parts as best they could, which was very good, but they were all just kind of doing their part of the band. Yeah. On this tour, they were together. I thought so, too.

Track 3:

[8:26] Enchanted in college when it came out. and we're looking at each other like we couldn't believe that this was the best pavement show we'd ever seen that's amazing it just didn't seem possible um right you know because that's not what reunion tours are for no not typically um and then i'll just add you know as part of my origin story it's been it's made me have a different extension of my origin story listening to you and the other people you have on the podcast who generally seem to have come in around Terror Twilight or even after the initial run.

Track 3:

[9:05] This may sound pretentious or silly or whatever you want to say, but it felt like you're not as invested in the narrative that popped up around Pavement in that initial run and that every record that came out was colored by the Pavement story. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. You know, because I think, especially with like Wowie Zowie Bright in the Corners and Terror Twilight, when those came out, They were part of like a reaction to what had happened the year before with them. And it was hard to listen to those just sort of on their own merits because you were listening to them as part of the narrative.

Track 3:

[9:50] And it's fun, like getting the chance to listen to them, not like that, sort of inspired by the way you're hearing them and your experience with them and the other people that you talk to. And it's really, it's changed my relationship with a lot of the records and a lot of the songs. Oh, wow. Do you have a specific example of a song? Well, I think I'll give an album example instead. The narrative of Bright in the Corners when it came out was, A, they got the shit back together after the wowie-zowie being all over the place. And also, everyone, maybe especially people who are music journalists, were very into the R.E.M. Connection because of the production. So I was sort of talking myself into hearing REM in that record, you know, because I'd heard Unseen Power, The Picket Fence, and I knew that they had REM's producers and all that. So I was like, I listened to it as their REM record. I've never thought of that. That's great. Yeah. Great. Well, and now I can just listen to it as, you know, here's some amazing Spiral Stairs songs and here's the band really playing together. Like that one might be the closest to how they're sounding now.

Track 3:

[11:18] That's a good call. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. So yeah, so that's an example of how it's changed here, getting out of the narrative. I'll also say something that colored my initial run through Pavement, and I don't think I've heard you talk about this before, is when they were at their initial peak, they were this huge and overwhelming influence on like indie rock so like i remember i was at maxwell's the week that crooked rain coming out not seeing pavement but just another band with you know two distorted guitars and a slacky attitude or whatever and in between all their songs they They talked about Crooked Rain.

Track 3:

[12:08] That was their stage banter. It was so... Are you serious? Yeah. It was just when Pavement did something, this small but invested community talked about it. And I remember getting the CD to review from this band called Number One Cup that no one's ever heard of. They didn't last very long. I think they only put out like one or two records. And the first song on the album, I remember kind of digging it, but feeling like it felt really familiar. So I'm playing it a few times. And I realized you could sing the lyrics to Summer Babe to this song. And they were essentially just making Pavement songs. They were completely ripping them off. Well, I don't think they were ripping them off. I think they were influenced too heavily. That's so nice. But that's the thing is like Pavement was this huge influence because-

Track 3:

[13:17] A lot of the other things happening at that time were, strangely enough, when you go back and listen to the Pavement catalog, was a lot noisier than Pavement.

Track 3:

[13:29] Archers of Loaf, Sonic Youth, Super Chunk, all that stuff, those are louder and punkier than Pavement for the most part. I'm not saying Pavement had a clean sound or anything like that. No, but Crooked Rain is pretty straightforward, you know, and then, like you said a moment ago, Bright in the Corners is, I don't understand how that didn't sell a jillion copies, you know? I know. It's such a good record. Not that the other ones aren't, but it's like mainstream good. Yeah i i mean i think my if i'm putting my critic hat on i think the answer to that is they chose the wrong single um stereo is a weird single right um i don't think anyone hearing that would be like get that right on the radio and you know this is my new pop thrill here right maybe start with shady lane yeah uh start with shady lane something like something like that, could have done it, but also I mean, honestly, cut your hair was a fluke, and I think it created this idea that Pavement could have hit singles, and maybe that just wasn't true.

Track 3:

[14:50] That's fair. Do you think it's true? Do you think they could have been a hit singles band?

Track 3:

[14:59] There's just some song every once in a while you hear it's not like father to a sister of thought um like i can see that being in like, like on a tv show like playing in the background near the end of the show and you know they're wrapping things up but no i suppose you're right few and far between there you know there's a There's a few that you can look at and say, okay, yeah, yeah, this has got the makeup of a mainstream hit song. But you're right, not many, because they were doing things that were very different than the mainstream. Very different. Yeah, and I remember going to the Lollapalooza when they were on the main stage. And you've seen the videos of people throwing mud at them and stuff like that. But part of the problem was that stage was just too big for them at that point. They can do it now, but I don't think they were ready for that.

Track 3:

[16:03] And you saw that show, you said, right? Not the one with the mud. I saw them in Camden, New Jersey on the Lollapalooza, you know, on that tour. And was it apparent there as well? Like it just. Yeah. Cause you know, I, I was sitting out on the lawn. It's, you know, it was touring those kinds of sheds where there's the seats up front and then a big lawn in the back and it's a summer day and you got your little pick a a mcbasket and your blanket and all that and it didn't really translate that far back in.

Track 3:

[16:35] A way that you know like cypress hill and sonic youth and even back who were on that tour like it translated into the bigger venue and they didn't wow that is wild stuff and i mean i don't mean that as a criticism no i think it's just you know it was the superpowers they had at the time it was you know it was more intimate um and it was you know again i don't think they had whatever it is that they've gathered up with age wisdom whatever you want to call it at this point where they can go out and you know jam on the hex or whatever for 10 minutes um and really make it work i don't think they had that in their arsenal yet no i suppose you're right.

Track 3:

[17:32] Yeah touring wasn't wasn't their strong strong point you know and yet it was fun and yet every show you saw or every every show that i've ever heard people talk about was amazing you know Because of the venue and because of the context and that good stuff. Yeah. And I mean, it could also be that part of their target audience is, you know, guys like me, guys like you who are, you know, ready to have that rush of emotion from, you know, from the experience that, you know, in our 20s or whatever was just kind of maybe we weren't mature enough for or open enough to. Yes. Yes. Well, should we flip the side here and talk about song number 23? Let's do it. Okay, we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with song number 23.

Track 1:

[18:35] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown.

Track 3:

[21:47] Well, there it is on the Top 50 Countdown. Song number 23 is the Spiral Stairs Gem, Kennel District. Brian from New Jersey.

Track 3:

[21:59] Give me the goods. This is ridiculously underrated. I'm going to say this one's top five. Well, or I'll caveat that. Either this or Date with Ikea, which in my mind, they're kind of, they're like, fraternal twin songs um you gotta have a spiral song in the top five like the pavement founding documents say this is a band founded by sm and spiral stairs and if that top five is all, coming out of malchemist i think you've done something wrong you know and if you're gonna have a spiral song in the top five i i would do this one um it's it's amazing i mean it was It was a lot of fun on the reunion tour. Yes. And that's, you know, I remember the night I went to King's Theater, they did not play Summer Babe and they did not play Here, but they played Kennel District. And I remember having like my little list of songs in my head that I was going to be bummed if I walked out and they didn't play. And that was one of them. But they tore it up. It was like it was a highlight of the show. Wow. Yeah, that's great.

Track 3:

[23:17] And, you know, one of the things, you know, I mentioned earlier, I'm listening to this a little bit as a drummer. One of the things I hear in the song, and I'm curious if you hear this too, I think it's a Gary drum beat in this tune.

Track 3:

[23:34] Really? Yeah, it's got that little off-kilter stumble. It's not evenly distributed beats. It kind of lurches a little bit as it's going forward. I hear it as Westy playing a Gary beat rather than playing Westy style on this. You know, there's something to that, because in my conversations with Spiral, and then the tracks that ended up, I think, on the Nicene Creators edition, where it's just Gary and Spiral doing songs. Maybe it was around Terror of Twilight time, actually, where it was them doing songs. And, uh...

Track 3:

[24:30] You know scott's always had a a pretty big place in his heart for gary you know so i wonder if you know in in creating the song even he was like westy can you give me something garyish you know yeah that's interesting it's there and you know i think the other reason i i love the song is like even though this is you know halfway through the catalog in in wowie zowie i don't know I know that this would have been completely out of place on the early EPs. So it's got that overdriven driving guitar. It's got the Gary beat. It's got the distorted vocals, but then the sing-along or shout-along refrain that carries you out. Like, it's, you know, if you place this next to, you know, on the same seven inches debris slide, I don't think you'd be like, one of these was recorded many years later, and I can hear it so clearly. You know, I think they're akin. It's got a little bit more sheen, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, but it's like the ingredients and the style are classic pavement rather than ladder pavement or whatever you want to call it. Right, right.

Track 3:

[25:56] Yeah, I think if you have a beat on what it could be about. No, like this. Like any pavement song, too tough, right? Right. It's too tough. And this one is even like I was doing a little internet trolling for the lyrics. Like the internet doesn't even agree what these lyrics are. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, I found, you know, especially the first line of the second verse, you know, I found the one I've got up on my screen right now says, I can't believe she's married to Roe, like fish egg Roe. I have too. And there's no way it's that. And I remember just in Googling a little, I found a couple other theories, but I find that hard to believe that's the lyric. Yeah, me too.

Track 3:

[26:53] Maybe that's why he's so incredulous. You can't believe it. Yeah, maybe. I also know that there's a lot of songwriters, and you've talked to Spiral a lot, so maybe he's given you some more insight into his process. But I know when you hear from a lot of songwriters, they talk about laying down the track first and just kind of putting some nonsense sounds or lyrics over it. And then some people will sit and write something very considered and serious when they go to do the lyrics. And then some people be like, oh, I almost said the word robe there. I guess I'll just stick with it. I wonder if that's what happened here.

Track 3:

[27:37] Yeah, because it's an interesting song because you're right. I don't quite know what it's about, but it makes me feel something. Because of the chorus. Um whatever you want to call it why didn't i ask why didn't i ask why didn't i ask and then going out there's something really like almost painful about that question you know like you really feel for the protagonists here like yeah what the fuck man why didn't you ask and what were you asking about and why is it important to you and all the rest but at the very least can Can you answer me the question? Why didn't you ask? Right. And then the delivery with the guitars, the beat, the buildup, you're not only singing along about regret, but you're doing it with your fist in the air. You're just like, you're all jacked up about regret. And there's nothing not to love about this song. Yeah. It's a good one.

Track 3:

[28:47] And I'm kind of curious. Chris, I know you've talked to Spiral a lot. Based on the sort of relationship you've built up with him over the last few years, do you have a sense of what he goes for in his songwriting, like how he's expressing himself? Yeah.

Track 3:

[29:09] It's really changed, I think. I think that his vocal has become much more of a tool. He used to sort of sing with that almost break, almost that pubescent break when he sang, and now his voice is sharp. It is right on. So I think he takes advantage of that a little bit more when writing a song, not lyric wise, but when he's writing a song in general, like he can be more melodic. And that's nice. Like that medley attack is a great record. It's a really good record. I'm going to listen to it today because it's really good. And then of course i i just can't help but draw the parallel between terror twilight and let it be.

Track 3:

[30:02] With paul and john completely shutting george out of the process and then george turns around and comes out with all all things must pass and it's holy shit it's a double record filled with some of the best songs you've ever heard and he had that in him and spiral came out with psoi and And while it's not all things must pass, it's holy shit, you were sitting on all these songs and you couldn't put one on fucking Terror of Twilight? You know? Yeah. And you know, I think one of the reasons I didn't connect with Terror of Twilight at the beginning is...

Track 3:

[30:39] Spiral to me is that the actual analogy i would use is lee ronaldo in sonic youth oh okay when you have those sonic youth records like you know obviously thurston and kim are the marquee and core sounds in there but like daydream nation without eric's trip and without hey joni it's not the masterpiece that it is without those and the lee ronaldo songs like Like they fit in the band, but they're a little off to the side of the rest of it. And, you know, it's super melodic and it's fun, but it's not what Thurston and Kim do for the rest of the record. And you're always like, when that, you know, when Moat or Disappearer pops up, I think those are his two on Goo.

Track 3:

[31:29] When those pop up on Goo, you're like, yeah, here we go. We're hearing Disappearer now. Now um did do i have that right that disappears the you're asking the wrong dude i'll have to do a sonic youth uh podcast at some point i mean initially that was my like i had a blind spot with early pavement i had a blind spot with the eps um like the three eps and so i thought well i'll do a podcast where i listen to each ep and you know talk about the ep and i was like well why don't i just do it like song by song you know and then that way i get to listen to everything thing and that's that was the genesis of this little beast yeah and i think you know with sonic youth you'd have the same experience where you know you're moving along and it's the songs you're used to and then this this gem pops up that's you know of a different color and a different tone a different palette and i think that's what spiral brings to these pavement records yeah i would agree with that and the shows like when you get that spiral break when kennel district comes out or date with ikea you're like yeah fuck yeah here we go we're doing this now yeah and we'll get back to that that malchmus thing but it's a great um like i i don't want to say interlude because that's not maybe it's like a great counterpoint.

Track 3:

[32:50] Yeah there's a bit of yin and yang right yeah absolutely sorry well uh i'll just repeat that my dogs are both in here yeah there's a bit of yin and yang right yeah absolutely, and you know being a fan of the Spiral songs doesn't make you less of a Pavement fan or even less of a Malchemist fan it's just, he's one of the main ingredients again it's this band was started by SM and Spiral Stairs so without him it's not Pavement right, I couldn't yeah I couldn't agree more.

Track 3:

[33:27] Well, Brian from New Jersey, do you have anything that you would like to plug or discuss with people on the World Wide Web? I guess the only thing I'll plug, I was playing drums in a band here in New Jersey that is now defunct. It went away with the pandemic, but we have stuff up on Bandcamp and everywhere. It's called Diecast Cars.

Track 3:

[33:52] Diecast Cars. Yeah, like the toy cars for kids. It would appeal very much appeal to fans of pavement we are noisy and a little sloppy but a little poppy and a little rocky and all that kind of stuff and uh the the guitars are loud and and we also have the one of the guitar players you know didn't write as much as the other but he's like he's the spiral the ronaldo of a die-cast cars and that he's got you know two or three things in the what we have on the band camp page and their gems um you know not not to take away from the other guy but you know when they come up you're like okay we're getting we're getting into a different frequency for a few minutes and then we'll we'll go back to that other one cool well check out diecast cars on band camp everybody it's been great talking to to you today brian from new jersey uh you've you've got some wild theories and um some theories that i can actually cleave on to and uh kennel district again at number 23 so this is a lot of fun man too low a lot of fun so uh take care and uh we'll talk to you soon brian and everybody else wash your goddamn hands thanks.

Track 1:

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Jamie Parkins joins jD as his guest on today's episode of Meeting Malkmus. Jamie reveals song number 24 and tells jD about his Pavement origin story.

Transcript:

Track 2:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 1:

[0:02] Song number 25 is our first entrant from the masterpiece, Watery Domestic. It's Shoot the Singer, One Sick Verse. David from New York, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Shoot the Singer, I think it's probably one of Pavement's most perfect songs. If you just listen to it, it's such a beautifully textured song. And the production is pretty unique, I think.

Track 2:

[0:30] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 3:

[0:38] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a bag full of M&M's with the brown ones removed a la Van Halen. How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan, Jamie from Watford. Jamie, first of all, fucking great name. Second of all, how the fuck are you? I'm very good, thank you for that. it's the uh english variant of the name not the not the scottish variant but i'll take it thank you well that's my name as well so yeah there we go yeah so um let's get right into things like let's not beat around the bush here let's jump right into your pavement origin story yeah wow um, I guess I've been very lucky. So I was trying to tot up how many times I've seen pavement. I think it's 10, maybe 11. Wow.

Track 3:

[1:53] And then, you know, I've seen Preston School of Industry a couple of times, I've seen Steve and the Jicks. But how I fell into pavement, I think, was just serendipitous.

Track 3:

[2:04] So I was 15, I happened to be at a friend's house, and he said.

Track 3:

[2:09] Got a spare ticket for a concert tomorrow. Morrow i'd never really been sort of to a concert i think you know i've been to a couple right at that age when you're 15 you're sort of you know you you're an age where perhaps you don't need your handheld anymore and he said got a ticket for a bank or pavement yeah i'd never heard of them um and i was just starting to get into what we would call in britain kind of indie so pre-brit pop but kind of indie music so bands like carter census things mega city four these might these might mean things to some of your listeners particularly in the uk um i was like yeah great free ticket um it happened to be my birthday the next day um so i borrowed a tape you know good old uh sort of probably what it would have been a 60 minute cassette and listened to slanted for you know over and over again ahead of the gig right because you don't want to turn up at a gig and not not know anything about the music and so that was um august 92 at the marquee in um in london and I didn't know what to expect didn't know what I was walking into certainly didn't know that I was going to become like a you know a big fan of this band wow so what do you remember about the show the actual show so I guess by because of the fact I was 15 and I wasn't drinking um I should I probably remember more than than you know I would from a gig like three years ago um.

Track 3:

[3:37] So this is going to sound, it's going to sound a bit crazy, but, and, and having listened to the other pods, like there's a common theme here, which is just how open the band are. Right. And how welcoming and accommodating they are. And, you know, I don't, I think they always realize their sort of size and everything. Right. Then they're not, they're not filling out stadiums and they don't, you know, they don't need to be standoffish at all. So we went to the gig. I've no memory of, of, um, uh, the support band, but that's primarily because somehow Somehow, me and my friend managed to end up backstage at the Marquee. We were drinking Port Band's Red Stripe Lager.

Track 3:

[4:14] And next thing you know, we're talking to Gary. This is Pete Gary when he's handing out like salad and handing out plates of food. And it's pretty grotty. It's actually from a black bin bag, which is not particularly exciting or alluring. But you're there going okay this is the drummer of the band that we're about to see he's handing out food we'll have a quick chat um i i have a vague memory but i don't know if this is just like history playing tricks but i have a vague memory of either steve or spiral one of the two wearing a football top um a luton town football top which for me is a watford fan that's like one of our big rivals so i don't know again if i'm sort of making this up but i have a memory that that might have been, you know, like, why are you wearing that top? You know, and that started a conversation.

Track 3:

[5:09] And then next thing I know, Gary's handing my friend a bottle of water. So because we were thirsty, it wasn't a bottle of water, obviously, because it was Gary. It was a bottle of vodka. And just all it's just like, this is, this is insane. And the gig hasn't even started yet. And then the concert itself was just fantastic. I mean, you know, 15 years old, um, marquee is quite a famous London venue. You know, I think the stones have played there, you know, it's, um, it's a typically small venue with a low roof and, um, sweat dripping off the ceilings. And it's the sort of perfect place to see a band that's kind of, you know, on that upward curve. Right. Yeah, absolutely. So Jamie, talk to me about, uh, your sort of your go-to record. Do you mention that slanted was the first thing you heard and you listened the shit out of it? Um what was two-part question what was next for you and you got to live it all in real time so that's spectacular uh but what is your go-to record now so there's two separate questions there, yeah i mean stunted was definitely like the the gateway drug as they say um.

Track 3:

[6:17] And I was lucky you're right right I was there you know every Monday when the new album came out buy the next album you know play it to play it to the nth degree two years later the next album watch them on the following tours that support those albums so I was really really fortunate I feel very very lucky um yeah uh watery domestic I mean that was a pretty fast follow wasn't it from yeah um from slanted I think I think like a lot of people have been on your thing today that was like their high point i think just musically i think you know in the case of four songs they just nailed it they nailed it yeah but i would say the album that i come back to the most is definitely uh crooked rain crooked rain i think i don't know if it's about the age like you know i was what i would have been 17 18 then you know you're kind of really impressionable music i think it also it follows on from watery domestic really nicely there's a kind of um There's a continuity of their style. Gary is, you know, there's still bits of Gary drumming on Crooked Rain, I think, if you kind of go deep into the sleeve notes and stuff like that. So I think, for me, that's the album that, you know, like I'm rebuying my LP collection, for example, and that was the first one I got. Oh, wow. Yeah. I got slanted first. Yeah. It's an expensive habit to start again, right? Jesus, is it ever? Wow.

Track 3:

[7:43] So, you've seen a bunch of shows, like 10 or 11 shows. You've got Crooked Rain as your record. Is there anything else you want to share about your Pavement Origins story? What else? I've got a couple of thoughts and things I'm happy to share. I don't think they're a great festival band, is my take. Seems that way. I've not seen them. Is it Benicassin? And what was the one they did on their tour back in the famous one? Yes, right. I saw it in Porto and it was really good. They were really good there. There just i think the two times i've seen them at reading festival um and i've seen them at v festival in the uk and that kind of mid-afternoon slot open air i don't think it suits their aesthetic i don't think it suits the way that their music kind of fills the room um whereas you know i saw their last gig at brixton the the night that they kind of quit with the with the handcuffs and all of that sort of you were there yeah i'm not knowing obviously like you know, there's no social media, right? You, you kind of, you know, did I notice the handcuffs on the microphone? No. Um, um, did they look tired yes um and then you know maybe two weeks later you're reading in the music press that you know that that was their last gig and that they're moving on to different things you know.

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[9:06] So at the time i didn't i didn't add up the add up everything i was seeing but um kind of with hindsight you didn't go oh yeah maybe mount must have kind of checked out a little bit and um so yeah i mean but you know as a fan right it's kind of cool to be at their so-called final gig and then they do it again and again and again right they come back.

Track 3:

[9:29] The um it's a shame i think we're at some of the same gigs in london then because, uh i was i was at two of the gigs last year in london or no it's not last year is it god two years ago now two years ago man yeah i'd hoped to go to manchester but um i had to sell that ticket in the end so i i took myself twice to london so i kind of thought two out of four is not bad i could have done i could have done four but you know there's bills to pay that's That's right. Yeah. Well, I love those London gigs. I thought they were, the Roundhouse is a great venue. It was really awesome. If no one's ever been, you know, it's a really interesting venue, right? And I thought they did it justice and the venue did them justice in a way. Yeah, I think so. It was great. I saw three out of the four. I missed opening night because I was in Liverpool. Right. Well, then we were definitely, that's weird, right? Because we were definitely, if you missed opening night so did i so we're at the same gigs oh that's so what a small world, well should we settle in and listen to track 24 yeah let's do it halfway through right sort of 24 halfway through the 50 or so yeah that's right yeah so let's do that we'll play the song right now and uh we'll be back on the other side hey.

Track 2:

[10:45] This is bob mistandovich from pavement Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown. 24.

Track 3:

[16:18] Well, Jamie, here we are at song 24 on the countdown, a stone-cold classic. This is the eighth song on our list from Pavement's penultimate album, Bright in the Corners. At 24, it's Finn. Jamie, what are your initial thoughts about this song? I think I remember really liking it kind of when you buy Bright in the Corners, you put it on, you go through the album, and it feels like a sensible, good closing song. Um the name kind of gives it away right to the degree and i'll be honest i'm not one for analyzing lyrics and like if you're not one for analyzing lyrics then you've got no chance with pavement lyrics right because mountainous goes all over the shop um but listening to the album recently again i've got two things about the song one is i think the album is really interesting i think lyrically it might be pavements most interesting album i think like mountainous seems to be having a lot of fun like you know i wrote down a few of the you know just on different songs right we know we went dutch dutch on shady lane you know a voice coach taught me to sing he couldn't teach me to love all the above on transported range i just think he seems to be having a lot of fun lyrically um and they kind of flow and um you know there's elements of rhyming in there which you know paper and haven't always done but the more i've listened to this song i've got to be honest and i don't know if this is not going to make me very popular given that people voted for it but i'm kind of ambivalent about this song the more i listen to it yeah oh yeah yeah i I know, sorry. No, don't be. You're in the podcast here now, right? No, no, no.

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[17:47] I'm curious to know why. I was listening to it again today to give it its dues and give it a fair chance. I think my issue with the song, first of all, it's not a bad song, right? I think, you know, I don't have many pavement songs that I would put down as being bad. I think my issue with it is that it's really slow to build up and maybe that's deliberate.

Track 3:

[18:09] But when you've heard the guitar solo, which is great and you love the guitar so at the end and it closes out the album and it's you know take the name right it's the fin it's the end the first half of song you're just like come on let's just get to the good bit um and i kind of feel like and so the first time you hear the song you're probably thinking this is lovely i'm enjoying the experience but once you once you've had the good bit i actually find the the the kind of first half of the song uh quite slow quite quite interminable um i know sorry sorry um i went and listened to uh a live version um from their recent tour thinking you know do they play at a different speed is it you know is it different and the kind of feeling was the same again and don't think it works if you play it mid gig as well because it kind of it drifts the guitar solo kind of fades away and and if you listen to it.

Track 3:

[19:06] It doesn't just finish it kind of goes and goes and goes and you can keep hearing the song all the way to the end. And it just gives the impression that like, I think it, you know, am I reading too much into it, but it feels like Mount must, you know, by this point he'd had enough in pavement and maybe this is coming out. He's talking about things that, you know, walled gardens, he wants to get out. You know, is this his way of saying it through music? Because I think terror twilight is the most mountainous and the jigs type album. Yeah. And so I wonder, you know, and I think, maybe someone on your show had already said it that it was the one where the rest of the band had the least amount of writing credit like so i always think terror twilight is almost like his first album was into the jigs and this is almost like him kind of closing out on pavement um and i'm sure that i'm definitely probably reading way too much into it but that's kind of just my it just feels a little bit like yeah this is the end i get the feeling really like the guitar solo but but why are you taking so long to get to it? Sorry. You heard it here first. Shall I publish your email address in the show? So you can get, I'm thinking I've blown any chance of an invite back for the top 10.

Track 3:

[20:17] But yeah, I think, I think if you're a super fan, right, you're going to like some stuff more than the others. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I've got to, I've got to be fair. I just, I, I didn't vote for it. I'm kind of, like I said, I'm kind of ambivalent towards it. Like, you know, So the Hex, which is maybe a slightly similar sounding song, kind of takes you on the same journey, is infinitely better. And I don't know the rest of this countdown, but I'm guessing that the Hex is probably in the top 10 or so. I would have imagined that a lot of fans would vote for that. I'll never tell. Yeah, I know. I know you want to keep us guessing. That's right. Right so i i guess then it's pretty clear that you think this song is overrated on the list at 24, where would where would you put yes um well does it um probably i mean look to be honest could i count 50 songs you know like do i have the energy to do probably not um but like you know when I think of things and you know this is me showing my you know earlier favouritism maybe but silence kit um.

Track 3:

[21:34] Heaven as a truck uh frontwood you know these are all songs that would you know get way in front of uh of finn um and you know that's the earlier stuff right um uh so yeah i i think it's probably for me it's probably overrated in the in the countdown but um that's the beauty of music right we all have our opinions and you know some people this means something probably very different to what it means to me absolutely you're a big fan of this album right i think this is your favorite album yeah do you definitely you're definitely thinking this guy jamie's a complete jerk i'm not inviting him back no not at all no this is meant to be water cooler fodder you know like this yeah yeah yeah you know jamie's crazy it's absolutely at 24 or you know i'm totally with jamie it's overrated you know like that kind of thing uh it's meant to be it's meant to be fun so i'm glad you had some fun with it do you do you get people commenting is there a way in which Where do we see what people's hot takes on this is?

Track 3:

[22:35] Twitter, Facebook, you know, all the usual suspects. I've got to get back into Facebook. I'll have to see what people say. Yeah. Well, it's been great talking to you, Jamie. Yeah, and likewise. I've really enjoyed the series so far. Thank you for doing it on behalf of all of us weird pavement fans. It's appreciated. Well, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. And getting to meet cool people like you is always fun, too. Yeah, and maybe there'll be another gig, right? We could hope. Maybe they've got some tax bills to pay. I saw Spiral is selling some of his equipment at the moment. So, you know, maybe they've got some bills to pay and they'll do another series of gigs. That'd be good. That would be cool. Maybe we'll see each other there. All right, brother. Talk to you soon. Thanks, JD. I will do. I love it. Thank you. Cheers, man. Wash your goddamn hands.

Track 1:

[23:27] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcomus, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at meetingmalkmus.com.

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This week on the podcast jD welcomes David Fieni to the show to discuss his Pavement origin story and then they crack the top 25 with song number 25 on the countdown!

Transcript:

Track 2:

[0:00] Previously on the pavement top 50.

Track 1:

[0:02] This week we are celebrating song number 26 fight this generation what do you think of this one jeremy from the falls this is probably it bridges like the the best run i think that pavement has on any album.

Track 2:

[0:21] Hey this is westy from the rock and roll band pavement and you're listening to the countdown countdown.

Track 3:

[0:29] Hey, it's JD here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a bong made out of a kumquat. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? Rankings you'll need to tune in to find out so there's that this week i'm joined by a pavement super fan david from new york dude how the fuck are you i'm fucking great i'm psyched to be here chatting with jd oh that's cool another uh pavement super fan yeah yeah absolutely are you uh are you did you make your pre-order for the box set or are you going to i'm going to i'm just like Like, it's crazy because it's like one of those things, I think a little bit like you, I've started, I sort of came to Pavement when, that was like my shift to CDs. And I got all of their stuff on CDs. And then I only started getting the vinyl in the last couple of years. Yeah. And so literally just before this, I ordered my last piece, which was Watery Domestic. What a cool, yeah, Watery Domestic. And then the singles thing looks just freaking amazing.

Track 3:

[1:50] It does yeah i'll order it uh the shipping to canada is obscene though it's like 60 bucks u.s to ship to canada which is like that's not right that's probably 80 bucks uh a canadian you know so it's like it's like half the cost of the product yeesh i don't know so david let's uh not beat around the bush here let's get right into things you mentioned compact discs and your collection. Tell us about your Pavement Origins story and getting those compact discs. Well, J.D., when I was four years old, Billy Corgan murdered my parents.

Track 3:

[2:31] Actually, that's not true. So I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I was right in the – I would have been – if I wasn't such a prick and, like, took myself too seriously, I would have been right in the midst of, like, the beginnings of pavement. Wow. But all the people around me were, like, saying, you know, I was reading stuff, how great pavement was. And I was like, oh, fuck that shit. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon, the indie bandwagon. And so I didn't really get into them until maybe 1996. Okay. Which is, you know, they're still – they're peaking as they usually did. And so I don't remember if it was Bright in the – no, it was Crooked Rain was definitely the thing that kind of just sucked me in for life.

Track 3:

[3:19] And then Bright in the Corners. And I'll tell you a quick story about in 1997, I went to Rolling Stones concert. Pearl Jam opened up the Oakland Coliseum. And I drink a lot. And I got about an hour of sleep. And the next day I had, because of lack of sleep, I asked the girl out in my class that I had a hard crush on to go out for coffee. We talked for like three hours. And then I actually ended up marrying her. I've been married for 24 years with her, to her. But after that coffee, I rode my bike over to my friend Walter's house, and he was playing some records, and he put on Slanted and Enchanted. And I have like the strongest memory of listening to here on his little dinky turntable. So I got into the band like 96 and 97. I saw them at – where was it? The Warfield.

Track 3:

[4:16] Where's that? And that's in San Francisco, yeah. And then I saw them in 99 for Terror of Twilight. And I've seen Jicks and Pavement and stuff since then. And I did see them in Philadelphia this last time around with my friend Seth. So that was freaking amazing. Loved that. So, yeah, I mean, they're kind of like a second wave band for me because I was into stuff like R.E.M. and The Replacements and Husker Du and all of this stuff. And then I got into Pavement and it's kind of like a, you know, it's something that stuck with me. And it's definitely a pretty hardcore relationship. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. So talk to me about your first real-time record then was Bright in the Corners, right? If you got in in 96, Bright in the Corners comes out in 97. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I think, yeah, it must have been Bright in the Corners.

Track 3:

[5:20] And that's still... I mean, the thing is about the records is like I think that each of them has been a favorite at a different time, including including Terror Twilight, which when it came out, I just I love that record. It's obviously it's like a shift in a different direction in some ways, but it's it's so fucking brilliant. And I just can't, you know, I love all of the all of the records. I'll tell you, I'll come back to that later, but there was an interesting hole in my collection until fairly recently that I'll tell you about. All right. Yeah. So you saw them in Philadelphia on the reunion tour. What did you think this time out? Dude, it was like bliss for me. I was just, I was like smiling the whole time, which is probably exactly the opposite of what I did the first times I saw them when I was, you know.

Track 3:

[6:20] I thought I was fucking cool or something. But this time I was just grinning the whole time. And, you know, I know you've seen a bunch of the shows. People are singing along, which is like not a super pavement-y thing, but it totally was great. And also a cool thing was that my friend Seth, he has his son and some friends of his. They're all into pavement, and they're like this new generation coming up. And so they were there. And that's obviously so cool because it makes me think of like, oh, when I was growing up and I was into like the bands from the 60s or something, you know? Yeah. Like it's like a cycle, you know, that goes on. What do you think pulled him in? Was it osmosis from his old man or was it Harness Your Hopes or what's the deal? Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I think it's people who want music that doesn't suck, that's not corporate music, that is just fucking cool and original. And it just, you know, there's a thing that Malcolm has said in this, I think recently, someone asked him, like, why are you going to make another record? And he's all, no.

Track 3:

[7:33] He said, the songs exist in the present, which I love that. I mean, it's such an obvious, simple statement, but it's also true, right? The songs exist in the present. And so each time you sing it, that song is going back out. Each time you play a record, it's existing right in that very moment. So it's like, I just think there's the music just, the music stands out. Maybe, you know, maybe the whole Harness Your Hopes thing kind of brought in a few people. But, you know, it's just, it's a good, it definitely made me slightly hopeful for the future.

Track 3:

[8:10] Harness Your Hopes definitely harnessed my girls, my two girls. Oh, yeah. They're both big TikTokers, and I guess that's where they saw it. But my daughter will brag to me that she's got Pavement in her playlist. I think she's got one other song, but I don't know the song. Yeah. I'm guessing it's something like Major Leagues or something. That one, I guess. Yeah, my 12-year-old daughter loves Harness Your Hopes, but she listens to Pavement. I put stuff on. I make playlists for her, and so she gets into that stuff. You raised her well. I know, at least in that respect. Yeah. So what is your go-to record at this point? I know you said that they're all, you know, they've all taken a turn as your favorite, but if you're feeling nostalgic and you want to hear something, which one do you go to?

Track 3:

[9:02] Um, I don't know. You know, I think maybe Crooked Rain is going to be the one. Crooked, both Crooked Rain and Bright in the Corners. Fellow Bright in the Corners lover. Is this right? Yeah. There's not that many of us.

Track 3:

[9:18] It's a great record. it is a great record but you're right crooked rain is what is it it's it's almost like it feels timeless like it doesn't feel of the 90s yeah to me uh production wise the low the low fineness of it um it just doesn't have that same 90s production you know that we're that we were so inundated with uh from seattle you know yeah that's right i mean the whole issue of production is is like such an interesting thing to going from like gary yeah as the producer yeah and um and then through the different iterations of different folks and obviously terror twilight has its own story but yeah i mean i think that's part of it like and you and you go back to those early like demos and stuff and it's just they are just fucking around with sound a lot of the time right and um yeah i was listening to i was listening to the because they're streaming the the singles collections you know they are yeah yeah i was listening to that today and so i was just like a song like a song i don't like just put on is it the k dart song or internal k dart internal k dart yeah which is like It's like.

Track 3:

[10:38] It's not like a fully formed human, you know, being, it's like a sonogram, but it's still beautiful, because you can hear spiral and SM, like kind of experimenting with sounds and how they're going to play off each other and just textures and stuff. And so, you know, that stuff is, is, is really important, obviously.

Track 3:

[11:03] I love your analogy. It's a sonogram. That's brilliant. It will be fully formed at some point, slanted and enchanted. But early on, on Demolition Plot, it wasn't necessarily. You're right. It was more foggy, primordial ooze, I call it. I like your sonogram-ness. That's very cool. So is there a single in the box set, one of the seven inches that you're looking most forward to?

Track 3:

[11:34] I don't know. I have to look at it again. But I think it'll be, you know, the singles have a number of songs on each side, as far as I understand. So I'm looking forward to kind of just having a different, because it gives you like a different entry point into the catalog, right? Yeah. Because you're listening to these singles, and then some of the B-sides, and then some of these other tunes. And so, yeah, it was interesting listening to the Summer Babe. It sounds like the vocal is mixed differently from what I'm used to. I mean, the whole thing. I guess they're all remastered, aren't they? Well, I think they are. But on the Summer Babe 7-inch, that's the one with Baptist Black and Mercy Snack, I think. I think so. It's not the winter version. That's the designation. On Slanted, it's the winter version. This is the original, you know, the original. As far as I understand. Right, that makes sense, because it was the single that came out right before. Yeah. Yeah. So it might have had a little bit more work on it on the winter version. So good ear. Good ear on you. Do you want to get into this and flip the record and talk about the song number 25? Let's do it. All right. right let's do this we'll be back right after this hey.

Track 2:

[13:04] This is bob nastanovich from payment thanks for listening and now on with a countdown 25.

Track 3:

[16:28] Song number 25 is our first entrant from the masterpiece, Watery Domestic. It's Shoot the Singer, One Sick Verse. David from New York, what are your initial thoughts about this song?

Track 3:

[16:43] Shoot the Singer, I think it's probably one of Pavement's most perfect songs. If you just listen to it, the textures, it's such a beautifully textured song. And the production is pretty unique, I think, for them. It has this really, I think it must be, this is the Water Domestic is where Ibold and Bob join the Spiral One SM and Gary. And I don't know exactly who's playing on what and all that, but I'd like to think it's Mark. And that bass, it kind of has this kind of cool buzzing sound. It reminded me of Us from Piglib, but then I listened to it, and it doesn't really play out. But it's just a cool kind of – the bass is kind of – has a beautiful sound. It also has – and I don't think I even noticed this until listening to the song a bunch in prep for this. It has a really – what sounds very much like a really perfectly kind of mixed acoustic guitar in the back, but really kind of mixed in just so and you know and that's just like one of the things so like and they have the the verses that have this beautiful kind of more kind of relaxed mellow.

Track 3:

[18:08] Tone and you hear again like really nice interplay with spiral and and malchmus and then you get to i don't know if they're really choruses but it's like slow it down song is sacred and you know Those two – and then the distorted guitar comes in, and it's really such a cool contrast with the –, and then it goes back to the sort of more little chill verses. And then it has that outro, which is freaking – it's so good. It's just – it's a cool thing because it –.

Track 3:

[18:45] So, again, one of the lines that stands out in the song is, slow it down, song is sacred. And you hear Malkmus sing, and his vocalization is super, it's really beautiful on this song. I think it's one of his best, really, performances in some way. And it's really kind of, there's like an urgency to it that is not always there, but that's not what you want for every song. And in the end, it kind of is like, it doesn't technically slow down, but it kind of is like he's slowing it down and trying to get more out of the song. And he wants to stay in the music and there's the la da da da da da da and um which made me think about so this is shoot the singer it's a song that has references to music in its title and, maybe a little bit in the song and then it made me think of other songs like cut your hair has that kind of you know the non non words but vocalization right right so a lot of the and And that's another song that's about music. So it's like I feel like there's a few others that I can't remember now that have. So Pavement songs that sort of have like music themes or songs about songs or whatever, they seem to often go into that, you know, la, la, la kind of shit, which is really cool. It's kind of like pure music without, you know, without words or something.

Track 3:

[20:02] I don't know. This song, I just, it's such a beautiful song. And obviously Water Domestic is, you know, such a, like, masterpiece. And I, dude, I owe you, like, a massive, I owe you massively because I, super fan that I am, you know, I've seen them a bunch. And I had everything. And I was into, I had gotten, like, Westing and all of that stuff and listened to that stuff before I discovered in the last, like, five years. Don't fucking mock me, dude. Watery Domestic. And it was because listening to Meeting Malkmus. So somehow I had seen that fucking rooster, right? I had seen that rooster, but I had never, I had never like listened. I mean, I think I must have heard a song or two, but I was like completely oblivious. And so that's like such a joy to just discover what's. What a cool thing to find that. Yeah. It's and it's, you know, in large part to your, you know, your podcast. So thank you. Well, I'll take the feedback. I love it. But I think that it's important, because I came to Pavement late as well, as well as your situation with this record.

Track 3:

[21:23] To me, it's an absolute bonus to, in the midst of loving a band.

Track 3:

[21:35] Uncovering something that you didn't know about, and you're listening to new music that is old, if that makes any sense. Yeah, right. And it's right in that sweet spot, right in the pocket of slanted and crooked rain, right? So, what a fertile period. Yeah, it's peak.

Track 3:

[21:52] It's total peak pavement. And it's interesting, too, because it's like Gary's last stand, and you listen to it. And I think in some ways, all the love in the world to Westy, right, who just is great. I love him. But like in a certain sense, like Gary, at least at this period, his playing was more like pavement-y. You know what I mean? Sure. It's a little bit more rickety, slapdash, and kind of I hate to say slacker or whatever, but it kind of like it really fits in. Of course, they kind of, Westy kind of you know it's a it's a slightly different direction but i mean i love i love you know i love them both but you know this so this so that ep so it's the cool thing is like i have no nostalgia about the record i just listen to it it's right now it's happening and i you know get into it but um i feel like it's a song that has two standouts and that's front words and Shoot the Singer. Yeah. But they're set up perfectly with Texas and Lyons, Linden, right? Because it's just such a perfect little sequence. You can't get a more perfect EP out there.

Track 3:

[23:12] And, yeah. So the other thing that I wouldn't mind mentioning is, so I grew up 50 miles away from Stockton. Gee whiz. And so, like, it's hot and boring. And, like, those songs, like, Lions Linden especially, but also, like, Summer Babe and a few others, they totally evoke that landscape of, like, bored people.

Track 3:

[23:40] Kind of just like, you know, like suburbia. It's kind of like a little bit almost beyond suburbia in some ways. It's kind of this, you know, every street a straight line, all of that stuff. And then there's the Delta and the girl mixing a cocktail with a cigar, all that shit, you know? So it's like very evocative of that whole landscape. Escape yeah i mean i i can't say enough about this ep uh like you mentioned their standouts but i would have it's sophie's choice yeah to pick yeah to pick the number one and i would include lions linden and texas never whispers in in that yeah for sure um it's just so goddamn good And even when you listen to Lux and Redux and you get Greenlander and I forget the other two right now because I'm an asshole, but even those outtakes from Watery are spectacular. Yeah. Oh, I know. Greenlander is another one of those sleeper ones that's such a freaking cool song. Yeah. Definitely. Where do you think in the scheme of things this song was rated 25 so right at the halfway point.

Track 3:

[25:04] Do you think it's overrated, underrated, perfectly rated? What do you think? I think – I'm glad it's not any lower. Me too. Because I would put this in the top 10, 15 for me for sure. Of course, it changes all the time, like whatever. But I think 25, it's fine. I'm not going to go on a rampage. I'm not going to go on a rampage, J.D., against your fans. Did you vote? I didn't vote. You know, I saw the call, and then I meant to, and then I didn't. So many people have reached out and said, oh, man, I missed this. Yeah. There was enough to make this 100% valid, let me tell you. Yeah, yeah.

