In this episode, Rachel speaks with Jon Atack about Scientology, authoritarianism, and the ways belief systems can shape behavior. Jon reflects on his experience with Scientology, the harassment he encountered after speaking out, and the contradictions he found within its teachings. Rachel and Jon examine moral injury, magical thinking, othering, certainty, and the difficulty of psychologically separating from a controlling group. They also discuss developing a sense of self, compassion, and humility, the role of humor in recovery, and Jon’s return to painting, writing, music, and other interests outside his work on cults.

Jon's Links:

https://jonatack.co.uk/

Links:

https://linktr.ee/indoctrination

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more:

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation:

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Jules Evans and Rachel discuss the overlap between psychedelic culture, therapeutic abuse, cultic dynamics, and coercive control. Drawing from Jules’ research into post-psychedelic difficulties and Rachel’s decades of counseling former cult members, they examine how charismatic facilitators and leaders can exploit trust, vulnerability, awe, and the desire for healing.

They explore guruism, dependency, group pressure, psychedelic therapy, AI-based spiritual movements, family-like power structures, and the risks of unregulated facilitators. They also discuss ways people can regain agency after harmful experiences and what to consider when assessing the safety and qualifications of psychedelic practitioners.

Jules Links:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUE70klJkkikBFQdAqf27Jw

https://www.ecstaticintegration.org/

https://challengingpsychedelicexperiences.com/

Connect with us on social media:

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more:

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation:

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel welcomes back Renee Swanson, host of the Covert Narcissism Podcast, to discuss the often-invisible impact of covert narcissistic relationships. Renee explains why self-reflective people can internalize blame, how emotional and psychological threats affect the body, and why anger, hypervigilance, fear, obligation, and guilt can keep people trapped. Rachel and Renee also examine narcissistic rage, manipulation, isolation, remorse, and the difficulty of identifying subtle abuse. They close by exploring how survivors can recognize red flags within themselves, rebuild trust in their own feelings, and begin healing before entering new relationships.

Links:

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more:

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation:

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

Covert Narcissism:

https://covertnarcissism.com

Covert Narcissism Group on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/covertnarcissism/

Covert Narcissism Podcast

https://thecovertnarcissismpodcast.podbean.com/

Covert Narcissism Group on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/covertnarcissism/

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon-exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 

In this special bonus episode, Rachel dives into a thought-provoking quote by Friedrich Nietzsche: "They muddy the waters to make them seem deep," reflecting on how individuals in positions of authority can obscure clarity and understanding. Rachel examines the social dynamics that can leave individuals feeling inadequate or confused in the presence of seemingly profound teachings.

Through personal anecdotes and keen observations, she highlights how the pressure to conform within a group can lead to a false sense of depth in spiritual or philosophical discussions, often resulting in a collective misunderstanding. Rachel encourages listeners to critically evaluate the information presented to them, especially when it comes from charismatic leaders or organizations that may prioritize performance over genuine understanding.

This episode serves as a reminder that not everything that sounds complex is inherently valuable, and it's essential to trust one's instincts when faced with confusing or contradictory teachings. Join Rachel as she navigates these intricate themes, empowering listeners to seek clarity and authenticity in their spiritual journeys.

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel welcomes Hoyt Richards back to discuss how he transformed his experience in the Eternal Values group into public education and survivor advocacy. Hoyt explains the difference between intellectually understanding coercive influence and emotionally processing it, why taking ownership can be empowering without becoming self-blame, and how “micro compromises” weaken a person’s trust in their inner voice. They also examine the limits of true-crime storytelling, the ripple effects on families and friends, the long process of rebuilding relationships, and Hoyt’s work with Living Cult-Free to help survivors reclaim their voices through creative expression.

Hoyt's Website:

https://www.hoytrichards.com/

Connect with us on social media:

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more:

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation:

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this compelling episode, Rachel welcomes back Pamela Nickel Williams, who shares her profound journey of growing up in Scientology as a second-generation member. Pamela reflects on the complex dynamics of her family relationships, particularly the devotion to an organization that often overshadowed personal connections and well-being. With the anniversary of her book, Clearly Lies Are True, approaching, Pamela discusses the unexpected ways her story has resonated with a broader audience beyond just former Scientologists.

As she recounts her experiences, Pamela delves into the themes of trauma, healing, and the universality of her story, which touches on issues of sexual abuse and the struggles of navigating life within a high-control group. She shares powerful anecdotes from her book tours, revealing how readers from various backgrounds have connected with her narrative of survival and resilience. These interactions highlight the importance of sharing one's truth and the impact it can have on others who have faced similar challenges.

