Most MSPs are being sold AI. Rutger Katz thinks they're being sold the wrong thing first.

In this episode, James Steel talks to the RevOps consultant and former Capgemini data and AI specialist about what actually needs to be in place before AI delivers any value, and what the competitive landscape looks like for MSPs who skip the boring work.

What you'll learn:

→ Why AI makes bad data worse, not better (and what to fix first)

→ How to document a sales process when none exists (the ride-along method) 

→ Where revenue disappears in the sales-to-delivery handover, and how to stop it 

→ How to apply theory of constraints to find your real bottleneck 

→ What a "digital brain twin" is and how to build one using Obsidian and Claude 

→ Why the fractional AI operations role is the next big hire for growing MSPs 

→ The competitive threat that's two years away, and why it matters now

_______

Rutger Katz is a Revenue Operations consultant and founder of Neon Triforce.

With a background in neuroscience and 14 years spanning Capgemini, enterprise technology adoption, and AI implementation, he now works fractionally with smaller organisations to build the data and process foundations that make AI genuinely useful. 

Connect with Rutger on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rutgerkatz/

_______

About Harvest!

Harvest! The MSP Sales Show is the podcast for MSPs who want to grow smarter from the clients they already have. New episodes weekly, hosted by James Steel and sponsored by Salesbuildr — the quotation and proposal platform for MSPs.

Chapters 

00:00 Introduction 

02:30 What is Revenue Operations, and why it's not just the CRM guy 

07:00 Rutger's background: neuroscience, Capgemini, social robots 

14:00 Why AI fails without the right data and process foundations 

21:00 How to document a process when none exists 

26:00 The handover problem, where MSP revenue leaks 

29:00 Theory of constraints and finding the real bottleneck 

34:00 When AI finally enters the picture 

38:00 Building a digital brain twin with Obsidian and Claude 

42:00 The competitive threat, and the fractional AI role 

45:00 Industry Manure: stop buying AI tools 

48:00 Pass the Pitchfork 

50:00 Yell from the barn: Rutger's work and where to find him

Links 

🔗 Rutger Katz on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rutkatz 

🌐 Neon Triforce: neontriforce.com 

📊 Salesbuildr (sponsor): salesbuildr.com 

🎙️ Subscribe to Harvest!: salesbuildr.com/podcast

Tags MSP, managed services, revenue operations, RevOps, AI strategy, AI readiness, lean management, theory of constraints, process improvement, MSP sales, MSP growth, IT channel, Harvest podcast, Rutger Katz, Neon Triforce, Salesbuildr, James Steel, sales process, business operations, AI tools

In this episode, we sit down with Peter Kujawa, VP of Service Leadership at ConnectWise, to explore why so many MSPs are unknowingly losing money on the clients they've had the longest, and what the data says about fixing it.

Peter brings 21 years of MSP benchmarking experience through Service Leadership Inc., tracking financial and operational performance across hundreds of managed service providers worldwide every quarter.

In this conversation, recorded live at IT Nation Connect Europe in London, he shares what separates the most profitable MSPs from the rest, and why the gap almost always comes down to pricing, not technology.

If you run or lead a Managed Service Provider and want to understand what the benchmarking data actually shows about growing revenue from your existing customer base, this episode is essential listening.

⸻

What you'll learn in this episode:

• Why pricing is the number one gap between high- and low-performing MSPs

• How to analyse profitability per customer, not just in aggregate

• Why the land-and-expand strategy works less than 20% of the time

• How to attract strategic buyers and filter out price-point buyers

• The 15-customer rule for adding new products without breaking your service factory

• Why nobody has cracked AI recurring revenue for MSPs yet, and what to focus on instead

⸻

Peter Kujawa is VP of Service Leadership at ConnectWise, leading the benchmarking and peer group division that has tracked MSP profitability across 10 business models worldwide for 21 consecutive years. Before joining ConnectWise, Peter ran his own MSP for 11 years — not as a technician, but as a turnaround CEO with a background in sales leadership and law.

Find Peter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterkujawa

⸻

Harvest is a podcast for growing MSPs and IT service providers who want practical strategies to improve their business without relying solely on net-new customers. Each episode features conversations with industry leaders, founders, and operators sharing real-world insights from inside the managed services industry.

⸻

👍 If you enjoyed this episode, like, subscribe, and share with other MSP leaders.

🌽 More from Harvest: Subscribe for regular episodes on growing revenue from your existing MSP customers.