Track 3:

[25:55] Dude, that's what I got. How about you? Is there anything you want to plug or mention? Listen to the Bug Club, man. They're amazing. They opened up for a pavement in the UK a few dates, and I got into them from that, and they've just become one of my favorite bands. The Bug Club from Wales. I don't know, that and Permanent Ceasefire. That's about it. Okay. Well, that's cool. I like giving the tips. That's nice. That's what we've got here. Song 25. Stay tuned next week when we cover song 24. In the meantime, thank you so much, David from New York, and be sure to wash your goddamn hands.

Track 1:

[26:39] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmists, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at Meeting Malcolmists dot com. You.

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We're taking a brief break from counting down the Top 50 Pavement songs this week. Instead, we offer you PodList IV.V thanks for all of submissions and a special hat tip to Tim from Portland for coming up with the track listing,

Track Listing:

Shady Lane - Lonely Penguin

Painted Soldiers - Malkralph

Passat Dream - CARP Recordings

Zurich is Stained - Sam Lambson

Perfect Depth - Scouting for Cuppas

Shoot the Singer - Copeto

Haunt you Down

Heaven is a Truck - Dark Shandy

Shady Lane - Strong Computer

Summer Babe - Forearms

Type Slowly - Marchica

My Radio - Negative Players

Box Elder - Christopher Catin

Fin - S.W.

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This week on the pod. jD welcomes his buddy, Jeremy from Niagara Falls on to discuss his Pavement origin story and reveal song 26!

Transcript:

Track 2:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 1:

[0:02] Stephen, what are your initial thoughts about this song, The Hex? The Hex, well, it's a really cool song. I think it's completely different to anything else that Pavement does. I think it's very unique. It's got a style which isn't really there in any... I can't think of any other song that looks like it.

Track 2:

[0:19] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 4:

[0:25] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown. For seminal indie rock band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a girl named Shannon that might have played bass in an indie rock band. Sigh. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by Pavement superfan, Jeremy from Niagara Falls. How's it going, motherfucker?

Track 3:

[0:54] It's hot. It's hot.

Track 4:

[0:56] It's really hot.

Track 3:

[0:58] It's been hot all week. Yeah. So sorry if there's fan noises in the background. They're here to cheer me on.

Track 4:

[1:04] Yes, of course they are. And that's very good that they are doing that for you because it will give you adrenaline and strength that you need and require to get through this next question. Jeremy, from the Falls, what is your pavement origin story?

Track 3:

[1:20] Story um my origin story for the band pavement is a little um stranger than most i i did not come to them by way of their music i i came to them by way of uh discussions about just how cool their uh their albums the the song names were, so i before i ever heard a pavement track which was years uh uh it was it was uh i had a friend who was in a band named uh cindy and they before they were called cindy they they were racking their brains about what they wanted to call themselves and we just got in this deep discussion one night i have heard we started talking about i don't think i've heard of king cobb steely, There's probably a good, I bet a good amount of this audience would really dig King Cub Steely because it's kind of in the same vein. But they had awesome song names.

Track 3:

[2:21] Luckily, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an emergency. That's a song name, Time Equals Money and Money Equals Pizza and Therefore Time Equals Pizza. Just stuff like that. And we got talking about it. And I was like, yeah, that's really cool. and we're talking about the band Head. Lowercase and an uppercase. Head with a lowercase h. That's right. And an uppercase, yeah, just because it was the 90s. And then my friend turned to me, he's like, I just wish that I could have an album title as good as Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. And he just, he went on for like half an hour on that. I was like, that is a really cool album title and who is this band? And he's like, Pavement, check them out. And of course, being the 90s, I mean, being dirt poor, I couldn't. That's right. That's the only way you could do it. I couldn't purchase an album. Because they weren't being played on the radio.

Track 3:

[3:15] Well. That's right. And it was pre-internet. And yeah, they weren't being played on the radio. But, and this is, I like hearing the stories of people out here saying like, yeah, my first experience was like I got onto a torrent site and I ripped all their albums over the course of like a week or however long it used to take. But before that we used to have this thing and it doesn't exist anymore rarely does that's right of uh compilations you remember yeah and there was a big one in the 90s it was really big because of the secret hidden track that i think everyone only bought it for the secret hidden track it was called no alternative and nirvana did uh of uh at the very end wasn't listed everyone who was there It wasn't listed, but they did – it's sappy, but it's also called Verse Course Verse. It was an unreleased track, and it kicked. It was so good. But also on that album was Matthew Sweet, Goo Goo Dolls, and Pavement did Unseen Power and Picket Fence. And who was the second one you named? Goo Goo Dolls. Yeah. Goo Goo Dolls? You know, like rather funky band until, you know, Twister. No, it's not Twister. Until that Twister song.

Track 3:

[4:41] They did a song on the Twister set. No, it was the Asteroid one. No, it wasn't the Asteroid one. Fuck. Oh, yeah. Dude. It's called Angel or something like that. No, they did a song on the Twister set. It's like Alanis Morissette did a song. On the record, you came uninvited. Yeah, anyway, this is riveting conversation for somebody who tuned in for Pavement. I know.

Track 3:

[5:13] Beastie boys was also on the alternate and breeders did a really good live live track but but really it was like you could get uh like that was if you did not have a lot of money and you wanted to hear and this is backwards thinking because nowadays you'd be like why would you buy a whole album for one song well everybody did everybody bought it for that nirvana song and uh and then you got a little a little sampler of all these other bands that you could get into And that was my first. Hold on, let's talk about this for a second. So what did you think of On Scene Power? Yeah. It was good. And in comparison to everything else on the album, it's like, oh, this is top ten. This is really fresh and inviting. And I dig the sound. It was kind of rare. It wasn't overproduced. and it didn't have that, you know, that pastina. Am I using that word correctly? You know, patina. Sorry, patina. It's fucking boiling. It's hot. Did I mention it's hot? It's like 55 degrees in Canadian. 55? Celsius. But yeah, I think it's like 40. I was like 55. Your skin would be melting.

Track 3:

[6:35] Anything after 35, I'm like, it's all the same. I like the heat, but it's not like this muddiness. Yeah. I can't handle it. Really? Yeah, it's the thing. It's not the heat, it's the humidity. No, oven's dry heat. Anyway. Yeah. Again. But yeah, no, I really, I like the sound. And I was also big into Sonic Youth, but I had a bit of a bone to pick with Sonic Youth because their stuff never really seemed to get me to the place where I was like, yeah. Yeah and it felt like pavement was like they got it it was it was kind of this it's like a visceral, sort of song yeah but it's it's it rocks i totally know what you mean you know i mean yeah i've been i've been uh nose deep in in pavement's catalog for almost five years now so, like i mean obviously i enjoyed it prior to that but you know just looking at it week after week week after week you know it's it's been asked me to name a fucking song um title though and i'm usually stumped or or where it falls on a record and there's people that will be able to do oh yes it's right after this and before this and it's like i just can't do that i'm just because that's part of the culture though that's part of like the like we when we lost physical media, like it's like remembering your best friend's phone number do you even know it now i don't Oh, I know my wife's. I don't know my wife's. I don't know my kids.

Track 3:

[8:03] Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so that, like that compilation. And then you'd think I would have rushed out and I would have bought, you know, a pavement album, but I didn't because a scant few years later, the Brain Candy soundtrack came out and being the massive kids of all fan I was. Okay. All right. Is R. I was and I still am. Yeah. And will continue to be. And you know who was on that soundtrack oh matthew sweet fuck me really, he followed yeah he follows you around doesn't he yeah but pavement like painted soldiers is, like it's in my top five songs it's in my top 15 for sure no my top 10 and it's the best spiral There is. Other than the unreleased Preston School of Industry. For sale, the Preston School of Industry. But yeah.

Track 3:

[9:09] And another breakout track on a soundtrack album that has like... They are? Yeah. They play Butts Wiglin'. Yeah. They might be Giants, I think, did a track. Uh, stereo lab and like a real, Oh, and of course the odds were on there, but yeah, it's kind of five. I think there was even a GBV guy by voices song on there. I think that might, it was by first exposure to guided by voices. I got into a lot of music through compilations, something that does not exist. And I wonder how we can rectify this. Yeah.

Track 3:

[9:57] Well, we have to change the industry one person at a time. Starting at this moment in time. And this is the... It's 66 degrees. Good things are forged in heat. This is... Hey, listen. This is the closest I've ever recorded an episode to drop date. Like, most everything else is done. Oh, yeah? I did it in the spring. You know? So, this is... What is the date? It's June 20th. And this goes out on the 28th. Yeah. Or whatever next Monday is. Wow. Look at me. Look at me knowing fucking calendars. 24th. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Sure is. Yeah. It's sooner than you think. That's right. No. Into that editing bay. This one doesn't get edited. This podcast doesn't. But yeah. Oh no. All my secrets. Okay. Back to the matter at hand here. There's a lot of... So if you haven't noticed, Jeremy and I are buddies and we're doing some catch up at the same time that we're um that we're doing this so that's why we're getting a little distracted i apologize for that and i hope this is acceptable for your pavement listening uh enjoyment yeah it's a forgiving crowd have you ever listened to the episode of meeting malchus called uh hate mail.

Track 3:

[11:17] Oh you should look that i haven't heard that one i got a hate mail letter oh yeah i just decided to do an episode on it because it is like a screed it is like it is like martin luther knocked you know nailed something to my door you know and it was like it was like oh deep cut wow yeah now it was type was it written or was it typed oh then you know it's serious yeah listen to that one oh wow if you're just getting into to this because of the top 10. There's a whole other podcast out there where I go through each of the songs. It's called Meeting Malchmus. That's the feed that you're on right now. And there's lots of good... I can only hope that this generates at least one more hit. It might. So from there, you finally buy a record? Or do you get into the torrents?

Track 3:

[12:11] I bought, oh, and this is shameful, and now I wish you do edit it. I bought Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain through another form of dead media, the Columbia House Records Club. Dude, Columbia House was money. It was so good. It was so good. It was. 12 CDs for a penny? You're paying 30 bucks afterwards, but hey. And it was one of those auto ship deals. That's where they got you. That's where they got you on the lazy. It just shows up, right? Because it was $30 a hit, and you would be like, fuck. But if you played your cards right, you won. The house did not always win, but they must have won enough.

Track 3:

[12:51] Yeah. I mean, and you could send them back and say, you know what? Liz Fair just isn't my cup of tea. I'm going to exile Guyville. Yeah, this one, I think it was her follow-up. I was like, eh. Never sent me Matthew Sweet. So Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. Do you know where the title comes from? It comes from, apparently, it comes from Purple Rain, Purple Rain. And Stephen just liked the rhythm of that. Or it may have even been David Berman who suggested it. And, yeah.

Track 3:

[13:26] If I'm wrong, shoot me an email. JD at meetingmalchmas.com. Would love to hear from you. So you put that one on the old CD player, I'm guessing. Not a turntable. about this point and yeah it starts with silent and that song just melts your brain like right off the bat it is i i that album for me is like a textbook like this is how you start an album like this series of songs like this is how you do it this is how you you break it in so you lay the frown the foundation for the listening experience you're about to undertake and man i yeah i listened to that album a lot. It's a masterpiece for sure. I will fully admit, I thought he was saying Silent Kit for the longest time. I thought it was about drummers. Well, nobody really knows. It's got multiple titles. People will say Silence Kid, and people will say Silent Kid. People will say Silent Kit, and people will say Silence Kit. So I think on the liner notes, it's Silence Kid. So, yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Did you ever get a chance to see them live?

Track 3:

[14:45] So, jury's out on that. It was the 90s. I was young. I got around a lot. And a friend of mine was like, no, I don't think we do. We did see them. And I was like, I distinctly remember being at, like, the Cool House. Did you go to Lollapalooza in 95? At one point.

Track 3:

[15:08] Okay. No, I've never been to a Lollapalooza. I was just going to say, because they played that, and that might be something that you saw and forgot. Because I can't imagine, you are going to generate some hate mail. That you saw them live and you don't fucking know that you saw them live? What kind of fucking planet is this? This is so different than the other interviews I've done for this program. I know. I know. But you know what? If I did, I enjoyed it. Well, there's that. that and if i didn't then you know so there's that i i guess i never will do we want i mean somebody had to somebody had to remind me that i've seen wean like several times and somebody was like you know i was like oh i wish i could i wish i could see wean and they're like you've seen like eight times like oh that's oh yeah that's a really shitty superpower to have dude, i know i know i have a very bad short-term memory but my long-term memory is near You're fucking impeccable still. Well, see, my short-term memory was bad at the time. You didn't, yeah. See, I don't create new memories. Yeah. I have a very difficult time creating new memories. Yeah. I still have them, but yeah. Oh. Yeah. It's ever since I got zapped. Okay. What do you say we flip the record over and start talking about song number 26? You up for that? Yeah. Let's do it. We'll be right back after this.

Track 2:

[16:34] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown. 26!

Track 3:

[21:05] This week, we are celebrating song number 26, Fight This Generation. What do you think of this one, Jeremy from the Falls? This is probably, it bridges the best run, I think, that Pavement has on any album, starting with AT&T, going right through to the end of Wowie Zowie. I started AT&T, I just listen to these tracks over and over again. And Fight This Generation is definitely a staple in that run. Yeah, I think so. And it's a staple of their live show as well at this point. Even when I saw Malcolm on the Traditional Techniques tour, he played a guitar and computer version of it. And it was really quite fucking cool. Oh, really? Oh, I would have loved to have seen that. There's got to be a video of that. I'm sure there is on the old YouTubes. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Like, I love the demo version in that enhanced Wowie Zowie release. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Nice and Critter's Edition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Track 3:

[22:24] But yeah, no, this track does that thing that I like so much in every song I hear it in, where you start listening to it and then halfway through it turns into a different track also. Absolutely. Two different songs mashed together for sure. Yeah. So in listening to this again for this I couldn't believe this track is only like four, it's under four and a half minutes. This feels to me like an epic six, seven minute long track but it's not. It's a tight 4.23. Yeah. Tight 423. That's funny.

Track 3:

[23:04] I mean, long for a pavement track, but it feels like, it feels a lot longer. Doesn't it? Doesn't it? Maybe I'm just thinking of the demo version. It does because, okay, so not in a bad way for me. No, no. No. But because it feels like two different songs, I think that might give you the illusion that it's long. Yeah. You know? Plus the repetitive outro, like just that jam at the end. That always feels too short. And yet it feels like a day. It feels like a good day. Punching in, punching out. You're friends with the coyote. You're not friends with the coyote. Or the sheep rather no i, you know so there's been like three matthew sweet references and now like two looney tunes all right well um what else do you have to say about fight this generation, This, um, like all, all lyrics are interpretive. Yes. Like, and, and I, and I hesitate because I've listened to everybody else talk and they're so. Erudite.

Track 3:

[24:27] That's a great word. And I think that's what I'm trying to say. But they, they, they're very, they, they've got very strong opinions and they're very, they're very knowledgeable and they've obviously put a lot of pen to paper and sorted this out and, you know after 18 cups of coffee and and i i'm still i grapple with this one because it's like seeing shapes and clouds and you know you know that old um oh man it's a charlie brown comic from years ago uh and and they're like all sitting on the grass and they're looking at the clouds and the one one i think linus is saying like oh look that's like that cloud looks like washington crossing the delaware and and that one looks like uh rodan's the thinker and and that cloud looks like the the the stoning of saint peter and and they're like what do you see charlie brown he's like i see a ducky and a horsey but you know so i think you can i think you can do that with this track i mean just the the title alone evokes like uh an emotion yes and and the The way that it's, like, the way the song is constructed, how it starts off in 3-3, moves to 4-4 time in there, you get the sense of, like, there's two sides clashing. I'm still trying to figure out, like, for you.

Track 3:

[25:55] Wait a minute. 3-3. There's no 3-3. 3-4.

Track 3:

[25:59] At the beginning? Yeah. There's no 3-3. Oh, yeah.

Track 3:

[26:09] I'm not a music student, but it sounds pretty waltzy to me. Anyways, what is this song about to you? What viewpoint do you see this from? Because I think there's a couple different ones. Is this punching up or punching down? Oh, I don't think it's punching at all. I think this is a jumping up and down song.

Track 3:

[26:36] Um it's just anthemic and it's just you can get behind the the idea of fight this generation but i don't think any of the other stanzas um support any information about which generation it is who's doing the fighting you know that sort of thing and to me that's what makes it an anthem because you know the kids listening to it right now can feel like they're fighting the gen xers whereas like we were fighting boomers you know um but is it ever like the gen xers fighting the millennials well i suppose a few years ago it may have been because that's that's where i kind of landed on it's like it's the song itself feels cyclical in the way that it's it's like you could probably put it on repeat and it's just this constant like the the themes in it are are such such that it is like there's always going to be this realization, like the fight is part of the progress. It's part of the identity. So therefore it has to exist, but you're in it on one side and then you're on the other side of it. So you're constantly at odds with the generation before you and the generation after you. Absolutely. Yeah. It's very funny that that's the way it's turned out, you know, or keeps turning out.

Track 3:

[28:04] It's like Battlestar Galactica.

Track 3:

[28:08] New or old the new one all right the good one the really good one i liked the old one as a kid but it doesn't hold up well the old one had a robot dog and yeah and action figures yes i had a star buck with one arm did it come that way no no i pulled it off i wanted to make him a star wars was villains so that's what i did so listen it's been great talking to you today about your pavement origin story uh fight this generation and uh you know just a basket of other things uh hope uh you enjoyed yourself i know i did and uh that's what we've got for you this week next week we'll we're getting into the top 25 man so we we start to kick out the top 25 next week we're halfway way fucking home. Can't wait to hear it. I'll talk to you then. Wash your goddamn hands.

Track 2:

[29:05] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmists, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at MeetingMalcolmists.com.

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jD hangs with Stephen on today's episode of the Top 50 Countdown. First, as usual, he shares his Pavement origin story and then reveals song 27!

Transcript

Track 1:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. You can exhale now because track 28 is Stop Breathing. Amir, what are your initial thoughts about this song? I love this song. It appears in my Top 20 that I sent you. I think it's number 14 there. So it's half of your number. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and.

Track 3:

[0:22] Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown. Hey it's jd here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown featuring seminal indie rock band pavement week over week we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots i then tabulated the results using an abacus and some fucker named gene how will your favorite song fare in the ratings well you'll have to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by Pavement superfan, Stephen. Stephen, how the fuck are you? I'm very good, JD. How are you? I'm doing quite stellar, in fact. It's a good day to be breathing and upright, you know? It is. It is. Spring's in the air. You know, winter's gone. Things are looking up. Funny enough, it's snowing here today. First, you know, we've passed spring. We didn't get any snow at all. And then, you know, it turns into spring and all of a sudden we've got snow. So, you know, who can fucking tell?

Track 3:

[1:30] No, no, but yeah, thanks for having me on. It's like we said before, just before we started, I've been listening to the whole countdown so far. And, you know, it's been great. It's a nice little pick me up on the Monday morning when it drops. And it's a good feeling to think that, you know, there's going to be one a week for the whole year pretty much. So, yeah, I've been really enjoying it. Well, thank you so much. That means a lot. So let's get, you know, let's make this about you now and let's get right into your Pavement Origins story. Yeah, okay, yeah. So, I mean, I'm 42 now and I got into Pavement when I was about... Sort of 15 16 so it was basically when uh terror twilight came out.

Track 3:

[2:19] When i was a teenager i was really into radiohead at the time i mean i still am but uh, they were they were my band at the moment so i was obsessively into everything that they did and i would read all the interviews and you know get every release and bootleg and ep and thing that came out uh from that band and i remember i was on holiday once and uh i picked up a music magazine in the airport on the way over and there was a a big article in there about pavement and the terror twilight release um and i'd kind of heard of them a little bit uh i kind of knew off them but it was always but they were always sort of mentioned in the same breath as um, the fall and john peel and things like that and so yeah in my mind i kind of built them up as a kind of scary alternative loud punky i don't know abrasive sort of band that was sort of unlistenable, um and i kind of remember at the time also around that time in the 90s um blur brought out their uh.

Track 3:

[3:27] Self-titled album the one that has song two on right graham graham coxson was going around on the interview circuit and saying oh yeah this this this album's influenced by you know really really hard understandable american bands like like pavement and i was like oh okay yeah so this in my head i kind of built them up as um something a bit difficult and then i read this saw this article in um this music magazine it must be key magazine or enemy or something and they just came across like a really nice bunch of guys and i thought right when i get back from holiday i'm going to buy that record it sounds really good also so yeah the other thing was that the main draw at that time was uh the radio head rich sort of connection godrich yeah so he he nigel godrich produced it they had johnny greenwood playing harmonica for some reason on uh platform blues and on billy and so i bought the album purely on that uh that sort of thought really i'd never heard any of their songs didn't know anything about them and i remember getting home putting putting the CD on, and the first song is Spit on the Stranger. So that was the first Pavement song I'd ever heard. Wow. And it's got such a lovely, warm introduction, and those sort of synth pops, and the vocal, and the melody. I thought, wow, this is great. This isn't what I was expecting at all. I was expecting something really hard, and almost the kind of stuff that you hear on Westing.

Track 3:

[4:51] Yes, yes. And so, no, I loved it. I got really into that album. them i loved uh every track on it really um uh especially carrot rope loved carrot rope but i don't i don't quite i don't quite get the kind of uh the sort of online hate that that song gets i think that's a great song um but yeah from terror twilight i then kind of worked backwards and picked up all the cds in kind of reverse order i got i think bright in the corners next, text uh and i kind of worked backwards uh crooked rain wowie zowie was hard to find i think in those days i couldn't find it so it took me it took me about a year or so to track that that cd down.

Track 3:

[5:33] Um so yeah i wonder why that is i don't know i think it it was in the 90s it was kind of like, you know there wasn't the internet wasn't so prominent you couldn't you almost didn't know what a band's back catalogue was. You had to kind of track it down and search it out in record stores and read about them in magazines and, uh yeah so for whatever reason that that record was hard to hard to track down but uh yeah so it's by the time i went to university i think i had all the albums, uh but then unfortunately they broke up yeah so i kind of missed the boat on the on the sort of original incarnation uh uh but then the the sm debut came out which is absolutely, that is my absolute favorite album by anybody of all time. It's really fucking good. Yeah, it's so good. I mean, I still listen to that album now. Like it's, what was it, 24 years old, is it? 23 years old or something, as we speak. Yeah, pretty close. I think I listened to it last week. I still get something from that album. Me too. I do. I listened to it for like three days in a row, Les, two weeks ago. Listened to it for like three days in a row, just straight. It's still got it, hasn't it? Every song on there is fantastic.

Track 3:

[7:00] The sort of guitar work, the melody. And I think sometimes with... It's quite a poppy, immediate album. And sometimes those sorts of albums don't really have the longevity. But for whatever reason, this one does. It's really got a lot going on. Um so so yeah so then so from that i i kind of so from 2001 onwards i kind of picked up all the, mountainous solar stuff as it came out uh uh but none of them really grabbed me like the debut did um up until um traditional techniques so yeah that that that's another one that's really got under my skin that album it's a great one um i think it came out i think it came out just at the beginning of lockdown yeah it was 2018 yeah and it might it might be something to do with that you know sort of being trapped in the house with this with this new record and i listened to it every day for for a long time over over lockdown uh but yeah that that's that's a really good one as well yeah um and it was around that sort of time that um.

Track 3:

[8:14] That i uh found your podcast and uh yeah oh wow it was it was kind of the traditional techniques album that made me kind of think oh i need to get a bit more into to revisiting some of the other mountainous stuff that i've not really got into the first time around and i found your podcast and the uh uh the mountainous conundrum podcast yes yes the guys did yeah that was great so uh yeah kind of that that period that lockdown period for me is kind of synonymous with listening to a lot of pavement podcasts, listening to traditional techniques, and sort of going back and re-exploring some of the other Mount Masolo stuff.

Track 3:

[8:55] But yeah, so yeah, I didn't catch them live. Well, I saw Mount Masolo a few times when he was touring the first album at festivals and little venues, and that was really cool. Here's one for you. I saw Radiohead, and opening for Radiohead was SM and the Jicks. Oh, really? What year was that? Yeah, that was Hail to the Thief, when they were touring for Hail to the Thief. Yeah, 2004, something like that. Oh, that'd be cool. That's about right, yeah. So they were doing, were they doing Real Emotional Trash or something at that time? What were the Jicks doing?

Track 3:

[9:40] Whatever came after Pig Lib. uh pig lip okay cool yeah no the one after pig lip uh shit i can't i can't think of what it was face the truth i've got it up here somewhere uh face the truth, Or Real Emotional Trash, one of those two. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So did you get a chance to see Pavement live ever? I did. Well, when they regrouped in 2010, I seem to remember. Yeah. And they did a series of shows down in London. But it was the week I was getting married.

Track 3:

[10:19] Tough to escape that. So I didn't go, but I thought about it. It was almost like you know travel down to london come back get married the next day and i thought no it's not that's not gonna work so i'll uh i'll skip that but then i thought yeah wise uh but then i caught them on the um on the most recent tour and that that tour was fantastic that really.

Track 3:

[10:40] You know i was completely obsessed with that tour it was so good where did you where did you see the manchester uh yeah so i saw them in leeds um and manchester uh and then the following year, they played a little one-off uh festival in the uk called blue dot and they were headlining right yeah yeah and that was really cool um yeah you got some of the uk gigs didn't you yeah i saw every every stop except for leeds oh no that's a shame yeah oh so you're at manchester yeah yeah that was a good one i thought yeah too yeah that i remember on that one they, they opened with major leagues didn't they which i think which is a bit i always think that's a bit of an odd uh odd intro song it doesn't really get things going in the same way it sort of set the mood for the night like it was a more mellow show for sure definitely definitely it's but still great still a great song yeah, but yeah no but then so the funny thing about the Leeds gig was um.

Track 3:

[11:52] I went with my brother and we went for some food beforehand and a couple of drinks. And we're in this Indian restaurant. And the waiter comes over and says, oh, are you guys going to the pavement gig later? Because he must have seen our T-shirts and things like that. Well, oh, yeah, yeah. And he goes, oh, the band ate next door just an hour ago. So there was another slightly more upper class Indian restaurant next door. And he's like, oh, no, they just ate there recently. and so i was like really really buzzing from that i was like oh yeah we've eaten in the restaurant next to the one that pavement ate in so we finished up there and we're walking up to the venue and the doors opened i think at seven and it was probably about you know one or two minutes to seven o'clock and we're walking up through the town center and as we're walking, we kind of notice that we're kind of walking in step with this other group that are kind of walking in this at the same speed and in the same direction you know it's a bit awkward when you're kind of trying to overtake each other and uh i thought hang on they've got they sound like american accent and um so i look over and it's uh it's bob and spiral walking up walking up to the venue um and bear in mind that the doors are just about to open so they're just like strolling up through the city center like they've got all the time in the world.

Track 3:

[13:15] And I was like, oh, you know, I don't normally, you know, don't normally do this but i'll have to i've got to say something you know and i've had a couple of pints by this point so i was feeling a bit more uh confident but uh so so as we got to the traffic lights i stopped them and said oh sorry guys you know just got to say hello you know you're a big fan and they were really really nice guys just stopped and we sort of stood there by the road and chatted for about five minutes or so and you know they were in no rush at all to to get to the venue or start the gig or anything like that um yeah so really really nice um, really nice guys uh and then and from that point yeah it was just a great gig uh yeah yeah oh that's so fun that you got to meet them they're so gracious right yeah no really good guys and just yeah just chatting like you know like it was like it was nothing you know yeah and you know asking where we were from and you know uh they were talking about how they'd played at the same venue with sonic youth like back in the 90s and you know and stuff like that just really yeah it's really nice little little moment um and then managed to to meet them a second time um at the blue dot festival uh the year after wow uh because they and i don't think this was really.

Track 3:

[14:40] Picked up online that much but on the first event of the day at the festival it was on the poster described as a listening party, And I thought a listening party with pavement and it was a sort of event curated by Tim Burgess from the charlatans. Okay. He does these sort of online listening parties where he plays an album and people listen along live and, you know, that sort of thing. And so I thought, okay, that's probably just, you know, in a tent somewhere, they're probably playing a pavement album and maybe talking about it on stage, that sort of thing. So I thought, well, I'll head over to that before, you know.

Track 3:

[15:20] Before we go and see any bands. And so I head over to this tent, turn the corner, and the entire band are in this tent, up on this little stage. And it's probably about, I don't know, maybe 200 people on sort of chairs. It's like a sort of wedding tent, you know, like chairs. And they're playing Wari Zari through the speakers. And they've got this interviewer on stage, and she's just talking to them about the album as they play it through, like track by track.

Track 3:

[15:50] Um and you know so you got like a sort of track by track rundown of every wow it's like it's so surreal to sort of turn the corner step into this tent and you know mount merson the rest of them were all on stage and they're doing that kind of track by track blow by blow rundown of every every you know every song on the rise alley i was just i was just like i wish i wish i had a bit of paper to write some of this stuff down or to remember what they're saying because it was it was really good really good sort of um director's commentary yeah exactly it's like you know those sort of um uh on tv here on say like you know on like a friday night we might get, a sort of behind the scenes documentary on some 80s band or something and they're sitting at the mixing desk and they're talking about how they recorded this album years ago it was like that but for a band you actually like and for an album you know um an album you're actually really invested in um yeah so that was really cool, uh and then yeah so what's your go-to record these days uh these days i would say it's um yeah uh because i think it's got the most variety sure does uh it's probably like the best.

Track 3:

[17:10] Single if you were to sort of say what if you were to give one record to somebody and say this This is what pavement's like. I would say it's Wari Zari because it's got the louder stuff, the quieter stuff.

Track 3:

[17:21] It's really eclectic.

Track 3:

[17:26] Yeah, when I was younger, it was Crooked Rain that was always the one that I would go to. But I think now it's Wari Zari.

Track 3:

[17:37] Well, what do you think there, Stephen? Should we flip the record and talk about song number 27? Let's do it, yeah. Alright, we'll be back right after this.

Track 3:

[23:35] It's the fourth song from Terror Twilight on the Countdown. Song number 27 is the fantastic The Hex. Stephen, what are your initial thoughts about this song, The Hex? The Hex. It's a really cool song. It's, I think it's completely different to anything else that Pavement does. I think it's very unique. um it's got a style which isn't really isn't really there in any i can't think of any other song that looks like it it's um you know it's kind of it's kind of slow kind of lurching, atmospheric um it's got a kind of it's almost a kind of proggy kind of vibe um Um, uh, but yeah, no, no, it's really, it's really cool. Um, I love the guitar solo. It's, it's absolutely brilliant. Did they play at any of the live shows you went to? They did. They did. They did, uh, at Blue Dot. Yeah. I was, um, they, they didn't take leads on Manchester and I was really hoping they would. Uh, and yeah, and then they, they played it at the last one. So I was happy. Yeah. Really happy with that. They really open it up live. Don't they? Oh, it's great. Yeah. Yeah, really cool song live.

Track 3:

[24:57] It's one of those kind of jammy songs. You know, you can tell it's come from a, you know, a band session rather than something that's been kind of written in advance.

Track 3:

[25:10] And in fact, you've got the, there's that other version of it, isn't there? And then the Hex. Yeah, and then the Hex. Yeah, that's on the B side. and that's i think that was part of the bright in the corners sessions yeah i believe so yeah yeah yeah and so that that version is pretty cool as well but that's much more it hasn't really got that kind of haunting sort of vibe to it it's more kind of crunchy and rocky it kind of i don't think it really emphasizes that sort of guitar line so much it's more straight into the kind of chorus and then like Magnus is doing the kind of scatting yelling bit over the top, it's quite a cool version. Yeah. So you can kind of see how that kind of rocky jam that they started with sort of evolved into this kind of more atmospheric, proggy song and I'd imagine quite a lot of that is probably down to Nigel Godrich. I bet you're right. I bet you're right. Because it's really dense as well, isn't it? Yeah. Whereas a lot of Pavement songs tend to be sparse production-wise, the whole Terror Twilight is so rich and atmospheric. Yeah. This song is a great example of that. Definitely, definitely. It's almost kind of claustrophobic. You can kind of get lost in it.

Track 3:

[26:33] Yeah, it's a really cool song. um in fact yeah on the on the nigel gottrich uh sequence i think he puts it at number two, so he obviously thinks it's like uh you know should be up there at the beginning i do think it works a bit better at the end as a uh you know as a sort of finale rather than pin it right right up there at the beginning yeah i like the sequence that that they put together for uh terror twilight uh i think i like it a little bit better than the gottrich sequence but it's cool that we have both. Definitely, yeah. Yeah. It changes the record. It does, it does. It's funny how a sequence can change the feel of something. Yeah. But like I was saying before, Spit on a Stranger is just the perfect opening for an album, I think. It's spot on to put that at the beginning.

Track 3:

[27:28] But to start off with The Hex, it's pretty dense. It's pretty yeah um but yeah no yeah really cool so do you have a handle on what this song is about, well i was having to think and yeah i mean i've been listening to this song a lot, over the past few weeks in preparation um and trying to get a sense of what's what's going on but to me it feels kind of it's kind of in some ways it's a bit radio heady because i think it's it's kind of, it's kind of a bit about um existence and alienation and feeling sort of lost and uh like some of the lyrics um, He's talking about, you know, sort of been reeling around a parking lot, being, you know, being lost in life and not knowing where you're going.

Track 3:

[28:27] There's some great stuff in the lyrics. That line about the epileptic surgeons with their eyes X'd out. You know, it's pretty creepy stuff. Yeah. You know, attending to the torn up kid. so you can kind of imagine this sort of you know you can kind of read that as someone who's sort of physically broken or someone who's maybe emotionally torn up like you know life has just got too heavy and right broken them down and you've got these sort of zombie, twitching surgeons attending you know attending to this kid um so pretty pretty sort of nightmarish childish kind of stuff um i love that line about the uh the secondary stumbles because the cadence of the count has led him astray i just love the sort of syncopation of that line it's it's brilliant um and then you've got uh uh the the sort of section about the architecture students which i love that yeah that's got to be one of his uh one of his best lines definitely It's, yeah, really funny. It kind of.

Track 3:

[29:50] Yeah, he has these lines like the bit about, you know, the architecture students with the itch they can't scratch, and, you know, the surgeons in the second verse and songs like Grounded where he's sort of taking a pot at doctors and it seems like he's got this kind of.

Track 3:

[30:09] He likes to sort of take the pot shots at the professional classes, I think. I think, you know, he's there from the sort of creative side, the artistic side and he's looking at the people that are kind of dedicating their lives to these sort of, you know to these professional and technical endeavors and he's sort of you know taking little pot shots at that I think that's I think that's great. I like that that's good but yeah it's kind of, it reminds me of a lot of like a Radiohead song something from OK Computer or something where it's talking about the state of the world and alienation and being lost and these sort of little nightmarish, the janets uh here and there um really good really good stuff um the the line about the swallow at the beginning is pretty cool as well i mean i think so too yeah i mean i think that's him kind of in some ways kind of showing off a little bit about some you know his knowledge about migratory birds which you know you can see that so it's quite humorous on that on that side but also i think it's kind of talking about um so so the line is uh swallow answer to your inner voice and please return god installed that radar in your pointy little beak so please return so it's kind of like it's a bit you know you could see it one way it's about nature about migratory birds or you could or you could see that it's something to do with kind of like destiny and fate.

Track 3:

[31:39] These creatures are kind of, you know, they're drawn back. They've got no sort of free will.

Track 3:

[31:47] And you can maybe see it like, perhaps it's kind of, maybe like a broken relationship and he's, you know, his partner's broken up with him and gone off and he knows they'll come back because they're drawn back with this sort of instinct, this kind of fate. You know, you can't escape this kind of instinct that's within you. Um good yeah so it's all yeah there's i think there's a lot of stuff in there like that which is i think i think different to to your average pavement song it's a lot more downbeat a lot darker a lot sort of um.

Track 3:

[32:24] A lot more sort of oppressive um and and that together with the whole sort of rhythm with the thing and the kind of sort of lurching piano guitar line that sort of just you know that sort of those sort of bass notes and then sort of that sort of descending guitar part all the way down yeah um yeah really cool really cool nice stab nice stab on the sm lyrics though because Because, for real, he's really tough to nail down, right? Like, it's really tough to figure out what he's saying because it does change so much. It is like phraseology, in a sense, you know? Like, just throwing out neat, syncopatic phrases and bits of thoughts and bits of ideas, and then you get this structure, you know? Very cool. Yeah, definitely. It's more about the kind of image. which, you know, it's kind of poetry in that sense, isn't it? Because it's more about the image it creates in your head than anything literal, you know? Yeah.

Track 3:

[33:28] How do you feel about the ranking of this song? Is it properly ranked? Is it 27? Should it be higher? Should it be lower? Yeah. I mean, not wanting to question the abacus, but I think it could be higher. I think uh i was just looking at my my uh submission to you and i think i had it at 13, that sounds more about right like just outside the top 10 i think it's one of the one of the one of the greats definitely i mean it's different i can i can understand why it's lower because i think i don't think it's a pavement song in that sense i think it's more of a it's not really really representative of what what they do it's quite unique um it's more of a shows you that sorry i apologize okay it all well it also shows you that terror twilight just doesn't have the same love that you know that other pavement records have you know like people like some of the songs are held back because you know people like a lot of people have terror twilight is number five. The rest of the records are interchangeable. You know, like, oh, I have Slanted at number one. Oh, I have Crooked at number one. Oh, I have Wally's Alley at number one. But most people have Terror of Twilight around five, it seems.

Track 3:

[34:50] Yeah, no, I can understand that. And I think maybe because this was the first record that I got, you don't come to it with all that sort of baggage, really. That's right. You can kind of see it as an isolated record rather than in the context of everything else. But no, I think it needs to be higher. Just for the guitar solo alone, it's like, it's so, so, so good.

Track 3:

[35:16] It's almost kind of a bit Pink Floyd-y, a bit kind of prog-y. It's probably like the cleanest guitar solo that he does really like most most of the guitar stuff he does is kind of you know sort of intentionally sloppy and and you know distorted and he's hit you know hitting these off key notes on purpose and you know like like the um like the solo on thin which is another absolutely fantastic solo but that's all like you know that's that's completely all over the place which you know in a really good way but uh in a great way yeah Whereas this solo is much more tightly controlled and sort of almost like classic rock. You know, it's really nice. Interesting. Classic rock. Okay, I can see that. Yeah, I could see it on the, you know, downside of the moon or something like that. Yeah. I was just listening to Dark Side before we got on the call. Yeah. Nice, nice. Yeah.

Track 3:

[36:16] Yeah. Well, man, it's been great having you on to talk about your origin story and the hacks. Is there anything that you want to plug or anything like that? No, not really. No, I don't really have much internet presence or produce anything creative. Well, that's cool. That's cool, nevertheless. No, no, no. I really appreciate your time. And I thank you so much for doing this. No worries. it's no it's been it's been a lot of fun i was i was looking forward to this for a long time and you know like i said i've been enjoying the countdown so far uh and uh looking forward to see what seeing what comes up at the top i'll never tell yeah well i'll tell in december but yeah all right steven thanks so much talk to you soon watch your goddamn hands.

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This week on the ole Pavement top 50 podcast, jD welcomes Amir from Providence to talk all about his Pavement origin story and to breakdown song 28!

Transcript:

Track 1:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. Oh, I love this song so much. It's a song, I hadn't, it wasn't on my first wave of songs to study, even though I knew we were going to play it. But it wasn't, like, you know, there were other songs I felt like I had to nail more. So this was towards the end. I said, okay, let me get into this type slow jam. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band.

Track 3:

[0:24] And you're listening to The Countdown. Hey it's shay d here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band pavement week over week we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots i then tabulated the results using an abacus and the kid from the sixth sense wait a minute am i dead how will your favorite song fare in the rankings. You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by pavement superfan Amir from Providence. Amir, how the fuck are you? Hello, I'm calling from Providence, Rhode Island, and I'm very fine. Life is good. Excellent. That is good news. It's great to have you here. Let's just not beat around the bush. Let's get right into this. What is your Or pavement origin story. So that's a long origin story. So I live in Providence, Rhode Island, as I mentioned. By the way, cheers. This is local. Cheers. Watery domestic beer from Rhode Island. Narragansett Atlantic-like lager. So...

Track 3:

[1:37] A little plug for Atlantic Light Lager. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, that's very watery. Anyway, so I was not born here. I was born in Moscow, not Moscow, Idaho. Moscow, Soviet Union, which is more or less the same thing as Russia. And I grew up there in the 80s. And I loved music since I was, I don't know, since I remember myself. I started playing piano when I was four. So I listened to a lot of music it was also the 1980s were an exciting time for rock music in Russia because Russia was like after many decades of like complete censorship it was starting to open up and, rock music suddenly became legal so it was possible to listen to that, if you if this makes you curious I recommend everybody listen to the Wind of Change podcast It's just an amazing story. Oh, it's amazing. I've listened to it. Yes, it's brilliant. So, but, yeah, so I started, like, loving rock music when I was, like, a child. But we are a Jewish family, so we moved to Israel in 1991.

Track 3:

[2:52] And even though Russia was opening up back then, Israel was, like, always a very open country, open to everything. So we had MTV, or more precisely, we had MTV Europe, which is not exactly the same thing. Uh mtv like in the united states and mtv europe it's not exactly the same thing mtv europe has a lot of uh uk uh bias and uh like because it broadcasted from the uk uh and uh it's it also tried to incorporate some other european music like italian or german but it was mostly like very uk biased so that's when i was growing up mtv was uh important it was like there was no youtube YouTube kind of replaced MTV now but MTV was important culturally like hugely important not just for myself but for a lot of other people, but initially when I started like watching it it was kind of boring at least during the day but then during the night it got much more exciting because they started like after midnight, they started playing much more interesting stuff and there was a show called Alternative Nation I think it was every Tuesday on MTV Europe and they played stuff like Sonic Youth and Pavement and European what you would say alternative bands, like whatever alternative even means.

Track 3:

[4:18] I tried to figure out what does it even mean that it's alternative? Is it a certain guitar sound? It actually doesn't mean much at all. It's just rock music that is cooler than Bon Jovi. Well, what's funny, it was alternative to the mainstream and then it became the mainstream. Exactly. Like, if you look back at this, like, it was totally the mainstream. Like, Nirvana was alternative, but it was already quite the mainstream back in 1992. And by now, it's completely mainstream. But, you know, whatever. Names of things are sometimes funny. So, yeah. And they mentioned pavement occasionally. Now, initially, they mentioned, I didn't really dig it. Like I remember, I definitely remember they showed Cut Your Hair, of course. They never showed it during the day. They showed it late at night.

Track 3:

[5:12] I didn't really understand it. I was like, it just looked weird. And these days, I look at the Cut Your Hair video, and now I'm a Dan and I have children, and they look at it and they just think it's funny with the gorilla and the lizard. Yes. And I was just overthinking it totally. Like I was 15 years old. why what does what does this mean i was totally overthinking it um but yeah they should cut your hair and they i remember they showed the gold sounds video um maybe also yeah rattled by the rush like the weird the weird version with the bathtub okay didn't really understand like what's the deal with that so i did love like i did love a lot of other alternative bands like i loved sonic youth i loved therapy if you if you heard that's a band from northern ireland uh i love the, alternative, rock band, whatever that means.

Track 3:

[6:03] Anyway, so then I graduated high school. And as pretty much everybody else in Israel, I got drafted to the military. Now, what you don't hear, you often hear about the Israeli military on the news. What you don't hear about the Israeli military is that most people there, they don't do combat and wars and stuff like that. It's just, I work with computers And that's like what most people do. They work with, you know, cars, equipment, computers, whatever. I worked with computers. And I had a friend there. And that friend was much cooler than I am. He's probably still to this day much cooler than I am. And he had many more CDs than I had. And he knew alternative music like way better than I had. I did know Sonic Youth. Sonic Youth, which is another Samuel band. I did know Sonic Youth much better than he did. But other than that, he was like the huge expert. He taught me about cool bands like Mogwai and Mercury Rev and a bunch of others. And he taught me about pavement.

Track 3:

[7:08] And he gave me the Wowie Zowie CD to listen. Interesting. And I was immediately hooked. That was just incredible. So like from the first seconds of We Dance, oh my God, how did I miss that? We Dance is such a brilliant song. I'm just thinking about this. I will make this really weird comparison, but it kind of makes sense to me. Because like I mentioned that I play piano. I played piano for many years, like almost 40 years now. Oh my God. I'm old. And I...

Track 3:

[7:43] There's another band called Guns N' Roses. There is. Which is nowhere near as cool as Pavement. Nowhere near. But that's like the not-alternative thing that they were showing a lot on MTV. And I couldn't feel like, why are so many people excited about this band? And then I saw November Rain, which, ooh, it has piano. Piano is classy. So it's classy. It doesn't... No, I'm not comparing. I'm not comparing Guns N' Roses to Pavement, but We Dance had the piano, piano is classy. And so I heard like, Ooh, that's a much like, that's such an interesting song. And I absolutely loved it. And I loved the rest of the album as hectic and eclectic as it is and extremely long. I saw it described somewhere as three six-song EPs or six three-song EPs. That's probably the... That's an interesting way to look at it. Yeah, I saw it described like that somewhere. It's a very weird album, but it's so great. It's absolutely like all of it. I love it. And then I heard the rest of it from that friend. And he gave me like Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, and Brighten the Corners.

Track 3:

[9:10] And later I just bought them all myself. So slanted, of course. So I have them all twice because they released them with the usual version and then the Lux and Redux and all those. LA Desert, they expanded. So I have them all twice.

Track 3:

[9:27] Yeah. And yeah, so that's kind of my pavement origin story. And yeah, and I became a super fan, I guess, around 98 or 99. Wow. So you got to experience Terror Twilight when it came out. That one you got to experience, right? In real time? Yep. What did you think of that at the time? It was very different. I did love it. I loved all the songs. I listened to it a lot back then.

Track 3:

[9:57] It's very different it's very different from if I really have I don't want to but if I really have to pick a favorite album it would probably be Crooked Rain Crooked Rain I really love them all but Terror Twilight is very different, has its own style unlike Wawizawi which has like 20 different styles but yeah, Terror Twilight definitely has a certain and particular.

Track 3:

[10:25] Integrated feel to it. Yeah, I would agree. So did you ever get a chance to see them live? Yeah. So first time I saw something related to Pavement, it was not Pavement. And it was not Malcolm's solo. It was a show in Israel, in Tel Aviv, in 2004. It was a tribute show, like a bunch of local Israeli bands played a tribute show to Pavement and Malcolm's. Really? It was pretty brilliant. Yeah. Israel has like a very varied music scene. Okay. Rock of all kinds of styles and jazz. I know nothing about it. It's not that known around the world, but it has a very rich, vibrant music scene. Mostly sang in Hebrew, but occasionally in English. So that show had bands singing mostly in English. Like I remember a band that I really loved, they performed Gold Sounds.

Track 3:

[11:27] And here, I think, uh, that's like, that, that's how I, that's how I found out about that show that like, there was a band that I, that I love. They, they, that band used to be called blush and lure back then. And they sang in English later. They changed the name of the band and they started singing in Hebrew, but, but back then they were singing in English and, uh, yeah. So they performed two songs there. I think it's definitely gold sounds and probably here. Here and uh yeah there was a bunch of other bands and like some of them did like very similar versions to the original some of them completely reworked them as like punk songs some of them translated the lyrics to hebrew like there was a i think it was father to a sister of thought they completely translated it to hebrew that was that was fun so anyway uh yeah that was a cool show. The second time I saw something pavement related was in 2010.

Track 3:

[12:23] 2010, that was the first big reunion in New York, in Central Park. That was a brilliant show. It's actually possible that you and I went to the same show. Yes, I know. Yeah. And yeah, I absolutely loved it. I think, like you mentioned a couple of times on your podcast, that, how did you describe it? That they seemed tired or something like that?

Track 3:

[12:48] Yeah, they just didn't seem into it. You know, the same way they did on this newer tour. Maybe, um, maybe I, I was absolutely excited about this. Oh, me too. At least, at least the part, they also seemed like very excited. Uh, the Stanowich was like ecstatic, uh, eyeballed, uh, who is like, usually very like quiet and, uh, serious. He was actually quite chatty on the stage. I remember, like, I remember him speaking to New York and how cool, like he's, he's from New York and how cool New York is and how cool Queens is. He, he mentioned Queens. I don't remember what he's, what did he say exactly, but like, he's like, are there people from Queens or something like that? Like he looked. I don't remember that. Yeah. And he's, he mentioned something like that. So anyway, um, yeah, it was, it was a fantastic show. Such a fantastic show.

Track 3:

[13:43] Heckler Spray, Summer Babe. Oh, wow. In the Mountain Desert. Uh, just a fantastic, fantastic show. So is the record that you go back to now, like, is it Wowie Zowie when you have a hankering for Pavement, or is it your favorite, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain? I would probably say, it's so hard to say, I would probably say Crooked Rain and Slanted, but I love them all. I love them all. I listen to them all. There was a third Pavement-related thing I saw, and that was Malkmus.

Track 3:

[14:18] Malcolm's solo I think it was in 2012 or 13 it was the it was it was.

Track 3:

[14:26] Oh, I'm, I'm blacking out. Which, uh, which, uh, the album with, uh, uh, Senator, uh, which, which album is that? Mirror Traffic? Yes, that one. Uh, yeah. So that was, that was a brilliant show. Uh, that was a really brilliant show. Towards, towards the end, he did, uh, uh, something like, uh, funny, uh, Faith No More impersonation. Really? yeah like towards the end of the show he played he played a couple of famous so he played here and i think uh speaks he remember and uh at one of the songs towards the end they were like the jigs were getting all uh uh in a good mood and uh jamming and at some point they just started started playing um what's the famous faith no more song epic yeah yeah they just I started playing that. That's so cool. Yeah. Anyway, it was a brilliant rock and roll show. So yeah, so these are the three Pavement-related shows I attended. Nice. Well, what do you say we take a quick break and come back and talk about song number 28? Let's do that. Let's do that. Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement.

Track 1:

[15:43] Thanks listening. And now on with a countdown. 28.

Track 3:

[20:18] Song number 28 on the countdown comes from Crooked Rain. Crooked Rain, amazingly, it's the first song from their sophomore effort to appear on this list. You can exhale now because track 28 is Stop Breathing. Amir. Yeah. What are your initial thoughts about this song? I love this song. It appears in my top 20 that I sent you. I think it's number 14 there. so it's, half of your number I know maybe I should have rated it even higher it's like it's a brilliant song it's kind of special I made a bit of homework so it has the, it has if I'm not mistaken I learned music for many years but maybe I'm mistaken about something but almost all Pavement songs have the quadruple rhythm 1, 2, 3, 4 okay this one is Because the correct term here is probably the six-eighths rhythm. Oh, okay. One, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three.

Track 3:

[21:27] So there are not a lot of pavement songs in this rhythm. On the studio albums, it's just Our Singer and Stop Breathing. And half of Fight This Generation, the beginning of Fight This Generation. Oh, okay. The rest, and well, there's also 5-4 equals Unity, which begins in 5-4ths. And then I think actually the chorus is also in 3-4ths or 6-8ths. And the rest of the pavement, well, in all the kinds of B-sides and bonus tracks, tracks uh there are a bunch of uh um six eighths uh songs uh mercy snack kentucky cocktail so stark sagano stray fire um and yeah that's about it you did do your homework i did do my homework there's also kneeling bus uh also known as rugrat which is a very weird beat that i couldn't completely understand a very very cool one uh but it's like it's neither four neither three but yeah so that's so it's pretty.

Track 3:

[22:36] It's pretty unique relatively unique in that regard it's beautifully placed in the track list at the third third spot kind of a different mood between like the big rockers the, uh elevate me later and uh cut your hair yeah so that one has a different mood it has very beautiful uh guitar sound uh throughout the song and especially of course towards the end, um so yeah i absolutely love the song one of the best they the pavement has very, pretty much no songs that uh i would like say that they are bad but this this one is really one one of the best so what's your relationship with this song uh crooked rain crooked rain you said is your favorite record so what do you remember about the first time you heard this song or.

Track 3:

[23:33] Something like that so so this was the this was the second album i heard uh after wavy zowie and it's relatively much more uh much more of a straightforward rock straight absolutely relatively, compare it compared to wawi especially the first song like it gets a bit weirder towards the end but uh the beginning of it it's like it's a relatively very straightforward i agree.

Track 3:

[23:58] In a classic rock album i i i heard somewhere that uh malcolm called it like disparagingly classic rock like he said that silent kid is a is a classic rock song in like in a not very good way, but he's wrong well it's maybe he was just sarcastic i don't know it was Because Silent Kid is a brilliant song. And Stop Breathing is a brilliant song. It has this really, really beautiful guitar sound and this beat. And it may be, oh my God, this is such a cool rock band with cool melodies. And they do all these things so easily. And it sounds like they were just having fun. But the song, it's kind of somber, kind of solemn, kind of serious. Yeah, I agree. Relatively. It has this special atmosphere. Nevertheless, it feels like while they're playing it, they're having a lot of fun with these guitars. Like, that's a really special guitar sound, especially towards the end. And it gets stronger and stronger.

Track 3:

[25:08] And oh my God, it's just so beautiful. It's just so inspirational. Yeah. What do you think the song is about? I have no idea. I barely ever listen to lyrics, to be honest. In music, I mostly listen to the melodies and the playing and the arrangements.

Track 3:

[25:31] Volley. Like, volley has a... It's kind of a... Like, it probably refers to both things. Like, both to the volley in sports. ports and in the war. And that's kind of a menacing word. It's struck by the first volley. So that gets you in a kind of a tragic mood from the start. And then it says, stop breathing. And there's also this alternative version on LA Desert Origins where he says, start bleeding, like stop breathing and then start bleeding. Really? Yeah. I gotta re-listen to LA Desert Origins. My memory is so shit. Oh, well. Yeah. It's like the comment there is that it's from Louder Than You you think, 1993, and it's probably, I don't know, maybe it's a demo, maybe it's not a demo, maybe it was at some point intended to be released. But in the chorus there, he says, stop breathing and then start bleeding, which makes it even more menacing. Yeah.

Track 3:

[26:46] Yeah. So there's this menacing song, and right after it, there's Cut Your Hair, which is very fun. The exact opposite. The exact opposite.

Track 3:

[26:55] But menacing, you know, my attitude to music is embodied in a poem that I really love. It was written by a jazz musician who's very old, but he's still alive, I think. His name is Oliver Lake, a jazz saxophone player. And he wrote a poem. And in the poem, he mentions names of many musical artists that he loves. and they're very different artists.

Track 3:

[27:26] And he's like, and the poem is built like a conversation between himself and the waiter in the restaurant. And then he says, put all the meals in one, put all my meals in one plate. Don't ask me what kind of music I play. I play the good kind. So I like, I actually, I don't care very much about the genres of music and I don't care very much about the mood of a particular song. Like some songs are happy and some songs are sad and some songs are scary like these are all important things but uh eventually i i i judge all songs by like this is the good song or is it not a very good song and uh this song is is of the good kind uh yeah that's that's the really important thing like it like it definitely has a mood uh definitely has a very identifiable probably intentional mood and it's probably placed intentionally in that sequence uh on the album but it definitely has this character.

Track 3:

[28:25] So this is going to be I think I know the answer to this because.

Track 3:

[28:31] You've already told me what you rated it on your list but do you think this song is properly rated overrated underrated on the top 50 28 is lowish, I would be very unpleasantly surprised if it was not in the top 50 at all um i like i would probably rate it a bit higher uh maybe it's not my number one song but it's like it's pretty like it's pretty high it's pretty high on my list it's a great song it is absolutely there's nothing to shake a stick at unless it's a complimentary uh stick shaking your dick fun fun fact about uh the tennis part uh the so the song is like you mentioned it uh You mentioned that you read it from those notes that Malthus had in his own songs. And he mentioned tennis himself, so we have it from himself.

Track 3:

[29:28] I checked it. So I edit Wikipedia quite often in English and in Hebrew and occasionally in other languages. And I checked what is actually Malthus' relation to tennis.

Track 3:

[29:41] And the English Wikipedia mentions that he loves playing golf and tennis, but he doesn't, Here's where it gets funny. So Wikipedia editors, good, serious Wikipedia editors, try to fact-check everything. And the fact-check in Wikipedia is done by adding footnotes. You may have noticed that Wikipedia has lots of footnotes. So I checked the footnotes. So where it mentions that he plays golf and tennis, it had two footnotes. Both of them were not very good. One of them was a completely dead link. the other one didn't say anything about any sports so I found another source like it's actually a tennis website where he speaks about actually loving tennis so yeah so there's another confirmation that he loves tennis that other tennis website mentioned the song yeah so I improved the English Wikipedia article about Mr. Stephen Maltmes and now it has a better footnote for the tennis information, So, yeah, that's a kind of thing I do for fun. Cool.

Track 3:

[30:50] Well, it's been really great talking to you today. I'm curious if you have anything that you want to plug or mention for people to look at on the internet or anything that you've created, anything like that. Well not much I'm kind of I'm trying I'm trying to I moved I lived in Israel for many years and I moved to Providence a few months ago my wife is doing an academic project here so we all moved together with the kids.

Track 3:

[31:21] But I love as I mentioned I love Israeli music I'm, there's not much to plug I'm trying to start a band that would play covers of Israeli songs which is challenging in the united states i it's i'm slowly finding some people to do that but there's not much to say about this right now uh but uh you know you can you can find in the future there might be a band that we can look for hopefully and uh then i would maybe um i would i would probably i would probably mostly play uh covers of israeli music or maybe in the loop on that amir maybe an occasional pavement song what's that keep me in the loop on that shoot me an email when you get it going and I'll talk about it on the pod. I haven't tried that. Maybe an occasional pavement song. Yeah, that would be cool. Well, like I say, it's been a blast spending this time with you today. I really appreciate you doing this heavy lifting on a podcast that is ostensibly yours.

Track 3:

[32:21] So, thank you very much for that and make sure to wash your goddamn hands.

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This week on the pod I'm thrilled to be joined by Rebecca Clay Cole motherfuckers! We talk about her Pavement origin story, to joining the band on key, and breaking down song number 29!

Transcript:

Track 2:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 1:

[0:02] At track 30, we have Spit on a Stranger. What the hell do you make of this song, Devin? I'm really glad I got this song because I love this song. And the thing about this song is that there's a real tension within the song that truly appeals to me. because I believe that musically and in the verses, this is the most romantic song that Pavement has ever recorded.

Track 2:

[0:31] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band, Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 3:

[0:39] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and all my fingers on my left hand, except for my thumb. Fuck you, thumb. How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that.

Track 2:

[1:06] This week, we're joined by Pavement superfan, well, not Pavement superfan, Pavement superstar, Rebecca fucking Clay Cole. Rebecca, how the hell are you?

Track 4:

[1:17] Hello, I actually, I'm a fan. I don't know if I'm a super fan, because I've met some super fans. And I don't know if I have the level of technical knowledge. But I'm a fan and in the band. So nice to meet you.

Track 3:

[1:30] Nice to meet you as well. You definitely have the technical knowledge. I saw you guys play on the 22 reunion tour eight times, I think. And it was tremendous. I had so much fun. I was at the Fonda show. I saw two shows in Toronto and then like six shows in London.

Track 4:

[1:48] Oh, great.

Track 3:

[1:49] Or not London, but UK.

Track 4:

[1:51] Cool.

Track 3:

[1:52] So very, a lot of fun.

Track 4:

[1:54] A good range of shows there.

Track 3:

[1:55] Yeah, I think so. I was pleased. I wanted to go to Iceland really bad, but that didn't fall on the cards.

Track 4:

[2:02] Well, maybe we'll be in Iceland again someday.

Track 3:

[2:04] That would be cool.

Track 4:

[2:05] Join us if that happens.

Track 3:

[2:07] I will do that. So let's get right to the punch here and talk about, this is sort of funny to be talking about something, Sort of funny to be talking with somebody in the band about their Pavement Origins story, but obviously you came late to the band, and we'll talk about that. I really want to know what it's like to join a band that's an established band, but hasn't been on the road in a while. I want to know that as well, but I really want to know your Pavement Origins story.

Track 4:

[2:36] My Pavement Origins story. Well, I think the first time I was aware of Pavement was when they were opening for Sonic Youth. It was maybe Sonic Youth Mudhoney Pavement at Red Rocks.

Track 3:

[2:52] Oh, really?

Track 4:

[2:53] They were the first band to play and I had never heard of them. I hadn't heard of much because at this point I think I was six months in Denver. And before that I'd lived like on a farm and on an island. So I had no cultural touchstones at all for a teenager. I was really, I wouldn't say ignorant, but I just sort of formed my own musical education. I'd never been to a punk show. There were no punk shows in the Virgin Islands, you know, or in the farm in Kentucky. So all of that is to say some friends took me to Red Rocks to see this show. And Pavement was the first band. So that was my first introduction to Pavement.

Track 3:

[3:29] And what did you think?

Track 4:

[3:31] I did not understand it. I didn't understand it at all. But Gary was in fine form, and I remember not spending a lot of time behind his kit. And I just was confused what the performance was. I didn't understand it. I didn't have the language to understand it at the time.

Track 3:

[3:49] That's phenomenal. And Red Rocks, to boot. I've never been, but it's supposed to be just a fantastic venue, right?

Track 4:

[3:59] Maybe Pavement can play it again with me.

Track 3:

[4:02] Oh, that's awesome.

Track 4:

[4:04] I'll just plant that seed out there to the universe.

Track 3:

[4:06] Yeah.

Track 4:

[4:07] We'd like it to grow.

Track 3:

[4:08] So where did it go from there? Did you... At what point did you click? Did it go, oh, yeah, I get this?

Track 4:

[4:17] You know, not much later. Maybe a year or two later, I was... I found myself joined into an indie band. And this was 90... 94 maybe okay um 93 94 95 for sure um and so pavement was of course i should maybe it's not and of course but it was just like a touchstone you know it was like they were one of the coolest bands doing it and someone that everyone in my scene looked up to very very greatly and so i saw them touring wawi zawi they had my friends the apples and stereo opening for them for a section of that tour and so I got to see that show with Apple's opening which was great um so yeah I would say Wowie Zowie was that era where I like I definitely remember thrifting for my first set of stage clothes for the Minders like listening to that cassette going to the thrift store with my friend Tammy oh.

Track 3:

[5:12] That's a cool memory.

Track 4:

[5:13] Getting ready for our first gig yeah.

Track 3:

[5:15] That's so cool what What was the name.

Track 4:

[5:17] Of the band? The Minders.

Track 3:

[5:19] The Minders. Is there anything out there that people can find?

Track 4:

[5:24] Yeah. Check it out.

Track 3:

[5:26] Yeah, I will definitely check that out. Yeah. So from there, we fast forward a number of years, and it's now 2021, I'm guessing, when you got the call, or was it early in 2022?

Track 4:

[5:43] I actually, Steven had asked me in 2020, 19.

Track 3:

[5:50] Oh, right. Because they were going to go on the road in 2020.

Track 4:

[5:54] Because the Jicks were at Primavera, I think.

Track 3:

[5:59] Okay.

Track 4:

[5:59] If I'm not mistaken. This is how I remember it in my time. I'm friends with Joanna. She played briefly in The Minders. And we're just really close in addition to that. And the rest of the Jicks. I'm friends with all the Jicks. But anyway, Stephen had asked me about 2020 and not to tell anyone. And so I hadn't. And so then somehow, because they were in Barcelona, he must have mentioned that I was doing it or that it was happening or someone in Barcelona. I don't know. But I got a lot of angry texts from the jigs like, why didn't you tell us?

Track 3:

[6:30] Oh, man.

Track 4:

[6:31] It's like, well, I was asked not to say anything to anyone. It was really hard. I'm glad someone knows now.

Track 3:

[6:37] You're a person of your word. That's great.

Track 4:

[6:39] In this one case, I was, yeah. Usually I'm that terrible gossip. it so.

Track 3:

[6:45] That happens and then obviously covet happens so that doesn't that doesn't you know pan out but 2022 comes around and you guys all assemble in portland to um to jam and to rehearse like a shitload of songs.

Track 4:

[7:04] What was what.

Track 3:

[7:06] Was that like for you how much prep work did you have to do going into that.

Track 4:

[7:11] Um I took it pretty seriously and I did a lot of prep work I pretty much took the three months before those rehearsals were just me rehearsing for rehearsals and I set up my my rig basically the same rig I use live I set up a version of that in my living room, with a mixer and an amp and like you know tried all sorts of different keyboard configurations and tried to figure out what I wanted to use live. And then from there, sort of figuring out, you know, there was programming a lot of sounds. It was important for me to learn the catalog in such a way that, that my goal was like if steven just played any riff like kind of randomly started noodling it that i would be able to know like the song its title where to find it in my notes like does it have keyboard and do i have that part ready to go or percussion or vocals or anything so that was sort of the level i wanted to be prepared for practice the first full band rehearsal which i I think, actually, I think I met my goal. I took, I had extensive notes.

Track 3:

[8:16] You posted them on social, right?

Track 4:

[8:18] I think Bob posted that picture first.

Track 3:

[8:21] Yeah, yeah.

Track 4:

[8:22] I was surprised you wanted to, like, but yeah. Those were the distilled notes. I mean, like, some songs have pages and pages where I've just painstakingly, like, transcribed, you know, using music notation, like, how the part looks on the sheet so I could read it and understand it that way. Other notes are a little more esoteric and squiggly. So yeah, that was the prep, three months of that. And I got, of course, by the end thought I wasn't ready at all. And then I showed up to practice and realized I was pretty ready.

Track 3:

[9:00] So you walk into the room. I'm sorry to keep painting these pictures. But you walk into the room, and this is an established group of people. Although they haven't seen each other in 10 years probably or close to or some of them haven't seen each other. How difficult is that to insert yourself or be inserted in something that is already established like that?

Track 4:

[9:25] And something I love. Not just like something that it's established for me in that way.

Track 3:

[9:32] Yeah.

Track 4:

[9:33] It was sort of heavy actually. I made it heavy in the preparation I guess. Like, I was nervous. I was very nervous about, uh... I mean, it sounds silly to say now that I've spent some years with them, but I was just hoping everyone would like me. Not like personally, necessarily, but what I'm bringing to the songs. Was everyone in the band equally on board with having a keyboard player? Am I stepping on any parts? At first, I was concerned, does Bob still want to play some keyboard lines?

Track 3:

[10:06] Oh, yeah.

Track 4:

[10:07] I wasn't quite sure how it had all come to be. And so I just, I, I, I walked in to not timidly, but just like trying to get a read before I really started asserting myself. But I, but then I forget my filter only lasts for a little bit. And then it's like within an hour or two, I think it was fine.

Track 3:

[10:27] Oh, that's so cool to hear. Yeah.

Track 4:

[10:29] I forget to be nervous. And then I'm just myself for better or for worse.

Track 3:

[10:33] No, that's great. great so from there we go to LA and we go to the Fonda show which I gotta tell you that show like kicked all sorts of ass that was so good you guys played so long and such a varied like we didn't know going into it that the set list was going to be as varied as it was um you know we We knew that you guys had practiced a lot of songs, but it just, it was surreal. What was it like for you?

Track 4:

[11:06] Surreal.

Track 3:

[11:07] Surreal as well.

Track 4:

[11:08] I mean, we'd done all, we'd done the rehearsal in Portland and, you know, the team, you know, for musical building, but also for me, some team building, like who are these guys exactly? And like, and then we did some practice in LA on a soundstage before the Fonda as well. And I was nervous. It wasn't even like I was nervous. I was just unsure. I was really unsure what to expect. I now had practiced with them for like eight days, and I had watched so much YouTube of them live. But I hadn't been on stage to feel, like I wasn't sure what I was going to feel on stage, if that makes sense, like how it was actually going to feel to perform the music.

Track 4:

[11:48] And like rehearsal and performance are two different energies. Strategies, just wasn't sure what I was going to get from the five guys as far as all that went.

Track 4:

[11:56] And I also was really unsure what I was going to get from the crowd. It's like, I was like, yeah, I have eight days of practice with them. Like, I feel pretty good that they like my contribution. But now the question is, like, does anyone else like the contribution? Is it going to work?

Track 4:

[12:12] Will it be unfavorably compared? I had a lot a lot of that swirling in my head i was and it was uh yeah i wouldn't say nerves both under and overstates the situation it wasn't like i was shaking in my boots but it felt heavier than that it was like too heavy to be shaken in my boots but then steven did this really cool thing and maybe he could tell i was nervous i i will also say i don't think i was the only one with jitters i think they also hadn't played out in over a decade together so a lot of those questions maybe they're asking themselves as well um but steven rallied us really classic but and maybe like a little maybe it seemed pat to say it now but at the time it felt really good but he was just reminded us all that we practiced hard and it was going to be fun um and it's the strangest thing jd because as we walked on stage all of that tension left and that's really gifts that's been the hugest gift for me of playing in this band I got it on the first show and it's no fear it was just like this is fun these guys are fun the energy is fun and that is how it feels on stage to play with them I learned that night the reason the tension goes away is because it's about something.

Track 4:

[13:34] More important than And like, did you execute your part properly?

Track 3:

[13:37] Right.

Track 4:

[13:38] You know, it's like, are you in the right head and heart space? And they probably don't use these words for it. This is how I'm describing it. You know, to make the music matter, there has to be a feeling there. And they all excel at that. It turns out I had nothing to be worried about. Pure joy being on stage with those guys.

Track 3:

[13:54] Okay, I'm curious about your favorite songs to play. What are some that you had a lot of fun with?

Track 4:

[14:02] I mean, they're all so fun. And I'm not just saying that, I mean.

Track 3:

[14:06] No, that's cool.

Track 4:

[14:07] They're all pretty fun to play. Even when I'm just shaking a tambourine half of one chorus or something of a song, it's like, I can't believe I get to play the tambourine on this part. They didn't just invite me up. They're paying me to come up here and play this tambourine part.

Track 3:

[14:26] That's so cool.

Track 4:

[14:27] It's just like, what a dream gig.

Track 3:

[14:29] Yeah. I love how you did Trigger Cut, like how you did the sha-la-la-la-las in Trigger Cut.

Track 4:

[14:35] Oh, yeah. So cool. That's so fun. That's really fun. And that is a fun one to play. Like, obviously, like, anything that finds just me and Bob, like, in a tambourine party is fun. Like, any, you know, the more tambourines, the better. It's always good. It's always fun. That's just, there's never a night where I look up and see Bob playing tambourine and don't immediately get completely lifted.

Track 3:

[14:57] Oh, that's so cool.

Track 4:

[14:59] So anything where I'm doing that is fun. Working out something like Embassy Row was kind of fun because we, like, practiced the beginning part and, you know, then it rocks at the end. It's sort of like seeing those songs kind of work out in practice and then singing.

Track 2:

[15:13] Yeah, yeah, I get that. So what do you think? Should we get into the track, song 29?

Track 4:

[15:24] Let's do it. So it ranks 29 of 50?

Track 2:

[15:27] That's right, yeah. We'll be back on the other side with Rebecca Clay Cole. Hey, this is Bob Mastandovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown. 29!

Track 3:

[21:05] There it is, the sixth song from Bright in the Corners on the Top 50 Countdown, also the sixth song on the record. This week, we're talking about song 29, the fantastic, the jammy type Slowly. Rebecca, what is your relationship with this song?

Track 4:

[21:21] Oh, I love this song so much. I mean, it wasn't on my first wave of songs to study, even though I knew we were going to play it. But it wasn't like, you know, there are other songs I felt like I had to nail more. So this was towards the end. I said, OK, let me get into this type slowly jam. And putting on the hat of Stephen playing that piano part and like figuring out where he put his hands and why for that song on that recording was like. I feel like a little peek behind the curtain there to the mind of the man.

Track 3:

[22:02] Wow.

Track 4:

[22:03] Because I play the piano most. That's my primary instrument. And so thinking about how he was approaching the piano on that song was cool. And I scored every note out. There's a score that I've written of everything he does. Because everything he did was so cool. And I wanted to be sure to capture not all of it verbatim, just understanding where he was coming from with all of those parts. So by the time we played it live, I had that sort of intimate relationship with it where I had been in my headphones on an edible and just flying high and really getting into the, was that a 32nd note rest or a 16th note rest? Really too over-processed on that probably, but in a fun way for me because that's how my brain works. And so by the time we put it live and I got to sort of use some of that and throw some of that out, it just kind of became a song in the set I always liked to see. I always like to see Types Lully in the set.

Track 3:

[23:09] That's fantastic. I like to see it as well. Bright in the Corners is one of my favorites. So I'm glad to see it's represented a lot on this top 50 list. And there's definitely more to come from Bright in the Corners. What do you think in terms of this ranking do you think it's properly rated overrated underrated like you seemed surprised when you said 29 out of 50 a and I don't know what that what that surprise meant.

Track 4:

[23:39] Yeah, I guess I don't know either, because I don't know what's 50 to 30.

Track 3:

[23:46] Right.

Track 4:

[23:46] So that's one of the things. So I don't know what came behind it. I can probably guess half of what's ahead, at least. But I don't know. To me, I think of it as a live track.

Track 3:

[24:00] Oh, OK.

Track 4:

[24:01] A song that was built for live. And I don't know if it was. but it just takes it takes so much life on on the stage um that it's almost like one of those songs that was made to do that when.

Track 3:

[24:18] You guys got it prepared to go on the road did you know you were going to do the jams in it or was that sort of like organic on the road the.

Track 4:

[24:29] Jams are organic they had jammed that song before so it wasn't a surprise at all that they'd be jamming and And the song as it is on the record is a bit of a jam. I mean, I did count it out measure for measure for the purpose of my scholastic exercise, but I knew we weren't going to deliver that just like that on stage. If I had to get out the sheet music to make sure I could make sense of it, I mean, no, you know, it's not worth that. So I knew there would be jams and the jams changed. Changed you know it was it's the for me type slowly is the most me i get to be on stage with pavement oh wow because i'm not yeah well it's a jam and so and there's a lot of freedom in the jam for me on the piano because the part was free to write it was very free freely written kind of thing and in and out play when i want don't play when i want stop playing the piano and just shake something else for a while or play one note and whatever I do kind of seems to work I don't even think Stephen has me in his monitor so it's not like but in my mind maybe he does but in my mind it's like you know the guitars and me and then I'm and sometimes I'm with the rhythm I'm kind of I get to jump into everyone's show on that song like I'll be with Mark for a couple minutes.

Track 4:

[25:51] Then I'll jump over and watch Steve West and then it's like what's Bob doing and then oh yeah yeah, Stephen's doing something cool. Let me pop over. Let me get my attention back over to the guitar and see what's going on. And Spiral will come over and jam. So for me in the set, that's like my most, I'm not really thinking about it as a pavement song, monolithic and unchangeable. I think about it as like a pavement song in the now that's still being kind of designed.

Track 3:

[26:17] Oh, that's a really cool way to look at it. Live music is, there's a singer that I've heard say that a song isn't finished until you play it live. You know, like you've got it written and performed, but until you take it on the stage, it sort of hasn't fully gestated.

Track 4:

[26:38] I think that might be true. Yeah. A song like this might never gestate. It might never be done. It's just a grower.

Track 3:

[26:47] Yeah, that's a good way to think of it.

Track 4:

[26:49] You know, it's always going to evolve live. Like, I'm sure the next time we play it, there'll be something that's not. Everyone takes different positions. musicians and yeah and then sometimes steve west will think it's time to end type slowly, and it's not or sometimes we're like we could totally end it like why hasn't it ended or and sometimes i'm the one out there like i'm still playing and it's like oh crap we're already to the next verse and i'm still oh the clouds like it just is so loose like that i love it you could never do it the same way twice which is probably why i love it so much that's.

Track 3:

[27:23] Very pavement as well Wow. It seems very pavement. Yeah.

Track 4:

[27:27] On brand.

Track 3:

[27:28] Is there anything else you want to say about Type Slowly?

Track 4:

[27:35] Um, no, there's nothing I really want to say about Type Slowly. I was wondering if you were going to ask me about Slowly Typed.

Track 3:

[27:42] Oh, I didn't even know. I didn't.

Track 4:

[27:45] But you didn't. So no, we don't, we don't have to talk about Slowly Typed.

Track 3:

[27:48] Well, now that you've opened the door. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Track 4:

[27:52] I mean, my only thought about Slowly Typed is that it shows the way that the scaffold that song hangs on now into that live jam that it's played on, I think, is how it was meant to be. Or how it does its boast power. The Slowly Typed version is, not going to ever be a nine minute epic live jam okay maybe i mean maybe i don't know maybe i'll throw that challenge out for the next round of shows but yeah um so i just think that's sort of an interesting thing to think about like i actually looked when i was doing all my homework for this tour i thought okay let me go see like if there's any like live slowly typed nine minute jams i can find on YouTube. And I couldn't find any, only the type slowly jams.

Track 3:

[28:40] It's, it's wild how YouTube has changed things, right? Like, I mean, the fact that you can just go and like, look at these shows to, to do your notations and to do the things that you want to do very neat that you didn't have to sort of fly by the seat of your pants.

Track 4:

[28:54] I mean, it felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants. But no doubt it was helpful. Like, because you listen to something on record, and it's like okay that's on record a record that was recorded 30 years ago and this band has probably played it live 500 times since then so they don't remember their body memory of the song is probably not like the recording version it's like some live version somewhere that i need to go find and there were a couple other songs not type slowly where i was sort of playing it true to the record and it would be like don't do that i'm like but it's like exactly this is exactly the parts too much or it's you know and i'm like and then i realized it's just oh yeah right because it hasn't been there for 30 years. So it's good to go back and look at the live versions of things to just sort of watch, kind of like what you just said about how a song, it doesn't really go until it's performed for an audience. But if you've performed that song for 30 years, it might have traveled somewhat from the recorded version.

Track 3:

[29:51] Yeah, I would guess so, now that you've said it. It wasn't something I considered before, but now that you've said it, It's like, yeah, that seems pretty clear.

Track 4:

[30:02] Yeah, I found that to be on a lot of songs. So YouTube was a really great resource. I would just be like listening to something. I'm like, there's no way Bob played this live on the keyboard. But I know he played the keyboard. So then I'd go back and watch the live version and watch what he was doing on keyboard and split the difference between Stephen's part recorded and Bob's part live.

Track 3:

[30:21] Oh, okay.

Track 4:

[30:21] But use that YouTube as a, it was a great resource for me. And it still is. I learn a lot of songs in general. So it's usually a little goldmine of knowledge.

Track 3:

[30:30] Are you always are you always finding yourself noodling and learning stuff yes yeah yeah i can't.

Track 4:

[30:39] Really not think about it.

Track 3:

[30:41] Just listening to you talk so far it's like yeah you seem to have that very analytical you know sort of uh view of things right um like to to to do this which is yeah i think.

Track 4:

[30:55] I'm more analytical than a lot of uh musicians or at least my creative flow is in an analytical way I like math, I like charts I like spreadsheets, and that just really helps me get into my own flows of things even when I was trying to figure out I went over to a friend of mine's studio when I first started learning these pavement songs and I was just like help, I don't even know where to start, there's like maybe a hundred songs, I just didn't even I'm like how do I even and start it.

Track 3:

[31:29] Yeah.

Track 4:

[31:30] And he was like, make a spreadsheet. That's what you do. And I totally did that. I made a spreadsheet with the album, the song. Does it have piano? Does it have percussion? Does it need me to go find some kind of synthesizer sound? I don't know what. Just like I made a spreadsheet, and that's how I, yeah, I'm pretty analytical. Yes.

Track 3:

[31:50] That's a pavement first, I would think, a spreadsheet.

Track 4:

[31:55] Well, for the music, maybe. Maybe. Maybe there's... No, I bet there's got to be a set list spreadsheet.

Track 3:

[32:01] Oh, okay.

Track 4:

[32:03] That's a lot to keep track of. Yeah.

Track 3:

[32:05] Maybe not.

Track 4:

[32:05] Maybe Bob does it all from his heart and head. But maybe if I were him, I would... But then again, I'm the one that loves the spreadsheets.

Track 3:

[32:14] Right. Yeah. Well, Rebecca, it's been dynamite talking to you. You know, especially seeing as it's tough to... It's been tough to hear from you these last couple of years, like to read in magazines or stuff like that. I haven't, you know, I haven't seen a tremendous amount of pavement information with you included. So this is really special to me. I'm really thankful that you decided to stop by and do this.

Track 4:

[32:44] Yeah, thanks for asking. It's fun to talk about it because it's just like a really fun experience that I've gotten to have. And I'm like the luckiest music fan on earth, I think, in certain ways.

Track 3:

[32:54] Oh, that's a great way to wrap it. That is great. Thank you so much.

Track 4:

[32:59] Thank you. Good luck with the rest of the countdown.

Track 3:

[33:01] All right. Wash your hands. Wash your goddamn hands.

Track 2:

[33:05] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmists, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at Meeting Malcolmists dot com. Oh.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/meeting-malkmus-a-pavement-podcast/exclusive-content

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Devin Faraci joins jD today on the podcast. Beyond listening in on Devin's Pavement origin story, you'll hear him wax nostalgic about song 30.

Transcript:

Track 2:

[1:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.

Track 1:

[1:02] At 31, give it a day. What do you think, Scott from North Dakota?

This is a gem, and I love it so much. I love the whole EP.

This would have been something I did not discover until well after I knew all of Wowie Zowie, all of Bright in the Corners, and it wasn't something I easily could have. have it.

Track 2:

[1:27] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to the Countdown.

Track 3:

[1:34] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballads.

I then tabulated the results using using an abacus and 28 grams of the best weed you've ever smoked, along with some drifter named Larry.

How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that.

This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Devin from LA.

Devin, how the fuck are you? I'm doing pretty good. I'm doing pretty good. Really glad to be here.

Amazing to be on the World Wide Web talking about Pavement so many decades after I first started listening to them. Well, let's get right into that then.

Let's go back a few decades and get your Pavement Origins story.

You know, I have a lot of Pavement history. I started in around 92.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so Slanted and Enchanted.

And I'm pretty sure it was Summer Babe Winter Version that was the first song that I heard, I have to guess.

Track 3:

[2:50] And it was a weird time in my life I was a college student, I had been kicked out of college. Oh, shit. I had earned a 0.0 GPA.

And not for cool reasons, mind you.

I think that it was 1992, and my college had what they called a VAX computer system, which was the early internet.

And I was on the early internet all night playing multi-user dungeon games and did not go to school.

Track 3:

[3:24] So I got kicked out of college for playing video games. Really ahead of my time.

It's like big Gen Z energy, I feel like.

And I was living with my dad in Illinois, who was living in the suburbs, and it was the most miserable year of my life because the alternative rock world that I had been in back when I was living in New York City had exploded.

And I was stuck in the Chicago suburbs and I couldn't drive.

And all of these amazing things were happening and I was not part of any of it.

But there was a cool record store. And so I discovered Pavement and I have loved that band ever since.

And, um, yes, that's my original pavement experience trapped in the suburbs of Chicago, New York city kid trapped in the suburbs of Chicago, uh, watching the world explode into cool alternative rock shit all around me, but so, so far away.

Track 3:

[4:24] So what was it like when you walked into that record store? Was it the album cover that got you?

Had you heard of the band through like zines or anything like that?

Or was it just like a random purchase? I probably had heard it from a magazine, probably Alternative Press, if I had to guess back then. I read that shit religiously.

And I might have already heard the song, but I'll tell you, man, when I heard that album, it was like somebody had finally recorded music that was aimed directly at my particular personal brain.

Wow. You know, just sort of the discordant, weird lo-fi sound they had on that first record, especially back in the day.

But with melodic pop sensibilities, it was incredible to me.

It really was incredible.

And Malkmus' voice just really was, I mean, just got me, just nailed me.

Track 3:

[5:15] Yeah, it's very, I mean, they're very unique in a, in a world at the time where things were not yet starting to sound the same, but, and our guys were signing everybody out of Seattle.

They could, you know, this bright beacon of hope from Stockton, California, um, really shone a light for a lot of people.

I wish I could have been there at the time, but I didn't catch on until the late nineties.

So yeah no i was pretty happy to be there which means that i got to experience some pretty cool pavement stuff in real time um you know the greatest t-shirt i ever owned was a pavement t-shirt it had two fried eggs on the tits yes uh it's one of the great t-shirts of all time but i also have two really memorable i've seen pavement a few times but i have two very memorable pavement concert experiences all right share them uh so one of them was at the tibetan freedom Freedom concert in New York City.

And there were two stages. And I forget who was up against Pavement on the other stage at the time, but nobody came to see Pavement.

And so it was this big stage at Randall Island in New York City and Pavement playing.

And it was like me and 30 guys.

Track 3:

[6:30] Are you serious? There was nobody there. I got right to the front. Like it was incredible.

They were really playing to like the sparsest crowd you could imagine.

It was, I honestly forget who was up against them, but that was packed.

Um, and, and, and the pavement was, it was dead. It was just incredible.

Um, which I'm sure wasn't great for the band, but for me, uh, was a delight.

I mean, just an absolute delight, but the greatest pavement concert experience I've ever had.

Track 3:

[7:00] They did a secret show at CBGB, which is a very small venue and also disgusting and very historic.

And so I got tickets to this secret CBGB show, and I honestly forget what album this is, so I don't remember what they were playing.

But the big memory of the secret CBGB show is the band had been on for a minute.

And then Keanu Reeves entered CBGB wearing a tuxedo with a woman in a evening dress, evening gown of some kind, like they had just come from an award show or something. It looked like.

And every time the band finished a song, Keanu Reeves would yell, Freebird, which is something I know.

Track 3:

[7:52] Uh, for maybe the younger listeners don't realize that there was a period in rock music history where people would go to concerts and yell free bird at the bands in between every single song.

And I will tell you that shit did not fly with a pavement crowd.

Uh, the pavement crowd was not excited to hear this.

And so that was a very strange experience, but what it made it even stranger was years later reading an interview with the band.

And they talked about that night. And they talked about how Keanu Reeves had tried to come backstage and meet them. And they turned him away.

Because the other thing people have to remember is that in the 90s, Keanu Reeves before The Matrix was not cool.

He had started making a bunch of like really crummy movies and sort of for Gen X, Keanu Reeves sort of had crossed a boundary that we did not necessarily like.

And so he was not cool at the time.

That's why when he was cast in The Matrix, it was kind of a joke.

Like, you know, you couldn't believe that that guy was going to be in this movie.

So they didn't let him come backstage.

Track 3:

[8:54] And then they talked about, after the show, they were leaving the venue and they were walking somewhere and they walked past this very famous downtown restaurant, Veselka, which is like the heart of the village.

There's a documentary out about it right now, actually. But anyway, they were walking past Veselka and there by himself sitting in a window, sadly eating Ukrainian food, was Keanu Reeves.

And they felt terrible that they had turned him away from backstage.

Oh, that's a fantastic story.

Yeah. Jesus.

Keanu Reeves yelling Freebird. I can't believe it. It was unreal.

And a friend of mine, who's actually now a music executive, heckled Keanu at the show.

As Keanu was leaving CB, my friend yelled, Dogstar, love that band, which was Keanu's band at the time, his bad band at the time. So, yeah. Yeah.

So are there any records that you cleave to now, or do you go back, for nostalgia's sake, to Slanted?

Track 3:

[10:11] Man, you know, it's a great... I mean, I gotta say, for me, Crooked Rain.

Crooked Rain is the peak, I think. And I love every Pavement record.

But Crooked Rain is the one that I just find myself drawn to again and again and again and again.

Again um you know and that was the album you know where they started getting like videos on mtv which was a truly bizarre experience too uh you know when cut your hair debuted on 120 minutes and made its way into regular mtv programming uh was very strange because this was such an odd band uh for the time you know and and and crooked yeah crooked rain is i mean i love all of them Wowie zowie's amazing, bright in the corners.

But it's crooked rain.

Track 3:

[10:59] Yeah, I think so. I just went for a walk earlier this morning.

It's unseasonably warm here in Toronto.

And I went for a walk and I just had a hankering to listen to Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain.

So I threw it on and walked until it was over.

And I just forgot, even though I know deep in my bones that it's a great album, like I had forgot just how cohesive it is and how big it sounds.

And really it sounds completely different than slanted right yeah i know it's a total step forward but i think what's amazing you know so in the 90s i was a real diehard flannel guy you know i had my real deep opinions on selling out and for crooked rain they went much more rock oriented slanted than they had been on, on, uh, slanted.

And, um, but it worked like there was no sense of selling out.

Uh, it was more like a band fulfilling its promise.

Um, even though I love the lo-fi stuff, you know, uh, you know, Westing by Musket and Sexton. I love that. Like that, love that noise. Give it to me.

Uh, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, Crooked Rain, it just, it feels like a band blossoming into what they can be.

Track 3:

[12:18] Oh that's nice i like it yeah is there anything else you want to share about your pavement origins i mean i guess just that.

Track 3:

[12:33] Pavement is a really special band to me you know partially because of um, Where I was when I found them, you know, I was so trapped in the suburban hell that I just didn't understand and I was not part of, you know, this was the era when I had, um, like a blue undercut.

Like I had like that top knot thing going on the sides and back of my head shaved and my hair was dyed a little blue and I wore ripped jeans and flannels.

And when I was walking to work in the suburbs along the side of the road where they had no sidewalks, I had a car drive past me and throw a beer can at me and shout the F slur at me as they drove by.

So I'm not saying that I'm an oppressed person, but I'm saying that I was living in an environment that was not friendly to me and my kind of people.

Track 3:

[13:27] And I heard this band and it was like somebody talking directly to me.

And so as a result, it has always been just an important band to me.

And because I am still partially that Gen X, quote unquote, hardcore, never sell out kind of a guy, I love that Pavement never sold out.

I love that Pavement never ended up becoming some kind of a big, massive band that like the worst people you know got into. to.

Pavement has gotten more well-known and it has a great legacy, but it's closer to the way that the Velvet Underground used to be.

The Velvet Underground has sort of crossed over.

People know the Velvet Underground now, but there was a very long time where you could say to somebody that you love the Velvet Underground and if they got it, you knew they were a cool person that you were going to like.

Pavement has that right now.

If I tell somebody I love Pavement and they They actually know Pavement.

They don't just know two songs or something.

Track 3:

[14:35] Then I know, oh, that's a person who I can be friends with. That's a person who gets me. Because part of the deal is that Pavement...

It's not just this amazing music, but there's a thing I love about Pavement, which is that the kind of brain that I think it takes to really appreciate Pavement, because so many of the lyrics are close to nonsense, but not nonsense.

And it requires a brain that's willing to engage with that.

And I think it's sort of like really fun and smart at the same time that it can be incredibly dumb sometimes.

But, you know, that's, I think, the defining line for Pavement for me.

Those lyrics that, like, have silly things in them and have nonsensical things in them, but very often they add up to something that is emotionally true that you can really understand, even if you can't understand it as language necessarily.

And also every now and again drops in bizarre stuff that's like smart people stuff, you know?

You know, how many bands have songs about how the kids that made acid couldn't get laid?

I mean, like, you know, that's like an amazing thing to drop into the middle of a song out of nowhere.

So, you know, yeah, so that's my Pavement, yeah.

That's nice. I like it. Well, what do you say we take a quick break and come back to the other side and talk about song number 30?

Sounds good. All right, let's do that.

Track 2:

[16:01] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

And now on with a countdown.

Track 1:

[16:09] 30.

Track 3:

[19:08] Song number 30 on the countdown comes from Pavement's fifth and final album, Terror Twilight.

It's also the third song from this album to make the top 50 thus far.

At track 30, we have Spit on a Stranger.

What the hell do you make of this song, Devin?

Track 3:

[19:29] I'm really glad I got this song because I love this song.

And the thing about this song is that there's a real tension within the song that truly appeals to me, because I believe that musically and in the verses, this is the most romantic song that Pavement has ever recorded.

100%. Like some of these verses are things that you would say at a wedding.

Track 3:

[19:58] And then you get to the chorus and there's the you're a bitter stranger.

And it's obvious that it's about a breakup of some kind, but it has those that tinge of love in the verses.

And again, musically that I think make it really beautiful and really melancholic in a really incredible way.

The song, you know, you're a bitter stranger, but the song is not bitter.

Uh which i think is amazing and i just tender yeah i love the the the the tension within it i just it's it's so good because it's not an obvious tension like if you just listen to this song and don't pay attention to the lyrics it's just a beautiful lovely song that uh if you catch a couple of the verse lyrics you go that's really gorgeous you know um and then and then we listen to the whole thing there's like a lot more going on i i i adore this song yeah it's a it's a it's a standout on terror twilight for sure not just because it's a single it it just i don't know it just pops off that record um what's your relationship with the song do you remember hearing it for the first time or do you remember what that was like.

Track 3:

[21:10] I don't remember hearing it for the first time. I can't remember if this was a single before the album came out or not. I don't recall.

I believe it was. So I probably heard it as a single.

I'm sure I heard it on the radio or I bought the single before the album came out. But I don't really recall.

I remember when this came out and this album came out that this was a song that I fixated on pretty intensely at the time. This was kind of a track I kept going back to again and again and again and again.

And I just I just fell immediately in love with it.

It's funny, because now, with many years gone by, and the world having moved on and learning more about the making of this record.

Track 3:

[21:58] There's something beautiful about this being the opening track on their final record, because now I know behind the scenes, they were in the process of breaking up.

And so in some ways, this is a song about that process in some ways, you know, and that speaks to what the band was going through.

So I think that's a cool thing that has kind of grown on me over the years.

But like this is definitely a song that i have from just again from the very beginning, just latched on to i just think that some of those lyrics are just so beautiful and i just think that they're so lovely because i think that they're beautiful in a way uh.

Track 3:

[22:41] That feels relatable. It's not over the top.

So it's like, however you feel, whatever it takes, whenever it's real, whatever awaits, whatever you need, however so slight, whenever it's real, whenever it's right.

I mean, that's like a beautiful everyday idea of what love is, right?

It's a beautiful everyday piece of it. And then again, obviously, the choruses get a little different.

But I really just keyed into that because this is not a band that traditionally had a lot of songs that I would have felt super romantic about.

This is not a band that has a lot of songs that I would say, oh, I would love to play this for someone to let them know how I feel about them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a lot of those.

But this is one that does have- You're not going to play Debris Slide.

Track 3:

[23:31] Uh, but this is, this is one of those. And, and so, yeah, it's always been a very special song to me. What do you think about the production values on Terror Twilight and this song specifically?

When you think back to putting on Slanted and Enchanted and hearing that real lo-fi and that crushing riff and that drum riff as well on Summer Babe, and then flash forward like seven years, eight years, and you've got this song that is, like you said, melancholic and beautiful.

But so lush as well. Yeah, it's a very thick production. It's very crystal clear.

Track 3:

[24:14] I mean, I think it's really important for me, because of how I experience pavement, I experience them in real time.

The gap between 92 and 99 is enormous.

I mean, just sort of like what the world was like and what the music scene was like.

And so in 99 was the year of the second Woodstock.

That's right. And so we're looking at a world with all of this new metal and stuff, which, as a guy who had been a big...

Track 3:

[24:46] I was a metal and punk guy, you know, when I was younger.

And when grunge broke through and heavy rock hit the radio airwaves and MTV, I was like, we won.

We did it. Like, this is incredible. This is really great music.

And then that all turned into Nickelback and Linkin Park and stuff like that, which I hated.

And so by 99, I felt like we had lost the war.

A lot of what I was listening to was more electronic at that point.

You know, a lot of the bands I liked had sort of moved in that direction.

And this gorgeous, gentle sound felt like an evolution that I could roll with because the rest of the world had become so ugly in so many ways.

The rock music scene had become so gross.

And so as a result, this album sounding this way, I think, feels alternative to what was happening then.

Ah that's nice yeah i would i would say you're bang on the money because uh this was the time where pop music really reared its head you know with the spice girls and n-sync and backstreet boys and then on the flip side of the coin mainstream wise hip-hop was finally you know crushing through so rock really was left behind and the flag bearers for it were pretty trash Yeah.

Track 3:

[26:03] You know? So for this band to come out and release Terror of Twilight at the time that they did, you're so right.

It was maybe the last battle, but it was a battle nevertheless.

And also, I mean, again, I mean, for me, I mean, I'm going to be very personal here. You know, when I first heard Slanted and Enchanted, I was 19.

And, you know, seven years later, I'm heading to my late 20s and I'm about to be 30. And a lot changed.

Changes in that decade, you know, a lot changes.

And I had begun a process of growing and changing in a lot of different ways and that the band grew and changed worked for me.

I didn't need them to stay what they were, I think is the thing.

Track 3:

[26:51] Yeah, and it just leads to like, what would a sixth album have looked like?

I'm so pleased that, you know, despite two reunions, they haven't ventured down that path.

We're just left with these five great records and multiple EPs that stand the test of time, quite frankly. Yeah, no, I agree.

I have the controversial opinion that I'm really glad when bands don't do new records or I'm not going to say, I don't know how to say this in a way that I'm not going to get in trouble for, but like, it's not good that John Lennon died, but I'm glad the Beatles didn't get back together for Live Aid and then release some terrible late 80s record. Do you know what I mean?

Like, so I obviously it's horrible. Like, it's terrible that John Lennon was shot dead.

But I'm glad that today I don't have Kurt Cobain on Twitter because I'm afraid of what he would be saying.

And so as a result, sometimes it's good when things just end.

Track 3:

[27:54] And these days, people don't let things end. And the fact that the band Pavement has let Pavement be a thing that exists in this one decade.

Decade uh i mean it still exists because they do reunions but like it is of that decade they're not out here trying to do new songs for soundtracks or shit like that i really respect that and i like that me too i i couldn't agree with you more i think um there's a time and place element to it all like you said uh i discovered them when i was uh just approaching 30 probably just approaching So I got to go back and zip through it, but through my 30s.

And it was a similar type thing that you experienced because you know that the difference between 30 and 40 is enormous as well.

And so by the time I got to really experience Terror Twilight in a way that it was meant to be experienced after, you know, um, pouring through the other four records, it, it did live up to that for me.

Track 3:

[29:02] It's so funny. We're such old motherfuckers and the band's a bunch of old motherfuckers.

And this is honestly, especially the early records are young people music, but it still really holds up as an old guy.

I mean, like Crooked Rain is young people music. They're over there talking shit on other bands and stuff like that.

I mean, like, that's what you do when you're a young little snobby hipster.

Uh and here we are i'm 50 man and uh i still listen to the exact same tracks i listened to when i was 19 um so either i haven't grown at all in any acceptable or understandable way or perhaps this music is eternal and speaks to us at every stage of life oh i'll take the latter then.

Track 3:

[29:46] Yeah absolutely well devin it's been absolutely a thrill to have you on and you know to talk Walk through song number 30, Spit on a Stranger.

I'm wondering if you have anything you need to plug or you would like to plug.

Yeah, so I have a couple of podcasts that I do, and I have a Patreon where I do writing about pop culture stuff.

So you can go visit that, patreon.com slash cinema, sanga, S-A-N-G-H-A.

And you can go join and get access to the writing and get access to my numerous podcasts that happen over there where i am being told today my sound quality is pretty good i'm very happy to hear this because this is my number one concern in life is how my sound quality is so yeah it's great thanks so much thank you for having me i really appreciate it all right wash your goddamn hands thanks.

Track 2:

[30:40] For listening to meeting malchus a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you.

If you've got questions or concerns please shoot me an email JD at MeetingMalchemist.com.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/meeting-malkmus-a-pavement-podcast/exclusive-content

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Today on the show Scott joins jD to talk all about song number 31, don't worry we get to his origin story too!

Transcript:

Track 1

[1:02] At track 32, we have the song, Grave Architecture. Come on in. Sorry.

I was trying to stick that in, yeah. Oh, damn. I stepped on it.

That's okay. I should have prepared you.

What are your initial thoughts of Grave Architecture? This was a funny one that

when you said it to me, I have a long,

like I think I said before, I think the album that I really kind of really felt

like really grabbed me was was wowie zowie and um and yeah this song is like

the come on in like right away like oh yeah,

hey this is westy from the rock and roll.

Track 3

[1:41] Band pavement and you're listening to the countdown,

hey it's jd here back for another episode of

our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock

band pavement week over week

we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you

selected with your very own top 20 ballots i

then tabulated the results using an abacus and an old pair of socks you know

the kind that have toes in them how will your favorite song fare in the ranking

you will need to tune in to find out so there's that this week i'm joined by

pavement Pavement superfan, Scott from North Dakota.

Track 3

[2:19] Scott, how are you doing, motherfucker? I'm doing well, and you, sir?

I am excellent. I'm always excellent when I get to talk Pavement with somebody. Absolutely.

Track 3

[2:29] So tell me a little bit about yourself. So, you know, grew up in Minnesota,

a small town, but not that far from the Twin Cities.

And it's small towns. You don't things come slowly.

And I was I don't want to say a late adopter to pavement, but I graduated in

1996 from high school and I was all about the grunge movement.

You know, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, all of that. And I didn't know much about indie

rock at all or any indie anything until I went to college.

I had heard of Pavement when I was in high school. I had friends who were into

them, but I was so set on grunge that it's like, this is what we're going to listen to.

And I kind of wrote them off at first without hearing them because I for whatever

reason, I was like, oh, Pavement.

It's like going to be heavy, more industrial, you know, maybe like East German

KMFDM or, you know, something really that I might not enjoy.

Yeah. And then I was completely wrong about that.

A friend, a friend had, I was just riding with a friend and he had,

it was right when Brighton the Corners came out and we were just riding in his

car and I was like, what is this?

And he's like, this is pavement. And I was like, no.

Track 3

[3:46] And I was like, this is not what Pavement sounds like. And it literally from

there was just a beeline to the store to pick up everything I could get my hands on.

And, you know, it was, it was, would have been my last, you know,

two years of college, give or take.

Track 3

[4:01] And it was obviously Pavement was up there. And then right at that same time,

Built to Spill, Modest Mouse, all these, you know, other indie bands.

But Pavement was the one that I was just like, oh my God, where has this been my whole life? Oh, yeah.

Track 3

[4:45] On the internet so you just had to go and buy and

see what happened and i picked up

terror twilight which divisive record you know for some people for me absolutely

loved it there's so much same stuff in there that was just jangly and interesting

and different and fun but also i mean,

It's hard to explain, but I remember growing up as a kid, and radio was all we had.

And every song was about love, and it was just straight up hitting you over the head with it.

And here was something that you had to go decipher these lyrics,

and you could decipher them in a thousand different ways.

And if you got sick of the lyrics, you could just go and listen to the music itself.

Track 3

[5:35] And that was just something that I had been looking for forever.

So that would have been roughly like 1998, 99.

And I was living in Minneapolis. I got an internship and I got to see them on that last tour.

So the first time- In 99? Yeah. I got to, I saw them.

I remember this too, because they played two dates and I only could go to one

because the other date I was seeing Slater Kinney.

They were like back to back nights. So I was an intern at the time.

So, you know, I was working during the day and then as much as I can,

I'd go to First Avenue where the show was.

And I remember very little because it was, again, 1999.

Track 3

[6:17] But I remember they opened with Here, which I thought was just such an odd opener

because it's just such a chill, just laid back, you know, didn't come out with a big punch.

And it just set the tone.

And i i remember um what i remember about that gig is steven or malchmus had

uh like uh christmas lights but they weren't around his microphone stand and

that was that was just about it for,

stage presence and again this is the first time i've seen this band uh when

i'd only seen pictures before that i actually when i looked at them i didn't

know who the singer was and i thought i I thought, uh, I thought Mark was the singer.

Cause he stands in the center. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that he's gotta be

the singer and nope. You get there and I'm like, oh, okay.

Track 3

[7:08] And you know, I, I remember, you know, buying after that, you know,

the, the major league EP or the single with, with the additional ones.

And, you know, I got very into them and then they went away and I was like,

oh, well, this sucks, you know?

And they never were far from my playlist.

They were always there. And...

Track 3

[7:35] It was the first band that I really remember going, oh, I won't get to see these guys again.

And that was frustrating because I had felt like I had only gotten into them

a year or a year and a half before.

And yes, could I have gotten to them earlier? Sure. If I had been born in a

bigger town with better radio, with better, you know, a college town,

maybe where that could have been a lot, a lot more easily found.

But, uh, you know, growing up in rural Minnesota, you got AM radio,

you got farm reports, and then you got pop radio.

So it was very difficult to find those, but yeah, that's, that's kind of my

beginning with the band and, uh, just becoming infatuated with them.

Track 3

[8:16] So question yeah um oh shit it slipped my mind oh no what was the question oh

the question was so did that lead you to sm solo work or psoi or anything like

that yeah uh i was and and that's,

what we'll get to that uh we'll get to i have some linkage there but that's

okay um yeah i i I immediately went out and followed the solo work,

which again, the first record just blew me away.

And I listened to it on just repeat forever.

And I would say at least with the solo stuff, the first four albums, I just ate up.

Um, and after that, it wasn't because I thought the music was any different.

It's more that I just got older and I was listening to less new music.

And that's something I've been. Weird how that happens. I hate it though.

You know, I, I, I'm finally, I finally figured out that if, you know,

and it took me till here that if you keep listening to new music,

if you make time for it, it comes right back the enjoyment,

you know, and I've tried to set aside and, you know, just shut the TV off and

listen to music for an hour and it's really helped.

Track 3

[9:30] I do that every morning, every morning I get up around five 30 and I listened

to at least one record, um, you know, or a playlist or whatnot.

And that sort of sets the tone for my day.

Yeah. See it. And I'm, uh, I'm an accountant and a teacher by, by trade.

So I teach at a local community college, but I do taxes on the side and this

is busiest time of year for me,

but I can can pour through you know

six seven albums in a sitting you

know just having the music on while i work and just

pound away and pound away and work work work work work and the

music will still just kind of seep in and upon you

know second or third listenings all of a sudden i'm going back and i'm like i

gotta hear this song particularly again because there's something in

there and that that's really helped but long story

longer uh yeah those solo records were and and

whether it was you know technically him or him with the jicks

and i saw him i don't know

a couple times on those tours when he would come through

minneapolis and again loved it loved it

absolutely loved it um yeah and you know he did it in store uh at the electric

fetus in minneapolis a pretty famous record store for minneapolis and uh i remember

being intimidated because that just the stuff you read oh he's he's He's aloof.

He's kind of standoffish, you know, but he's, he's very intelligent.

Track 3

[10:55] And he played, I don't know, three or four songs off whatever record that was.

And then you sign up and you shake hands.

And he talked to me for like five

minutes and he couldn't have been more gracious with everyone in line.

And I was like, Oh, this is, this is great. You know, they say,

don't meet your heroes. And I'm like, well, no, this was, this was fantastic.

This was a really nice situation so yeah i've only ever had good experiences

but i'm like you very nervous because he's just so goddamn cool you know like

that's like you can't you can't plan for that intangible right the coolness factor you know.

Track 3

[11:35] It's it's difficult to relate to especially for

me i'm cool and underqualified oh yeah i didn't and

i'm just like like grew up southern california

you know playing tennis and you know doing doing all these things and you know

but also with skateboarding and then you know he was in bands like still when

he was in high school and stuff and it's all these stuff that you know i had

kids like that in high school too but i felt the same way i'm like ah these

guys are cool and i mean i I took piano lessons forever,

but I never translated that into,

you know, thinking about, oh, you could be in a band or you could do something.

And it was just like, nope, it's piano.

It's nerdy. It's never going to work. And it's like, eh, you know.

Ben Volz would argue with you. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's very true.

So what's your go-to record at this point? Is it Brighton still?

Like, because that was your first or.

No. Obviously it changes over the years. Uh, for, for the longest, for the longest time.

It was crooked rain, crooked rain, just because it is a masterpiece.

Yeah. It, it, and again, just out the, out the gate, just how,

just how the shambling start of that record and then, you know,

the, the, the cowbell kicks in and just.

Track 3

[12:51] Yeah i still

get goosebumps from that and for a long time that was it and

my least favorite not least favorite but i thought

wowie zowie for the longest time was there's

so many weird songs on there like you take

you take a song like half a canyon which i adore but.

Track 3

[13:11] It is weird it is out there and he's

just you know screaming and it's kind of nonsense and

i find myself now going to wowie

zowie um because it is so i

mean just starting off with we dance

which is again just this kind of slow burning kind

of almost ballady at points yes and

then just the rest of that record with you know grave

architecture and pueblo and and grounded and

uh you know those are just the ones off the top of my

head but again uh at&t and

it's top to bottom and it's a little bit

longer record which i like as well

um yeah when you've only got five lps to

sort of satiate yourself now there's lots of eps

too but yes five main lps along is

nice right right right which again

just to i always have liked that in in uh i'm a modest mouse fan as well not

that you know we need to get into that but their first modest mouse's first

two albums were like both 74 minutes and wow this is also back yeah this is

also back when like a cd would cost 15 to 18 dollars and.

Track 3

[14:26] I didn't have a lot of money so you know

i would buy these records that had so much music on it

um when i could and i just appreciated that

but that longer album uh and it really ebbs

and flows as well which which i love and it can go

from just something that's really simple and straightforward forward to something

that other bands it might end

up as a b-side or on the cutting room floor because it is

that different but absolutely love that

record now that's that's my go-to yeah yeah it's

a good one and it harkens back to those original three eps with some of the

more you know minute and a half uh like noise art sort of um gems that are on

there which which again um,

You know, getting into watery domestic and all of that, you know,

like the first time I heard like forklift, I'm like, what is this?

And you compare that to, you know.

Track 3

[15:27] Anything off the later stuff and it's a weird transition but

you know a lot of bands do that uh you know

they're they start off you know either fast and punky or

weird or they don't know what they're doing and the songs are like

a minute and a half but you can still sense the structure

there you can sense that this could be you know building to

something and like a lot of those

first i don't go back to a ton of the

stuff prior to slanted i think because

of that because i didn't find out about a lot of

these i didn't have access to them you know you couldn't download

them most of it was out of print uh you'd be

lucky if you could find it in a second hand bin um and

if you did hooray you know uh really hunting for records and uh yeah i don't

those are the ones i don't revisit a ton but there are also so many gems in

there as well that i'm like you really need to do give that give that a better

chance it's nice that it's on vinyl now too yes the westing compilation is on

vinyl that's a treat absolutely yeah.

Track 3

[16:30] Because those eps are especially sight tracks is tough to get your hands on

yeah yeah and i i i don't i don't buy as much vinyl as i used to but i used

to have a big problem of going on to ebay and just any seven inch i could get

my hands on you know know,

um, like anything that I could really, really knock down.

And, you know, if it's a reasonable price, I bought it because why not?

And I've, I've, I've tapered that a little bit, but I have, I don't know if

I'm missing like at least a U S single.

I'm not sure. I can't, I can't remember. I haven't looked in a while,

but, um, I, I grabbed as many of those as I could, uh, just because I couldn't

get them anywhere else. Right. Right.

Track 3

[17:15] Yeah. Did you, did you go to any of the reunion shows like in 2010 or in 2022?

Yep. Uh, in 2010, um, they played at a terrible venue in Minneapolis called

the Roy Wilkins auditorium, which is, um, it's an auditorium that was built,

I don't know, in the twenties or thirties.

It's, it's just concrete. The sound is miserable.

Track 3

[17:38] Um, it has a huge main floor, which gives

you room to spread out which was fun and they

opened with cut your hair which i was

like yep perfect perfect you know just get it

let not get it out of the way but so tongue-in-cheek that i i just loved it

and i got to see them there and then i went to pitchfork fest that year as well

uh to see them so i got to see them to twice there where was the pitchfork fest

in chicago yep Yep. Yep. In Chicago.

And I'd been to that a couple of times. Well, I lived in Minneapolis and I had

my, uh, I was, I was seeing someone whose brother, uh, lived,

he was going to grad school down there.

So we had a free place to stay, which makes, oh, look, yeah,

Chicago is reasonable now. Yeah.

We can drive down, we can take the L and, uh, just have a great time.

And you know, it's a festival, so you're far away.

Track 3

[18:33] But I, you know, had my stupid little digital camera

i still have videos somewhere you know

of that but no wow well it

was one of those things where it's like this is a band that was so important

to me at when they were a band

like in a two three year period and like there's

still stuff i'm listening to it's still always going back

to it but now they're coming back and again it

was it was a thing i'd never thought would

happen so it's like that the pixies were never going to happen just like

the replacements were were never going to happen and those happened so

i was yeah ecstatic never yeah

exactly exactly so what do you think we get to track 31 uh give it a spin and

come back on the other side and talk about track number 31 sounds like a plan

all right we'll be right back hey this is bob mistandovich from pavement uh thanks for listening.

Track 1

[19:27] And now on with a countdown down. 31...

Track 3

[22:09] Well, there it is, track 31, Give It a Day, the first track from the Pacific

Trim EP, also available on the

Sorted Sentinels edition of the Wowie Zowie reissue. This is a great song.

Track 3

[22:49] At 31 give it a day what do

you think scott from north dakota this is

a gem and i

love it so much i love the whole ep because

again this would have been this would

have been something i did not discover until you know

well after i knew all of wowie zowie

all of right in the corners and it wasn't something

i easily could uh you know have

it and they they

said we're not going to waste this time so they came together and

i mean the whole the whole ep itself less than 10

minutes but it is so much fun

the entire time and give it

a day itself like i i don't

i love lyrics i love knowing the lyrics and i

don't often put too much thought into that but when you go read i mean about

the people that are in the song you know referencing uh increase mather and

and john John Cotton and Cotton Mather and the Puritans.

And it's like, it's almost like was somebody reading a book about the Puritans

and the Salem Witch Trials and these people. And we're like, you know what?

We can actually, I just read something about this. We can throw it together.

Track 3

[24:09] And it's just top to bottom, just lick after lick after lick and the poppiness

and the looseness of it. And yes, I mean. Total pop jam.

Track 3

[24:20] Total pop jam. I mean. and the melody is infectious

and it it's one

of those two where it clocks in i got wikipedia i'm

looking at here but it clocks in at 237 and i'll find myself listening to just

that song for like 10 15 minutes in a row because it's it's and and every time

you know whether it's the chorus whether it's the very beginning where the lyrics

start right away whether it's the the last the last line of the song,

what did you do to him to make him think.

Track 3

[24:51] Which again, it's, it's kind of like the, I think it's at the end of crooked

rain, crooked rain, or maybe it's the other one where it just kind of trails off.

It's like almost a sentence, but not. Yeah. And, and.

Track 3

[25:04] Top to bottom, just fun. And again, on that EP with followed up with Gangsters

and Pranksters, which another gem that's just very, very fun.

Track 3

[25:15] They were in a fun mood, weren't they? yeah and

and it does and this is this is the kind of

thing too where it does it it brings me to some

of his early solo work that

there's just fun songs in it

and these are fun songs it's not you know there's a certain way i feel when

i hear grounded or you know we dance that it's almost like this not solemn but

i'm not happy when i'm listening to it like if if grounded comes on at a certain time, it cripples me.

And this will never cripple me. This will always pick me up. And I love that in a song.

You can just put it on and be happy. Do you remember Nike used to have this

app that you could have on your phone and you could program a power song.

So if you were running and you got to the near end, you could click right to

your power song and it would drive you through the finish line.

My power song happens to be Walking on Sunshine by Katrina and the Waves. Wow, that's amazing.

Because it's so bouncy and so fun. But I could easily see it being Give It a

Day because it's also very bouncy and fun.

Now, obviously, the lyrics are darker, but the way he's singing them,

the cadence of the way he's singing them, like the phrasing is just sublime.

Track 3

[26:41] And again, like you said, there is a ton of dark, you know, connotations in

there that unless like, again, I went and looked up Wikipedia cause I was like,

I know these names and I think they have something to do with this.

And then I read about it and I'm like, oh yeah, this is a, this is a,

I mean, this is a dark part of American history.

And it's just like, no, it's just, just, you know, eyes and eyes and teeth to

teeth, but mine are rotten underneath.

It's like just the wordsmithing. ah yeah i love it yeah and the funny thing

is he probably some of it like melodically.

Track 3

[27:19] Came up with it on the fly you know like uh like in that in that session like

i don't know how many days they they recorded but i don't think it was many

i thought they said it was four okay i mean even to come up with anything and

one and they did again i learned this reading but they the the, uh,

no more Kings, which is on that schoolhouse rock record.

Oh, they did at the same time, I guess, which that was news to me.

So, um, but that's, I mean, that they got that much done in that little time.

And yes, there were only three of them, you know, uh, spiral and,

and Mark weren't there, which, which again, kind of leans me into his solo work a little bit.

Cause there are things that, you know, you look at Jenny and the S dog,

which is, you know, just a gem.

You know, it tells this story and same thing here.

We got this really light and poppy and just repetitive, like a song that you

can repeat really quickly and easily.

But if you dig into it, it's like, oh no.

Track 3

[28:22] So yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. 110%.

Is there anything else about the song that you want to discuss? Yes.

I think it's, I think it's interesting that there's only one chorus.

Yeah. It's, it's just in the middle and it's just, it's repeated and,

and how he does it and how he staggers that I've always loved,

you know, cause it's, it's like, it's all, it's each one is slightly different.

Yeah. And the last one just kind of fades out and it's like,

could we have added another section to that? And would that have added or taken away from the song?

Cause I, I, I'm not a huge short song person because I like,

I get to the end and I'm like, I got to hear that again. I got to hear it again.

Track 3

[29:11] But if you give me something that's 12 or 15 minutes, sometimes I can,

I can just kind of get lost in it.

Right you know certain things you know like old mogwai

and you know old old other stuff that is

a huge just really dense chunk

of material that i can't see trimming down but

if you added to this would it take away from it as well

i think i don't know but the one thing i can i

can venture a guess on is if it

had another 45 seconds this would be

like a single like a like i i don't know

if it would have been a smash hit single but to me it's got single

written all over it it's it's so catchy it's so

goddamn catchy yeah yeah and again

so that's this uh that you said this is 31 31 so is it properly rated in your

book or should it be higher rated should be lower rated it it's it's tough it

i always find that tough with with any band ranking them when you look at eps and you you know,

maybe split singles because it's, it's not an album release.

And this is, I mean, someone quoted that, Oh, it's right here.

It isn't much more of a, than a throwaway, but an extremely enjoyable one.

Track 3

[30:26] And yeah, I think, I think where it is, it's, I don't think it's overachieving.

I think it's really close.

I don't know if, I don't think it would make my top

20 just because i was so ingrained on

the lps for so long and i i mean i didn't

even have an actual copy of this until uh the

the expanded edition of wowie zowie came out um

i had heard it plenty of times but i never had owned a copy so i didn't have

the repetition with it like i did everything else so i think it's pretty close

i think for it to for it to be a two minute and 37 second song that is just

enjoyable front to back. No, all killer, no filler.

I think it's pretty close to where it should be. Nice.

Well, that's what I've got for you. I really want to thank you so much,

Scott, from North Dakota. Yeah. Do you have anything you want to plug at all? Not really.

Track 3

[31:22] I just did a music enjoyer that, you know, I'm so happy that these guys did

another reunion tour as well, which now that I had, well, I had time and a little

bit of money, so I got to see them three more times on this tour, which.

Oh, brilliant. Just, yeah, I got to see him in St. Paul and then I just went

to Chicago for two shows.

And again, what, what amazed me about those shows too, is the,

you know, the first tour they went through the set list, I guess, didn't move that much.

And about the only song I didn't get to hear that I wanted to three nights in

a row, they didn't play frontwards and I was dying to hear frontwards.

They played it the night before and the night after. character um but

night to night to night i think the

set switched because huge sets too

they're playing three and a half hours yeah and i think

the songs changed almost 50 percent night to night to night which if i'm gonna

do themself oh my god if i'm gonna go three nights in a row and i'm gonna get

you know sure i'm gonna get maybe cut your hair all three nights which is fine

it's not my favorite song but you know i got pueblo i got grounded twice i got uh folk jam which

i love folk jam just such a weird funky little song and i get the hex yes we

got the hex the fuck out of that right oh my god and that's that's the thing like i used to think.

Track 3

[32:45] Finn was my favorite closing song and going back and listening to the hex with

the guitar solos like i love finn because i love how it fades out and just keeps

fading and fading and i just keep

turning up the volume until it's absolutely gone.

And the hex is just this beast of a sprawling thing and just do,

do, do, do, do, do, do. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Love that. So, um, and the, the last night I.

Track 3

[33:16] I treated myself. Uh, I literally was orchestra pit front row center.

Oh, I was like, I, I'm a single guy.

I don't have anything, you know, outside of, you know, I don't,

I don't have kids or anything to spend money on except myself.

So I can be, be a little bit, uh, no, no, no, whatever, but absolutely worth it.

Uh, just being right up front and hope, hopefully whatever these guys keep doing,

they keep doing it. but they seem to be enjoying it.

They're obviously due for a break and to get back to, you know,

Preston school industry and Malcolm's solo stuff and whatever the other,

and, you know, and the Stanovich doing horse stuff.

Track 3

[33:57] You know, they, they have other interests, but that they've been able to do

this for now, you know, two years.

Yeah. That's fantastic. Dan, I couldn't be happier with it.

If I had, if I was a man of unlimited means, I'd be going to South America for

sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep.

I mean, luck, luckily for me, it happened during its, well, um,

it was in Chicago. And again, I teach, I get two personal days a year.

I used them both in September because of course I'm not going to miss pavement.

So for the rest of the year, I had no personal days. I'm fine with that.

Absolutely fine with that. No problem at all. You, you, you did,

you did well and you did well today too.

I really want to thank you so much. Yeah, this was awesome.

So take good care of yourself and make sure to wash your goddamn hands.

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On this episode of the Pavement Top 50, jD has a lovely conversation with Zac from Amhearst about his Pavement Origin Story and song number 32

Transcript:

[1:02] Bob, what do you think about Transport as Arranged? Jamie.

I just think that, I think Transport as Arranged, when the record was made in

Kernersville, North Carolina with Mitch Easter,

was just kind of viewed and the feel around it was that, okay,

that's another song that definitely should be on the record.

But isn't the kind of song that it you know maybe should be a single or something

like that it was just it was just a song that was like really solid and good

hey this is westy from the rock and.

Track 3

[1:41] Roll band pavement and you're listening to the countdown hey it's jd here back

for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band pavement

week over week we're we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks

that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and gluten.

Just joking, there's absolutely no gluten. Zero.

How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune

in to find out. So there's that.

This week, I'm joined by pavement superfan man, Zach from Amherst.

Dude, how the fuck are you?

Track 3

[2:21] I'm okay. How are you? I'm great. Thanks for asking.

It's good to be here with you. No, it's great to be here.

Yeah, I'm excited to be a part of this. Well, let's not dilly-dally.

Let's get right to it and go to your pavement origin story.

Yeah, I've listened to a few and sometimes they have really good stories,

but But mine's like, I think I was home from break from college or something.

And, uh, my brother and sister were like playing a mixed tape of things and,

and, uh, cut your hair came on and, uh, yeah.

And, um, and it was apparently it was being played on their radio station all the time.

So, uh, you know, and so at the time we would just constantly make copies of

whatever. So I had like crooked rain, uh, just sort of stuck in my car forever and just wore it out.

Track 3

[3:16] Um, but you know, it was kind of in the mix and then it was really more,

uh, wowies, always when it kind of took off, um, for me, um,

that was the first tour I saw them like that was, uh, you know,

but, um, so you got to experience it in real time.

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Not quite slanted. And so I'm not,

I'm not that. No, but, but wowies alley. That's, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah.

Um, so, so, um, on that tour, when you went to that tour, what, what were you thinking?

Track 3

[3:48] Well, I, so I, you know, I was, I was just obsessed with going to shows and seeing bands.

Um, and, uh, I was pretty psyched to get a ticket from Ohio originally.

Okay. And, uh, so I was pretty psyched to get a ticket in Cleveland,

which was still like two hours away from where I lived.

Um, and I was taking my little sister and, uh, yeah, it was just,

we were really excited. My dad even went along because he was worried about

taking my, I don't know, 14-year-old sister to the big city.

So yeah, I got to see them with Come and Dirty 3 in the Algorra Theater or Algorra

Ballroom, one of those in Cleveland.

Track 3

[4:34] But yeah, I just listened to Pavement nonstop

at at the time and um yes yeah

just it's like one of those like that's how

i always picture them they're just that's that night um and

i've seen them plenty of times since but uh yeah what

other shows have you seen uh so i you know i saw that one and then like that

summer i saw him at lollapalooza um it was before the infamous west virginia

mud fight um but But it was like when they came on right after Sinead O'Connor,

she was still on the tour at the time.

And then I saw them like, you know, so what was after that? Like Bright in the

Corners. I saw him a couple times on that tour.

Dude. Yeah. And then I saw him.

Track 3

[5:22] There's like one or two other times in there. And then I, like,

I remember that I did the one that really sticks out to me.

That was, uh, I saw their last North American show before they,

well, when they sort of, we thought they split up the first time. Right.

Um, for terror twilight in Cincinnati, Ohio at Bogart's.

Yeah. So yeah, I saw that. And then we thought, Oh, is this the end?

And you know, and then it was like maybe a couple of weeks later,

he did that infamous show somewhere in England where he's like,

Yeah, the Burstyn Academy. Yeah, he had handcuffs and everything.

So I saw him right before all that. And then I've seen him, like I saw him twice

on their first reunion tour.

And then I saw him once, like the year before last.

And I haven't been able to make any of the others since, but yeah.

So I've seen him a few times. Oh, yeah, you've seen him a lot.

That's great. And different eras as well.

Yeah, yeah. Very cool. My first time was the first reunion, right?

So that was my first time seeing them. Well, their reunion shows were like,

they're just so tight and so together.

Track 3

[6:28] Some of the early shows, they were sort of a mess. Like, I remember once watching

Stephen kicking Steve West off the kit and to show him how the part was supposed to be played.

What? Because they kept starting the song, and he kept screwing it up.

So he's like, no, no, no, no. And he went back there, and he played the part.

And then he went back behind his mic and got his guitar. And then I guess Steve played it.

The right way holy shit i've never

heard that story yeah that was uh in

columbus ohio that i think that was a brighton the corners tour i think yeah

damn so what are your what are your go-to uh tracks these days go-to records

rather so it always kind of like changes but i i tend to

be like between crooked rain and wowie zowie back and forth um i just uh like

i crooked rain is like a perfect album like perfectly see well i think pavement

secret is that they sequence every album perfectly.

Track 3

[7:33] Sometimes the songs, like sometimes there's weird stuff in between and sometimes

the songs are hits, but like, it's just perfectly sequenced.

And Crooked Rain is just a perfect record.

I think Wowie Zowie is just like bizarre and all over the place,

but still like well sequenced.

And then the only, my only issue with Wowie Zowie is that I think it finishes

with like three or four closers.

So it's like you hit one of those like last three or four tracks and you're

like, oh yeah, that was great.

Oh here's you know well that's a great way to close and then they have another so yeah.

Track 3

[8:07] That's awesome was there anything else you want to share about your pavement origin story,

oh um i don't like i just think you know this was like pavement was a band that

like like sort of binded my brother and sister and i together um we just uh

that's sort of weird sets of humor summer they're sort of strange like sports

fans um we all have like weird interactions,

with them here and there that we just kind of um i

don't know we're all awkward socially awkward and so like it so

you know i don't know we just kind of like um this is

oddball group that just always spoke to all of us and

sort of held us all together that's really cool that

you're into it with your brother and sister are they

both younger than you or yeah they are

yeah my brother's like a year and a half younger my sister's

like uh five five and a half years younger so you got to show them the way well

they i mean like i said they introduced me at first but then um this was a band

we kind of all like became obsessed with kind of together um so yeah that was

fun yeah Yeah, that's a lot of fun. Cool.

Well, shall we take a quick break and come back and talk about track number 32?

That sounds great. All right. Well, we'll do that. We'll see you on the other side.

Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

Track 1

[9:33] And now on with a countdown. 32.

Track 3

[13:53] Song number 32 on the countdown comes from Pavement's masterpiece,

well, one of them, Wowie Zowie.

Track 3

[14:37] At track 32 we have the song grave architecture come on in yeah sorry let's

try to stick that in yeah oh damn i stepped on it that's okay i I should have prepared you.

What are your initial thoughts of grave architecture? This was a funny one that,

that when you said it to me, I have a long, like, I think I said before,

I think the album that I really kind of really felt like really grabbed me was, was wow.

And yeah, this song is like the come on in like right away. Like, Oh yeah.

Humanity. So it always sticks with me that way. Yeah. Yeah.

It's always very cool when you can bring something cool into school right yeah,

well and actually um i i didn't mention this before but i'm actually a fourth

grade teacher ah and periodically i'll have pavement playing when the kids come

in but um like what's this i'm like don't worry about it's pavement,

um but i guess back to the song uh so it's

it's kind of that um it's kind of like i

always felt the song was kind of jazzy kind of like the.

Track 3

[15:48] Uh five minus four equals unity from

crooked rain like it has a bit of that you know

you kind of like groove to it um and then almost from the beginning he's going

you know saying grave architecture and that whole like the jerky uh sort of

segmented way um mouth like uh sort of phrases things and songs especially when

he's He's live and he's playing around with it.

You know, that's always like, that's how I sing half the songs I sing along to.

So I just, that one always, that always touched me. But yeah,

I don't know. I just love the song. It just grooves.

Like, yeah, you can just kind of sway back and forth and just kind of take it in.

Track 3

[16:34] Yeah. And then I thought a lot about what it meant.

And a lot of these songs, I kind of put my own. I'm sure this is not what they think.

But I always think of when I hear this grave architecture and walk the marble

malls, I think of the monuments and the buildings in our world that were built

by the, say, super rich in their name and are sort of left there as their monument.

And the rest of us sad folk don't have anything like that.

And so, they sort of left their imprint everywhere.

And so, you walk through it and it's imposing everywhere.

And they're almost like graves, literally, only to maybe their money, to their wealth.

Um you know he even says like

stiff the crypt so i'm like already it's like still graves

are in my head um yeah there's

just a bunch of like little things like that in the song um

that i really appreciate yeah little breadcrumbs right

yeah yeah yeah yeah because nothing is ever straightforward with that sound

oh no no and that's i think it's probably why we all love them i think so too

yeah you have to do a little bit of digging a little bit of investigative work

um not the first song I don't think it's a song that he mentions architecture either,

which is interesting.

Yeah. Oh, what was that? Oh, it was that, I'm terrible at song names.

You're just going to have to name it. Oh, shit.

Track 3

[18:02] I thought I'd written it down, but I guess I hadn't. I'm so bad at song names.

With an itch they cannot scratch.

Track 3

[18:11] God, what song is it? Is it The Hex? Oh, yeah.

When I was trying to research a little bit, I read that same line.

I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right.

But yeah, he mentions art throughout, art and architecture and all these sorts of things.

He's married to an artist.

It's a huge piece of him or part of him.

And then I think the history, I believe he was like, was he like a history major

at Virginia or something?

I'm not sure. Okay. Uncool and underqualified to the bitter end.

No, that's all right. Half the stuff, like I said, talk out my ass still.

Track 3

[18:52] But, you know, but then there's like later there's lines, you know,

you know, it's like, you know, found on shady ground.

And I sort of, that's reminding me of hollowed ground and sort of like as opposed.

Like there's a little bit of critique in here.

You know, I always hear her too. There's like, um, and needs the talent to breathe.

Um, I always said that I still sing it this way as breed needs the talent to

breathe, which I'm sure it was breathed, but I also know that sometimes Malcolm

S plays with words that way.

And so I always just think like, oh yeah. Okay. So you could breed,

there's more of you pass on your wealth when you're not building,

you know, or whatever it is. Oh, I like that. Yeah.

So yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was fun to, to be able to kind of revisit a song

that actually does, I have thought about and have loved for a long time.

Yeah, I always get worried when I do these that, you know, somebody's going

to get matched up with a song that they just don't vibe or resonate with.

But that's so cool to think that you took this one, you know,

and talked about it in class.

Yeah, I won't tell you how old I am, But yeah, when I was in college, sure.

Track 3

[20:11] And yeah, I remember my girlfriend at the time was just like,

I don't know how he knows all this stuff.

And I'm talking about Sonic Youth and Velvet Underground and trying to like make it all connect.

And somehow I thought Pavement was important. I mean, they are in retrospect,

they're super important in all this.

But at the time, they probably, I mean, they could have not been important. They just were. Yeah.

Well, they're important to a lot of us. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So where do you think this song lands on the countdown? It comes in at 32.

Is it properly rated? Is it overrated? Is it underrated? What do you think?

I mean, you know, I think somewhere in the middle makes sense.

Because I think once you start naming other songs, you're like,

oh, yeah, I like that one better.

So I think somewhere here in the middle makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah, it seems about right to me. Honestly, I have to confess, I did not submit a list.

Well, that's fine. I know, I got really busy, and so I felt bad.

And also, if I rated them, if I ranked them, I would just change my mind the next day.

Ah, I think so, too. So I think 32 just sounds great.

Track 3

[21:28] Yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to mention about grave architecture?

Texture any memorable live performances of it or i mean you know i.

Track 3

[21:40] Honestly, I go back to that first show. I remember these kids made the band t-shirts.

They ironed on pavement.

They were wearing homemade t-shirts.

Every song in that set was just perfectly placed. Grave Architecture had its spot.

I remember just even fans were out. We were all shouting out what we thought would come next.

It just all made sense. And Grave Architecture is just like,

I just think it fits perfectly on Wowie Zowie.

If there's one thing, like, I know it's all over the place, but there's a few

tracks that really tie it together.

And I think Grave Architecture is like, and I think it's right in the middle

of the album, if I remember correctly.

And so it's just, it just fits and it just works.

Um i think even when i look at the the image

of the album cover like just something screams to me like grave like this whole

album is grave architecture i think in a lot of ways even if it's not maybe

my favorite or the best song in the album it just it just is the album it is

wowie zowie interesting yeah i notice over your over your left shoulder you've got that,

wowie zowie oh and you've got the bright in the corners and crooked rain as

well yeah and i've got to slant it over there i only have like four the steve

king the guy who did the painting yeah um he did like like recently well he

started selling things on ebay and so i was able to.

Track 3

[23:08] Uh score like a set of four of these um like

they're great and it was like super reasonable he even

like people kept outbidding me he's like don't worry i'll make

it work and so he made sure that i got these

four paintings um and then they even put out

an art book of all of his stuff recently yeah it's just low

I don't know if you've seen it you probably have like it's just loaded with

like a bunch of um pavement artwork um a

bunch of those um have you ever seen the they made I

think it was for Brighton the Corners they made like these signs that

stand up freestanding signs and it's painted in

his style like he's done it um and they were like yeah they were sent out to

different record stores around the country as part of the promotion for Brighton

the Corners and um there's a few people that still have them they're like every

once in a while you see one online but yeah his paintings are great they're like super affordable,

yeah so yeah,

wowie zowie got me into his art so yeah yeah I love it I think it's great.

Track 3

[24:11] Well, speaking of great, it's been great talking to you today and I really appreciate

your time and I really appreciate you doing this.

It's a lot of heavy lifting on your end. For me, it's like a vacation,

like I'm used to doing these alone.

So to have somebody to bounce things off of, somebody as passionate as yourself,

that's a lot of fun. So thank you very much.

Oh, yeah. Thanks, J.D. Thanks for having me. Do you have anything that you need or want to plug?

Man i wish i did i used to blog a lot like i used to have a blog where i actually

i was breaking down each pavement song and i only got like 30 or 40 you're like way better,

at this than i am and then i started doing a blog that was called um uh well

it was the original title was building coalitions through beer and pavement

now it's just called beer and pavement um but i don't i haven't updated it in

forever but some people might know it some people might I might not care,

but that's it. I don't have time.

I have kids and I teach, so I don't have time. Yeah. You're busy as hell.

Track 3

[25:16] Well, once again, thanks so much. And, uh, we'll talk to you on the flip side.

All right. Thank you. And wash your goddamn hands.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/meeting-malkmus-a-pavement-podcast/exclusive-content

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This is so fucking cool. Bob Nastanovich joins me this week to talk about a whack of shit including song 33!!!!

Transcript:

1:00] Loretta Scars. Alex from Portland, how are you feeling about Loretta Scars?

It's a great song. I've got all kinds of thoughts on it, but it's on Flannid

and Enchanted, which is a great album. it's,

Slanted and Enchanted is the least varied album in my opinion like,

most of the songs on it are kind of of one vibe and this is definitely no exception

I think it's a great vibe I enjoy it Hey this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band.

Track 3

[1:40] Pavement and you're listening to The Countdown Hey it's It's JD here back for

another episode of our top 50 countdown for Seminole indie rock band Pavement.

Week over week we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that

you selected with your very own top 20 ballads.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus, a bicycle pump,

lotion, and some biscuits for Kevin, my homemade from uni.

How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out.

So there's that. This week we're joined by

pavement superstar bob fucking nastanovich

bob what is up no

okay cool and you're aren't you a toronto person

sure am yeah how are things

there bright blue sunny skies today

about five degrees celsius so that's

like spring weather for us especially yeah that's nice

yeah we've got I don't

mean to show you up Jamie but it's 63

degrees Fahrenheit here with a light breeze and a bright sunshine oh man here

in Paris Tennessee you know like a typical winter day here is kind of gray and

44 but it's especially nice.

Track 3

[3:03] Today which is pretty awesome that sounds about right

that sounds like good you know good walking weather

so yeah how are you doing all right with this

project so far so good i'm like

like people are lining up to do it uh like

i'm caught up through march uh i've

got to do some interviews this week with people so

basically people seem to be like i

was like i don't know how people respond to a top 50 that

they have to listen to every week but i

don't know my numbers are good and um like good

for me you know yeah they'll get into it yeah i

think so and like just a little bit of water cooler debate right

what's that bud just a little

bit of water cooler debate yeah exactly you

know like what if what are you fucking thinking greenlanders like

greenlander was 46 six and

you know people were really pleased that

it made the top 50 but then there's another cohort that are like that's crazy

it should be at least in the top 30 you know or whatever so no that is so weird

i mean i don't um i do know people that love greenlander and i um ineffectively insisted.

Track 3

[4:18] On trying to get

it played live in iceland and that would have been cool yeah and um he we sound

checked it and it sounded just fine for about 70 seconds and malchus was.

Track 3

[4:43] Like i don't want to do that one you know and then um with him you know his attitude was so.

Track 3

[4:53] Sterling in 2022 and 2023 that um you don't and he was willing to play so many,

different songs because in the past like specifically in 2010 um i just think

it's uh i mean i remember his attitude back then was sort of uh.

Track 3

[5:18] It's going back to a more juvenile style of songwriting for him, which is more direct,

but I guess maybe it kind of reminded him of certain aspects of his life.

I mean, especially the earlier stuff, pre-Steve West, seems to give him a certain

amount of actual PTSD, which is a word I never use.

Track 3

[5:48] Self-reference um just because of um

the stress caused by gary like

i sat next to him when we watched the screening of gary's documentary and

um it he did

not i mean it's a great documentary have you seen it

i did yeah it's a great documentary and

i don't think they really could have done a better job and um

i mean i would have been wildly pleased

with it i know gary was um so cool

that he got to see it before he passed at least right i

can't i can't believe he lived that long i mean no

way you know i mean i mean for

him to make it to 70 um should give us all belief that we can do it too um but

he comes from really supremely great genes in terms of longevity his parents

lived well into their 90s and uh for some reason despite.

Track 3

[6:49] Every possible attempt without actually attempting suicide he basically tried

to shorten his life um man i

mean he was just what was it like when you first met him bob what was that

situation exactly like every other time i met

him um he uh

i mean at first he was kind of suspicious of me because he i mean you know very

briefly he was suspicious of me because he thought that i was like a friend

of malchmas's who could probably drum and was there to replace him so So for the first,

until a day or two in, we practiced in his parents'

house the first time we went on tour in 1990.

And when I say practice, I think we only had 12 songs and we only played six or seven shows, I think.

And when he realized that I couldn't play drums, he...

He relaxed a little bit. I mean, I think he realized that I was there to,

like, kind of carry gear and make things happen and drive and then...

You do more than that, dude. You do. I mean, back then, I actually did very

little. There's this je ne sais quoi that you bring.

Well, yeah. I mean, I developed my role over the years.

Track 3

[8:09] It's hard for me to really accept my overall importance. But back then,

there were some shows, you know, shows back then were 45 minutes or whatever.

And there were some shows where if he was on, I really didn't have to do a thing

but sort of stand there. I mean, it was, it was strange.

I mean, there was a few, there's like, there were times where I would actually be like, um,

pretty embarrassed because people in the audience must've thought,

you know, why does the, why does the guy who doesn't do anything have to stand on the stage?

And um and then also after the first time we toured europe in 92 and it was

we played like maybe 28 shows in 31 days or something and we we finished in

belgium somewhere and remco,

was doing our sound for the first time that far back he goes i didn't realize that He goes back.

The very first night we met him was about five o'clock on the day that we opened

for My Buddy Valentine and Super Chunk at the Old Ritz in New York. What a lineup.

Track 3

[9:27] Yeah. And he, uh, we played for 25 minutes and we played seven songs and, but whatever.

So we met Remco outside the old Ritz. Um, we were on a, um.

Track 3

[9:46] On a label called Big Cat, which was run by this rather scurrilous fellow named

Abbo, Stephen Abbott, who was in a band called UKDK.

And as it turned out, he was actually kind of a thief, but he knew Remco because

Remco had worked with the band Copshoot Cop.

And so he kind

of figured that this young Dutch kid should do sound for us because we needed

a sound man because we would turn up in a lot of places and we'd be so disheveled

and disorganized and unprofessional that local sound staffs would be like,

who are these assholes?

You know what i mean like back then in the 90s if you didn't sort of show up.

Track 3

[10:41] I mean if you showed up at least in the manner that

pavement did a lot of these people you know you

were really at the mercy of

people um who

you know hypothetically were

into sound garden started and if you

didn't sound like them then you could

fuck right off um and if you didn't bring

that some level of professionalism or panache um then you could really get the

shaft because people would just be like really annoyed that they had to work

with you and that's and and that's really what it's like when you have to depend

on the house unless you've got one of of those rare situations where they give a crap.

Right. So from that point on, you guys were on the road with Remco.

Yeah, pretty much.

Ninety seven percent of the time, like in 2010, like those one off things in

North America, we wouldn't fly them over.

Bob Weston did set them sound for us a few times.

Now we've got this guy named Aaron Mullen.

Track 3

[11:54] Who did a few shows this year. I mean, it's just if it makes no sense.

Financially for Remco to come over for a short stint. I mean,

obviously doing sound for pavements, not rocket science,

but Remco was proved his effectiveness generally at festivals.

Festivals um he's pretty

passionate about making sure the bands he works for

sound good because it's big time

ego gratification for him um if

like if people go around and say you guys sounded really great you know you

know and so he's he's very competitive in that regard which worked in our favor

yeah sure did you guys sounded great at the festival i went to the Primavera in Porto.

That was a fantastic show.

Yeah. I'm happy that I see Barcelona didn't sound very good.

Um, cause Remco didn't come to the practices, um, had trouble getting his visa.

So he was completely unprepared for Barcelona.

He didn't really even have Rebecca turned up.

Track 3

[13:08] And then a lot of the stuff that I'd learned because she's in the band now,

um, Which I hadn't done before, weren't even turned on in Barcelona.

And then in Porto, I'm not sure if you're aware of it,

but I showed up for sound check and the bright blue case that had all of my

bits and bobs of percussion,

some of which I'd had since the early 90s, got stolen.

Are you fucking kidding me? No, I didn't know that. No, I had no gear.

I had no gear. I didn't even have anything to mount.

I didn't have a tambourine that you can hit, and I didn't have anything to mount it on.

And I had no tambourine maracas, cowbells, whistles, all my tricks, and claves.

And thank goodness that Rebecca...

Track 3

[14:16] Was in the band because at first rebecca was just going to kind of come out there,

and do keyboard parts and either come

and go or just kind of sit there and she's a

really good i mean she's a great drummer and she's

a really good percussionist um so i said no you're

gonna do something on every song and

then we you know quickly find out found out that she can

do background vocals on anything and that's

great she can scream and obviously and

she's also very joyful performer um and she was you know she's a good very good

percussionist so thankfully i was able to use some of her stuff um that night

but it was still was not my stuff i I mean, it was very,

very, it would be like if.

Track 3

[15:11] Well, actually, I think it kind of, I mean, it would be like if,

like, guitars got stolen from a guitar player.

I mean, that actually, it happened to Dinosaur, I think maybe in Porto,

Dinosaur Jr., all their guitars got lost and they were still in Italy when they played.

Oh my god yeah so they

had to play i think they bought guitars um you

know that's so whatever i mean

i'm happy that it was me because if it

had been like anybody else

then they probably would have had a harder time i mean i was able to just you

kept it cool i'll just wing it you know what what i mean like it was funny because

nobody you know people you kind of realize the level of.

Track 3

[16:07] How, uh, you know, the, the immense level, you know, of your bandmates,

they're kind of focused on their own deal.

Like they couldn't deal with that.

My bad news. Um, only Rebecca could like only Rebecca could like,

you know, I mean, she's great.

She's great. she was really a neat addition like

really uh from the fonda

show i mean i went to the fonda show that was just

it was mind-blowing that was a that was my favorite

show of the tour like that was the first i can see why i mean it was long if

you're a big fan i mean we played tons of songs and it sounded fine and it was

small and the atmosphere was good and i mean at least 90 90% of the people in

there were way into the band. Oh, yeah.

So, I mean, it was kind of an ideal time to see Pavement because we were fresh

off the shelf and in a mode where we kind of had to give everything a go.

Yeah, it was tremendous to be a part of it and experience it.

One thing I wanted to talk to you about was Rebecca Clay Cole and you know, her, um.

Track 3

[17:29] Her contributions, I suppose, to the overall pavement experience,

like, um, is she sort of a permanent member at this point? Is she coming to South America?

I mean, of course she's coming to South America, right?

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, that's it. And that's it. I mean, right now that's it. Sure. Sure.

It's 2024. You guys have been on the road for two years, man.

Yeah we haven't done anything those for a long time we haven't done anything since um cincinnati,

and um it's going to kind of be interesting because one good thing about south

america is we don't obviously haven't played there um a couple of the places we've never played and,

and we've only played three shows down there ever so we can just you know basically

play we don't have to learn 70 pavements to relearn 70 payment songs you know not that,

not that they're immensely challenging but at the same time.

Track 3

[18:35] You know i basically could make the four set lists now

and um you know

we're you know it's not going to be you won't

be hearing um greenlander no but

uh you go with the uh you go with the

essentials not the deep cuts yeah and i think we've got i think i'm in a list

of 32 that i sent out to them about six six weeks ago oh that's good yeah sounds

all right well if i come into any money i'll see you in uh i'll see you in south

america but let us know yeah yeah let us know i But,

you know, times are tough.

Well, should we talk about track number, what is it? Track number 33 on the

countdown? Okay, that's pretty good.

All right, let's do it. Yeah, that's pretty good.

Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement.

Track 1

[19:32] Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown. 33!

Track 3

[23:28] Okay, that was Transport is Arranged from the fourth record released February

11th, 1997, Bright in the Corners.

It's the third track on the album, and it's the sixth song from Bright in the

Corners that is on the countdown at this point.

So Bright in the Corners is representing the bottom portion of this top 50 so far.

Bob, what do you think about Transport is Arranged? Jamie.

I just think that, first of all, it's cool to hear that Bright in the Corners

got a lot of action, having a lot of love.

It is a very listenable pavement record. I love it.

And I think Transport is Arranged, when the record was made in Kernersville,

North Carolina with Mitch Easter,

was just kind of viewed and the feel around it was that, okay,

that's another song that definitely should be on the record.

Track 3

[24:33] Um but isn't the kind

of song that um it you

know maybe should be a single or something like that it was just it was just

a song that was like really solid and good and then as the song got played over

and over again on tour and over the years um i think it's become rather clear to me that,

you know, aside from kind of the more bubblegum-y songs on the record like Stereo and Shady Lane,

that it would have stood up as a truly special pavement song.

And I just think that it's, for the most part, an outstanding example of,

Of not only Stephen's songwriting ability and composing, but I just think it's

an unusually good set of lyrics.

I'm with you. When I think about like verse three, I swung my fiery sword,

I vent my spleen at the Lord.

He is abstract and bored, too much milk and honey.

Well, I'll walk through the wilderness with nothing but a compass and a canteen

setting the scenes. I mean, it just got this certain depth.

Track 3

[25:57] Of course, you know, I am the worst of my kind. I want to cremate the crush.

It's funny, some people think that that's crutch, but it's I want to cremate

the crush actually has a lot of personal importance to me because that's an

expression I used to use.

Track 3

[26:17] Really? Yeah, Cremate the Crush. I would actually say that that's a valid lyrical

contribution from my notebook that was usurped by Balchmus,

which he was more than welcome to do that.

That um cremate the crush was often used when one of your mates had um regardless of.

Track 3

[26:45] Gender orientation had fallen really really hard for somebody and it became

clear to yourself and everyone around that it wasn't going to work and it was a really bad idea.

Track 3

[26:58] And um so you had to pull your friend and that believe me that happens whether

you're You know, no matter how old you are, you know, sometimes you just,

um, I think we've all seen it in our lives.

We've seen people that fall really hard for the wrong person and rather than

just sit back and watch them go through a very vile, um, heartbreak,

um, an effort needs to be made to cremate the crush.

Um wow and that's the expression that i used um all right man like this is ridiculous

like because you see it all the time like yes obviously amongst my dude friends like dude man,

you're really barking up the wrong tree there you know

what i mean not yeah whatever whatever series of reasons um

but really transport is arranged um

as that song got played there's a a really unusually good

version of it really good recording and filming from an italian show that we

did um it's on youtube um oh i'll have to look that up mouth miss had really

really short hair um it was this really strange festival that i believe was

somewhere in the vicinity of venice um.

Track 3

[28:18] And it was one of these festivals that you turn up to in the early afternoon,

and the people are still, like, kind of making the stage, and you're sort of,

like, in this state of disbelief that any concert's actually going to happen there today.

And this was the vibe. We were just like, whoa.

Oh, you know, because usually it's like, you know, the Heineken banners are

already up and like, you know, the kids are already listening to,

you know, a band that sounds like Green Day and, you know, people are drinking

or you see the tent village.

This festival, it looked like they'd gotten the days wrong, and it was going

to happen two or three days, but somehow they whipped it all together,

and we played a very memorable version of Transport is Arranged.

Track 3

[29:13] And you know it pretty much became a staple of our

live show from the bright in the corners tour

forward um it's just has a good um mid-tempo vibe to it good lyrics good guitar

love the tone of his voice the tone of his voice is really like in a sweet spot,

i agree i just say to me it's just like a great pavement song it's always really relaxing um,

kind of in a grounded sort of way but like even more relaxing and like,

yeah i mean some people you know at times think that pavement doesn't rock and

then when we actually do rock we're just like pretending to be hardcore or pretending

to be like jokey metal or or something like that.

I actually feel like Transporter is arranged, if it's played with a proper punch,

kind of is truly a rock and roll song.

Oh, when you get to that, when you get past the solo and you guys all get into

it, it sounds so tight and it sounds.

Track 3

[30:23] Yeah, it sounds very tight and it sounds very rocky, you know,

like rock and roll. It rocks.

It's a great rock and song. it kind of stomps and but then it gets really mellow

it just has really really good dynamic and yeah I can tell you like whenever

I put it on a set list we don't,

We don't really start with it because it doesn't, you know, sometimes songs

with like kind of a very mellow lead in, it's not such a good idea.

But you can sort of stick it after anything kind of noisy.

Track 3

[31:00] And then, so then people can sort of like return to like sort of a serene vibe.

And then after a certain period of time, it kicks back in again.

So, um, I just love, um, I love that song and it's always a pleasure to see,

to put it on a list and see it coming up.

And, um, in fact, depending on who I'm talking to, if they've never heard Pavement before, um,

and I sort of get a general idea that they like rock music, then it's a song

that I would almost play first.

First um to sort of you

know give them a feel and then when i do play transporters

range they're like oh okay like yeah like 90s um

college rock or something and uh

yeah yeah which is fair special it's

more special than that but i i hear you you know

but i'm talking about complete newbiles they um

because if you play them something too

cute or i mean obviously

you know i'm in the horse racing profession and there's a lot of people that

you play father to a sister of thought and range life and other sort of country

tin songs because they you know would absolutely there's a lot of people i know

a lot of my friends um who know of pavement don't like pavement because.

Track 3

[32:26] It to them it sounds too harsh um you

know because a lot of people don't really have any punk rock background

right okay um they don't want to hear anything

like unfair or serpentine pad

or they don't want to hear anything medium fire lo-fi like debris slide or forklift

i mean like something like forklift just sounds like 13 year olds making a horrible

racket um to them like they don't see the cool in that you know yeah um you

know of course There's...

Track 3

[33:01] I mean, I haven't listened to it on vinyl in a long time, but Forklift,

you know, I remember it sounding kind of maniacal and frenzied in a very 1990s

sort of way, which was kind of cool.

But I can understand, but Transport Is Arranged kind of ticks all the boxes,

like Grounded would sound like kind of like too much, like a stoner type thing to people.

People um shady lane might sound kind of

like listless summer babes kind

of repetitive and some people might think like oh

you guys wanted to be nirvana or something

um which we certainly

did not um that didn't

look like much fun to me and uh but yeah no i just i just love the song and

i think that it's it should definitely not be a forgotten song transport is

arranged i think it It should be sort of at the forefront of anybody making

a mixtape or a tape of 10 to 15 pavement songs.

I like that. Yeah, it stands up. So then you would say on the countdown,

it's underrated at 33, right?

Yeah, and I would, I mean, for me, it would always be in my top five.

Top five? Holy shit, Bob.

Yeah, it would be in my top five.

Track 3

[34:26] Unquestionably top 10 But probably top 5 In fact people ask you know sometimes like,

You know, one lazy question by anybody is like, what's your actual favorite pavement song?

And, you know, when you say transport is arranged, you're not being entirely obvious.

And then if they've only heard 10 pavement songs or 15 pavement songs or just

the hits, then you're kind of forcing them to listen to a great pavement song

that they may have not heard before.

So it would unquestionably be in my top five um it's under four minutes i mean um,

i really am very much of the you know when it comes to a band that's a rock band in sort of the,

three minute form like pavement is i mean um you know my general belief.

Track 3

[35:23] Maybe it has to do with attention span or something like that but songs over

five minutes better be

pretty awesome for you to justify them being that

long agree um totally agree it's a

little pretentious brilliant right there's so

many great bands who have made so

many great songs and they just fall prey

to loving their groove so hard that

they do it one or two passes too many

and a song that

might have had like you know major appeal whether

it be like sort from a venom sense or from a sweetness

sense is just um loses

its effect if it's

got too much length so um i think

it weighs in under four minutes i think it's you know it's i think it's four

minutes are justified i don't think there's any wasted motion i think it's got

good dynamics and again one of malcolm's best sets of lyrics um you know and

i think you know obviously.

Track 3

[36:30] David and Stephen were both very good lyricists and, you know,

David's a poet. He was celebrated for it.

And I think that David, you know, was an influence on Stephen and sort of challenged

him from a lyric writing perspective and would get annoyed when Stephen was

being too lazy about lyrics.

And I think very much in, you know, the Stevens sense,

it's a unusually or just a very good set of lyrics from a lyricist who had at

that point very much found his way.

You know, something that had been sort of a discardable aspect of the band,

even to an extent through a lot of Slanted and Enchanted.

And then, you know, I mean, some people think that his lyrics are just garbled nonsense.

And to an extent, you know, by intent, they are, you know, fairly good.

Track 3

[37:44] Senseless but i mean you know i think of songs like um this song and from a

completely different era um lyrics like trigger cut um i just think that you

know he he's he does not get,

the he gets the respect he deserves as a guitar player but perhaps not as a

lyricist i think you know transport his range has both yeah i'd agree totally

agree what is the whole pillars of eight thing. Do you have any insight on that?

What's that? The pillars of eight. Do you have any insight on that?

No, no, no, I don't really have anything of that.

I think it probably has to do with, um, just, uh, you know, then you're falling into him.

Um, and I think you've probably seen some of his scrawlings and notebooks and stuff like that.

Um, you fall into him choosing

expressions and just simply sort

of loving words and how they look and

how they sound coming out of his mouth and then so

then using uh you know sets of a set of words like pillars of eight and putting

in a place where it's going to fit you know obviously that you know eight rhymes

with a lot a lot of things and fit you know i'm saying so yeah yeah you know he's.

Track 3

[39:06] When you're in a situation where not only are you going to have to write lyrics but,

you're going to also have them um

analyzed then i think that you force yourself to you know put a certain amount

of time into that process and i think throughout the course of um his entire songwriting history.

Track 3

[39:38] I think, you know, perhaps it's a bit freeing since Pavement ended that things

are a little bit less under the microscope.

Track 3

[39:47] But certainly in 1997, they, you know, were very much under the microscope.

In fact, this album, I remember getting really slammed by a writer at a major

music publication for the lyrics in Blue Hawaiian.

Um, they were actually misconstrued as sexist in, um, this, um,

particularly the line, the slap is a gift. Your cheeks have lost their luster.

Um, Oh my God. I would have never put that together.

I would have got there from that. You know, this slap is a gift.

I mean when I

mean then you know in some ways like um you could see how the journalist made

that point I suppose but I mean I yeah like you I never really thought along

those lines because maybe if you know the person and you know that they're not

like a misogynist creep then,

you don't even really think about them in that context but um perhaps um that

person did and I just remember, you know, when you write songs,

which I don't do, then you are just like any type of writer,

you are susceptible to...

Track 3

[41:10] To criticism and then you know then of course you've you've

reached a certain mantle when your lyrics are being picked

apart and every pick of you in detail is being brought to the fore um and but

that's like also a compliment that people you know care that much about what

you write that's um yeah but you know at the same time like you know some things that are almost

like unfathomable to a songwriter, um,

come to the, you know, come, come to the floor when, when people go over them with a fine tooth comb.

Um, but, uh, no, I've never really heard anybody moan about Brighton the Corners,

um, lyrics and, you know, maybe it's because it is like in the thirties.

Um, but I really don't think it should be a forgotten song.

I think that in some ways it's as good as Late Period,

and when I say Late Period, I would say albums four and five,

as good as Pavement was in terms of sounding like Pavement.

I mean, there isn't much of Terror Twilight,

which can be described as sort of typically pavement,

but there is on Bright in the Corners, and you definitely cannot describe a

song like Stereo as typically pavement.

Track 3

[42:40] So, yeah, no, pleasure talking about one of my favorite pavement songs, Jamie.

Me Bob it's been a pleasure talking to you period it always is anytime man I'm

basically just basking in the glorious winter sunlight here in Paris that's

spectacular yeah with my unmade bed,

And, um, I don't even know what I'm going to do.

I actually have to go grocery shopping, but yeah, a pleasure,

pleasure to talk to you and good luck with all of your endeavors.

And, uh, let me know if you need anything more from me.

Awesome. Thanks so much. Always, you know, uh, shall I remind you again that,

um, Steve West would probably be, you know, gladly help, um, help you out.

Oh, I'll ask him. Yeah.

He'll definitely do it. Cool. I can also hook you up with Rebecca if you want her to do one.

It would be cool. That would be really cool because then I could ask her that

question that you planted in my head.

Yeah, it'd be really good actually, because then, then you'd be the first,

um, prominent music journalist that tackled that question.

Track 3

[43:51] Anyways, love you, mate. And, uh, have, have a, have a great,

uh, Canadian afternoon and I'll, I'll, uh, pass on.

You've got all the Wes information, right? I do. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll pass on Rebecca's. Cool. Oh, all right. All right.

Take care of yourself and keep on flying the flag.

You betcha. All right. Enjoy yourself. My pleasure.

One more thing. Wash your goddamn hands.

Thanks for listening.

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This week on the program, Alex from Portland talks about his Pavement Origin story with jD before they gab about song 34!

Transcript:

Track 1

[1:00] It's Half a Canyon. Ryan, from Soundtrack Your Life, what are your initial thoughts about this song?

It's a great song. I really like this song.

For some reason, for a long time, I thought this was the last song on Wowie Zowie.

It kind of has that epic, you know? Yeah, it has that epic finale,

you know, with how it ends and just this big jam of chaos.

Hey, this is Westy from the Rock.

Track 3

[1:33] Roll Band, Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole

Indie Rock Band, Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to countdown the 50 essential pavement tracks that

you selected with your very own Top 20 ballads.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a pool cue I broke over my knee in a moment of rage.

How will your favorite song fare in the ranking? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that.

This week we're joined by Pavement superfan Alex from Portland.

Alex, how you doing, motherfucker? Fucking great, JD. How are you?

Oh, man, I am stellar right now. I am feeling good. Yeah.

How about you? Feeling good myself. I apologize if my vocal cords crack.

I decided to sing karaoke last night. Oh, nice.

Yeah. What'd you sing?

Rocks Off by the Rolling Stones.

Oh, wow. I went really, really hard in my Jagger mode, too.

So if I sound like a mid-pubescent boy, that's why.

Track 3

[2:50] That's great. Well, what do you say we talk about pavement? I'm so ready.

All right. Hit me with your pavement origin story.

It goes like this. So I am a millennial. I was born in 1990.

So when they were doing their initial, when they were an active band recording

music and touring originally, I was way too young to be a part of it or even know about it.

But how I came to Pavement is, I was 15. This would have been 2005.

We had a local coffee shop where I'm from, a small town in Indiana.

And you would walk down there on a given night, and there would be live music.

It was usually acoustic bands.

And we were there, me and a couple friends of mine.

And we're watching this like i don't

know kind of like weird sort of indie

band they were acoustic but they were still kind of like doing

heavier stuff and they were catchy and interesting and weird

and the lyrics didn't really make any sense and i

was fascinated like at 15 years old the shit was blowing my mind and i was like

hell yeah dude this band's great and i look over and we see Matt the cool kid

and Matt's like this mysterious kind of you know all the boys want to be him

all the girls want to be with him he's shout out to Matt that kid was just the coolest kid in our town.

Track 3

[4:17] And I remember going up to Matt after the show and

saying like man that band we just watched was really

cool and he he takes like you know a probably a

five second drag of a cigarette just goes they're just

ripping off pavement man oh wow

and i uh i had never i didn't know

who that was but of course i'm trying to be cool for cool matt so

i'm like yeah dude totally totally ripping off

pavement yeah they're they're way better so i

i rushed home i open up lime wire

of course yeah i've been pavement into

the search bar and and by the way i did want to

uh i wanted to reiterate something i wrote into

you when you were doing your old show uh in

2005 if you opened up you know

a peer-to-peer illegal downloading app

uh and you typed in pavement harness your

hopes was by far the top thing

that would come up really even on limewire even back then it wasn't even close

like it was harness your hopes with however many thousands or hundreds of thousands

of downloads And then I think cut your hair was like number two,

but it was down by quite a margin.

That's wild. So harness your hopes has been the fan favorite for a lot longer

than people have noticed.

Track 3

[5:37] I wonder if that's because people were looking, you know, if they're looking

for pavement, like the idea of a B-side is so savory, you know,

and B-sides weren't always easy to get.

Yeah it's it might just be their

like you know undisputed best song and everyone

just knows it or something i don't know but i heard

it and i just i walked away with two thoughts after listening to that which

is one this doesn't actually sound anything like that band i just heard at the

coffee shop and number two this is definitely my new favorite band the the word

blew my mind the The guitars were kind of jangly,

but also kind of grungy, which like jangle pop and grunge are pretty much my whole wheelhouse.

And they sort of combined them seamlessly into one thing. And I'm like, yeah, dude, I'm all in.

And from then on, they've, you know, my favorite bands shift,

but they've been in the top five ever since. Wow.

Track 3

[6:36] So when you when you finally decided to jump away from LimeWire and purchase

your first record, what was the CD or cassette?

What was it? What did you end up with out of the shoot? dude?

Oh, wowie zowie. That was the one that I was just like, my favorite,

you know, my favorite record is definitely wowie zowie.

So when I had the chance to purchase it, I had the vinyl.

I used to have a picture, but I was wearing, I was wearing a shirt of a band that's now canceled.

So I deleted the picture off social media, but I had a picture of me holding

up the smooth blank fourth side of that record yes if you know that record is

uh it's it's two and a half side wow.

Track 3

[7:23] Or three sides yeah yeah yeah you know

what i'm saying it's it's a record and a half yeah absolutely

it's yeah yeah i was

so fascinated by that and uh yeah i i'm i'm now a completist i've got all the

i've got all the reissues i've got all the you know lux and redux and and all

that basically everything that i could get my hands on and yeah i'm the same

i'm the same every Every time I come up with something new,

it's like, man, and we're recording this,

you know, uh, in February right now.

So we've heard of this seven inch box set coming out, but we don't know what

it is, uh, and what it will entail.

I'm very curious about it, if it's going to be a must purchase or not.

I mean, it's going to be just because I'm a completist. Even if it's not my

favorite or whatever, Terror of Twilight is my least favorite pavement album,

but you better believe I bought that thing when it came out a couple of years ago.

Yeah. Well, we waited so goddamn long for that.

Track 3

[8:31] So they really over-delivered, I thought. I thought we waited a long time for

it, but it was completely worth the wait once I put the records on my turntable.

And so, you know what else I waited a long time for and finally got in,

I think it was September of 2022, was I got to see them live for the first time.

Oh, I was just going to ask you about shows. September 2022.

So where was the venue? In Portland. Well, in Troutdale, which is like northeast

of Portland, but they have a venue out there that was big enough to kind of

suit the size of the show.

Gorilla Toss opened for them. I'm a pretty big fan of them.

We're in their like hyper pop era, which is really fun.

I think I saw them on the road with Gorilla Toss as well.

I think I'll have to ask Tim from Portland because he's got a way better memory

than me, but we saw them in Toronto.

Track 3

[9:29] And I'm pretty sure Gorilla Toss was one of the opening bands and I enjoyed it.

Yeah, yeah, I had a blast at that show. Also, one little funny tidbit,

when they played Rangelife,

Malkma found a way to work in All Cops Are Bastards into the Run From the Pigs,

the Fuzz, the Cops, the Heat.

He somehow worked that lyric into there, and the crowd went absolutely apeshit.

That was the most excited the crowd got on it. He definitely knew he was playing

to a Portland crowd. It was really neat.

That is cool. Cool. Well, I mean, he's a transplant now, right?

He's part Portlander at this point.

He's been here a lot longer than I have. Yeah.

Also, I wanted to mention another cool thing that happened much more recently,

about a month ago on my birthday, actually.

Dinosaur Jr. played Portland at the Revolution Hall.

All and what i don't know if you've been following their tour or not or if you're

even a fan um i didn't catch the band sorry dinosaur jr oh okay yeah dinosaur

yeah yeah yeah so they've been like.

Track 3

[10:48] And they've been getting like a local musician from whatever city they're playing

in to like join them for a song on stage their whole tour.

And like, I think it was I think when they were in Philly, they got Kurt Vile

to go up with them, stuff like that.

And when they were in Portland, you know, guess who the special guest was that

came out and sang a song with them.

I fucking saw that. I saw some video. Yeah. How spoiled were you that night?

It was amazing. It was like two of my favorite 90s bands getting up there and

jamming out together on one of their best songs.

And it was just a lot of fun, and I enjoyed it.

To see J and SM dueling guitars would be fucking so cool.

They're both so different, but so good, you know?

Oh, yeah. With the guitar.

Track 3

[11:45] Yeah, it was phenomenal. phenomenal also they're they're

doing uh where you've been in its entirety and that's

my favorite dinosaur album so and it

was my birthday and i was like yeah the the universe kind

of gave me this as a present like you know got

to see malchmus get up there so it was a lot of fun

dude that does sound like fun god damn it that's fun well what do you think

should we get into to track 34 i think i'm ready to get into it then let's do

this we'll be back on the other side with track 34 hey this is bob nastanovich

from pavement uh thanks for listening.

Track 1

[12:23] And now on with a countdown 34.

Track 3

[15:23] Okay, we are back. You heard it here first.

The first song from the original version of Slanted and Enchanted to appear

on the countdown, Loretta Scars.

Alex from Portland, how are you feeling about Loretta Scars?

It's a great song. I've got all kinds of thoughts on it, but,

you know, it's on Slanted and Enchanted, which is a great album.

It's slanted and enchanted is the least uh varied album in my opinion like,

most of the songs on it are kind of of one vibe and this is definitely no exception

um i think it's a great vibe i i enjoy it but uh yeah um i guess if i can start.

Track 3

[16:14] Out the gate with With my only really negative take on it. Sure.

It kind of feels like. Like the meme of like. Hey mom can we stop for summer

babe. No we have summer babe at home. And it's this.

Track 3

[16:30] They're different chords. But they're played in the exact same structure.

And the drum beats the same. It's that classic Gary Young. Boom boom.

You know. Kind of thing. But it's still a great song. I'm definitely not shitting

on it at all, and I'm ready to say all good things from here on out.

I just figured I would get that out first.

Well, hit me. Hit me with some good stuff. Hit me with your best shot, Pat Benatar.

So, when you... Okay, how do I put this?

When you're listening to the bulk of the lyrics are just, how can I,

how can I, how can I make my body shed for you? you body shed around your little scars.

If you're listening to the how can I, how can I part, it sounds like he's like

drunk or something, like he's slurring it, like he's not keeping up with the rhythm.

Yeah. So just earlier today as a fun little exercise, what I tried to do was

sing it myself in a way that would fit the meter and it's impossible.

Really? Yeah, you can't do it. There's no way. I don't know if it's because

How Can I is three beats and the song's in 4-4, but for whatever reason,

you can't really make it go with the beat.

And yet, when it gets to...

Track 3

[17:52] Make my body when he comes in on body it's

always perfectly on beat again even though he like every time he does it it

gets a little bit slower and more drawn out kind of drunker sounding uh he nails

it every time so i i really respect the way that the words are delivered from a standpoint of

like this shouldn't work but it

does right yeah i

can i can see that it's very sparse lyrically very

sparse lyrically it's funny because uh

like one of the things i love about malchmus and

it's the same thing i loved about david berman same thing

i love about bob dylan dan behar sometimes neil

young and joni mitchell is like you'll be listening to

a song and you're so like emotionally invested and

you feel the power of it and it's such

a great song and then you're singing along and you stop and you're like

i don't know what the fuck i'm singing about right now at all and that that's

most if not all malchus lyrics but yeah i would agree with that but this one

i'm like you know and i i even did the thing where i went to genius just to see what they would have.

Track 3

[19:08] To say and uh you know it's

just i think it's one paragraph that someone

wrote in that just says like the narrator clearly doesn't know how to help the

person named loretta and it's like okay thanks for the information yeah that's

really gets us nowhere but that but that's all you're gonna get you're gonna

get nowhere if you like i gave up a long time ago trying to like.

Track 3

[19:33] Grab any serious meaning from a lot of Pavement's catalog, if not all of it.

Maybe Grounded is like, you know, doctors are these rich assholes that don't

give a shit about people.

You can grab that from Grounded, but most Pavement songs don't really...

I don't think they have a meaning. I don't think that's the point.

Track 3

[19:56] Yeah, I think there's bits and phrases that you can glean something from,

you know, thematically in a song.

But few and far between is there like a narrative, which was so different when

he released his first solo record.

And all those songs had like total narratives, like protagonist,

beginning, middle, end.

And like, there's so many songs on SM's debut that showcase that he's not just

somebody who's just throwing phrases at a wall, but he's really got it.

So I don't know, you know, like he told me when I spoke to him that he can compartmentalize

Pavement and his solo stuff.

Track 3

[20:40] But there's, to me, there's a little bit of bleed. There's a little bit of bleed on some songs.

And I, of course I don't have them in top of my mind right now,

but, uh, I tend to agree with you, but I think that there are some that,

you know, yeah, no, for sure.

And, and I'm, I'm just, of course I'm overgeneralizing, but like,

so you're thinking about Loretta scars though.

Like that's the, that's the song we're talking about right now. And I mean, I,

I, I don't have, I don't know what your thoughts are

on what the lyrics could possibly mean but i've gotten nothing yeah well what

is the deal with metal scars at one point he says metal scars how can i shed

around your metal scars like is this a robot is this like what the fuck man

well if it's a robot it's probably not loretta lynn.

Track 3

[21:32] Oh right yeah only only loretta i know of so yeah it's a not a common name.

Track 3

[21:39] Or cleveland's ex-wife from family guy

i never watched family guy so you're

you're better you're much better off for it

what else

have you got on loretta scars i anything much

else i mean it's a tough this is a tough ask it

there's literally six lines you

know and then they're repeated it i like how you broke down

the music though there's about three chords

for most of it there's the gary drum beat

that he does on summer babe um we could

talk about gary's drumming though for a minute because i i understand me too

i don't i like and this has been said a million times by a million people including

people on your podcast um but you know westy is probably the more like.

Track 3

[22:33] Technically proficient and varied drummer

but gary's got this like

certain style of playing this

swag this kind of like vibe that he creates with

the way he hits the drums and it doesn't

sound like anyone else and i really appreciate that

for what it is and you can tell gary's song right

away yeah you're right you can tell a gary song right away oh

yeah and this this is a great it like

this would be a good song to demonstrate that point if i was going to play a

song for someone and be like this is gary young drumming you know yeah this

would be the one you would choose it would be it would it would be close i mean

like i said there it's the same drums on summer babe and then you've got uh.

Track 3

[23:22] What's the, what's the song after a flamethrower where it's only one like line

that he says over and over again?

I can't remember the name of the song. Yeah, me neither.

But that song is basically the same drum pattern.

So whoever's going to be listening to your podcast is going to scream at the

phone, whatever the name of that is.

And good for them. I do that too.

But, uh, yeah, no, it's, it's a good.

It's a good example of that Gary Young drum sound, and I'm not a musician,

so I can't explain it in technical terms, but because I am like a diehard music

obsessive, I know when I hear it and I know when I don't.

Gotcha. And you like it. I love it. Yeah.

I love it. I mean, I don't know if there's like a bad pavement song,

even their like fuck around, throw away B-sides are usually funny.

Track 3

[24:18] Agreed yeah i i totally agree with you you know uh there's a lot of a lot of

good stuff on the b-sides my question my next question for you though is where

does this song fit in the top 50 is it rated properly should it have been higher

should it have been lower what do you think yeah Yeah,

because I only know what like 47 through 50 are,

it's difficult for me to like, it would be so much easier for me to come up

with my own top 50 if I knew if I could like argue yours, you know? Right.

But yeah, just as far as it being fairly rated, no.

Track 3

[25:01] Yeah because i don't even know if it makes my top five

on slanted but but it's

also a great song so agree yeah

so would i put it in

the top 25 no but what i put it in the

top 50 yes so 33 sounds about

right sounds about right yeah that's what i think it's

a top it's a top 40 song because it's from

that debut record you know uh which

turned so many of us on to pavement

not me because i came so late to

the party and you you came late to the party but those

cool fucking mark kids matt it

was matt you said right yeah yeah his

his his cohort you know we're probably

into slanted like you know not him specifically but his cohort we're listening

to slanted you know when it dropped and reading zines and whatnot every every

like town every city has got at least one of those mats and probably some of them are named mark and,

yeah yeah they're they're always going to be a little bit cooler than you and

uh when you're a teenager i think you need that that's like your north star

you know and then you sort of use that as a branch to find your own way and

pave your own path and uh i'm grateful i'm grateful I'm grateful for that kid,

and I'm grateful for his little comment that made me go search out Pavement

and fall in love right away. Really cool origin story.

Track 3

[26:30] Well, that's what I've got, so I'm not sure if there's anything else you want

to say or if there's anything you want to plug.

Track 3

[26:39] Well, premature plug, but I don't know when you're releasing this,

so maybe it will be out by then.

I am starting my own podcast. It's going to be a music-obsessive deep dive,

and I'm going to attempt to connect a bunch of dots between bands.

Track 3

[26:58] Themes, record labels, the culture around it, tracing back from 60s stuff until.

Track 3

[27:05] Now, 90s, everything in between.

Uh it's gonna be sort of

like the charlie day meme where he's got

you know the he's in like the post office basement he's

going through his whole conspiracy with that's right all the

string and shit it's it's gonna be like a music

version of that so if you're

yeah if you're a music obsessive

like me and you think i'm funny

or crazy or interesting then yeah uh i'll have

jd plug this when it's ready

to go cool awesome if you don't mind of course i just volunteered you to plug

my show at some point absolutely well alex totally all right brother well that's

what i've got and that's what alex from portland has so we thank you for tuning

in and wash your goddamn hands.

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This week jD is joined by Ryan from the Soundtrack Your Life podcast, to discuss song number 35 on the countdown. Will it surprise you? Download and let me know! jd@meetingmalkmus.com

Transcript:

Track 2

[1:00] Previously on the pavement top 50.

Track 1

[1:02] So there it is track 36 on the countdown is

harness your hopes from the june 22nd release

of the spit on a stranger ep and then

later on the bright in the corner nicene creators edition

reissue chad from

los angeles what are

you vibing with this song talk to me it's funny i i like this i mean let me

preface it with i like this song a lot um is it my favorite pavement song no

you know um it's probably not in my top,

25 or 30 favorite pavement songs but that is that doesn't mean that it's not

a good song it's obviously it's it's a really good song i really enjoy it.

Track 2

[1:51] Hey this is westy from the rock and roll band pavement and you're listening

to the countdown countdown.

Track 3

[1:58] Hey, it's JD here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal

indie rock band, Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that

you selected with your very own top 20 ballots.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and 10 metric rulers and a box of rat poison.

How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune

in to find out. So there's that.

This week, I'm joined I'm joined by pavement superfan Ryan from Soundtrack Your Life.

Ryan, how the fuck are you? I'm doing great.

Excited to talk about pavement. That is good to hear. Yeah, and you came to

the right place then, because that's what we're going to do.

And we'll kick it right off.

We won't mess around. We'll kick things right off with your pavement origin story.

Track 3

[2:48] So I was in high school, and I have an older sister.

I have many older sisters, but

I have one specific older sister who was working in the music business,

and I think she had a big hand in telling me, like, there's more to music than

just what you hear on the radio. Right.

And I don't know exactly how that conversation came up, but Pavement was definitely

one of the bands that she recommended for me.

And in 97 she was working at Capitol Records and Capitol Records co-released

Brighten the Corners I did not

know that yeah so they did a few different albums with Matador they did.

Track 3

[3:38] Um, a couple of the John Spencer blues explosion records. Um,

and they did, I think Liz fairs, white chocolate space egg album.

Whoa. Okay. And so my sister sent me bright in the corner. So I think that was

my first pavement album.

Um, and I think I'd been exploring them, you know, through music videos on MTV.

And, um, I think there was a website called like the pavement internet archive.

That's some guy at some college hosted where like he had like some of the,

uh, BBC sessions and stuff like that. So, you know, since I was on a high school

budget, I couldn't just go out and buy all the records.

So I was trying to figure out how to listen to Pavement without owning anything.

Track 3

[4:21] But, I mean, eventually I got them all, but that's kind of how it all started.

It was a good time to look for free music in the late 90s.

I mean, with Napster and LimeWire and that kind of stuff, it was easy to track

down. Was there a lot of pavement out there on those types of services when you were looking?

I think the albums were out there. I think as far as like the,

you know, the single B-side tracks, I don't think those were as available.

I mean, once Napster got really into full gear, like everything was available.

Yeah. But, you know, in like 1998, I was going to this guy's website and I think

he just hosted it through like some, his college.

And he just had all the B-sides and all the BBC and John Peel sessions.

That must have been like a treasure chest when you found that.

Oh, yeah. I remember not having enough hard disk space on my computer,

but I just kept downloading them.

Track 3

[5:24] Oh. Did you ever get a chance to see them live?

I did. So I saw them on the Bright in the Corners tour.

And I lived in San Diego at the time, and a lot of bands like Pavement,

they only played like 21 and up venues.

Oh, really? But Pavement, because they were bigger than the average indie band,

they played an all ages show, so I was really excited about that.

Oh, wow. Tell me a bit about that show.

Track 3

[5:57] So they were on tour with Royal Trucks and Biss.

And my sister got me

into the show because she was working at the label and i

remember like i had like a hard curfew at like 11 o'clock and pavement had only

been playing for like half an hour um and i remember they they kicked things

off with father to a sister of thought and he sounded great and uh yeah i mean

i wish i could have stayed for the whole show i had to leave of early,

but at least I got to see a little bit of pavement.

Did you make, did you make up for it and any of the reunion tours and see them again or?

Yeah, I saw them three times on the 2010 reunion tour. Oh, whoa.

And I saw them. What, where did you see them? I saw them twice in the LA area.

And then I went to one of the Central Park shows in New York.

Awesome. Yeah, I was at one of those shows too.

Yeah, I met up with an old roommate from college, a couple of my roommates.

We all met up to go see Pavement. Oh, that's a lot of fun.

And then you were about to say that you saw them on the 2022 reunion as well?

Yeah, I saw them two of the three nights that they played in LA.

Track 3

[7:17] What venue did they play? They played the Orpheum. Oh, okay.

Like a 3,000 seat theater. Okay.

Yeah, it was sort of strange. Like, I saw them at the Fonda,

and then I went to Europe to watch a bunch of shows.

And it was interesting to see them in theaters, like to see people starting,

I guess it's our age, right?

Like, starting sitting down and then having them, you know, sort of make their

way to get us on our feet sort of thing.

Right. I think L.A. was pretty good at just being into it from the beginning.

Yeah the fonda show was in la and it was tremendous it was it was absolutely

tremendous uh do you want to shout out your sister for um for hooking you up

with this pavement knowledge yeah uh shout out to my sister amy she's not in

the music business anymore but,

um if i have to talk about my musical taste usually she um gets a shout out

because she She has a big part in that.

That's really cool. She's actually credited on that Tibetan Freedom concert record.

Track 3

[8:28] What? She's in the credits as an assistant A&R.

Really? Yeah. Oh, that's fucking cool.

That's really cool. Yeah. Is there anything else about your origin story that you want to share?

Or anything else about pavement in general that you want to share?

Track 3

[8:48] Um i have a little funny story uh sure

a couple months ago i was uh taking my kids to lego

land which is in san diego okay and there was you know just some like teenager

selling me an icy and i was wearing my pavement shirt and he goes oh what's

that shirt mean i said oh it's uh for this 90s band called pavement and he goes

oh yeah that's what i thought harness your hopes right,

and i was like yeah and he was like yeah that's a good song cool like that's a cool band,

oh and like yeah my mind was totally blown but i guess that you know that song

had a moment on tiktok so like a new generation of like kids are like listening

to pavement now my 14 year old knows it as well like she's like yeah dad i know

pavement and i'll be like what what do you know No. She'll be like, harness your hopes.

So funny that that song has had a life of its own. Right.

Yeah. Well, shall we flip the record and talk about the song of the week, track number 35?

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. We'll take a quick break and we'll be right

back with song number 35.

Track 2

[10:00] Hey, this is Bob Mastandovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

And now on with a countdown. 35.

Track 3

[16:13] All right, song number 35 is the fifth song on the list from Wowie Zowie.

It's the penultimate song on that record. Yep, it's Half a Canyon.

Ryan, from Soundtrack, Your Life, what are your initial thoughts about this song?

It's a great song. I really like this song.

For some reason, for a long time, I thought this was the last song on Wowie Zowie.

It kind of has that epic, you know. Yeah, it has that epic finale with how it

ends and just this big jam of chaos.

Jam of chaos. I love it. But it's one of my favorite Pavement songs where you

can't really hear the vocals that well. Agreed. Yeah.

And from a Bank for Your Buck perspective, it's six minutes and ten seconds,

and it's only got two paragraphs of lyrics.

Like it's it's very sparse on the uh on the vocal part but you're right it is

like a jam of chaos as it continues yeah and there's been times where like i'll

just have that uh beginning riff like stuck in my head and i'll have to like

remember like where it's from.

Track 3

[17:31] Like i'll know malchumus wrote it and i'm like where's that

that riff from like it's so catchy and

it's kind of bluesy but in a very malchemist way yeah i agree so what is your

relationship with this song you got you you jumped on for bright in the corners

how did it look going backwards at what point did you start to go backwards

and look at wowie zowie and records like that,

and um and what did you think of this song when you when you first heard it

so you know once i I got Bright in the Corners, I immediately went back to try

to get whatever Pavement albums I could find.

I think Wowie Zowie was maybe the last one I was able to pick up.

Track 3

[18:15] And I think at first the album in general didn't quite grab me the way,

you know, like Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain or even Slanted and Enchanted did.

But this was definitely one of the highlights early on because,

you know, that riff is so catchy and because it's such a visceral sort of rock song at the end.

And so it was definitely one of my highlights of Wowie Zowie.

And Wowie Zowie is one of those albums where I feel like your favorites from it always change.

There's so many tracks, right? Yeah.

I feel like what I liked at 20 and what I liked at 25 and 30 and so on,

if you were to ask me my five favorite songs from Wowie Zowie,

I'm sure it'd be different every time. Oh, that's funny.

Track 3

[19:12] Um, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a dense record and, and it varies in styles.

Like, whereas Crooked Rain is, you know, Malcolmist has called it his classic

rock or their classic rock record.

It's tough to summarize what Wowie Zowie is in like a short sentence.

Yeah. It kind of just goes all over the place. Yeah. But it still is a cohesive

album. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

So talk to me about a little bit about what you think. This is tough.

This one's going to be real tough. What do you think this song is about? Any ideas?

Well, he does bring up witch trials quite a bit. That's true, yes.

I cheated a little bit, and I went to Genius to see if there was an actual meaning

for the song. Oh, what did they have to say?

They pulled up a snippet from a Malcomus interview from 2018 where he's like,

yeah, the lyrics are just there for decoration.

Track 3

[20:19] I feel like that's so many songs you know

that he would he would say it that way even though you know we enjoy the songs

and look for content in his word salad uh it doesn't surprise me that he would

say that that it's just sort of a costume for the skeleton of the song Yeah.

And my friend who I went to one of the Central Park shows with,

he says that sometimes that he just feels like Malcomus is just like rapping.

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't really ever thought about that.

Hmm. Well, I gotta ask the question.

Do you think this song is overrated, underrated, properly rated?

And I realize it's tough to do when you don't have the whole list in front of you.

But this comes in at number 35. Should it be higher or lower, or is 35 about right?

Track 3

[21:19] Like I said, with Wowie Zowie, I think it's an album where even the deepest

cut has its fans, so I can't say that it's overrated. Right.

I'm going to say properly rated. Okay, I'll take that.

I'll take that. Yeah, I think so. Around 35, it's a memorable track off Wowie Zowie.

Track 3

[21:49] Yeah, 35 sounds about right to me as well. Well, Ryan from Soundtrack Your Life,

do you have anything that you would like to plug before we button this sucker up?

Sure soundtrack your life is a podcast that

i host with my friend nicole we talk about awesome soundtracks

uh with guests we've had different musicians um we've had like lou barlow from

sebado on the podcast get out uh correct legend from shutter to think cool um

we've had a daniel ephraim who put together the steve keen art book and he's

the manager of the apples and the stereo. He's been on a couple episodes.

Um, so, uh, we just talked to people about soundtracks and needle drops.

And, um, obviously we've done an episode on brain candy.

Cause yeah, I have to do an episode on that one because of, uh, soldiers is so good.

Track 3

[22:44] Um, but you know, it's, uh, we released two episodes a month and it's a lot of fun.

I think if you're a pavement fan, you'll probably like a lot of our episodes.

Episodes so find that at soundtrack your life

is it is it.com or dot

net for that on your dot net and then if not

search for that on your podcast app yeah and

you'll and you'll likely find it yeah where you can find this

podcast you can probably find a soundtrack your life as well cool well

thank you so much ryan uh it was a pleasure to meet you today and i'm real happy

that we got to do this yeah um it is an honor to talk pavement on the meeting

alchemist podcast oh thanks dude that means a lot uh take good care we'll talk

to you soon and don't forget wash your goddamn hands thanks.

Track 2

[23:31] For listening to meeting malchus a pavement podcast where we count down the

top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you if you've got questions or concerns

please shoot me an email jd at meeting malchus.com,

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jD is back and this week he's got Chad from Los Angeles in toe to discuss song 36 on the countdown, and to share his Pavement origin story.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/meeting-malkmus-a-pavement-podcast/exclusive-content

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jD is joined by Pierce from Detroit to discuss his Pavement origin story and wax poetic about song 37 on the countdown. Enjoy!

Transcript:

[0:00] Hey, it's JD here, and I just wanted to throw something down, somewhat of a challenge to all you musically inclined folks out there.

We are going to be doing a pod list again this year, and a pod list is simply a podcast playlist.

It's a pod list. The previous four pod lists have consisted of talented members of our Pavement community submitting songs that they have covered from the Pavement oeuvre.

Pavement adjacent songs are also welcome. So you could do PSOI, you could do Jicks, you could do Malcolm is Solo.

Anything is fair game, truly. So get your band together or grab an acoustic guitar and just play your fucking guts out.

From there, submit the song to me by email and we'll go from there.

So please submit those songs, jd at meetingmalkmus.com, or even better, use wetransfer.com if it's a big WAV file. And WAV files are what I prefer.

That will work out just magnificently. That's what she said.

Podlist 5 coming July 8th. So get those songs in and be a part of something special. Thanks so much.

Now, on with the show. Previously on the.

Track 2:

[1:26] Pavement Top 50. Without further ado, number 38, Date with Ikea.

Daniel from Chicago. Hey.

Talk to me about your experience with this song. Well, it was the first Pavement album that I was able to buy on its release date.

So it has a special place.

It was released, I think it's April 17th, 1997.

And I went to my local mall and walked in and bought this album.

Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement.

Track 4:

[2:13] And you're listening to The Countdown. hey it's jd here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band pavement week over week we're going tocount down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots i tabulated the results using an abacus and a small group of children in the fourth grade,How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that.

This week, we're joined by Pavement superfan, Pierce from Detroit.

[2:47] Pierce, how you doing, motherfucker? I'm good, I'm good. It's good to be here.

Oh, it's great to have you, man.

[2:54] How's the weather in the city right now? It's been unseasonably warm yesterday.

We got close to 60. I think we got to 60.

So you know every people in shorts and uh it's not going to be here forever it's going to be nice today again and then it's going to go you know it's uh we're still in february so.

[3:16] It it's going to be some jacket weather before you know it yeah i bet yeah how about you how what's the what's the weather like there it's been the same here it's been unseasonablylike i wore a vest yesterday instead of a jacket right like kind of nice yeah i mean you know aside from the existential dread but we won't go there yeah i suppose you're right yeah so let'slet's get right to this let's talk about pavement uh you mean my favorite band your favorite band of all time yeah oh man yeah i uh i you know i i kind of i listened to a uh previous episodeand then i you know got my mind you know i'm always jump chomping at the champing at the bit to uh relay my pavement origin story.

So, I mean, I don't even know if it's like, it's not anything spectacular, but I mean, I guess the thing that really strikes me is just how much the band means to me and how much musicmeans to me.

And, you know, so I'm always, you know, looking to knock on somebody's door and tell them about pavement.

[4:26] So where did it all begin? Well, I mean, um, you know, so I came, I found pavement, um, in high school um i uh you know i i was really into just like a lot of corporate rock youknow i was all about like you know back and bc boys which are still i i still like and value those but uh you know i mean it's listening to like the sublime and 311 and you know all thatand And not to say that that's not, if that's your bag, that's your bag, you know, but like I, I, uh, so then in my sophomore year, a friend got me into fish and, um, and so like fish, you know,I, I've had like, I've kind of estranged myself from fish.

Um, and I realized that, uh, starting at the top of a pavement podcast, talking about three 11 and, uh, and fish, I don't know if that's the coolest start, but, uh, you know, so I remembervividly, I got an entertainment weekly fish feature magazine and, uh, I guess the summer of 2000.

[5:45] Summer of 2000 and just going just before going into my junior year in high school and uh there was a fish a to z and key they had uh like a little cartoon of the guitarist treyworshiping at this pedestal with slanted and enchanted like a little a little drawing on it and uh so key he, the A to Z P for fish was pavement.

[6:12] And, uh, I was like, okay, well, I'll check that out.

And, um, you know, I got slanted and enchanted and it just, uh, it was like instantaneous, you know?

[6:23] And, uh, and so then I think the same day I went out to another CD store, I think I bought it from either a local CD store or from Best Buy.

And then I went to another local CD store and i bought the major leagues ep so like wow my first two were like you know slenderman major leagues and uh i was like wow this this iscompletely different but i love it totally so different and so then you know i think within like a couple days i had bought um wowie zowie you know and then i went on uh a week-longsummer uh like a band camp thing to interlocking and uh so i remember being in this school bus and like hearing half a canyon you know and it just it blew my mind i was like in thegarden state natalie totally right i mean the headphones was like this is gonna change you know and uh and i mean um you know the uh the ensuing years of like and even just moments oflike trying to like play it for friends and having them be like oh okay that's cool man but you know and then gradually getting more people into it but yeah I mean man you know it's so it'sjust wild to think that you know.

[7:49] My musical adventure really, I mean, I don't want to like put it all on pavement, but I feel like, like that, that really was the catalyst for so many, so many things that I've, um,discovered and enjoyed in the last 24 years.

[8:07] Talk to me more about that. What does that look like?

Oh man. I mean, so, you know, I'm just, you know, that that was the age of Napster and Audio Galaxy and LimeWire.

And so you'd connect your audio galaxy.

If you connect your you disconnect the phone line and connect it to your computer and then like try to download three songs and then go to sleep.

And then you wake up and like one of the songs would have downloaded and you'd be like, OK, I'm good.

Now i know about dinosaur junior you know it's like they would uh that it was just uh it was a wild time and then yeah then the advent of uh you know you had like music mags like thebig takeover and you had um the starting of pitchfork and so just you know over the last however many many years, just, I mean, it's, we just, we live in a, an age of renaissance.

I mean, the reissues of just classics and never heard classics.

Like I'm into like light Italian library music and like, you know, world music and.

[9:28] These niche like i got into vaporwave over the pandemic and i got into dungeon synth and it's just like it's this exploding cosmos of never-ending musical discovery and at the sametime i mean you know at the end of the day pavement's still my number one favorite yeah you know and and terror twilight is my favorite album of all time okay that's which is i i realizedthat that's uh that's kind of like the one of the wildest takes i could have but sure yeah yeah i mean i just uh yeah i mean i when it comes to pavement i would say every just.

[10:13] Just about every song every release is like i mean there's something so special i i know i don't know if we're supposed to like lead into this or but i'll just say like you know the earlystuff you know know the the original eps and and seven inches that are collected on westing or yeah um it i mean it's just magical i mean uh yeah there's just there's such a swirling vortexof melody and dissonance and feedback and i mean it really it's it's all it's all thanks to those three individuals that you know were just like conjuring some kind of alchemy out of youknow obviously they had they had their their you know pavement they had their artists that were informing them but I mean the way that Malkmus and Scott and and Gary like.

[11:19] Did that i mean it's it's still it's just they could have just done those eps and i would still probably talk with the same reverence but then you know you see you see that line uh andand so you know coming to pavement you know pretty much at the end of pavement without i did too that's So that's my story, too.

[11:41] They, you know, I was able to kind of just, like, find this tome of amazingness.

And, I mean, with the reissues, I mean, there's clearly still so much to be discovered.

I mean, I think we're so fortunate.

I mean, with Terror Toilet being my favorite album, like, that reissue, like, last year or the year before.

I mean that that was like the greatest thing that matador could i i've been like on you know uh mouth miss and pavement message boards crying for this for just so long and i mean idea orsince 2008 rather yeah and um and i mean it just like it really you know minus it's it's it's missing missing you know just one or two tracks from the at home with the groove box with thegroove box comp but i mean i i have that comp so i i also think it's missing for sale the person school of industry oh right like the actual version right right and um you know that's funnytoo because i i was going to mention that later i feel like the brief slide i feel like hold on.

[12:59] Let's come back because we don't mention in the first half at all oh sorry yeah no that's okay Okay.

It's all building up to that. Oh, sure, sure. So, yeah, I mean...

[13:13] You know, I, I, I was able to see one of the, the Central Park shows.

Oh, me too. And, and, oh, awesome.

Which one did you go to? I forget now. I think it was the one on the, I want to say it was on the 10th or 11th of September.

Okay. All right. Yeah. I think that might've been.

[13:36] So I've got the, I've got the poster hanging in the other room.

We went to the third night, which was Thursday night.

Um and i think the night before uh i had some friends that went and it was there was a downpour, okay so i don't go to that one so i guess i'm fortunate oh so you saw the one with the ocsopen don't worry i have a very poor memory okay well that's okay i'll just say you know pavement is my number one and the ocs are by number two really yeah and so that that that thatsung not seeing that particular show um especially that era like that was like the warm slime uh which i i did i saw the vocs the week before and i told them how excited i was for them tobe opening for pavement oh man were they excited oh yeah and and john doyer like signed my uh signed my my albums that i brought and he like gave me a poster i've got the poster thathe gave me like hanging next to the central park pavement poster um yeah but i mean like.

[14:47] You know so that was my at the time my girlfriend now my wife's first time in new york and we like went right up to like we got there probably at like five in the afternoon oh wowand we're like standing right like probably like 20 feet from basically where malchmas would be standing you you know, for the rest of the night.

[15:12] So like, you know, we made it through this marathon set and pretty close to the end, like, I think my wife, my now wife was like, I need to go to the restroom.

Like, I've been standing in this one spot, you know, because as you're standing there, just people continue to compact.

And so eventually you're just kind of stuck, you know, know especially if you want to hold on to your spot um and i was i was standing next to this dude that was like heckling malchus tolike play like deep cuts from like territory which like i'm like thinking in my head like yeah i i want that too but i'm not gonna like not right harass him yeah yeah yeah so that was uh thatwas a really amazing experience and then then we get to see, uh, the Detroit show, um.

[16:12] Not last year, but the year before. 2022, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was also, that was incredible.

I mean, just, wow, what a band, you know? Right, agreed, 100%.

So what's your, okay, so just, you're in a rarefied air with Terra Twilight as your number one.

What is your least ranked?

What's your number five? And I mean, I know these are difficult and often sort of ridiculous questions, too, because it's more like 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, right?

Right, right. I kind of, I bring it on myself when I throw something like that out there.

[16:56] Um but you know i mean i'll say my number five when i first heard brighten the corners i thought that it was my favorite uh i think over time i've come to so with terror twilight ismy number one i think my number two is uh wowie zowie just because i mean it's it's a masterpiece and then then three i think goes to slanted just because again i mean how many timescan you have a masterpiece but they apparently did and then i would say.

[17:34] Brighton and then crooked rain and i i you know i know no disrespect to crooked rain because no of course not this is just you know this is just what it is yeah yeah but i mean um,The other thing is just the hidden tracks, the B-sides.

I mean, I think that really is what, I mean, I don't know.

I would say that the five studio albums are enough to make it like pavement, pavement.

But but then this rich, rich undertow of of just amazing songs that, you know, should have made the albums or, you know, in some cases, for sure, at least, you know, at least we havethem.

Um you know i i really i i heard you mention uh in a previous episode that there's like a seven inch box coming yeah and uh i'm curious what what that looks like is that me too straightsingles or i don't know are we gonna get a remastered clay tracks like Yeah, but the Secret History.

[18:53] You know, they launched that first volume of the Secret History, which is, you know, it's basically just extra tracks from, you know, Slenderman, Enchanted, Lux, and Redux.

Um but you know i feel like crooked rain uh uh the desert sessions and uh and what was that we sent no addition like those those are crying to be double or triple augmented yeah yeah imean you know it always it's interesting because when you're putting something like that I mean, I remember being on the Stephen Malkin's forum once.

And people, you know, when they came out with the first Secret History Volume 1, they were like, I have all these tracks.

But it's like, yeah, I mean, I have those tracks too.

And I don't even think at the time, like, Spotify was what Spotify is.

But, I mean, there's having the tracks, you know, on CD, and then having the tracks on a 45-7 inch or a 12-inch.

But like the joy of being able to put down a two a double lp set or a triple lp set and like flipping it over and having i mean again um what matador did with uh the spit in a stranger ep.

[20:19] Uh you know i mean like that's that was a dream come true i mean i i kind of wish that they did that for the the um major leagues one too but you know i mean that i i did get a 4lpbox set as well from them that kind of combines those two into one disc i want i want uh like you can go out and find the nicene creators uh right in the corners on vinyl yeah um like thebox set like like the reissue.

But the other three are not.

They didn't even issue them on vinyl. So I hope there is, like you say, a reissue of Ellie's Desert Origins and Sorted Sandals and Blacks and Redux.

I sure hope that happens. And then I do hope they come out with a Bright in the Corners one again because right now you can only find it on Discogs and it's like 300 bucks.

I know. And you know, when I first bought that, I bought it for like, you know, list price for like 90 bucks for Mandador, I couldn't buy it fast enough, right? Right. And then...

[21:28] They sat on them for so long because again people i remember that there was a strong reaction to it was like why am i buying this i already bought this as a double cd set and i'mlike nice you're missing the point here this is amazing right yeah and uh and so i ended up buying like two copies for like 20 dollars or something liquidated from matador because theywere just like they couldn't get rid of them fast enough of the vinyl boxes of the vinyl boxes so i was like giving them i gave two out for like christmas or birthday presents what the hell iknow and you know i mean hindsight it's 2020 right i wish that i had uh built my empire but you know i mean um i mean i i can't really see them doing that for the for the first threebecause i but you know i mean who am i to you know weigh in on on what matador will or won't do i mean right we'd have to imagine they like money they're gonna keep monetizing thiscatalog in any way they can what it looks like is what it looks like is anyone's guess right yeah right right but i mean you.

[22:44] Know it not to beat a dead horse here but that that tear twilight's i mean like i just i love you know because then following malchus into his solo career i mean there's just so manygreat you know demos and songs that are in with what i presume is the groove box or you know kind of proto uh groove denied and i mean i mean rooftop gambler corpus and the handgrenade those are like Two of my favorite songs. Wow.

[23:17] I just love it. I love it so much.

Damn. Well, I wonder if you're going to like the song that we're covering today.

Oh, definitely. Should we get ready to give it a spin? Let's do it.

All right. We'll see you on the other side with track number 37 on the countdown.

Hey, this is Bob Nestanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

Track 2:

[23:39] And now on with a countdown. 37. Mmm.

Track 4:

[25:38] So there we have it. Debris Slide is the first song on the countdown from Perfect Sound Forever.

It's a 1990 EP.

This song is side two, track two. It's Debris Slide. What are you thinking here, Pierce, from Detroit?

Oh, man. I mean, it's classic, right?

I mean, I would say, you know, know when i think about the the tracks from the first few eps the first you know perfect sound forever slate tracks demolition plot g7 you kind of have agrab bag of like just kind of wild, noisy experimental quote-unquote pop and then you know occasionally they're gonna throw in like those capital s songs to kind of anchor out you knowand kind of uh totally give it give it a little bit more substance so i think you know if if you were to be looking for the song uh to play for someone off of you know westing by musket andsextant outside of summer babe i mean that And even that, I can't really say that, because, like, Baptist Black Tick.

[26:59] Box Elder. Box Elder. I mean, and so I feel like Debris Light kind of takes, like, the song, the songiness.

It's not the song, Box Elder, but it's the songiness, the kind of verse, chorus, verse, chorus. Yeah.

Distilled. and then it marries it with like all of the wild zany scuzzy distortion and it's got like that frantic energy which you know i'm sure you and and anybody listening to pavementrealizes but it was definitely eye-opening to me when i started first like playing records out like pavement doesn't have a whole lot of amps up tunes, you know, like, like they have, youknow, unfair and they have, uh, you know, flux equals rad.

And there's, I mean, there's a host of other songs that like have a, have a, I mean, embassy row.

Right. But like for the most part, pavements wheelhouse is, um, you know, just.

[28:15] Uh a song that opens up and is uh is just kind of giving you this walking tour of uh milk missus uh thesaurus and dictionary and guitar traps um so like so this song is really it's kindof a weird one because i mean i feel like you know normally you're getting just these these really weird, you know, similes and metaphors and, and weird word placements.

And this one is kind of like, he's just playing with like homonyms, you know, he's like, and I mean, it's great. It's, uh.

[29:00] Without wanting to make a completely wrong, um, hot take, you know, it's kind of like, uh, i don't know like just just like a you know punky yeah you know kind of tossed off itdefinitely i mean that that's that's one of the attributes that's so fantastic about all these early songs is just how uh like easy it sounds to them like they're just inventing magic if you if youwere were to listen to just the music without the melody and lyrics it would sound like a pretty hardcore song you know i was gonna say like black flag and you know i just like got intoblack flag in the last year or so um and and so and i know that that that was an influence i mean uh.

[29:57] It really it's it's kind of unusual for for pavement but at the same time you can see why you know it it became a perennial favorite for like setlist and also i mean i feel like it thissong maybe in particular informs so much of slanted you know i mean yeah well it's so melodic like it's got a great melody it's got the bop bop bops you know make you nod your headand throw you back to a different time uh like a music making and yet they do it so it's almost flippant like it's really it's really pretty cool that they're yeah you know almost thumbingtheir nose at this traditional pop but they're performing it at the same time yeah really really fucking cool yeah and then you know uh i was gonna mention it earlier um just the uh.

[30:54] The ba-ba-ba-da-ba's kind of are referenced again all those years later by Scott with For Sale, the Preston School of Industry. I mean, I don't know.

[31:09] That just came to me just before we were getting on.

I was like, I don't know in the back of my head if there are any other pavement songs with ba-ba-ba-da-ba going on in them.

Um well there's a lot that like have something that rings similar to that right like you think cut your hair you think um uh painted soldiers um okay just off the top of my head uh yeah youknow thinking about it quickly but there yeah there it is almost a pavement hallmark this you know this melodic sort of la la la kind of thing yeah you know um yeah obviously not likelike rock solid blueprint because there is no blueprint for this stuff.

They, you know, they just, when you think, you know, the answer, they change the questions, you know? So where, so what are you thinking?

This song comes in at number 37. Is it properly rated?

Is it overrated? Is it underrated?

Where, where should it have appeared in your mind?

No, it's hard because I think, you know, I, I've participated in any number of threads, you know, your top 10, your top 20.

[32:29] What are your favorite Pavement songs? And I mean, I feel like because this band means so much to me, I kind of tend to dig a little bit deeper.

I mean, like, from the perfect sound forever, I mean, Angel Carver Blues, Melodjazz Duck, that would probably be my pick from here, or even Heckler Spray.

But, you know, just because I love all these songs doesn't mean Cut Your Hair isn't amazing, right?

Right, exactly, yeah. I would say, you know...

I think this song is pretty well-rated.

[33:21] I mean, again, with a band this expansive and with such awesome tunes, I mean, they're going to take you some places.

So, like, I don't really feel like any top 20 or 50 is going to look, I mean, you know, I've got, like I said to you earlier, like the porpoise and the hand grenade rooftop.

I mean, those that go in my top 10, and I don't think that would really, I mean, I really, I just love it. You're a big haul guy.

[34:05] Uh but i mean i i i love debris slide so i i would say it's perfectly rated oh well i love it that's great well pierce it's been wonderful talking to you this afternoon yeah thanks forputting up with my uh oh shit this it's always great talking to people yeah after doing this for three years just with myself i'm like kicking myself why didn't i have people on earlier earlierit makes it so much easier no this is this is so cool and uh super you're super easy to talk to um i and and so i i really relish the opportunity i'll jump at the chance of talking about aboutthis music as often as i can uh i don't know if you you want me to uh set up my uh my, my pitch here, uh, throw it, throw in a little, so I've got, uh, a website that I started, um, um.

[35:06] Just last year, and it's kind of based off of a cartoon that I drew like maybe 15 years ago.

But it's like a mixtape slash comics website.

It's kind of like loosely based around paranormal peanuts, kind of gumshoe ghost.

And he, uh, he researches capers and it's a lot of nonsense, uh, uh, non sequiturs.

And then a lot of mixes that, you know, feature pavement and the fall and Sunra and, um, all, all, all manner of things.

So that the name of the website is ghostropolis.com.

Ghostropolis.com. Yep. Yep, g-h-o-s-t-r-o-t-o-l-i-s.com. And it's Ghostropolis Radio.

You can also do GhostropolisRadio.com.

So if you put Ghostropolis in the Google machine, you'll likely get where you need to go. I think so.

From the fertile mind of Pierce from Detroit, Ghostopolis.com.

[36:22] Ghostropolis. Ghostropolis. Oh, shit, I just fucked it up already.

Oh, you're good. no hey i appreciate it man all right buddy i appreciate you thanks so much for doing this all right thanks for having me all right wash your goddamn hands.

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jD is back and he's joined by Daniel from Chicago to discuss his Pavement origin story and dissect track number 38.

Transcript:

[0:00] Hey, it's JD here, and I just wanted to throw something down, somewhat of a challenge to all you musically inclined folks out there.

We are going to be doing a pod list again this year, and a pod list is simply a podcast playlist.

It's a pod list. The previous four pod lists have consisted of talented members of our Pavement community submitting songs that they have covered from the Pavement oeuvre.

Pavement adjacent songs are also welcome. So you could do PSOI, you could do Jicks, you could do Malcolm is Solo.

Anything is fair game, truly. So get your band together or grab an acoustic guitar and just play your fucking guts out.

From there, submit the song to me by email and we'll go from there.

So please submit those songs, jd at meetingmalkmus.com, or even better, use wetransfer.com if it's a big WAV file. And WAV files are what I prefer.

That will work out just magnificently. That's what she said.

Podlist 5 coming July 8th. So get those songs in and be a part of something special. Thanks so much.

Now, on with the show.

Track 3:

[1:24] Previously on the pavement top 50.

Track 2:

[1:27] What do you have to say dan from rochester about playbook oh man so um first of all when i i listened to this a lot this week and there's three versions so i did some some deepdiving into comparing the different like studio versions that are out there but the first thing that surprised me was the length is relatively short it's slightly less than three and a half minutesand to me that song always felt like very epic.

Track 3:

[1:58] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band, Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 4:

[2:05] Hey, it's J.D. here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for the seminal indie rock band, Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballots.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a six-pack.

[2:24] Okay, there were only four left, but I was thirsty. see how will your favorite pavement song fare in the ranking you'll need to tune in to find out so there's that this week we're joinedby pavement superfan daniel daniel how are you doing motherfucker uh doing good how are you i am excellent today it's a bright and sunny day out i did a 10k walk it's uh just fantastic itis a good day it's like i'm in chicago and it's uh 50 degrees and so that's like summer so yeah right to have that in february is like just another another planet it's amazing yeah so let's getright into this let's talk about your pavement origin story daniel from chicago i am from a town in the south called montgomery alabama Okay.

And I'm also 45, late Gen Xer.

Discovering music in the early 90s, you really had to try to search out cool stuff, and especially in a shitty town like Montgomery, Alabama. Alabama.

[3:42] There were like only one record store that was independent and you kind of had to like know a person to get there. And.

[3:52] So that's a big part of my origin story is I am from a shitty place.

And the more I get to know pavement, I realize that Stockton is a lot like Montgomery.

It's strip malls and crime and not a lot to do, not a lot of real culture.

So I see that connection now.

When I was a teenager, I was into classic rock like Neil Young and Bob Dylan and Steve Miller Band, I guess, was my intro to what my dad showed me about rock and roll.

But I started 10th grade and I noticed a guy had the iconic pavement sunny side up shirt. Right.

And I said, this guy knows something. He kind of shined with this aura.

And at the time, I didn't know much about indie rock or alternative rock.

But I knew a lot about film.

I was into Tarantino, and that led me to John Woo and other independent film.

[5:17] I knew a lot about beat literature, like Kerouac and Ginsberg, Burroughs.

So we met, and he helped me with the pavement and the Sonic Youth. We traded CDs.

I traded VHS, independent film, with him.

And we eventually started a shitty noise band in his garage.

Oh, that is so cool. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about Pavement and Sonic Youth, Daydream Nation.

At the time, I think Crooked Rain was the big one, and Wowie was pretty big on our playlist.

List um but i'm really thankful for that meeting and his taste was just um beyond anything of people from montgomery so i that's my story and i i continue to love pavement my entire lifehas been my favorite band and i felt very special uh having them as a part of my life and i i'm not sure who it was that said.

[6:38] I think it might be Mark Arm from Mudhunt Honey said, when you listen to Pavement, you feel smarter.

And I feel like I'm in on some kind of secret.

Yeah. And I feel enlightened when I listen to Stephen Moutmiss and his poetry and his lyrics.

I feel smarter. And coming from a place of like education was not valued and no culture, it meant a lot for me to like have pavement as this kind of avant-garde art band that led me todifferent bigger cities and bigger ideas.

Is so so what was take take me through your experience daniel take me through that so you saw him wearing the sunny side up shirt what was the first spin like like what did you spin firstif you remember i remember and and what was going on in your head when you heard it i got crooked crooked rain crooked rain first and i remember the disc and people these days missout on the artwork of the disc right it's got that layer of like kind of red and maroon art.

[8:01] And i spun it and i was like first off i've never heard uh a vocalist sound like this before right and i was like is he singing or is he like speaking um and they're in the liner notesthere's a picture of like a singer but i always thought it was that that was mouth mess or that was spiral stairs i wasn't sure but it turns out it's like just a random collage um i wasn't sure ifthe the singer was playing guitar or was just like singing.

Wow. Like something from a different world completely. And unlike any music.

[8:46] That i've uh ever encountered even since it's um now i can kind of associate what not miss was doing with like lou reed yes big time uh but at the time it was just like what is thisvocalist doing and then there were parts of the guitar playing it was like kind of dissonant guitar and i was like is are these guitars even in tune like it sounds like noise in some parts but somelodic and others and so melodic and others and that's their secret yeah um.

[9:25] And then i started listening to the lyrics um the first song that comes to mind i wrote on my uh we used to have book covers of paper to cover the book i wrote the entire uh lyrics forstop breathing this is like the most poetic I don't know what he's talking about but I was also I went to it like an art high school and I was in creative writing and I would do my best to tryto emulate in my poetry what mountainous was doing with like his prose or his lyrics right Right, okay.

So he was talking about, I think, stuff around a father-son relationship in that song, and I had struggles with my dad, and as we all probably do.

Sure. And I was like, abstractly, he's talking about stuff that is really hitting home.

And so there were some songs I didn't get at first, like...

[10:39] But yeah we'll talk about some of that stuff later sure okay yeah um so that was your first experience with them and crooked rain what a great jumping off point and just to followup on you know like who's playing what and what are they doing it wasn't like you could tune into mtv at the time and see a great deal of pavement you know and and sort of match it uplike you could with with other bands.

You know, in this case, they were so rarefied.

It would be tough to get your hands on, you know, live footage or anything like that. So that leads me to my next question.

When did you see them live? Did you see them live?

First, my first concert by them was.

[11:28] It must have been early my first semester at auburn university i went uh started uh 97, i went to birmingham alabama at a place called the nick i think that's what it is and so it musthave been september or october of 1997 and it was a like maybe uh, 100, 200 person venue. It was a very small venue.

And me and my two friends from Auburn, we got there nerdy, super early and waited at the rail of the front row.

[12:18] And it turns out that we were right across from Spiral Stairs guitar setup.

Okay. And it was in support of Right in the Corners.

So, amazing show.

I think at the time, what they were doing was they were playing about 15 songs with an encore of three songs. And they played Credence.

Sinister Purpose was their cover that they played.

And they they had their set list on paper plates which i thought was very diy and cool and spiral at the end of the set uh he picked up his paper plate threw it like a frisbee and i caught it soi had the the set list i don't have it anymore but oh damn one time it was in my dorm it was in a collection as i moved around the country of course of course but i wish i had had thatamazing moment.

Probably, I would say it's probably my third or fourth concert ever. Um, and.

[13:35] I went to REM and Radiohead in support of Monster. That was my first.

So it's in good company.

Yeah, I bet. So how did you find like-minded people in uni?

Was it easy or did you have to seek them out like you did in high school?

Or how did you find your compatriots to go to that show with?

This is so funny. uh the first day of english class the teacher asked what what what do we like and get to know you ice icebreaker questions and me and this guy cleave we both put thesame bands we really liked pavement number one lemon heads number two rem number three we we wrote those identically, and it's it's like this uh serendipitous kind of thing happenedwith us and we became, very close friends and at the time he was like really into pink floyd and i said hey man you got to get really back into pavements better than pink floyd so weobsess over our mutual love of malchmas and uh pavement so that that's how that connection happened but other times in my life i've never really found someone who says pavement's myfavorite band and maybe you're my probably my.

[15:04] Like third person i they always seem to be like a french band no one is like so obsessed like i am or possibly you are.

And that's okay with me. Like, this is something, it's very special kind of in this time where everything feels like homogenized.

I'm glad that this is a special thing for a few of us.

Yeah, I think so too. We can unite in that, unite in our solodom.

In our solitude. dude. Um, What's your go-to record these days?

[15:51] Well, it's grown. It's changed over time. Of course. As it should, probably.

I think the most bang for your buck and artistic expression of what they represent is Wowie Zowie.

Sure. Yeah, I can get behind that. It is their version of the White Album in that it is so many different genre attempts.

And it feels loose it feels fun um it's thematically all over the place yeah and, i just it just feels like a real expression of what they were going for as a band yeah i i i'm not sure if it's likethe best album but for me i think it feels like pavement and what they wanted um and the the go-to for me i hope it makes your list is uh grave architecture okay i find that to bequintessential uh a pavement song but yeah Yeah, it's just so all over the place and wacky that I love it.

What do you say we take a quick break and we come back on the other side of track number 38?

Sounds good. All right, cool.

Track 3:

[17:18] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

And now on with a countdown.

Track 2:

[17:26] 38.

Track 4:

[20:04] Alright, track 38 is Date with Ikea, the first spiral jam on the countdown.

It's the fifth from Pavement's fourth record, Bright in the Corners, after Blue Hawaiian at 50, Embassy Row at 44, Old to Begin at 43, and Starlings of the Slipstream at 40.

Without further ado, number 38, Date with Ikea.

Daniel from Chicago.

Hey. Talk to me about your experience with this song.

Well, it was the first Pavement album that I was able to buy on its release date.

So it has a special place.

It was released, I think it's April 17th, 1997.

97 and i good went to my local mall and walked in and bought this album and, it's a banger it's a really fucking good album and 100% it's it it rocks and this song is a rocker and you feellike there's some shimmering layered guitar going on yeah Yeah. Um.

[21:30] I'm not sure what the song's about. It feels like... Tough to discern.

At the time, I didn't know what Ikea was.

Now I know. I think it's a Norwegian furniture store, wholesale furniture.

[21:50] So now I think I know what the meaning of the song is.

Because I've had a date with Ikea. I bought a house, and I've had to go to Ikea to celebrate needing furniture.

And I remember going to Ikea going, oh, this is what the song is about.

Maybe domestication.

Maybe it's a union.

I like domestication. Yeah. But the lyrics are about a relationship strife.

The actress is always breaking things. That made me think something's going wrong in the relationship or he's annoyed with his partner.

Not sure. But Spiral's songs have always had their own feel to them.

And this feels like a quintessential uh spiral stairs song not what what else does it sound like in those years maybe uh like super chunk like no pocky for kitty, i don't know if you know ofany other bands that might sound like but.

[23:08] No, because it's tough, because his cuts sort of stand alone on a pavement record, because they're so radically different than the stuff that SM does, right?

I think that's what I'm trying to get at, yeah.

[23:24] But lyrically, you can go down the same bottomless pit with both of their lyrics.

I think Malk tends to be, he's got the turn of phrase, right?

He's got the gift for a turn of phrase in a way that Spiral doesn't necessarily have the same horsepower at this stage in the game.

If you listen to PSOI, like that first record, All This Sounds Gas, man, is he firing on all cylinders on that record.

I think so. So that is prime beef.

And I love it. Uh, his two outings on brighten the corners are both, you know, I think they're both a great jumping off point for what you need to get from, from spiral. That's just my take.

I think you're right. Uh, the idea that it can be on the same album and feel so different.

[24:25] Right. And I'm okay with that. Sort of their secret weapon in a way, right i think so i there and i'm in a lot of ways i'm not sure uh spirals influence on what mountainous does that'skind of a mystery i i believe it showed up more on probably slanted and yeah the early stuff yeah the eps off the top i think they were much more collaborative collaborative but i'm likingwhat i hear this this is a rocker this feels like it's got the.

[25:04] Almost like a classic rock feel to it of maybe tom petty in there and the heartbreakers, but um got the sing-along chorus here's the a weird thing about uh the spiral Spiral stuff.

When I would go to the shows, the crowd would cheer so much for Spiral.

It was almost like we were rooting for this underdog.

[25:40] And when spiral was playing his, uh, cuts like mountainous, what it seemed like he didn't know what he was supposed to be doing.

He would not, he wouldn't have a guitar part to it. He, he would just kind of like Panama. I'm playing guitar.

And, but I noticed how much the crowd would get behind, uh, like spirals chance to shine.

Shine so you happen to see any dates on the most recent tour in 2022 i did i saw one of the chicago okay i found that steve was much more uh on board with the spiral stuff if if for lack ofa better term if he wasn't on board in the earlier years and i don't know that i'm i'm prescribing that on him.

I shouldn't, but I sort of am.

And I just feel like they were much more cohesive, like band-wise, this time out.

I saw the same thing, and I think I read in interviews where Mountmess before had seemed kind of apprehensive to put his ball in the pavement court, per se.

He was very much on board with being a band that was reuniting and good vibes in general yeah but at the time i think what you notice about uh.

[27:07] Bright in the corners is oh he's starting to get his own voice mountainous right and it's, it has to feel um daunting to have other people in the band wanting to collaborate whenyou're you're like really finding your groove.

So with Wowie, there's, I think, maybe one spiral cut, Brighton two, but then with Terror zero, you're starting to see, Mount Missus realizing that I have something to say and I want it tobe the singular vision.

[27:53] That's just my take. I add a lot of meaning and interpretation that might not be there.

No, that's what we do with our favorite bands, right?

They add, they give us that to sort of interpret. But I feel like.

[28:09] Mount miss really was hitting his groove and maybe spiral was hitting his groove as well and they just it was a sign that they needed to take some time off hey listen i don't want tomake this comparison too apt but it's interesting to me that having watched the beatles documentary george is shut out of that song and then he immediately rips off all things must passwhich which is a double record, which just shows like how he had all these songs in the bag.

And it's like, how did John and how did John and Paul not include any of his stuff on Let It Be?

And then, you know, 40 years later or 30 years later, you have Terror Twilight, which I think is sorely lacking a spiral song.

Like, I think that there's part of that record that, that, you know, because a lot of people, it's their number five.

And I think it's their number five, because it doesn't sound like a pavement record, necessarily.

It sounds lush and rich, production-wise.

I continue to call it a beta test for Steve's first solo record.

[29:27] It's just interesting to me that it's lacking this something, and I think that something is a Spiral Gem. you might be on to something with that.

And, and I'm, I'm, I'm, while I'm glad they both had a great solo careers, um, it is, it's sort of missing something.

Yeah. So where do you think in terms of the ranking, this comes in at 38, what do you think, uh, is it properly rated?

Is it overrated? Is it underrated? Uh.

[30:02] I'm a little, I've been thinking about this. I think it might be overrated.

If you would have asked me in 1997, I would have said it should be up there in the 30s.

I don't think this has aged for me as well as it should have. I don't know.

[30:25] Nowadays, I listen to Brighton and I go, what's the song three on there?

Oh, he had to ask me that.

I'm cool and underqualified is who I am. I don't have that stuff at my fingertips. No, I've got this.

So if you listen to Transport is Arranged. Okay.

Going right into Old to Begin. Yeah. Those...

It kind of is in between transport and old to begin.

And I feel like those are like way stronger songs.

Like, and also those are songs where Malcolm is really starting to have his own voice.

And it's like very unique rock.

And I think those songs, since I heard old to begin, it's like 44 or 43.

I I think it's I think those two songs Transport and Old to Begin, are better than Date with Ikea so for some reason I'm feeling like.

[31:40] The lack of cohesion of this album, give it a shot, listen to it without Date With Ikea.

It's a different album, and it's an interesting choice by the engineers and the producers to put Date in between those two.

I think it should be ranked lower. I'm sorry, JD. No, that's okay.

That's why I asked the question.

[32:08] Hopefully uh transport somewhere in the top 50 i think that's such a a fucking rocker and it's so heavy at the end um but yeah i would put date and probably in my uh, a little bitlower would it crack the top 50 still i don't think so i if i'm going to be completely honest it's going to be in the lower 50 maybe 60s or 70s okay wow you heard it here here first folks stilllove it chicago still love it though it's one of his children but he just disparaged it uh daniel do you have anything that you would like to plug at all is there anything that you're known foron the internet or oh let me tell you i am a therapist here in chicago and i uh as you can see by my uh many plaques on the wall i'm trained to do uh psychotherapy Therapy in the westernsuburbs of Chicago.

If you know anyone that wants therapy or wants to try it out for the first time, I specialize in anxiety, depression, addiction, and men's issues.

Oh, boy. I ticked a few of those boxes.

[33:26] My greatest hits right there. Yeah. Well, it's been great talking to you, and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. So thanks for that.

Thank you for having me on. It's my pleasure.

Wash your goddamn hands.

Track 3:

[33:43] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcomus, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you.

If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email.

JD at meetingmalcomus.com.

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jD is back and he's with Dan from Rochester to discuss track 39!

Transcript:

[0:00] Hey, it's JD here, and I just wanted to throw something down, somewhat of a challenge to all you musically inclined folks out there.

We are going to be doing a pod list again this year, and a pod list is simply a podcast playlist.

It's a pod list. The previous four pod lists have consisted of talented members of our Pavement community submitting songs that they have covered from the Pavement Ouvra.

Pavement adjacent songs are also welcome. So you could do PSOI, you could do Jicks, you could do Malcolm is Solo.

Anything is fair game, truly. So get your band together or grab an acoustic guitar and just play your fucking guts out.

From there, submit the song to me by email and we'll go from there.

So please submit those songs, jd at meetingmalkmus.com, or even better, use wetransfer.com if it's a big WAV file. And WAV files are what I prefer.

That will work out just magnificently. That's what she said.

Podlist 5 coming July 8th, so get those songs in and be a part of something special. Thanks so much.

Now, on with the show. Previously on the.

Track 2:

[1:26] Pavement Top 50 So Cam from Toronto What do you think Of Starlings of the Slipstream This is a great little song I love I love this song just as a stand alone item I love this songGoing right into the song Finn To wrap up that album But those might actually be My two favorite songs Right in the corners What a great one to punch to close things out Finn isprobably actually my favorite song on that album.

Track 4:

[2:05] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 Ballads.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and six boxes of M&Ms.

How will your favorite song fare in this ranking? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that.

[2:31] This week, we're joined by Pavement superfan, Dan from Rochester.

[2:35] I can see you right across the lake dan hey toronto oh do you remember when there was the ferry for a couple years i heard tales of that yeah yeah people were more interested ingoing to toronto from rochester and i don't think the torontans were very interested in coming here unfortunately i thought it was a cool i thought that's that's what i heard yeah yeah iwould have uh i would love if that was still a thing because uh driving to toronto you have to go all around the lake so yeah exactly it's the shortcut you know it was it was totally perfect inever used it but it was totally yeah yeah so let's talk let's talk about pavement yes let's this is this is why we're all here why we're all gathered around the fire to listen to rochester regale uswith his pavement origin story yeah so take us set the scene yeah set the scene so the scene was the the mid-90s and uh you know i was in high school and uh getting into into music anduh basically you know the internet was new um you couldn't really download songs you know if i needed if i had to if i wanted to hear a song i had to buy the cd so it was kind of uh youknow i had limited funds and limited accessibility to get to a cd store you know we had the one um one place it It was called Media Play.

It was like a chain that sold CDs, you know, so it's kind of like a Best Buy or whatever.

[4:02] Okay. So, you know, that was, you know, that was what I had to do.

So I would sometimes take a chance on bands or CDs that I'd heard about.

[4:12] And I had gotten really into R.E.M.

And they were like my favorite band during that time. And so I heard about this band called Pavement that had a song about R.E.M., which I thought was so cool.

[4:27] So I ended up getting that CD, the No Alternative compilation.

I remember that one. Yeah, and it had Nirvana on it, and it had Smashing Pumpkins and a bunch of big bands from that time, and it had Pavement.

And so yeah, I got that. So that was the first Pavement song I heard. Yeah.

[4:47] And, you know, it was cool. I just loved the novelty because of, you know, a band singing about another band. I just thought it was funny, you know.

Sort of meta in a way now. out yeah yeah it was so cool and that really put them on my on the map for me because i was like i was seeking out all the rem stuff all the b-sides you knowand i had a book and stuff so yeah just hearing about that i was like i have to hear that so you know and it was cool you know i loved the song i was starting to move kind of from that likealt rock um kind of scene to getting getting into the more indie stuff and, uh, whatever it was about, uh, pavement, what I had read about, you know, really piqued my interest.

And then hearing that song, you know, and it wasn't, I would say like, it's not my favorite pavement song, but like, you know, it's, it's cool.

It was fun. I liked it probably now. Yeah. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, and then, uh, and then this was probably in, I I'm guessing just cause of the release date.

Yeah. 99. So So probably like months before Pavement broke up, I was doing this.

[5:57] And I went to the media play and I bought one of the cheaper CDs that I could find, which I have right here, which is the Spit on a Stranger single EP. Nice.

Because it was cost effective, you know? It had five songs and it was pretty cheap.

So I don't remember what else they had available at the time, but I took a shot on this and I took it home.

I listened to Spit on a Stranger. I loved it.

[6:22] I skipped to the porpoise and the hand grenade because I liked the title and you know that song I thought it was good didn't blow me away I don't think but then I went back to tracktwo harness your hopes and that was that was really the one that that cemented it for me that song really yeah which is is awesome because as we know it's a big Spotify hit now in thestreaming era.

[6:44] And uh it was back in in 99 that was the hit for me and my friends too we we all really love that that song so uh so that was the one that did it for me and then i started uh startedcollecting them all so and here we are i guess you got into it too right at the right at the point where they started to do the reissues so you were yeah able to get those yeah it was greattiming because yeah that's a good point even though like the band had broken up by that point you know a few years later i was in college and uh for the first time in my life hanging outwith people who also knew who pavement were and the slanted reissue was coming out and it was like a big deal and everyone you know some people were new to pavement so i got tobe like oh you got to hear this you know and so yeah we were it was good times for sure it's it's always cool when you get to be somebody's sherpa you know yeah right that's exactly justguiding them through this you know this mountainous uh region of songs that they don't know exactly yeah yeah and um you know i I had a, I had a radio show at school, so it was fun,uh, digging up all the, all the weird stuff to play and, uh, everyone hanging out.

What was your playlist like on, on the radio?

Um, you know, uh, let's see, Guided by Voices, of course, big one.

[8:09] Um, I, I was into bands like, uh, there's this band, Idlewild, who had just released a record that I thought was really cool.

Okay. You know, just all the class, you know, Matador stuff, Yola Tango, of course.

Yeah. And, you know, I would get into some weirder stuff, too.

Like, you know, I'd play the shags or like, you know, Captain Beepart or, you know, eclectic stuff.

Pretty classic. Oh, that must have been fun. Freeform, like college radio.

Yeah. Yeah. It was super fun.

All my friends were music nerds, you know, so it was just it was a big party every week week hanging out on people's shows and just coming up with cool creative weird uh musicalthings to do so and you know pavement was like the the guiding light you know it was like the the band that united everyone.

[8:58] That's so cool because that's i didn't get that experience at all i still you know that was one of the reasons i started the show initially was just i didn't get people to i didn't have peoplein my life to really talk about pavement with so yeah i was like i'll talk about i'll stand on my soapbox and talk into the ether sometimes yeah sometimes it's rare you know to to get tointeract with yeah people like like that you know i met lots of cool people doing it like including it It seems like you have.

Yeah. Yeah, man.

So if you had to rank the records, you came to Terror Twilight.

That would have been your first record that was released in your fandom.

Right, right. Where does it rank for you? You know, I always say to myself, like, they're all pretty much more or less equal, equal ranked.

I mean, they're all like five star records to me. Agreed. Um, I went through a phase where, um, brighten the corners was my favorite.

That was definitely my favorite. And I would say it's not anymore.

[10:03] Um, I, I don't know if terror twilight has spent too much time on the top, like the, you know, the, yeah, the personal top slot, but, uh.

[10:11] It, it, it deserves, it deserves a spot.

You know, I've, um, I've talked to, you know, I have friends who consider that their pavement pavement record and i always say i respect that because some people some people uh viewthat one as maybe like slightly less for some reason and i don't i don't get that at all yeah i don't get that at all and uh yeah i mean we we need terror twilight you know it's just uh the factthat pavement made that record with uh nigel godrich and had that kind of cool uh shiny production production um yeah i mean that's that's so crazy to go from slanted to the back rightand then you have everything in between so it's just yeah it's all it's all good it's all great yeah yeah terror twilight spent some time at the top for me yeah um not not that much but uhbreak the corners is currently my favorite oh nice yeah yeah uh beside watery like i mean i think watery deserves a spot.

[11:08] On the mantle all to itself like that's kind of like a very perfect release you know it's like isn't it yeah it's so crazy how good that fucking thing is yeah and then even the even the thesession tracks that didn't make it to the sumi jack greenland greenlander so right like they're all stone cold classics it's bonkers it is it's absolutely bonkers yeah and having those allcollected on on that reissue was just it's so great um i would always listen to those peel session things you know yeah like kentucky cocktail and all that and.

[11:48] Back when they were just bootlegs you know just like a tape someone made off the radio so it's it's really nice that um they released proper you know nice sounding quality versionsof those because because westing is on final now right yeah yep yeah i don't have it but uh i i should probably get it because i've got the eps but i've got them built into my wall is likeartwork work you know oh yeah uh like um here i'll show you how cool yeah i have never i've never encountered uh one of those in the flesh um one of those actual eps you know so that'spretty cool yeah it's fun i'll turn on my light for some somehow there we go i'm an old man when it comes to this technology jesus yes right you're doing great i used to do so well i used toknow know at all internet wise and shit but now it's uh well enough about me it happens is there anything else you want to tell us about your pavement origin story should we uh take abreak and you know that pretty much covers it i got you know this again it was early internet so i was i was rocking like the uh the pavement message board back in the day there was alittle community yeah um and uh it it was it was cool it was good times you know i i met some people there that But later on, I actually got to meet in person.

And for a few years, that was a pretty cool scene.

[13:13] I remember the message board got bought out by another band somehow.

I don't even know how that was possible. What? Yeah.

So one day, you show up to the message board URL.

It was like ProBoards or something where it was like, anyone can start a message board. but I think some other band somehow had the clout or the money or whatever to buy the URL.

And, uh, it's like, yeah.

Oh man.

[13:44] How about shows have you seen any shows oh i knew this was going to come up i have never seen pavement oh that's that's fine i i have seen mulchmas um but yeah you know imissed them uh in the 90s just a little too young coming in late i missed them in the 2010s i don't know really what i was up to but i was kind of um just not in the right area like i mean ilive in rochester i i always have to drive and sometimes i'm just not not up for it and then the newest one i was i was kind of eyeing uh toronto but yeah i didn't make it so oh man i knowbut i've listened to so many live pavement uh bootlegs and shows and stuff uh but yeah my first time seeing mulchmas was on piglib tour oh right you know this is back in college erathat's really when i started going to shows a lot so yeah we went and saw him at the knitting knitting factory i think it was in new york yeah yeah and i saw him open for radiohead i sawhim open for radiohead too in montreal yeah oh sweet yeah yeah mine was uh where was it i think i want to say uh like baltimore area oh cool dc yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well if you getthe chance i mean it seems like Like, they're on the clock.

[15:06] You know? Like, I don't know that we're going to get many more.

Yeah, I really should. I know it's, you know, I know it'll be amazing.

Next time you get the opportunity, right? You have to pull the ripcord.

Yeah, I need to. That'll be so cathartic.

Well, let's take a quick break here, and we'll come back, and we'll talk about track number 39.

Okay Alright Hey this is Bob Nastanovich from Pavement Thanks for listening and now on With a countdown 39.

[19:08] Okay, we are back, and that was, of course, Pueblo, the 16th track on Wowie's Alley. It sits between Kennel District and Half a Canyon in a nice little sandwich there toward theback end of the record.

This is the fourth Wowie's Alley song on the countdown after Best Friend's Arm at 49.

Motion suggests itself at 48, and We Dance at 46.

So this is so far the highest ranking Wowie's Alley track at 39.

And uh what do you have to say Dan from Rochester about Pueblo?

Oh man so um first of all when I I listened to this a lot this week and there's three versions so.

[19:46] I did some some deep diving into comparing the different like studio versions that are out there but the first thing that surprised me was the length is relatively short it's slightly lessthan three and a half minutes And to me, that song always felt like very epic to me, maybe just because it's sandwiched toward the end of like, you know, the end of a long, epic record.

It's right by like half a canyon and it kind of it vibes with that song.

But I would have if you had asked me before how long it was, I would have said like five minutes or something just because it's it has a very languid pace in it.

It kind of just sprawls all over the place of language. Thank you. Yes.

[20:30] Yeah. So, you know, it felt bigger, I guess, longer than it really is.

But, you know, it does what it does in a relatively short time. So that's cool.

That really led me on the path to kind of figuring out like, hey, what's going on with the song structure, you know? And it's a simple song, but it has a kind of like spacey jam in the center.Sure does.

And that's like, to steal your word, epic. Those guitar swells?

Swells yeah you know they make this song so epic and then that blistering blistering is the wrong word because it's not blistering it's it's it's not languid anymore but yeah it's it's crushingit's heavy fucking great so yeah right yeah oh yeah you know um yeah so i i love that that's good mix of, you know, that's the wowie zowie like archetypal sound.

It's like the noise, the, the beauty, the catharsis, the kind of surreal, you know, you don't even know really what the song's about until I listened to your earlier episode, which was geez,like three years ago when you first talked about the song on your show and you were, you told a story about how it was about like a hanging thing.

[21:48] And remember this at all. Yeah. So I think it was something Malkmus said.

It was like, uh, like a story about some, a guy, like a mayor of some Southern California town.

And, you know, there was a, there was a guy getting, getting hung or hanged, I guess it is. And, uh, like a love interest.

And he, I guess Malkmus had some, you know, story behind it, which I thought was interesting.

Which is rare for him really yeah it yeah it it kind of reminds me of a song like pink india you know which he would write much later it's kind of that story song kind of vibe and the songshave similar vibes too in the sense that they're kind of slow and have this guitar part that's kind of lyrical you know and so it it lends itself to telling like some sort of narrative um but alsoSo, like, at that point, Malkmus wasn't really writing narratives that you could, like, parse just by, you know, they might not have defined words or anything.

You know, he kind of has, he had a way of just singing stuff and it would be evocative without really, you know, without you being able to tell what he was really trying to communicate.

[23:03] So, you know, that's Malkmus' like big talent, I think, or one of them.

I do too. like just mashing phrases together that just work rhythmically and from a cadence perspective yeah but they're so obtuse you know yeah yeah um this song i love the dynamicslike i i love that like how it does go from those guitar swells to that again i'm going to use your word again that those you know the the i i called it chill guitar to start and then you go intothe main verse verse with with very slowed down lyrics it takes him almost you know 30 seconds to get the first two lines out you know before you before you get into the thick of thingsquestion for you yes you as soon as you listen to the episode and i did not uh and i have a very poor short-term memory yeah it's very funny i was with some friends yesterday and wewere talking about work uh from 15 years ago and i was naming people's first and last names that you know know we haven't seen in 15 years yeah very good long term but short term boydoes it suck it's uh.

[24:10] It's uh i have a difficult time making new memories so yeah it's uh it's a shitty thing but my question here is um who is jacob right right so uh i was pondering this because of coursea few songs earlier on the album he's talking about jacob javits so i'm like you know know that's like a new york city landmark or something like that or that's right yeah um so i was likewell is that connected i don't think so um i mean pueblo so it's on the i mean, Maybe in some subliminal way, but I don't think it's supposed to be the same guy.

You've also got this Spanos County, I think that he says.

Right. And in the thing you quoted on the other episode, he referred to Spanos as like a person.

Like it was a, you know, like this mayor of this town. Oh, okay.

Yeah. So, yeah, I really don't know. No, but I think, you know, Jacob, I guess, is the protagonist of the song who's getting ceremonially or unceremoniously murdered.

I, you know, I think. But again, in the context, you're not really sure.

Is he like pleading? He's saying, you know, Jacob, you move, you don't move.

Like, so. It sounds like, doesn't it? Like, if you move, you don't move.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[25:36] And Jacob is also mentioned in the Pueblo Domain version of the song, which is the Peel version of the song.

Okay. I was comparing these two.

So, you know, that one was recorded.

[25:55] Uh in february 94 like a few days before crooked rain came out so you know this song we know has been kicking around for a while uh before it was eventually released and it kindof went through some some changes so the peel session version is it's he's saying like jacob you glow you you know you won't go and um but the the lyrics in there are so very abstracteven you know more so than the album version uh really yeah and it's hard to the the song the the early version is really different too it's it's longer the chorus repeats more times the umand you know there's kind of like more more to the meat of the song and less jam oh okay version yeah so i i always i always thought that version the peel version was was like thesuperior one um but i i never really realized how different they are like they really are um so i kind of i'll send you if you want or i don't know if i can do a screen share here but istructured them out it's probably not too interesting for a podcast but you know i i wrote down like you know verse one chorus one you know and mapped out the two different songs tocompare and they're pretty different they're pretty different yeah the um the wowie zowie version basically does verse chorus chorus, jam, verse, chorus, and then outro.

[27:20] And then the Pueblo Domain actually repeats each of the choruses twice. It's twice as long.

And then it does verse, two choruses, verse, two choruses, then a little jam, and then it ends on an instrumental version of the chorus.

And it's a little louder and more boisterous and energetic. energetic so i uh.

[27:48] It's on the Sordid Sentinels. It's on the Crooked Reign. It's on the Crooked Reign? Yeah, so check that one out for sure.

Especially, yeah, and just anyone, if you haven't heard that, it's worth checking out the Peel session at the end.

Tucked way at the end of that Crooked Reign reissue.

They do also Brink of the Clouds, which ended up as a Wauwizawi B-side.

[28:14] But it has a section at the end, like the kind of rocket and uh part of the song that's not on the studio version and yeah it's good you know it's cool i just you know pavement doinglike the unreleased songs on the radio sessions was just such a so cool and it's so cool it really lent to their mythos you know the yeah the mythology of the band like what you know theyhave all these songs like where where's all this stuff coming from why why does Malkmus just essentially just throw these gems away kind of thing?

So, you know, which goes back to Hold on Hope and all that stuff.

You know, he's just, he was so productive around this time, you know, and if you look at those reissues, you know, all the B-sides, all the stray tracks, it's just, it's amazing.

[29:03] Yeah. Oh, like from 89 to 93, they were so prolific, right? right? Yeah.

And there's so many songs on that Crooked Rain reissue that ended up on Wowie Zowie.

So it's almost like right after Slandered and Enchanted was a huge burst of songs that ended up going out into the next two or three albums.

Yeah. That's far out. Yeah.

So what do you think about where this song is rated?

Are you a fan of this song? I am a big fan of the song, but I think it's probably properly rated.

It feels right. It feels like a song where...

[29:48] Like i do really like it but i think it works best in the context of the album or at least it really shines as as a kind of almost penultimate track on wowie zowie you know it it's almostlike the climax of that album um like the emotional climax along with half a canyon you know just like i can see that yeah you know um and i also i i don't know for sure but i kind offigured that like a lot of pavement fans might not know like it by the title or something because it's not you don't really hear the title in the song no i don't think he sings it in the song hedoes on the peel version oh he does in the first line yeah i didn't realize it for a while but i was just listening and he said something about pueblo right right in like the first line but uh butyou know regardless like it seems like a song that's a deep cut but also well worthy to be a fan favorite you know because it it it's very pavementy it's almost like you couldn't really getmore.

[30:50] In a certain like pavement mode of this kind of like it's almost a little countryish but it's just noisy and crunchy it's a little jammy and spacey it's just it's pure pavement yeah i thinkit would fit on watery like i i think you know i think it could like it yeah it's that good you Yeah, oh yeah.

And if you hear the other version of the song on Crooked Rain, not the Peel version, but the, they call it the Beach Boys version.

Right, yes, yeah. And all that is, is an instrumental. It's that pretty guitar intro and verse melody and everything.

And Malkma's doing some just kind of wordless harmonies.

[31:34] But just listening to that version, the way the guitar sounds is less twangy and is more sounds like, you know, In the Mouth of Desert or that kind of slanted style.

Okay. And you can kind of hear how it fits into that kind of zone and how it kind of changed and fits into the wowie zowie zone where the guitar is more like a little slidey or a little liketwangy.

It's really clean, right? Yeah. Like there's no distortion coming through it.

Yeah. It's very clean sounding.

Yeah. I would guess that, you know, the sound of the song kind of influenced the lyrical direction a little bit.

It feels just like a, it feels a little country-ish, a little like desert-y or something.

Yeah. There's a lot of that on Wowie Sowie, isn't there? Yeah.

But yeah, and to me, that sounds like, I would connect that to sounds from the watery era too.

Too, like even like Greenlander is kind of this almost like kind of stark and almost like these desolate songs he was doing around this time, like Rain Ammunition's another other one.Right.

I don't know if you talk. Did you talk about like Rain Ammunition on the year first?

Didn't get to it. You didn't do like the B-side stuff.

Well, the initial thing was to use the bonus feed as B-sides.

I think I got through 35 of them.

Yeah. there's like 40 episodes on the bonus feed. Now there's the bottom 100 or the bottom 50 of this top 100 as well.

[33:02] So I think, well, I can't give it away. I can't tell you that.

Don't give anything away.

Rain ammunition is on that bottom 50 or not.

You know, I don't know. I'm just, I love all those stray songs around this era.

So yeah, you know, there's a very defined vibe.

Also kind of similar to like the early Silver Juice stuff that Malkmus was on I think you could connect stylistically that kind of like.

[33:33] Deserty uh watery domestic slanted vibe and see how it kind of morphed into like the more country, tinged uh wowie zowie thing yeah and that's around the same time that davidwas doing starting to get a bit more twangy as well yeah yeah and i know i talked to bob recently and he you know he talked about how david pushed steve a little bit um well not a littlebit probably a lot lot right like lyrically like there was a lot of competition between those guys you have to think they pushed each other yeah yeah to like i mean how cool is it that thesetwo like amazingly talented guys got to meet and work together in their lives you know it's fucking insane this is really converged yeah and i i get the impression that you know mulchmiss everything kind of came easy to him and i think berman was someone who had to really push himself a little little more, like, you know, maybe like a little more dedication to craft orwhatever.

I think he would look at Malkmus as like, you know, what, you know, like, how does he do it kind of guy, you know, just had to kind of like, you know, they had to like one up each othera little bit, you know, like a friendly, competitive kind of thing, you know?

Well, I think Bob says, you know, he feels fortunate. I think I've heard him say that he feels fortunate to have worked with one of the best songwriters to ever live and one of the bestlyricists.

Yeah, totally. It's so, so cool.

[34:58] Yeah, Bob's had a great, lucky, you know, it's awesome for him to be able to work with those guys, I'm sure.

Yeah. I can't even imagine. Nope, me neither. Yeah.

So, that's what I've got for you this week. Is there anything else that you want to tie up?

Is there anything that people can plug or anything that you can plug for people to look up?

Sure, yeah, actually. That you're doing? doing uh i uh i'm in a band called rectangle creep and rectangle creep yeah we're pretty um pretty guided by voices influenced and there'spavement and we have 10 000 songs we have we do we have a lot of albums and stuff but if anyone you do have albums oh yeah like you know check check the band camp check theband camp and i do some i have a lot of different projects so So maybe I'll just mention that one, but it's a whole universe of bands and stuff like that. But yeah, it's fun. That's great.

[36:00] You know, music is awesome. So go to Bandcamp and search for Rectangle Creep.

Yeah, Rectangle Creep. And yeah.

[36:08] Cool. Well, it's been great talking to you, man. Yeah, definitely.

Thanks for letting me be a part of this project. It's really cool what you do.

Yeah, well, thank you very much. Of course. We'll be back next... Oh, sorry to interrupt.

I was just going to say how much I really love your interviews with Spiral.

And it's really cool how generous he's been with talking to you.

And all the other guys too but I mean I love how accessible he is and it's so cool learning about that stuff so I'm looking forward to you know whatever new pavement stuff comes out ifyou know whatever news and projects you know I appreciate that you help bring this stuff to light I'll fly the flag forever man do it yeah well, great talking to you again Dan yep thanks alot wash your god damn Sam Hance.

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jD is back and this week he is joined by Cam from Toronto to discuss his Pavement origin story, talk about indie music and of course to break down song number 40 in the countdown.

Transcript:

Track 2:

[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. This is the second song from Terra Twilight on the countdown.

You Are a Light was number 45.

And here we are at number 41 with Major Leagues. Pete, what do you think?

So I love this song. I was talking earlier about the early days of me discovering Pavement and those burned MP3 CDs.

And I always loved this song. I mean, this song was the soundtrack to breakups and heartaches and lonely times.

Track 3:

[0:40] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Track 4:

[0:49] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots.

I then tabulated the results using an abacus and, strangely, a wizard's hat.

All that's left for us is to reveal this week's track.

How will your favorite song fare in the ranking? You'll need to tune in, or whatever the podcast equivalent of tuning in is, every week to find out. So there's that.

This week, we're joined by Pavement superfan, Cam in Toronto. Cam, how are you doing?

I'm good JD how are you thank you so much for having me on I'm you know I'm the better part of good we've had some technical snafus here and we're working through it so yeah I'll beI'll be fine but enough about me let's get into you and find out your pavement origin story.

[1:46] So my pavement origin story, and I was just saying off mic that I've been on many podcasts over the years, but I've never had a chance to talk about pavement in long form.

So this is quite the treat. um so yeah my origin story pavement goes back to high school um so with me i mean you can really extrapolate to my kind of like what i'll just call my coolmusic um origin story that i i think for me really started in i'd say like the fall of 1994 and i always credit um major league baseball going on strike in 1994 you know as my sliding doorsmoment where maybe I would have never even cared about pavement if that didn't happen I was because I guess in that fall I think I just entered grade 11 and I was mainly just like a hugesports nerd so all I wanted to do was watch baseball and fancy baseball and NBA statistics and trading cards and like real advanced like like, sports nerdom.

And then Major League Baseball went on strike, and there's no World Series that year. And I was, like, heartbroken.

I needed something to fill my time.

[3:02] And I don't remember exactly why. It's like, I'm going to get really into music.

But I started listening to CFNY here in Toronto, where I grew up north of the city, and slowly started to get into, like, a lot of those, like, gateway bands.

Bands um so there's also the the post grunge crap that was on the radio i thought i should talk crap it's all like all that stuff so like you know stone temple pilots or you know a lot of thecan con bands appear that i still love but you know i would also hear some songs by like dinosaur junior or i'd be listening on the oliver press show and they play the pixies or i hear thebreeders so you know little by little then you get into those bands and then you discover of our Sonic Youth and it quickly led me to Pavement who never had any songs on the radio but Iquickly understood that this is a band you were supposed to like if you were cool um.

[4:01] And it's like Sonic Youth were definitely my first sort of favorite cool band in this post Major League Baseball strike phase.

And I still really like them, but I still to this day find them a little atonal.

Because at heart, I still love like Top 40 and like Pop Hooks and stuff.

So Papin were sort of the best version of sort of, you know, poppy, hooky songs, but still weird and noisy and kind of like snarky and whatnot.

So they sort of ticked a lot of boxes for me. And clearly those guys like classic rock, too.

But they also knew about, you know, the Swell Maps and the Tall Dwarves and the Clean and the Fall and all those bands that, again, you were supposed to like.

And I feel like to some degree I still pretend like I like a lot of bands.

Some of them are pretty bad.

But yeah, Pavement, I mean, is long time my favorite band.

And um i've been lucky because i actually got to i've seen them i guess in total four times um i did see them when they played lollapalooza in molson park and barry the sort of the.

[5:14] They say in the i'm sure you have the slow century dvd but i remember there's like a, clip of like scott kanberg or button astanovich maybe where he said that was the tour that killedthe touring version of Lollapalooza because it was so badly attended where Sonic Youth headlined and Papen played fourth.

So that was my first time seeing them. I don't think I had any of the albums.

That point because i guess that was a summer like wow he's that we came but i knew sort of, some of the songs and then i feel like by that fall 1995 i remember having slightly theiralbums were very expensive too they were like 20 each unlike sonic youth who's doing like their dgc reissues where you could get like daydream nation for 10 bucks but um crookedCrooked Rain would be $20.

So yeah, I definitely had Crooked Rain first. I remember getting it at Fairview Mall in Toronto on Boxing Day for like 20% off. Yeah, so it was good value.

And then I definitely had all the albums by the time I went to university, which was in 1996.

[6:23] So yeah, they were like Pavement, Sonic Youth, Master Junior, Pixies, And then some of the more OG alternative bands, you know, The Clash and The Cure.

That was sort of the bedrock of sort of my sort of fandom.

But yeah, my origin sort of pavement goes way back. So yeah, I saw them twice before they broke up.

Lollapalooza, then they played. Oh, no, I've seen them five times, actually.

Three times before they broke up and then the two reunions.

And yeah, they've always been with me. I've never really stopped listening to them.

And almost every other band I have phases where I'll go sometimes, I'll need a break of a few months or a few years.

But no, they've been consistent in my life for, God, I don't even know, around 30 years now.

That's crazy. That is crazy. Yeah.

[7:16] Yeah, they just celebrated the 35th anniversary of Slay Tracks, recording Slay Tracks on January 17th. So that was 35 years ago.

And that's when they kicked it off in earnest. I feel like, uh, yeah, they didn't really break till 94.

Yeah. Is that the one you got the Instagram shout out to the podcast from there? Yeah. Yeah.

That's huge. No, you were the one who pointed that out to me.

I was, I couldn't, I couldn't figure out why my Instagram was blowing up.

And, uh, you told me that and I looked at it and then it was like, oh yeah.

Yeah. Matador reposted it as well. Yeah. retweeted it as well.

I'm trying to think, because I had the Westing by Sexton and Musket that sort of collected all those really early gnarly stuff, which is great.

I don't know if those ever came out individually on CDs, or if they did, like they were real collector's items, and like the Drag City stuff, from what I recall. Because I never had the actualCDs.

Yeah, they were just on vinyl. I've got them hanging on my wall because I didn't have a turntable. I went out and collected them and uh, There they are. Very good. Demolition plot.Perfect Sound Forever. Yeah.

[8:36] Chaotic artwork that goes with all the tape and albums. Very haphazard.

Yeah, like haphazard. And like you said, gnarly sounds.

I prefer the more hooky, melodic stuff as well.

So tell me about the other couple times you saw them live before we carried on.

Yeah, so first time would have been Ninety Night Bob, Lollapalooza, playing alongside side sonic youth and hole and cypress hill they they played in the afternoon i remember, rememberthis show because uh shenaid o'connor uh rep or shout out to ridley funeral home as her friend tron might could say um was supposed to play but she was like pregnant so elastica, subbedfor her um yeah so that they played in the the afternoon i remember seeing a mosh pit like I didn't go down to the front of Molson Park but it's just sort of weird in hindsight because theywere touring Wowie Zowie, not really the most moshable tunes on that one.

[9:36] I almost think it was like it's half country music but they were they've been playing right between Elastica who are probably never more popular in North America.

[9:47] So right after Elastica and right before Cypress Hill who are real crowd pleasers with the oversized, Buddha on stage and like smoke billowing so I think you know Paper Wardefinitely set up to fail and again this was I think referenced in the Slow Century DVD so that was the first time, second time I saw them at the Phoenix Concert Theatre, here in TorontoYou saw them at the Phoenix?

Yeah so that was the Bright in the Corners tour that was a fun show.

I bet Yeah so I obviously they played most of bread in the corners and whatever else um and i remember they did an interview with the new music with sookie and lee on that tour i thinkit was malchus and steve west i want to say um and malchus is they were for some reason they were in a used car dealership, um for some reason i don't know if there was one close to thevenue and malchus had like very short hair at the time i remember because i had this on vhs because i watched them many times um but that that was a good show i remember being in aparking lot before and drinking uh bottles of samuel adams beer not having a bottle opener so we're sort of we weren't cool enough to do that sort of like pop top thing where you take liketwo bottles so we're trying to use the curb and like one of the bottles the neck of the bottle broke we were so poor we still drank it which is probably not a good idea.

[11:14] Um that was one of my memories do not drink from a broken bottle yeah don't do that it's a good way to sort of shred your uh esophagus or whatever uh but anyway live to tell uhbut yeah that was a good show and then the third time i saw them at uh the government no longer those crack beside the cool house in toronto um that was that was the funeral home yeahexactly that was the terror twilight tour um that one was less remarkable i mean i think they're already the rumors they were breaking up and they seemed like they were kind of mailing itin um at that point and seemed fairly disinterested um and definitely terror twilight still a good album but of the five full lengths easily my least favorite i would say um so yeah that wasthe fourth the third time fourth time was the reunion tour when it hit toronto they played it on the island uh which is very cool toronto island for your non-toronto listeners it's like uh thinkof it like central park but in a great lake i guess um so they played there like a package show with the broken social scene who else band of horses played beach house and somebody else iwant to say destroyer wow Wow, what a lineup. Yeah, so that was cool.

[12:40] I missed that. I was living in LA at the time. I missed that tour.

Did you see their first reunion tour? Did you see them?

Yeah, I saw them in Central Park. Central Park, okay. Well, the first time I saw them was in 2010 when they reunited.

I didn't become a fan until Terror of Twilight. So I was really late to the party.

Really late to the party. and then um saw them in central park and then on the most recent reunion tour i went to the uk and followed them and like went to like eight shows in the uk anduh went to portugal and saw them in porto and um saw them both shows in toronto and then saw them in la at the fonda so i don't know where did they play i've been there before it's likewhat type of venue were they at it was a big festival it was the primavera festival so it was like i don't know it well enough to tell you where it was but it was like yeah it was a big festivalground um gotcha i'm sure i'm sure they do other events there because it was a really cool space and it was a it was a good back went on back was on right before they went on and he waselectric and uh yeah they were work right yeah very very cool yeah did you drink a port while you're in porto.

[14:02] I did not. I'm not a port guy. Not a port guy, yeah.

But I did have the sardines, the big plate of sardines.

Absolutely, yeah. Portugal's fun. Only been there once, but I had a great time.

So yeah, I saw them on the most recent reunion tours, the fifth of five times at Massey Hall in Toronto the first night.

That's very cool you got to follow them around, because I know they were very conscious about mixing up the set lists.

Yeah yeah which is which is very cool um so that and then malchus solo i probably i don't know maybe like four times mainly at lee's palace um in toronto and then i did see scottcannenberg, live when he toured solo he played the horseshoe he's played solo a few times in toronto because i know he played the dakota tavern that's very very small and i believe heplayed here when he he was doing the preston school of industry um oh wow i would love yeah so but so yeah i saw canterbury i feel like it was right before covid he played with someguys and did a combination of his solo stuff and some pavement tunes i know he played like kennel district and a few other a few other jams and then i also feel like one of the times i sawsonic youth was when mark Mark Eibold was in the band.

I seem to remember seeing him during that iteration. Yeah. Like.

[15:31] Like that was around like the album rather ripped or something okay um from what i recall so i feel like i saw that um so yeah i've had the good fortune to see like pavement orpavement guys yeah pavement and jace um probably into the double digits i'm very feel very fortunate and then you know pavement proper five different times which is yeah i think therewas only one toronto show i didn't see they played that the place that's no longer around called the palladium um where was the palladium was like near main and danforth um i i feel likeit's a shelter now but it was a big for a few years and i remember i feel like on my blog i did like a infographic of all the bands who played the playdium is quite the array everyone frompavement to my bloody valentine played there there was like a hip-hop double bill like tripop quest and de la slow and they did sort of the native tongues package tour um i feel like thelemonheads might have played there.

[16:36] Again it was it was kind of right before i got into music and those shows probably would have been 19 plus so it wouldn't have been of eight but yeah i'm pretty sure that was theonly other time paven played um toronto and that would have been like the crooked rain tour um that's great Yeah.

So, yeah, in terms of like payment live and then try to get any other like anecdotes with them beyond just like buying all their stuff.

[17:04] They've got a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Coming out with a seven inch box set this year.

Yeah i'm i'm curious how long they'll keep this going this reunion because i believe because they do have like other shows coming do we say when we're recording this i feel like this issort of evergreen content so we probably shouldn't put it in time and place but you know we're in the early early days of 2024 and i know they have shows coming up i think in southamerica, um and elsewhere so i will be curious to see how long they keep this uh going uh this this this reunion tour because it i never got the vibe malchus was that into things likereunions but um i don't know this one it's gone longer than i anticipated and they're certainly hitting a lot of countries me too let me ask you this did you notice a big difference betweenthe first reunion and the second reunion like in terms of malchus's um i don't know his sort of behavior his attitude i guess i i think he seemed a bit more at peace with it the second time inin good spirits maybe i just caught him on a good night um because i i think he was always very.

[18:23] Indifferent wouldn't be the word but i feel like and from what i understood the other guys in the band were more into the idea of a reunion than he was because obviously as a soulartist he's been been quite prolific um oh my god i think i think there's more malchus and well there's definitely more malchus or malchus plus jicks albums than pavement um by a longshot now big time and he's been very consistent putting out but yeah he seemed in good good spirits and um, I don't know. It's interesting because when I saw them in Massey Hall and justseeing the crowd that was there and they did two nights of Massey Hall in Toronto that's you know, I'm trying to get that.

I feel like it holds 3,000 people. So that's like 6,000 people.

It almost felt more like they bridged over into classic rock somehow.

[19:15] Which I don't know if it's like a discovery thing because of Spotify where where it'd be interesting, I always like comparing, you know, look at Pavement on Spotify and then go tothat tab where it said, people who like this band also like these bands, and how that morphs over the years.

And then you have kind of curiosity, and there's a few bands of the Pavement ilk that have a situation like this, where Harness Your Hopes becomes this weird viral era sensation, whichit's a fine B-side, but I never gave it too much thought.

And i'm not sure i really need to hear it live but again here we are and i think that's their number one stream song on spotify i know duster jr had a track like that that for some reasonbecame a big viral hit in japan from the uh without a sound album so again strange times we're living in the street age absolutely um yeah i feel like pippen's done pretty well it's sort ofcrossing over into sort of the youth as much as any band of that era considering those Those guys, I think, are all close to 60, if not older at this point.

I've got a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old, and they both know Harness Your Hopes.

Like, beyond osmosis, like, from me, they know that song from TikTok.

And it's so bonkers to me. Yeah, it's so interesting.

[20:39] Just while we were working through our technical difficulties, I noticed Mary Weiss, the lead singer of the Shangri-Las, Laws just passed away.

Oh, shut up. Yeah. Which is, which is a shame, but it's like, there's a whole generation of kids will not know and probably won't care that this.

[20:57] Person saying probably their favorite tiktok hook that oh no no no that you've heard on a million rap songs a million tiktok videos sung by mary weiss lisa the shanker laws theywill not know they will not care it's a time we live in i feel like people's relationship with music is just so it's just different i don't think it's good or bad or i don't know i you know as muchas everyone i missed all dick in the good old days but it's also like things change all the time yeah um so harness your hopes tiktok hit sure why not why not it's like totally believable idon't know it's a it's a pavement anomaly so speaking of relationships with music uh what's your go-to record i i understand from your conversation that terror twilight is like number fifthuh number five with a bullet uh what's your what's your number one what's your what's your one you'll pick up on a on a day like like today and you might just want to listen to somemusic so you throw it on yeah i mean probably depending on what mood you catch me.

[22:03] I would say wowie zowie more often than not but the actual answer honestly is probably perfect rain i i feel like it's just because again i feel like i'm sort of a top 40 person at heartas much as i pretend not to be although i sort of love it all and i feel like that's sort of their closest as to doing a CCR record, famously.

Yes. And that's not an original thought. I feel like that was sort of a reference point that a lot of rock critics mentioned.

[22:30] It's work. Shout out Ridley Funeral Home. Yeah, exactly.

[22:36] So yeah, in terms of something to listen through, 1 through 12, Crooked Rain for sure.

But Wowie Dowie is just such a peculiar record.

Record and probably had i'd say either like grounded or father to a sister of thought or amongst my like favorite songs they're just so unique um the father to a sister of thought is amazingyeah i i feel like the only problem with that album it's a little long and there's a few tracks mainly like flux equals rad that i would just like skip over uh they're like, fairly annoying umsomewhere out there is a is a spiral stairs uh curated version of wowie zowie like he had a track listing that's the only record he didn't get to do the track listing but he had it as a 10 song a10 song album classic rock album is is what he called it interesting yeah because it's what yeah i feel like it's 16 tracks like the original 16.

[23:36] Or 18 yeah yeah yeah i think you're right it is 18 um you know it's got country music it's got like stuff that's sort of resembling krat rock it's got sort of just like throwaway dirgeslike the aforementioned flex equals rad um you know starts with a song we dance that's just like a really slow tempo song and a very atypical album opener um you know rattled by therush was the the first single, which I mainly recall.

I feel like Pave and fans don't like that song, generally, and famously was featured on Beavis and Butthead, where they said the band was just lazy.

Try harder. And Weirdly had, like, two videos, too, from what I recall.

Oh. Like, there was sort of the main video, and then one where it was just, like, a bathtub filling with water, with the other video, like, playing on a tile.

That's right. Yeah, that's the one I'm familiar with. that's the one i'm familiar with yeah i'm not really sure what that's all about but yeah that that album was all over the place but it's justlike a wild album that the cover art is is great, um you know you mentioned like a wizard hat off the top it had like the wizard on the back saying paving his rad yes um yeah some iremember like the liner notes were like all scribbly and i.

[24:58] Probably is like Papin working as blue as they ever did in some of the liner notes or some of the, which I don't want to repeat because I don't know who had clipped the sound, butsome like rudeness in there.

But yeah, what an album. And again, I, I, I definitely remember getting that album in high school before I really had sort of the broader context of this whole indie rock thing and justbeing like, what is this?

It's very different from anything that was going on at the time for sure.

Yeah, totally. Totally. And around the same time too, like I also got, um, at least one of the silver Jews albums.

[25:33] Ah, like really early because again, I knew that, uh, Nisanovic and Malchus were on at, uh, not American water, the twilight, twilight Walker, I think was the name of the album.Starlight Walker.

[25:46] Starlight Walker. Right. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Which was like great.

[25:51] And like, you know, was, was not, not a huge stretch if you're into pavement and certainly if you're into wowie zowie gang into that album was fairly easy and but that's sort of aregret too i was supposed to go see the purple mountains or like david berman and was obviously canceled when he decided to uh check out a couple years ago and i'd say that's probablyalso my number one concert regret the one and only time the silver juice played in toronto um i think it was like 2009 um i forgot.

[26:24] Out which album the lookout c lookout look i'm gonna look at c yeah yeah i feel like maybe it's maybe that album uh i should have gone i don't know i feel like i was just like in agap in my silver jews listening and now that's the mr burman's with us there's clips of it on youtube so yeah i've enjoyed those yeah yeah well tragic what what a talent oh man yeahabsolutely um um love love him and uh if you're listening to this and and you enjoy this maybe you'll enjoy the berman project which is another podcast i do so uh if you're out therelistening i didn't even know check out the berman project yeah we're gonna plug yes yeah well to appeal to your to appeal to your top 40 sensibility we have you kicking off the top 40 thisis track number 40 coming up should we uh go to it yeah absolutely all right we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back after this with track number 40 hey.

Track 5:

[27:25] This is bob nastanovich from pavement thanks for listening and now on with a countdown 40.

Track 2:

[30:41] So track number 40, Starlings of the Slipstream, is the 11th track on BTC and the fourth song on the countdown from Bright in the Corner so far behind Blue Hawaiian at 50,number 44, Embassy Row, and of course at 43, which we just heard a couple weeks ago, was Old to Begin.

So Cam from Toronto, what do you think of Starlings of the Slipstream? this.

Track 4:

[31:10] Is a great little song i love i love this song just as a standalone item i love this song going right into the song finn to wrap up that album yeah um but those might actually be my twofavorite songs on on right in the corners like what a what a great one to punch to close things that finn is probably actually my favorite song on that album but yeah i i think starlings andin the slipstream is is a great song it's a great pavement song but i do also feel like it would not be out of place on that first season of miss solo album i think it's a good part i think it's agood harbinger of things to come because it's it's really well produced it's really well played.

[31:57] Um and it kind of has that same like languid breezy almost like california it's not really a california song but i don't know i could just sort of hear it on that first mouth that soloalbum alongside um like the latter half of that album with like trojan curfew and deto and those sort of more you know mid-tempo songs um it's a great little song it's really short thoughlike how long is it it's like two minutes or so yeah two two i don't have it in front of me but like i want to say 220 or something like that it's it's uh it's a short it's a short um song with withsparse verses. Um, yeah, you know it's um i love the tone of sm's voice in this song like he he's he's using a really nice version of his voice like it really is a lovely a lovely song yeah imean i i think a lot of his best songs and again this is not an original thought but just sounds so effortless yes just even some of the lyrics in this song like you know i'm sure i'm sure hewrote them on the back of a napkin and they're even like you know the the 10th best verse in this is probably more creative than anything i've ever done in my entire life um like i think ofthat.

[33:20] Darlings on the split screen and yes like just that little word play in there and i i know you mentioned this when you talked about the song before but you know in terms of like i sortof, jokingly alluded to the liner notes of Wowie Zowie Not things that have been aged well, Darlings on the split screen I think when you talked about this song before on the podcast yousort of referenced Revenge of the Nerds That's what it reminds me of Porkies, I feel like there's like a spy cam in a sorority, but just what are just like lyricists but.

[33:58] That whole album I find interesting because i don't find it like a very high energy album but no it does feel like a very late 90s album like bridging this you know functionally thegrunge era was dead but we weren't into kind of the 2000s with like the strokes and interpol and those bands so i find albums of this of this era from like indie rock or a lot of british stuffyou know i think of like spiritualize or the verve urban hymns are really interesting because it was a bit of a no man's or no person's land i feel like if you're into indie rock and alternativein that time because we're also like right on the precipice of like the boy band britney spears era and also like the new the new metal era yeah so an album like right in the corners comeson 1997 um you know i feel like a a lot of alternative band, the air works are having an identity crisis.

Um, that album, I think of it in the same terms when I think of that blur self-titled album, um, where Damon Albarn was in rain pox. And especially we're saying how influenced they wereby pavement.

Right. That's the one with song two on it. Right. That's right.

Yeah. And like beetle bum and stuff.

Right. Right. Um, yeah, it's a really interesting time in music, but I don't know, like, I feel like right in the corners I didn't think about for years, but.

[35:25] It's my favorite. Yeah, the longer I sit with this band, it's like, that's really a kick-ass album.

And even the singles were great.

It's definitely a more refined pavement and I think it's a superior album to Terror Twilight, but just smoothed out every rough edge that came with Wowie Zowie.

[35:46] It's almost weird in hindsight that a song like Shady Lane wasn't a big radio hit.

I mean, it's not a difficult song to get into.

[35:55] Agree at all but there's you know there's there's tons of great songs and some also some good b-sides of that including i think this is where uh harness was harness your hopes was ithink that was a carrot rope b-side or it is oh shit or was it like a shady lane b-side i forget it was definitely one of these albums i could look it up but you know i am uncool andunderqualified qualified and i often just wing it um but that one i do not know i do not know the answer if you're listening to this and you're screaming at your uh device right now send mean email jd at medium alchemist.com and let me know what uh where harness your hopes comes from i'm yeah but it is definitely it's a an ep yeah and i want to say it's i want to say it'smajor leaks but i might be wrong yes oh you i think you might be right i feel like it actually it is a terror or twilight era b-side um but yeah sir starlings is 15 you know it's it's a great song idon't know i i feel i definitely feel like it's an overlooked song in their catalog for sure as far as malcolm as lyrics go as well like i think that first verse is is narratively cohesive right likeso So I've done some further research than I did for the prior episode, and I learned what a slipstream actually is.

[37:21] And it is like, uh, I've got it written down here. Um.

[37:26] A slipstream is the area behind a jet or any moving object.

So it's like how race cars can do drifting and things like that.

So the slipstream will often catch birds and suck them toward the plane in the engines.

And so the starlings of the slipstream, I heard what you said.

The leaders are dead. They're robbing the skies and I can hear their followers cry.

Fry so to me that's like fairly straightforward as far as malchemist goes because he's usually word salad right like it's it's beautiful the way he does it but it's like you said it's effortless.

[38:07] And uh and i was gonna say what do we know about actual starlings are they like a migratory bird i'm just are they getting like sucked up in the slipstream en masse um becausethey're they're they're pretty big for like a i don't know if they qualify as like a songbird but they're bigger than like a sparrow for sure that's right yeah they're kind of like a grackle sizewow i did not realize i had a bird expert yeah no i was pretty well again before baseball and before indie rockers they were like really into animals as a kid and it's i have a lot of latentknowledge of like birds and amphibians and man that's great yeah also i don't know if you remember i don't know know if you're from canada originally there was a uh i shouldn't sayfailed there was just like a can con band called starling i don't remember them from the late 90s early 2000s i want to say they were from ottawa um and i feel like they got sort of a majorlabor push for like one album i remember seeing them in the cutout bins in and around toronto uh not not long after bright in the corners came out starling was was getting a bit of a pushwow yeah very cool fun fact yeah.

[39:24] Fun fact you can't help but drop the lexicon in i know i know if you're not if you're listening to this and you wonder where a lot of this language is coming from shout out ridleyfuneral home and uh fun fact there's a particular episode you should listen to of toronto mic'd and it is uh an episode all about lexicon and cam is on it and the vp of sales is on it uh tylerand of course mike is on it and it's uh it's a great addendum to the podcast as i mentioned i've been on the toronto mike podcast many many times over the years and pavement does comeup every every once in a while, but Mike's knowledge of pavement has just, he heard cut your hair on the radio a few times.

[40:13] And even that, I don't know, like I feel like in Canada that did not really, get spins the only time i recall hearing it on the radio was uh kind of club 102 nights it would get played inthe opening hour when you might hear some more uh eclectic stuff that's skirax yeah like i remember hearing cut your hair and and um like the band adorable like how almost like thethird tier british stuff the new fast automatic daffodils or whatever that band the new fads right um adorable homeboy maybe a little ned's atomic dustbin or the boo radley's uh every oncein a while you hear a paving for a pixies track but not not really dance music no cut cut your hair i don't think and certainly starlings of the slip screen definitely not no um dance music atall so was this was this album always your favorites um no i went there twilight was your entry point yeah that was my entry point and then the steve solo record and then i went andcompleted the catalog first one i got was.

[41:20] Crooked rain and fell in love with crooked rain and then i just bought everything and uh just through listening that was part of the medium alchemist idea the concept behind it wasme listening to every track so that i could you know get a better sense of why they were so awesome and like why was it that i liked them i i couldn't ever really put my finger on it so ithought well i'll just go through every track and and see very cool and that's what i did yeah yeah i don't know like i i got i don't know if you've talked about his first solo album much but ii fucking love that album i i think it is really underrated yeah yes um to me it feels like a person reborn where you know there's the old adage if you're a band you know you have yourwhole life to write your first album and you have six months to write your second album or whatever it is.

I just felt like all those songs Malikmas had been sitting on, I could be wrong. You're the actor, so maybe you know this for a fact.

But I feel like those songs you're probably sitting on for quite a while.

But they just, for whatever reason, they didn't feel like pavement songs.

[42:34] Because they just seem so fully formed and both familiar yet a new thing when it came out.

Totally. Even that album cover is like, what is he doing?

He's on the beach. He looks all breezy. His hair is different. print uh he almost looked like a sort of a mad night idol he's never been more sort of dashing than he is on that album cover umbut it's great i'm trying to remember when did that come out as a 2003 2001 is it 2000 wow okay wild is it 2001 or yeah i'm pretty sure it's yeah i think you're right yeah it wasn't fouryears between that and terror twilight certainly so yeah i think you're right and on the terror twilight box set there's a couple uh sm demos that like he was demoing for pavement but likeyou said must have just been like this doesn't feel right and sat on them and then they show up you know two years later three years later on the record yeah well it was interesting to seewhen he started bridging out even you know in the last few years of pavement during their first iteration um i remember having the soundtrack to the movie suburbia the richard linklettermovie where the first song was elastica featuring.

[43:54] Stephen malchmas doing a cover of the x song the unheard music have you ever heard this song no i'm not yeah that that's worth digging up it's not i i definitely know it's not onspotify um that's one of the great i wouldn't say it's like a lost soundtrack i think people know about that soundtrack but that's a really cool cover in my opinion and i don't know if you youget with elastica magic the second time we're talking about elastica weirdly maybe they met they probably met on the lull blizzard well he was dating the singer of elastica for a while oror something along those lines there was some intrigue was dating uh justine freishman from it did Did Malthus date her, too?

Is that true? I think there was some sort of dalliance at some point, yeah. Okay.

I don't know. We might need to get Robert Lawson in. I'm not sure about that.

But regardless, maybe it's on YouTube, but that's definitely worth digging up in terms of an early Malthus external foray outside of Pavement that I think is a very cool song that we don'thear anymore.

More that that album or that soundtrack also has the first version i think it was before.

[45:09] A thousand leaves came out the song sunday by sonic youth that was the first time it appeared was on that um and beck's on there and super chunk and i believe the bipolar surf orsome previous i think it's all like previously released stuff mainly that was a combination like besides and other stuff um but definitely worth digging up because i don't think that albumfor sure act is on uh spotify but that.

[45:31] That covers great and i feel like it's weirdly been lost history because i don't consider it for steven moccas nor elastica particularly obscure obscure in this day and age but that thatsong's just uh falling through the cracks oh man well cam it has been absolutely wonderful picking your brain here about pavement and music in general uh you've got a real greatknowledge of things and you're right in my wheelhouse age wise as well i'm going to be 50 this year but um but very similar vibes so i i get you know a lot lot of what you're putting downis there anywhere that uh you live in the online realm that you want to share with people or is there any projects you're working on that you want to share or anything like that yeah i meanpeople can follow my or take a look at my music blog.

[46:22] Completely completely ignored.com um i used to call it sort of think nate silver but for music is how i describe it but now i feel like nate silver is like half canceled so i'm gonnaneed a new analogy for this but think of it like fun musical info infographics cross maybe like money ball crossed with indie rock oh that's very cool yeah it's all about sort of usingnumbers and and graphics and visuals to tell little fun facts and anecdotes about music a lot of stuff like things like ticket prices and like stream counts on spotify and fake posters likethere's a lot of like fake Coachella posters on there of like, you know.

[47:10] CanConChella was probably my biggest viral hit from that blog. That was you?

Yeah, that was me. Oh, that's fabulous.

[47:20] Yeah, yeah. So that was a big hit with Alan Cross and sort of the Indie88 crowd.

But again, it was a bit of a one-hit wonder, much like Cut Your Hair With Pavement.

There's been a few viral hits from that blog, but yeah completelyignored.com if you want to check it out there's all sorts of stuff on there that uh probably if you're listening to this so youwouldn't be totally offended by what's on there there's some fun stuff cool well i'm going to check it out right after this cool thanks again for coming in and thanks for putting up with mytechnical difficulties that was great um that's what i've got for you this week everybody next week we'll be here with track number 39 and we'll we'll do this all again.

Thanks Cam. Awesome, thanks for having me. Wash your goddamn hands.

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jD is talking to Pavement super-fan Pete from Malaga this week on the pod. You'll learn all about his Pavement origin story and hear their breakdown of song number 41 on the countdown

Transcript:

Track 1:

[0:00] Previously on the pavement top 50.

Track 2:

[0:02] Okay track number 42 easily fooled comes from the rattled by da rush ep and um it's the third track on that ep and it later appeared on the sorted sentinel edition of wowie zowiereissue along with its ep bandmate false scorpion and it was track number 22 on that uh second disc of the sorted sentinels uh collection three issue so alan yeah what do you think ofeasily fooled love it love it love it love it it's on like i said to you off off air it's probably one of my favorite tracks alongside here yeah it just it's just such an amazing track Love themeandering nature of it.

Just really acerbic lyrics.

And yeah, it's an awesome, awesome track to jam along to.

Track 3:

[1:01] Hey, this is Westy from the rock and roll band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.

Hey.

Track 6:

[1:09] It's JD here, back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band Pavement.

Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots.

I tabulated the results using an advanced abacus and some spilled toothpicks on the floor.

And all that's left for us to reveal is this week's track.

How will your favorite song fare in the rating? You'll need to tune in or whatever the podcast equivalent of tuning in is every week to find out. So there's that.

Track 5:

[1:43] This week.

Track 6:

[1:44] We're joined by Pavement superfan, Pete. Pete how are you doing motherfucker getting over the fact that you said abacus and toothpicks you're like you're you're like you're like a Idon't know you're a cross between like an old Chinese medicine man and fucking rain man didn't he didn't he count toothpicks he did.

[2:13] I'm good man i'm good i'm thanks for thanks for having me no it's my pleasure to have you on the show the legendary pete marchica of marchica easy easy easy so talk to me a littlebit about your pavement origin story pavement origin story um so i think it's fair it's it's it's important to point out that early on so I came to pavement right as they broke up like I was likediscovered this amazing band and the record that had just come out, was Steve Malcolm's self-titled debut and so this is the in after days and a A buddy of mine, Moe, who you know I'vespoke of a number of times, who incidentally knows Spiral well, he was burning discs like nobody's business.

He was a master pirate and was burning a bunch of pavement stuff.

Track 5:

[3:22] I'm like.

Track 6:

[3:23] This band is fucking awesome. And I really couldn't at the time differentiate between the Malcolm of Souls stuff and pavement itself.

And.

Track 5:

[3:34] I mean.

Track 6:

[3:35] I think probably the first Pavement song maybe I ever heard was...

[3:41] Elevate me later or stereo one of those two both good songs to start with yeah and then got to the point to where i had a couple of these like compilation burns of napster tunes frompavement and uh and they just i just listened to the shit out of them i would sometimes i would leave them in my car and i noticed my mom started liking like pavement stuff because therewere like some PSO I sprinkled in there too oh yeah yeah yeah there was one song actually that was a spiral tune I want to say it was date with Ikea right and when you downloaded itfrom Napster there was a there was like a a opener tag like sometimes you get the file and the file would just be be whatever that person that was on the file sharing gave you andsometimes it wouldn't be the song but you know this happened to be the song but it would start with this really cool jingle, and this beautiful woman with a beautiful voice and she wouldjust say encoded by easy mp3.

[4:55] It was uh i guess it was a mp3 encoding software that was early on and uh so i i never like i I think the first time I ever heard date with Ikea without encoded by MP easy MP3 in thebeginning was like.

[5:13] I don't know when I bought my first payment record.

Cause I, I ended up buying them all obviously in the years to come.

And it was probably 2006, 2005.

So I was listening to payment for like a good four to five years.

Thinking that date with Ikea started with coded by easy.

[5:38] Yeah it was like it was some random shit but oh the nowadays that brings me back man, It was a wild west, man. And you know what's crazy? And I may have told this on the...

It's only relevant because of the town that I grew up in.

I grew up in Downey and this high school I went to was a high school of James Hetfield from Metallica.

And so they were, if you remember, at the forefront at the time of just being like, Like, fuck Napster, they're destroying the music industry, and Sal Park made the episode, this, that, andthe other.

So I remember having, like, and my dad used to be a musician before he, like, quit playing music and started a trucking company, this and that.

Track 5:

[6:27] Dude.

Track 6:

[6:28] We used to have, like, discussions at the table, like, the dinner table.

These would be, like, long, drawn-out discussions where I'd have to make my case as to why what I was doing was okay.

Really? Yeah, my dad was just like, that is just sheer theft.

You are stealing from people.

And man, I mean, he wasn't wrong.

Right. He wasn't fucking wrong. And I can't say that I really think that the way the landscape has changed for musicians making music nowadays via streaming platforms is better becauseit sucks.

Just ask any musician. Hi. Yeah. Yeah. Pete Barchiga here.

Um it fucking but yeah dude i remember that um and and pavement was probably.

[7:20] Yeah they were probably the band that i had the first band that i had really discovered via like napster like i had heard the floyd i had heard guns and roses i had heard all the ledzeppelin shit on cd prior to that i had friends who had all those albums and i had a lot of those albums but like I didn't have any pavement I had no idea who they were you know so like I,I guess you could say that like, cause I mean, nowadays, I mean, I bought, I've bought all the records I've seen fucking pavement three or four times. I've seen Malcolm as countless times.

Track 5:

[8:00] Um.

Track 6:

[8:00] I've bought their records, bought their merch, paid for their concerts.

Like, so there's sort of a case to be made that like Napster helped me fall in love with that band.

Track 5:

[8:11] You know.

Track 6:

[8:11] It just was a really slow burn.

Track 5:

[8:14] You know.

Track 6:

[8:15] For the band. It wasn't like, Hey, I bought your record.

Or do you get this much money from it it's like hey i'm gonna fucking steal all your music and then 20 years later it'll that investment will you know appreciate if you will when you thinkabout how many different formats there have been for these for these properties right like that we you know that we that we bought different versions of them on cassette and then on cdand then back Back to LPs, in the middle, MP3s, you know, like.

Track 5:

[8:50] Yes.

Track 6:

[8:50] You could steal on Napster, but, you know, you could also buy on iTunes.

And, like, my digital library is just a mess now, you know?

It's just a mess of stuff that I've imported in, Apple Music, and then stuff that I've bought.

And it's like, my play counts don't work correctly.

And it's really, you know, just a mess.

Yeah i remember back in the day before apple really got a hold on like you know encoding.

[9:21] Having software that basically prevented pirating you know i would borrow friend cds and rip them to my hard drive put them on my ipod if i didn't have those cds and i waslistening to them that way um and then you know the iphone came out that sort of changed everything but it's interesting you say that about the different formats because i rememberbefore moving to europe the first time a friend of mine who is a huge apple guy like i think he's a former employee like you as well told me he said don't sell your media keep your mediado not wow like told me and i was like good out of here like yeah i didn't listen to him obviously no i didn't either and it's like god like i would have it all i would have all my cds still ihave some cds ironically most of my pavement stuff i never sold like that was the only real band and a few other gems but it's funny bring up the the different formats like vinyl cd tapeand then now what we're looking at is the fucking the reissues with the b-sides and the blah blah blahs and yes yeah and like.

Track 1:

[10:42] It's cool if you're like a Pokemon.

Track 6:

[10:48] Got to catch them all kind of guy. And I know, like, I guess what I'm trying to say is the right way because I don't want to sound like a prick.

But I think I'm going to sound like a prick either way. So I'll just say it.

Track 5:

[11:04] Like.

Track 6:

[11:05] I was reading something about Taylor Swift recently, who's got more money than God.

Track 1:

[11:09] And you know she's coming out with like how they kind of like not scam their fans but like you know they'll come out with the same record but like the green edition and it's thisone's gold now get the gold one it's the same fucking record but this one's gold and it's like, and you know most of the Taylor Swift fans are you know, not I'm not knocking Taylor Swiftor her fans but I'm just saying like, if zepp if zeppelin came out with fucking you know houses of the holy and then and i got just a regular standard black vinyl and they came out with likea translucent one i tell robert plant to go fuck himself like you got my money already dude same fucking songs i don't need to fucking get a different edition but you know i guess it's coolif you if you if it's the only only one you have but when you're buying the same record over and over it's kind of like but then on the other hand when it comes to payment dude like dudevery few bands make money you don't really make money on vinyl even nowadays no matter how much you produce you know, they're making money on touring yeah.

Track 6:

[12:25] I mean, and you can see that, right? They're touring their faces off right now.

Track 5:

[12:29] You know?

Track 6:

[12:30] Yeah, I mean... They're putting in their time. Yeah, yeah.

What's the... I don't know who it was. I think I've heard Spiral talk about it before.

Track 5:

[12:38] But vinyls.

Track 6:

[12:40] The point of vinyl records, and I said this too, are not to make money off of them.

They're really an indicator of who's going to go to your shows, who's going to spend that $50 or $75 or whatever it is to go to your show.

Because if somebody's committed to buy a vinyl of your band, chances are they love you enough to go plunk down $50 for a ticket. Yeah, that makes sense.

[13:09] $50 for beers. and that's money that that goes more directly in the band's pocket than you know vinyl record but what do i know i'm i'm you know even though that's true i'm stillwaiting like to build my pavement vinyl collection because i'm hopeful that they'll release like the sordid sentinels edition the elli's desert origin edition like the big boxes for vinyl like i'mreally hopeful because right now i've got them on cd and the book you know the booklet that it comes with is fine but when you see the terror twilight booklet the farewell horizontalbooklet it's like it's big and it's you know it's juicy i don't know it's really the design work that goes into it really stands out so much more and uh i'm so hopeful they do that but what itmeans is i don't have a tremendous amount of pavement on vinyl i've got uh i've got watery domestic and i've got the major leagues ep and i've got terror twilight.

[14:18] Farewell horizons and i've got uh a funny version of slanted the the version of slanted that is just like red and black.

Don't you have the, don't you have like demolition plot or something or no?

Yeah, I have, I have those. I have them hanging on my wall in like a display. Okay.

Those are nothing, man. Yeah. It's pretty cool. People don't have those.

Those are worth some money. Yeah.

Well, the one I paid quite a bit for.

It's weird that it's on my wall now. Now that I have a turntable.

I didn't have a turntable before.

Track 5:

[14:59] You know.

Track 6:

[15:00] Like, dude, if I'm going to listen to pavement shit on vinyl, because I have a fair amount of other stuff on vinyl, i'll do it where i'll listen to them sequentially with like a friend orlike just be like i'm gonna put on some pavement today it's very rare that i will like be like i'm gonna put on fucking, slanted on vinyl right you know i have a shitty copy of slanted i thinki bought it online through like fucking urban outfitters or some shit when when they thought that you know when when pavement was the cool thing again, once again in like the, youknow, cause I never had that record, but.

Track 1:

[15:44] But yeah.

Track 6:

[15:45] I, I don't know. I mean, cause I got all the shit. If I ever want to listen to it, you can listen to it on, on, you know, Spotify or Apple or whatever.

Yeah. And now they're lossless, right? Like, so, you know, they sound much better and I don't know.

What do you think? It's an interesting conversation. Yeah, definitely.

Track 1:

[16:07] What do you think we head over to the other side.

Track 6:

[16:10] Though?

Track 2:

[16:10] We'll listen to track 41, and then we'll come back and talk about it.

Track 6:

[16:14] Let's do it. Let's do it. All right, let's do it. We'll be right back after this.

Track 5:

[16:19] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.

And now on with a countdown.

Track 2:

[16:27] 41.

So there it is. Major Leagues is number 41 on the countdown.

It is the fifth track on Terror Twilight, and it's the eighth track if you're using the Goderich sequencing.

It's on the second side of the Terror Twilight reissue, third track. So it's the eighth song.

Track 6:

[20:15] This is the second song from Terror Twilight on the countdown.

You Are a Light was number 45.

Track 2:

[20:21] And here we are at number 41. with major leagues pete what do you think so i love this song um i was talking earlier about you know the the early days of me discoveringpavement and those burned mp3 cds and i always loved this song um i mean this song was the soundtrack to breakups and and heartaches and and Lonely Times.

Track 6:

[20:50] Getting out of shitty dive bars with my buddy Mo.

And, you know, this song, because I think I said too earlier, I alluded to the fact that there were, that I didn't know, I couldn't differentiate yet, which was Pavement and which was, youknow, Malcolm is the Solo stuff.

Stuff this this has some very much some early malcolmus and the jicks vibes totally i call this the beta test yeah it's very church i get some church on white vibes yeah it's good yeah thebeta test that's well done well said yeah it's it sounds very similar to that quality but one thing i i noticed listening to it um i don't know recently was like.

[21:41] Um the the harmonies the in the back towards the end of the song are just like i i don't know that i ever noticed that i don't kind of i didn't notice it either until today let's sit on thebig cans and there's also this weird weird sound occasionally in the song like uh some sort of electronic static that comes up like two or three times in in the song very subtle very weird i Ihave written down that this is like one of the most dense pavement songs I can think of.

Like there's very little space. And I don't mean that as a critique, just an observation, but songs by pavement are typically very sparse.

And this is, you know, there's obviously Godrich is, you know, building this sort of soundscape and then SM with the, with the lovely vocal tone, like just really lovely.

Track 5:

[22:39] You know.

Track 6:

[22:40] Know this would be a song i would grab for anybody that says sm can't sing you know i'd be like you're crazy first of all but here listen to this and tell me this man can't sing well imean i still get that people will say that because those are the people who are just like you know they just don't really get music i think they think everything should sound like a perfectpop song and that's just not music but right um yeah i i i heard the i haven't heard the hiss but this song is chock full it's it's weighty it's got some fucking meat to it and yeah i don't knowif he's doing a you know a phil specter wall of sound sort of shit trying to have no empty space or, or what but i think it may have something to do with that is it like a little drum track orsomething at the very end that kind of trails off the song it sounds like a repeating drum right.

[23:40] Yeah um or some sort of like some sort of sequencer but um yeah i was gonna mention one other thing about when you're talking about the weight of the song but yeah i mean it'sit's It's, oh, the first line, lip balm on watery clay is just, I mean, dude, it's, if you could have just said that and then just, the song was an instrumental called Lip Balm on Watery Clay, Iwould have been like, fuck, dude.

I mean it's relationships hey hey hey fuck dude like just it smacks of just, 90s breakup fucking early 2000s just oh god i this is one of the very few songs that when i hear it i immediatelyget transported like back to.

Track 1:

[24:38] Images and situations and smells and states of being yeah wow this is a big one for you oh i and a lot of people like say that like oh it's it's not one it's not one of my favorites like ican't say that shit and i i applaud you for doing the doing the countdown in my eyes is it's always different you know yeah yeah yeah this is you know yeah it's fun i got it cool yeah this iswater cooler talk right exactly and it's great to to get together and, to chat i just i i find it funny the people that want to go to the mat, over shit you know well that leads to my next questionthen one of the questions i've been asking every episode is do you think this song is fairly rated at 42 should it be higher should it be lower is it just right like for you i would say it's a littlehigh up i would say it should be a little it should be a little closer to closer it's a top 40 song is what you're saying yeah Yeah.

Track 6:

[25:51] Yeah. I mean, it is really... I think over the last four years, five years since the whole...

[26:03] Uh pavement mania yeah landed in america once again you know um with the primavera 2019 announcement all that your podcast i think people are more um heady so you'regonna get people that like fucking the the deep cuts the the half of canyons the fucking best friends armed you know the the shit like that that are really good songs if you're a hardcorepayment fan but like top 50 songs with their massive catalog my mom wants to know about pavement i'm not gonna put on fucking you know uh flux rat or fucking uh i'm just thinking ofshit off like wowie zowie right now right right you know it's no i'll put on major leagues is gonna be one of the first like and equally i was burning a lot of fucking albums back in the dayyou know that's what you did when you when you liked a girl made a record absolutely burned her cd and this song absolutely made it i mean this is major leagues this is i remember thebartender at my at my local local marla i was so in love with her and uh i i burned a copy of sm's solo record for her.

[27:33] And you know slipped it to her one night at the bar it's like you just have to listen to this i'm not going to tell you anything else you just have to listen to this you know i wanted herto hear church on white so bad but i didn't want to tell her play church on white you know yeah i just I just wanted it to happen organically if I could. But.

Track 5:

[27:52] You know.

Track 6:

[27:52] Yeah. Those were the days, man.

I mean, I think nowadays, too, with so much music at your fingertips, it's really hard to get into a record.

Because even when you get into a record, it's like you get into it and you let it go and there's something new.

Track 1:

[28:16] Knew you don't have to work for it anymore man right even even those even those early, napster days man you know you didn't i was on a 56k for a long time man i have nofucking t1, i knew people that had a t1 and i was like if i got a fucking pave song uh that i was downloading or some pavement tunes i mean i had to wait for those months and i had to sitand say and a lot A lot of times.

Track 6:

[28:45] Sometimes you get close to a download, it's going for like 30 minutes, and then right at the end, the fucking user drops off or, you know, it was horrible.

It's horrible. Yeah, torrents change the game. Yeah, yeah.

But nowadays you just, you don't, you don't have to work for anything.

It's just, you have the world. It's kind of, I don't know.

I tell that to my kids all the time. I tell that to my kids all the time.

And that's why, one of the reasons I started collecting vinyl now and got a good turntable is because.

Track 5:

[29:21] Like.

Track 6:

[29:22] I want them to see that it's, like, something that is tangible.

Like, somebody created this. Somebody made this. and it's not just this thing that lives in your phone and you know i think that's important for them you know no that's that's a really fairpoint and i i get that too and i dig it and i want to build up my media in that respects because and i think we you and i have either had this conversation privately or we've mentioned it onother platforms but there's this really really famous interview that was done in.

Track 5:

[29:57] Man.

Track 6:

[29:58] I want to say 2010. I don't remember when it was, but it was David Bowie.

And it was before he died in 2016 or whatever it was.

And he said, in the future, everything will be subscription-based.

And this was before... I think the only streaming service, Apple wasn't out yet, Spotify wasn't out yet.

The only streaming service was Pandora.

Right. I remember Pandora. And it was like, I think they had just maybe launched a premium, like, if you wanted it without commercials.

Track 5:

[30:35] You know.

Track 6:

[30:36] None of this unlimited, and you still couldn't, at the time, listen to anything you wanted on Pandora. You couldn't just call up a song.

It was like you could go to radio stations and, you know, this and that.

But nowadays, everything's a fucking subscription.

You want, oh, you want fresh food delivered to your house and pre-done meals for five days a week?

Subscription. Do you want...

Fucking, you name it, man. I mean, I think Uber Eats and shit like that has subscriptions. They do. People.

Track 5:

[31:06] Everything.

Track 6:

[31:08] Well, I don't know if you had a chance. Did you have a chance to listen to the Spiral interview? The latest one?

Track 5:

[31:13] I did.

Track 6:

[31:14] And ask me why. And he talks about Pavement potentially doing a subscription-based live record sort of thing.

Right. Yes, I do remember him mentioning that. Because they've got a whole bunch of live...

Live uh dats that they got access to and then they've been taping a bunch of the more recent shows so they might release live records on the like there might be a pavement sub somehowyeah i don't know well i'll tell you what i think they're they're in a they're they're getting under the wire enough to where they can fucking um you know i i i want the best for the boys manAnd they deserve all that's coming to them.

And if they decide to do a subscription model and whatever fucking more power to them, I will say that not now, but I think probably in another five to six years.

Track 5:

[32:12] I think...

It's it's gonna we're we're gonna reach critical mass it's gonna change because i think uh just streaming everything not just music but movies and netflix and all like you know what irealized i watched we canceled this is a more personal shit but we canceled like our netflix disney plus fucking hbo we had all those fucking streaming platforms now we have of amazonand i think that's it because you know we have like an amazon prime account and i watched probably just as much fucking streaming as i did before i'm just not pissing away fucking, youknow 80 extra bucks a month it's fun that's a good way to do it just stick with one, and then suck it dry and then you know but it's not that's the other thing too it never goes dry becauseevery like 30 days they put new fucking shit on there and it's like true good point you can get away unless you're like you're obsessed with the marvel universe or you've got to watchwhatever i mean i know there are some staples on like things like you know people go to netflix for stranger things some people go to spotify for joe rogan shit like that i get that those areyou know flagship products of those companies but i think for the most part like Like.

Track 1:

[33:37] Am I going to have a HelloFresh subscription so I can get fresh potatoes and fuck out of here with that shit?

Track 6:

[33:46] No offense if they're coming on as a sponsor soon. Take it back. Edit this out.

Anything else about Major Leagues?

Anything else you want to say about it?

Track 1:

[34:01] I think it's a really dynamic song.

Track 6:

[34:03] I think it's a song that is just... It's so unique, man.

And the piano that is playing, I'm stupid when it comes to instruments, but it's some sort of effect.

It sounds like a really unique old piano. Yeah, it really does.

It's very bassy. It's very, you know.

Track 5:

[34:27] Well.

Track 6:

[34:28] It's got some cool chorus reverb to it.

It's really cool. And I love it.

Track 1:

[34:38] Yeah I don't know what you want no that's fine yeah it's a soundtrack if I want to put a cap on it it is a soundtrack to a window, into a certain time in my life that I just the songtransports me there immediately it's amazing what a trick the band are magicians in that respect, they know the tricks what's that?

Track 6:

[35:02] They're ex-magicians but they still know the tricks ex-magicians Does that go over my head? Trigger cut, on that note pete uh do you have anything you want to plug any anywherethat anybody can go and find your work uh yeah yeah if they i mean we're we're marchica on apple spotify we have new record coming out um in april or may of this year it's taken longenough it's coming coming out on my label records it's spelled like um not and not it's not the same meaning but it's m-a-i-l-e-i-b-e-l oh my label records so it's coming out in um yeahmay april may cool so we'll look for that yeah awesome well it's been great having you on of course uh great talking to you about a myriad of things.

We'll do this again soon.

Track 3:

[36:08] Thanks.

Track 6:

[36:08] Man. Good to see you. That's all I got for you this week. So stay cool and wash your goddamn hands.

Track 3:

[36:15] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmus, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you.

If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email.

JD at meetingmalcolmus.com.

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