Throughout the episode, Rachel and Pamela explore the complexities of forgiveness, the journey of reclaiming one's identity, and the vital conversations that emerge when stories are told. Pamela emphasizes that while her past has shaped her, it does not define her, and she is committed to using her voice to advocate for those still trapped in similar situations. Join Rachel and Pamela as they navigate this enlightening discussion about the power of storytelling and the hope it can inspire in others.

Find out more about Pamela and her book here:

https://www.clearlyliesaretrue.com/

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

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https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon-exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 

In this bonus episode, Rachel explores the complex phenomenon of dissociation, particularly in individuals who have experienced trauma or been involved in cultic environments. Drawing from her recent workshops at the International Cultic Studies Association conference, Rachel discusses how dissociation can manifest as a protective mechanism, allowing individuals to cope with overwhelming situations.

Listeners will gain insights into the reasons behind dissociation, including its roots in trauma and sensory overload, as well as its implications for mental health. Rachel emphasizes the importance of understanding and compassion for those who dissociate, urging listeners to avoid shaming or pressuring individuals during conversations. She shares a poignant case study that illustrates the nuanced reasons behind dissociation, highlighting the need for clinicians to approach each individual with care and curiosity.

This episode serves as a reminder that everyone's experiences are unique, and understanding the underlying causes of dissociation can pave the way for healing and reconnection with reality. Join Rachel as she navigates this vital topic, providing valuable perspectives for survivors and mental health professionals alike.

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this gripping episode, Rachel sits down with Sarah Green, the daughter of a former cult leader, to explore her harrowing journey growing up in a paramilitary religious organization known as the Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps. Sarah shares her firsthand experiences of the chaos and unpredictability that defined her childhood, from moving 54 times before the age of ten to being subjected to the whims of her mother, who claimed to receive divine guidance.

As Sarah recounts her struggles for autonomy, including a daring attempt to enroll herself in high school, listeners gain insight into the psychological toll of living in an environment where love and acceptance were conditional. Sarah's story highlights the profound effects of growing up in a high-control group, where questioning authority often led to severe repercussions.

Throughout the episode, Rachel and Sarah delve into themes of resilience, agency, and the complexities of familial relationships in the face of manipulation and abuse. Sarah's journey to reclaim her identity and create a nurturing environment for her own children serves as a powerful testament to the strength of the human spirit. Join Rachel and Sarah as they navigate this remarkable and emotional tale of survival and healing.

Listen to our previous episode on Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps with Harrison Hill:

https://youtu.be/U27pZDhKY_0?si=MUNjGwqa4q8yWDB1

The Oracle's Daughter: The Rise and Fall of an American Cult:

https://a.co/d/04Tsxjze

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel welcomes back Chris Shelton, a former Scientologist and author of the new book, What Now? They dive deep into Chris's experiences, discussing the complexities of recovery from high-control groups and the importance of understanding one's own moral framework. Chris shares insights from his extensive studies in coercive control and introduces his REM model, which explores the layers of consciousness, morality, emotions, and rationality that influence human behavior.

Chris reflects on his journey of escaping Scientology, the challenges of grappling with guilt and moral injury, and the transformative power of education in recovery. He emphasizes the significance of self-compassion and the idea that most people are well-intentioned, even when caught in harmful systems. As they navigate these profound topics, Chris offers practical advice for those seeking to rebuild their lives after cult experiences, highlighting the necessity of agency in the recovery process.

Join Rachel and Chris for a thought-provoking conversation that sheds light on the path to healing and the tools needed to foster a fulfilling life post-cult.

Chris’s Links:

Website: https://chrissheltonmsc.org/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisSheltonMsc

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon-exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 

In this exclusive Patreon bonus episode, Rachel shares her reflections on the importance of agency and consent in our interactions with others. Drawing from a seemingly casual conversation with a yoga instructor at a music festival, Rachel explores the deeper implications of how we communicate and engage with each other, particularly in contexts that involve personal boundaries.

Through this insightful dialogue, listeners are encouraged to recognize their own boundaries and the importance of being asked for consent in all areas of life. Rachel urges everyone to be vigilant about the dynamics of their relationships, especially when faced with pressure from others who may not prioritize their well-being.

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel Bernstein welcomes back Andrew Jasko, a religious trauma and cult specialist, for a thought-provoking discussion on the potential pitfalls of the Law of Attraction, also known as manifestation. Andrew delves into the historical roots of this philosophy, tracing its connections to the New Thought Church movement, and examines how its teachings can lead to psychological harm and victim-blaming.

As they explore the nuances of spirituality and personal responsibility, Rachel and Andrew address the dangers of magical thinking and the misconceptions surrounding the idea that one's thoughts alone can shape reality. They discuss the implications of this belief on mental health, including the pressure it creates for individuals to take sole responsibility for their circumstances, often leading to denial and shame when things go wrong.