🎧 Full episode + extras: https://www.salesbuildr.com/podcast

🔗 Follow Harvest on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/harvest-the-msp-sales-show/

Sponsored by Salesbuildr — automated, systemised quoting and proposals for Halo, ConnectWise and Autotask: https://www.salesbuildr.com

In this episode of Harvest, we sit down with Dan Wensley, CEO of the Global Technology Industry Association, to explore how MSPs can grow and stay relevant in an industry defined by constant change.

Dan brings over 30 years of experience working at the forefront of major technology shifts, from the early days of the internet and RMM platforms to cloud computing and today’s AI revolution.

In this conversation, he shares the lessons he’s learned from scaling technology companies and working alongside thousands of managed service providers around the world.

Together, we discuss how MSP leaders can build stronger teams, adapt to rapid technological change, and create real value for their clients beyond simply delivering IT support.

If you run or lead a Managed Service Provider (MSP) and want to stay ahead of the next wave of industry disruption, this episode is packed with insights.

⸻

What you’ll learn in this episode

 • Why change is the only constant in the MSP industry

 • How successful MSPs scale teams and leadership

 • Why good employees rarely fail — systems and leadership do

 • The role of community and peer groups in MSP growth

 • How AI is changing the pace of technology adoption

 • Why MSPs must shift from IT provider to business growth partner

⸻

Dan Wensley is the CEO of the Global Technology Industry Association and a long-time leader in the managed services ecosystem.

Over the past three decades, he has helped build and scale multiple technology companies and played a key role in shaping the global MSP community.

Find Dan on LinkedIn:  / danwensleyceogtia  

And make sure you follow GTIA as well:  / gtiaofficial  

⸻

Harvest is a podcast for growing MSPs and IT service providers who want practical strategies to improve their business without relying solely on net-new customers.

Each episode features conversations with industry leaders, founders, and operators sharing real-world insights from inside the managed services industry.

⸻

👍 If you enjoyed this episode, like, subscribe, and share with other MSP leaders.

🌽 More from Harvest:

Subscribe for regular episodes on growing revenue from your existing MSP customers.

🎧 Full episode + extras:

https://www.salesbuildr.com/podcast

🐦 Follow Harvest on LinkedIn:  / harvest-the-msp-sales-show  

Sponsored by Salesbuildr - automated, systemised quoting and proposals for Halo, Connectwise and Autotask: https://www.salesbuildr.com

Perry Ashby from Urban Network has been running MSPs since 2003, and he's learned the hard way that the best growth doesn't come from chasing new logos—it comes from talking to the clients you already have.

In this episode, Perry breaks down:

• Why account management beats net-new sales every time

• The two types of conversations every MSP should have with clients (and who should have them)

• How to identify white space without drowning in spreadsheets

• Project scoping mistakes that kill profitability (and how to fix them)

• Why "super busy" doesn't mean profitable

• When to fire a client (and why it might be the best thing for your team)

Perry doesn't hold back on what's working, what's not, and the "11 Arif people" ruining our industry with peacocking BS.

Find Perry on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/perryashby/

And check out his company page here: https://www.urbannetwork.co.uk

🌽 More from Harvest:

Subscribe for regular episodes on growing revenue from your existing MSP customers.

🎧 Full episode + extras:

https://www.salesbuildr.com/podcast

🐦 Follow Harvest on LinkedIn:

  / harvest-the-msp-sales-show  

Sponsored by Salesbuildr - automated, systemised quoting and proposals for Halo, Connectwise and Autotask: https://www.salesbuildr.com

In this episode Paul Lloyd from Sellerly challenges the biggest lie MSP owners tell themselves: "I don't want to be pushy."

In this episode, we talk about why the "work on your business, not in it" advice doesn't work for UK MSPs, why constantly planning your exit stops you building anything worth selling, and why lead generation isn't nearly as complicated as the experts want you to believe.

Paul spent 30 years in tech sales and management, working for a founder who built a £2.5 billion business. That founder had helicopters and yachts. What he didn't have was Friday afternoons off.

If you're stuck between £1M and £5M revenue and can't figure out why nothing's moving, this episode explains it.

Key topics:

• Why the sales mindset problem is holding you back
• The relationship paradox in MSP sales
• Why "we're all set" doesn't mean never
• Lead gen tactics that actually work
• The hard truth about growth requiring hard work

Find Paul: LinkedIn (Paul Lloyd)

Most MSP owners get their first sales hire completely wrong. They focus on revenue from day one, measure the wrong things, and wonder why it falls apart.

Alan Lloyd from Accelerate Consulting spent years building sales teams in the MSP space. In this episode, he explains why your instincts about sales hiring are probably backwards - and what actually works.

We cover the real metrics that matter (hint: it's not dials or monthly revenue), why the first 90 days should never be about hitting targets, and how to spot whether someone's coachable before you hire them.

If you're thinking about bringing on your first salesperson, or your current sales team isn't performing, this one's for you.

Key takeaways:

• Why measuring output is almost useless
• The one metric that actually predicts success
• How to onboard without the "here's a laptop, off you pop" approach
• When to know if you've made a hiring mistake

Guest: Alan Lloyd, Accelerate Consulting

Connect with Alan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alanlloydonline/

Timestamps:

00:00 - Intro

01:15 - The "angry man" misconception

02:45 - Why MSPs struggle to hire salespeople

05:20 - Looking for experience vs coachability

09:30 - How to identify coachability in interviews

12:15 - Setting up your first hire for success

15:40 - Week one: orientation and foundations

18:25 - The "so what?" test for value propositions

22:10 - Why you should never measure dials

25:35 - Pipeline over output: what to actually track

29:45 - The sensitivity analysis you must do first

33:20 - When to know you've made a bad hire

36:50 - Industry Manure: what's dead on LinkedIn?

39:15 - Pass the Pitchfork: why MSPs can't find customers

41:30 - Yell from the Barn: Accelerate Consulting

More from Harvest:

Subscribe for regular episodes on growing revenue from your existing MSP customers.

Most MSPs don't know their clients' businesses. Jennifer Bleam reveals why 5 minutes with AI beats years of relationship building - and why you should partner for AI services, not build them.

Jennifer's site: https://mspsalesrevolution.com

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - Introduction

02:30 - The research gap killing credibility

06:00 - AI prompts for industry expertise

11:00 - Partner vs build for AI

16:30 - Sales process that works

21:00 - Never email proposals

27:30 - Budget qualification

32:00 - The easy button lie

Jennifer Bleam - Sales Sherpa, MSP Sales Revolution. Author of "Simplified Cybersecurity Sales For MSPs". Has coached 2,000+ MSPs.

This episode is sponsored by Salesbuildr - helping MSPs automate and systemise the quotation and proposal process. https://www.salesbuildr.com

💬 Do you actually know what your clients' businesses do? Comment below.

Are you burning out from trying to please everyone while your MSP slowly kills your personal life? What if putting yourself first actually made you better at serving clients?

00:00 Introduction and misconceptions about Harold

02:30 The lazy person's guide to MSP efficiency

06:00 Why fancy proposals kill your close rate

11:00 34 years without hiring a single salesperson

16:30 The 10% client rule that prevents business death

22:00 "I don't like this" - the 4 words that scale MSPs

27:30 Why selfishness is the key to MSP success

32:00 Building sustainable business through boundaries

In this episode, Harold Mann reveals how strategic selfishness built his bulletproof MSP over 34 years. His contrarian approach puts operational excellence and personal well-being first - leading to better client outcomes and sustainable growth.

We cover:

• Why being "extremely lazy" drives better business decisions
• The mortality event that taught him the 10% client concentration rule
• How one-page proposals actually improved his close rates
• Why "I don't like this" became his team's most powerful tool
• The restaurant analogy for premium MSP positioning
• Why selfishness prevents burnout and improves service delivery

👤 Guest: Harold Mann, CEO of Mann Consulting, San Francisco-based MSP specializing in Mac environments with global co-managed IT partnerships

👇 Do you struggle with putting boundaries in your MSP business? Share how you balance client demands with self-care in the comments!

Are you struggling to grow your MSP revenue without feeling like you're constantly selling to your existing clients?

00:00 The richest opportunities in your existing clients

05:30 Right-sizing clients from the start

11:00 The power of structured technology reviews

16:30 Avoiding costly accounting mistakes

22:00 Client communication strategies that work

27:30 Building sustainable client relationships

In this episode, Barbara Paluszkiewicz, CEO of CDN Technologies, reveals how to grow revenue from existing clients without aggressive upselling tactics. With 30 years of MSP experience, Barbara shares practical wisdom on packaging services properly from day one.

We cover:

• Why charging for assessments sets the right client expectations

• How to structure your fundamental package to ensure profitability

• The biggest financial mistake MSPs make (and how to avoid it)

• Effective communication strategies that clients appreciate

• How to handle technology reviews that naturally lead to additional revenue

👤 Guest: Barbara Paluszkiewicz, CEO of CDN Technologies

👇 How do you grow revenue from existing clients without feeling salesy? Share your thoughts in the comments!

Are your MSP account managers just maintaining clients instead of growing your most valuable revenue opportunities?

00:00 The overlooked value of account management

05:30 Setting up account managers for success

11:00 First steps for new account managers

16:30 Building strategic customer relationships

22:00 Creating account growth opportunities

27:30 Account management as a growth engine

In this episode, Warwick Brown shares proven account management strategies that help MSPs grow profitable revenue from existing clients. Learn why client retention deserves as much celebration as new sales and how to transform your account management into a true growth engine.

We cover:

• Why account management is the true growth engine for MSPs

• How to properly structure and empower your account management team

• First-day strategies for new account managers to build credibility

• Tactical approaches to segment and prioritize your client base

• How Warwick renewed a $12M account that was ready to leave

👤 Guest: Warwick Brown, Account Management Expert

👇 How are you currently handling account management in your MSP? Share your approach in the comments!

Are you afraid to proactively contact your existing clients because they might complain? You're missing out on your biggest revenue opportunities!

00:00 The confidence gap in client communication

05:30 Designing effective QBRs that clients want

11:00 Tracking client intent and engagement data

16:30 Anti-stack approach to selling solutions

22:00 False confidence from selling to referrals

27:30 Consistent communication drives more revenue

In this episode, Dave Sutton from Wingman Agency reveals why most MSPs fail to extract value from existing customers and how to overcome the fear of client conversations. Dave brings nearly 10 years of MSP sales experience with concrete strategies for generating more revenue from your current client base.

We cover:

• Why confidence is the #1 missing ingredient in client relationships

• How to structure QBRs that clients actually want to attend

• Why spending $15K on new client acquisition is wasteful

• The dangerous false confidence that comes from referral-only sales

• Why the traditional vendor stack model is limiting your growth

👤 Guest: Dave Sutton, Founder of Wingman Agency

👇 What's your biggest challenge with existing client revenue? Share your thoughts in the comments!

Are you offering pathetic $100 referral incentives and wondering why your clients never send you leads?

In this episode, Harrison Baron reveals why most MSP referral programs fail and how to create offers so compelling your clients feel silly saying no. Learn how to leverage your existing client relationships to predictably generate high-quality leads.

00:00 Introduction and misconceptions

05:30 Why most MSP referral programs fail

11:00 Creating irresistible referral offers

16:30 Using LinkedIn for targeted lead generation

22:00 Concrete strategies that convert connections

27:30 Implementation and measuring success

We cover:

• Why $100 referral incentives are insulting to your best clients

• How to research LinkedIn connections for targeted introductions

• The exact framework for making irresistible referral offers

• Why most MSPs are afraid to invest properly in referrals

• How to leverage 7-20 year client relationships for consistent leads

👤 Guest: Harrison Baron, Founder of Growth Generators and MSP Peer Group Leader

👇 What's your most successful referral strategy? Share your wins (or frustrations) in the comments below

Are you spending 60+ hours every week trying to improve your MSP but seeing no real progress? Are you constantly buying new tools that never deliver the promised results?

In this episode, Darren Strong, CEO of Scalable, reveals why most MSPs fail to grow despite working harder than ever. He shares insights on why systems - not shiny tools - are the key to sustainable growth.

We cover:

• Why MSPs need to focus on systems instead of constantly buying new tools

• How to build frameworks specific to your MSP's size and goals

• Why thinking your MSP is unique might be holding you back

• The common pattern of broken promises to family due to business demands

• How peer groups helped Darren realize most MSPs face identical problems

👤 Guest: Darren Strong, CEO of Scalable

👇 What systems have you implemented that actually made a difference in your MSP? Share your experience in the comments!

Are your account managers making pointless check-in calls that waste everyone's time and generate zero revenue?

In this episode, Brian Doyle (from VCIO Toolbox and MSP Business School) discusses how MSPs are wasting their account managers and missing huge revenue opportunities with existing clients. He shares proven frameworks to transform account management from basic relationship maintenance into a powerful revenue generation engine.

We cover:

- Why it's easier to get revenue from existing customers than finding new ones

- The dangerous 'check-in call' habit that wastes customer time and kills opportunities

- Brian's 'Thirds Rule' for structuring effective account management conversations

- How to implement gap analysis to discover hidden revenue potential

- Making every customer touchpoint meaningful and productive

👤 Guest: Brian Doyle, VCIO Toolbox and MSP Business School

Are you an MSP owner trapped in 70-80 hour work weeks with no way out?

In this episode, Tim Thomson (MSP Advisor with 25 years of experience) discusses how MSP owners can buy back their time through effective delegation and prioritization. He shares practical strategies to break through revenue plateaus and focus on business growth.

We cover:

• How to conduct a time-energy audit to identify tasks you shouldn't be doing

• Why MSP owners get stuck at the "pain line" ($750K-$1M revenue)

• The mindset shift from working IN your business to ON your business

• Why "a million dollar company isn't built on $10 tasks"

• Practical delegation strategies to reclaim your time

👤 Guest: Tim Thomson, MSP Advisor with 25 years in the MSP space

👇 Got thoughts or questions about buying back time as an MSP owner? Drop them in the comments!

Are you ignoring your biggest growth opportunity hiding in plain sight?

In this episode, Mike Parfitt (Founder of Team MetaLogic) breaks down how he transformed his business by focusing on harvesting value from existing clients instead of constantly chasing new ones—and how you can do the same.

Mike shares tactical approaches to identify your ideal clients and maximize their lifetime value.

We cover:

• How to define your perfect client (hint: it's not about their size or revenue)

• Why operational dependence on technology is the key indicator for growth potential

• The "cleaning house" strategy that transformed MetaLogic's business model

• How to position your services to create mutual growth with clients

• Practical ways to maximize value from your existing customer base

👤 Guest: Mike Parfitt, Founder of Team MetaLogic

🌐 TeamMetaLogic.com

Is your MSP leaving money on the table?

In this episode, Joe Rojas (StartGrowManage) breaks down how one MSP added $30K in MRR without signing a single new client—and how you can do the same. From strategic business reviews to bold pricing moves and niche-driven growth, this is a tactical, no-fluff conversation built for MSP leaders ready to think and act like CEOs.

We cover:

• How to right-size pricing with minimal client churn
• The game plan for powerful strategic business reviews
• Mapping your product matrix to unlock hidden revenue
• Why niching beats being a generalist, every time
• Smart ways to bring AI into your MSP—without becoming a tech expert

👤 Guest: Joe Rojas, Co-Founder of StartGrowManage

🌐 https://startgrowmanage.com

🔗 https://linkedinjoe.com

You don’t need more leads—you need better habits. In this episode, Graham Stead shares how he helped grow CMI to £18M in revenue by building a repeatable sales engine focused on existing clients.

From white space reviews to stakeholder mapping and sales rhythm, this is a tactical deep-dive for MSPs who want predictable growth without relying on marketing miracles.

🎙️ In this episode:

• What “white space” really means for MSPs

• How to audit your clients for upsell opportunities

• Building sales time discipline

• Mapping stakeholder influence to reduce churn

• Why discounts are often lazy—and what to do instead

Guest: Amy Luby, Chief Channel Evangelist

What if your MSP’s biggest risk isn’t lack of revenue—but what lies underneath it?

In this episode of Harvest, James Steel is joined by channel veteran Amy Luby to explore the hard realities of client churn, misaligned services, and how one MSP lost over $20M in revenue before turning it around. From rebuilding trust with frustrated customers to simplifying over-engineered service offerings, Amy brings no-nonsense advice from the field.

You’ll hear:

• The first signs things are going wrong (before it shows up in your P&L)
• How to realign services that aren’t solving real client pain
• Why MSPs should ditch “best practices” and double down on curiosity
• How culture—not tools—is your biggest differentiator

This one is all about what happens after the spreadsheet says everything’s fine—but your gut knows otherwise.

Links & Resources:

Amy Luby on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amyluby

More episodes at: salesbuildr.com/harvest

Are you still chasing cold leads while leaving existing client revenue on the table?

In this episode of Harvest, James sits down with John Humphrey — former MSP CEO turned AI strategist — to unpack a sharp, practical method for growing revenue from within your current accounts. He calls it Heat Maps & Hunches.

You’ll learn how to map relationships that actually drive sales, spot silent blockers inside your client orgs, and equip your delivery team to surface real opportunities. John also shares how AI tools like Perplexity and Copilot can transform the way you prep for meetings and deepen trust across the board.

If you’re ready to become the advisor your clients actually rely on — this one’s for you.

Guest: John Humphrey

Full episode page: https://www.salesbuildr.com/harvest-msp-sales-show

Brought to you by: Salesbuildr — the quotation and proposal tool for MSPs.

If you enjoyed the episode, consider leaving a review. Thanks for listening.