Through this engaging conversation, listeners will gain insight into the complexities of manifestation, the importance of critical thinking, and the necessity of acknowledging all emotions—both positive and negative. Andrew emphasizes the value of integrating various aspects of our experience to foster genuine healing and empowerment, rather than succumbing to the oversimplifications of the Law of Attraction.

Andrew’s Links:

Website: https://lifeafterdogma.org/

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel welcomes back Elise Heerde, a mental health practitioner and co-director of the Religious Trauma Collective in Australia. Together, they delve into the complexities of religious trauma, cult recovery, and the ethical considerations surrounding exit counseling. Elise shares her journey and insights gained from her work with survivors, emphasizing the importance of agency and choice during the recovery process.

Elise discusses the evolution of terminology in the field, moving from 'deprogramming' to 'exit counseling,' and the implications of these terms on the approach to helping individuals leave high-control groups. They explore the nuanced dynamics involved in supporting both survivors and their families, highlighting the need for long-term scaffolding and community support to facilitate healing. The conversation also touches on the potential pitfalls of media portrayals of cults and the importance of trauma-informed practices when sharing survivor stories.

Join Rachel and Elise as they navigate these vital topics, providing valuable insights for practitioners and families alike, while advocating for a compassionate and ethical approach to recovery.

Elise’s Links

Website: https://www.eliseheerde.com/

Religious Trauma Collective: https://religioustraumaandcults.com/

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon-exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 

In this Patreon bonus episode, Rachel Bernstein discusses how difficult it can be to be the lone dissenting voice when others admire a narcissistic partner or cult leader. She describes serving on a jury involving an unhoused African American man accused of a store break-in based on grainy security footage, where other jurors argued the evidence was “close enough” and pushed for a quick unanimous verdict to avoid discomfort. When Rachel insisted there wasn’t enough evidence, they faced shunning and personal attacks, which strengthened their resolve. The experience is used to illustrate scapegoating, social pressure, and how crucial it is for friends and family to reassure isolated people in controlling or cultic situations that they’re not alone and safe to change their minds. 

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel Bernstein speaks with Melissa Duge Spiers, who talks about growing up inside the Seventh-day Adventist Church — and the hidden cost of its end-times, high-control culture. Her book, ‘Holy Disobedience: Sex, Sin, and Secrets in the Biggest Church No One Knows,’ traces Adventism's roots back to the 1840s Millerite movement and the visions of prophet Ellen White, whose experiences Spiers connects to traumatic brain injury and temporal lobe epilepsy.

Melissa unpacks how information control, purity culture, and anti-LGBTQ teachings shaped her patriarchal, fear-based upbringing, and how those same dynamics played out in the church's boarding academies. She shares what it took to leave at 18, the devastating discovery that followed about her own father, and how that truth cracked open a much deeper reckoning with everything she'd been taught. This conversation covers religious trauma, institutional betrayal, and how social media is helping ex-Adventists find each other and speak out.

Melissa’s Links

Book: https://www.lakedrivebooks.com/books/holy-disobedience/

Substack: https://melissadugespiers.substack.com/about

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.glory.whole/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theglorywhole

Connect with us on social media: 

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Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

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https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode of IndoctriNation, Rachel Bernstein, LMFT, MSEd, welcomes back Andrew Jasko, psychotherapist and comparative religion scholar, for a deep and honest conversation about growing up inside evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity — and the long road to recovery from religious trauma.

Andrew grew up as a minister's son, immersed in a world of intense devotion, purity culture, missionary ambitions, and fear of eternal punishment. What he didn't yet have language for were the lasting psychological effects: shame, anxiety, religious OCD, sexual repression, thought policing, and hell trauma. Through therapy, he came to understand these not as personal failings, but as predictable outcomes of a high-control, fear-based system — one that functions much like narcissistic abuse.

Rachel and Andrew also explore the broader cultural forces that sustain spiritual abuse, including biblical mistranslations, harmful theological ideologies, and evangelism as a guilt-driven form of religious imperialism. Their conversation closes on the themes at the heart of cult recovery: reclaiming agency, rebuilding self-trust, learning to set boundaries, and finding wholeness within lived experience.

Andrew’s Links

Website: https://lifeafterdogma.org/

Connect with us on social media: 

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Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

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https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 

In this Patreon bonus episode, Rachel Bernstein reflects on cult survivor and former supermodel Hoyt Richards and provides background on the high-control group at the center of HBO's 'Bring Me The Beauties: A Model Cult.'

The group was led by Frederick von Mierers, a self-styled Manhattan socialite claiming authority from alien beings. He recruited through Studio 54, high-society circles, seminars, and media. Members endured public "slamming" sessions, strict behavioral control, financial exploitation, and apocalyptic preparation at a North Carolina compound.

Richards joined in the late 1970s, spent nearly two decades inside, and became one of the group's primary financial backers. His exit in 1999 contributed to the group's collapse. He has since spoken publicly through the BBC and the HBO docuseries and has worked with Rachel on cases. Hoyt Richards will return for a future episode.

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Carol Merchasin returns, and this time, Rachel and Carol go deep on what it actually looks like when survivors of coercive control, spiritual abuse, and high-control groups consider taking legal action.

Carol shares how her career shifted from corporate employment investigations to building a litigation practice focused on religious misconduct and cultic settings, and what landmark cases reveal about how the law interprets coercion, consent, and systems of control.

What happens when a survivor wants justice, but the legal system wasn't built for them? Carol walks through the real barriers: statutes of limitations, evidence demands, credibility challenges, and the emotional toll of depositions and mediation, especially for those carrying religious trauma or the psychological weight of cult recovery.

She also explains how the right litigation team can become part of the healing process, why journals and social media posts matter more than most people realize, and what truly trauma-informed support looks like when therapy and legal advocacy work together.

Plus: Carol shares her role as ICSA board president and highlights the upcoming ICSA conference in San Diego on July 1 — a vital gathering for researchers, clinicians, and advocates working at the intersection of faith deconstruction, coercive control, and survivor justice.

Carol’s Links

ICSA Conference: https://internationalculticstudies.org/

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Rachel Bernstein, LMFT, MSEd, sits down with Jared Stacy, PhD, who is a theologian and ethicist. He is the author of "Reality in Ruins: How Conspiracy Theory Became an Evangelical Crisis." They sit down for a deeply personal and clinically resonant conversation about radicalization, religious trauma, coercive belonging, and the courage it takes to say "I don't know."

Jared grew up inside fundamentalist evangelical Christianity, attended Liberty University, and was a pastor before a years-long crisis of faith led him to Scotland — and eventually back home. His book draws on that journey to examine how conspiratorial thinking takes root in high-control religious communities, and why belonging and certainty can be prioritized — fueling everything from QAnon to Christian nationalism to the weaponization of forgiveness in abusive church settings. If you've ever watched someone you love disappear into a belief system you don't recognize, this conversation is for you. 

Jared Stacy’s Links

Website: https://jaredstacy.com/about/

Book: https://www.amazon.com/Reality-Ruins-Conspiracy-American-Evangelical/dp/0063453754

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This is just a preview of our Patreon exclusive Bonus Episode. You can hear the full episode by becoming a member at:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination 

In this Patreon bonus episode, host Rachel Bernstein, LMFT, examines how victim blaming functions across abusive relationships, sexual violence, cults, and high-control religious environments — and why it remains one of the most pervasive obstacles to survivor recovery.

Rachel discusses why those who cause harm often present as calm and credible while survivors, navigating the effects of trauma, are met with skepticism. She explores the role of guilt in maintaining emotional captivity, and how coercive control can be obscured through isolation, financial manipulation, reality distortion, dependency, and the gradual erosion of identity. The conversation offers language, context, and validation for survivors working to understand their experiences, as well as insight for those supporting them.

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this episode, Daniella Mestyanek Young returns to IndoctriNation to discuss how cults exploit group dynamics. Born three generations into the Children of God, then a U.S. Army intelligence officer, Daniella has spent her career studying coercive control from the inside out. In her new book The Culting of America, she lays out a 10-part model of cult tactics — the same playbook used in religious cults, high-control workplaces, the military, single-family cults, and even fandoms.

Rachel Bernstein and Daniella Mestyanek Young unpack why social proof makes us doubt our own eyes, why every cult seems to promise some version of "space travel," and what really separates brainwashing children from brainwashing adults. They also get into the warning signs every parent, employee, and former believer should know — and the small, daily reframes that loosen a coercive grip.

Daniella’s Links

Book: https://knittingcultlady.com/products/the-culting-of-america?variant=45519679160451

Website: https://knittingcultlady.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daniellamyoung_/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@knittingcultladycaptain

Connect with us on social media: 

⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/indoctrination⁠⁠

Support IndoctriNation on Patreon for exclusive bonus episodes and more: 

https://www.patreon.com/indoctrination⁠

Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link:

https://www.paypal.biz/indoctriNATION

Watch full video episodes of IndoctriNation here:

⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNAi0T2hzH9dM029dkTfj635PzuXl67jS⁠⁠

Restart and Restore: A Journal for Survivors of Manipulation: 

https://a.co/d/1ssz4Rm

Restart and Restore: Companion Notebook:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FSCLTZN4

Download a Free Chapter from Restart and Restore:

https://education.rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restart-and-restore-campaign

Journal App: 

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/restore-journal-app.html

Download Rachel’s Video Lectures and Webinars here:

https://rachelbernsteintherapy.com/videos.html

IndoctriNation is edited by The Podcast Consultant:

⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com/about

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands