Episode 68: Overcoming Songwriters Block with the Nashville Legend Jim Lauderdale

37m | Aug 9, 2022

Joseph Franklyn McElroy got a chance to interview our special guest this week, Jim Lauderdale. Jim won two Grammys, released 34 full-length albums, and took home the Americana Music Association’s coveted Wagonmaster Award. But his forthcoming album Game Changer is convincing evidence that the North Carolina native is only continuing to hone his craft.

Check out this episode to hear about how he’s been making music, the strategies and techniques that help him stay inspired and focused on his craft, and what advice he’d have for other musicians in their own creative pursuits.


Also, we’ve got something special for all of you #music lovers, and it’s a bit of a collaboration between Jim Lauderdale and friends. The #Songwriters Camp and Concert on August 12- 13,2022, will feature our own special guest Jim Lauderdale with Charles, Humphrey III, Darren Nicholson, Clay Mills, and Charles Chamberlain, who will be instructing on songwriting techniques and helping out with some live performances. This event is going to be jam-packed full fun, so be sure to check it out!

#smokymountainsnationalpark #songwriter #northcarolina #maggievalley #podcast



00:00: 27--00:00: 47 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Howdy. Welcome to the gateway to the Smokies podcast. This podcast is about America's most visited national park, the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. In the surrounding towns, this area is filled with ancient natural beauty, deep-storied history, and rich mountain cultures that we explore with weekly episodes.

 00:00: 48--00:01: 01 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: I am Joseph Franklin McElroy, a man of the World, but also with deep roots in these mountains. My family has lived in the Great Smokies for over 200 years. My business is in travel, but my heart is in culture.

00:01: 02--00:01: 27 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: First a few sponsor messages and some events coming up. I want you to imagine a place evocative of motor courts of the past, yet modern and vibrant, with a chic Appalachian field. A place for adventure and for relaxation. Imagine a place where you can fish in a mountain heritage, trout stream, grill to catch on fire and eat accompanied by fine wine or craft beers.

00:01: 28--00:01: 39 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Imagine a place with old-time music and world cultural sounds. There is no other place like the Meadowlark Motel in Maggie Valley, North Carolina. Your Smoky Mountain Adventure Starts with Where you Stay.

00:01: 40--00:02: 07 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Another sponsor is That's smokies plural. Adventure, singular. The Smoky Mountains and surrounding area is a vacation destinations for all seasons. Some of the nation's best hiking trails, waterfalls, outdoor adventures, and family entertainment can be found right here. Start your adventure by using to explore all the wonderful features of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

00:02: 08--00:02: 18 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: The trails, the waterfalls, the caves, cove, the elk, and more. Then check out all the awesome family attractions and entertainment you and your family can enjoy.

00:02: 19--00:02: 35 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Find lodging, find places to stay. Find places to eat. Find where you can do outdoor life events like weddings and honeymoons. It's all at, which is the leading information portal for adventure experiences in the Great Smoky Mountains.

00:02: 36--00:02: 54 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: So, events coming up at the Meadowlark, August 12 to 13th we're having a Songwriters Camp it's a songwriter’s camp in concert with Grammy-winning artists Jim Lauderdale and Charles Humphrey III, along with award-winning artists such as Darren Nicholson, Clay Mills, and Charles Chamberlain.

00:02: 54 --00:03: 10 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  It's a two-day event of interactive songwriting instruction for world-class musicians, and a demo tape will be produced for each participant. And there'll be a concert of songs from the Rogue Band on Friday night and a barbecue dinner and also our concert on Saturday night.

00:03: 10 --00:03: 50 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  This is going to be a unique event like no other, and space will be limited to ensure individual tension is given to all participants. The price is $675 per person, including all the activities and demo tapes and concerts, and barbecue dinner. And then there's special pricing for rooms, and there'll be room packages as well. Call 828-926-1717 for details. And there's also a limited amount of concert tickets available for the general public, and those are available on Friday and Saturday nights, and they're $30 each. And again, you can reserve your spot by calling 828-926-1717.

00:03: 50 --00:03: 56 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  Welcome to the Gateway to the Smokies podcast with my guest Jim Lauderdale. Hey, Jim. How are you doing?

00:03: 56 --00:03: 57 Jim Lauderdale:  Great, how are you?

00:03: 57 --00:04: 01 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  I'm doing good. We're huge fans of yours.

00:04: 01 --00:04: 02 Jim Lauderdale: Thank you.

00:04: 02 --00:04: 16 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  And all the artists are coming to that songwriter camp. I'm really thrilled that this came up. Was the songwriter camp your idea, Bob's idea? You guys came up with it together or what happened?

00:04: 16 --00:04: 30 Jim Lauderdale: I think Bob approached Charles Humphrey about it and then he asked me. And so luckily, timing-wise, it worked out

00:04: 30 --00:04: 36 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: cool. Yeah. I see that you do another couple of other camps, like one out west somewhere, don't you?

 00:04: 36 --00:04: 49 Jim Lauderdale: I did. I did Steve Polt's camp out in Joshua Tree in May. And I just did the Swannanoa gathering and November

00:04: 49 --00:05: 05 Jim Lauderdale:  I Believe it is. I'll be at Jorma Calconin's Fur Piece Ranch. Cool. Yeah. But I enjoy it a lot. I really do. Yeah.

00:05: 05 --00:05: 19 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Cool. I have a friend of mine I think is going to make it who's been doing music for a number of years but really wants to learn from some real professionals. I got some people that are fairly excited. It's an exciting thing, I think, for people to get to work with some great artists like yourself.

 00:05: 19 --00:05: 39 Jim Lauderdale: It's exciting for me to see people it means a lot to people that are writing songs, and I think they're just as valid as somebody that's been doing it for a long time.

00:05: 19 --00:05: 39 Jim Lauderdale: And so, it's great to see that enthusiasm and the ideas and to see where these songs can go, too well.

00:05: 39 --00:05: 49 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: it's nice to bring it to Western North Carolina. You grew up with Westville, right?

00:05: 49 --00:06: 19 Jim Lauderdale: I lived around the Piedmont area and then in South Carolina for a few years not too far from Greenville in due west. And I've been coming to Flat Rock every summer of my life since I was born and have continued to come here a lot.

 00:06: 19 --00:06: 36 Jim Lauderdale: And then other times in North Carolina. Winston Salem and Chap Hill for school. So, yeah, North Carolina is my home. Yeah.

00:06: 36 --00:06: 43 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Well, I'm glad that you're bringing the art of songwriting here. So, when did you get involved in writing songs? Did you start pretty young?

00:06: 43 --00:07: 03 Jim Lauderdale: I guess I was going through my last year of high school and the idea came to me when I was visiting Troutman, North Carolina, where I lived my first five years.

00:07: 03 --00:07: 34 Jim Lauderdale: And so, this melody and a title came to me in a few lines here and there. It was kind of an old, tiny, like, string band type thing. I'd been doing bluegrass banjo for a few years, but that type of melody hit me first, and then I had some melodies I gave to one of my classmates when I was a freshman at the North Carolina School of the Arts.

00:07: 34 --00:07: 55 Jim Lauderdale: And he wrote some lyrics. And from there then I started writing on my own and doing a few demos produced by a guitar-playing friend of mine named Zan McCloud, who I knew in Chapel Hill.

00:07: 55 --00:08: 33 Jim Lauderdale: I had a duo when I was in high school with a mentor named Rick Bowley who started a music store called Oxpo Music. And I would travel around with him to festivals and help him sell stuff, and we played as much as we could. And then I went off to college, and these songs were coming to me. So Zan took me to a place kind of out in the country there, outside of Chapel Hill fella named Steve Grandback, who later moved to Charlotte and opened up a studio.

00:08: 34 --00:09: 08 Jim Lauderdale: And I thought, just doing three songs and six songs, I thought, well, hey, a record deal is going to come any day. I'll be touring all over the place. I'll have to quit school, but this is what I want to do. I was naive about that process. Like everybody, it took a while, but that's where my passion for songwriting started, really.

 00:09: 08 --00:09: 21 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: I've always wondered. I've been a visual artist, and I've done a few things as a visual artist. I learned that there are different kinds of visionaries.

00:09:21 --00:09: 42 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: There's, like, people that are haptic and there are people that are not haptic and non- haptic. Non-Haptic are people get the vision of the painting in their head, and then they just go create the vision, whereas a haptic artist gets the idea and sort of the sense of a painting, but then they have to work it with their hands.

00:09:42 --00:09: 50 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Haptic, they got to do it. Is that similar to songwriting? Do some people get, like, just the whole thing in their head and just put it on paper and other people have to work it?

 00:09:50 --00:10: 25 Jim Lauderdale: That's right. It's different, really, for everybody. For me, a melody usually comes first, sometimes along with the title, but sometimes just a melody. I know some people who write down whole songs on paper and don't have a melody, or else then a melody comes to them or kind of simultaneously. So, it happens a lot of different ways.

00:010:25 --00:10: 36 Joseph Franklyn McElroy That's interesting. So, in a songwriter camp, how would you help the different types of creators with the different ways of doing their creating of songs? How do you help them?

00:10:38 --00:12: 33 Jim Lauderdale: I kind of feel like because usually these camps, there's so much to kind of cover in a short amount of time. I like to do things kind of spontaneously. I don't really have much of a format I follow. And it's kind of like that with me. With writing songs, if I'm co-writing or writing alone, it just kind of is spontaneous. And so, I kind of have to evaluate those writers in front of me at that time and ask them what they need, what do they need to learn, or to help them. And it's funny. My friend Steve Polts was saying at the start of this camp we did a few months ago, it's like, I can't teach you how to write songs, but I can help facilitate them, we'll kind of go through certain very briefly personal experiences of like well, this happened to me one time and that's how I got out of this block or something like that to help them. But I really make it about them. Usually, people have things that question of places where they need to work through.

00:12:33 --00:012: 43 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Now, does every songwriter really need to practice the discipline or can they come and go from it? How does the discipline work in the songwriting craft?

00:12:43 --00:014: 03 Jim Lauderdale: I think it happens in all different ways too. Some people are super disciplined and I try to be putting and everything I've got into it, but I don't have necessarily set times. Like I don't have a schedule where I go okay, I'm going to get up at eight, have a cup of coffee, right, for 2 hours. Some playwrights and novelists and people like that. It's like I get up at five, I write for 3 hours, that's it. And some people I've also written really late at night with co-writers. We will have tried to write at nine and then we kind of plugging along and then as I'm about to leave or something, somebody will say something and an idea comes out. And then you stay till two or three in the morning. If you're on a role, it's good if you can go ahead and capture that magic.

00:14:03 --00:014: 15 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Now, when you are just going about your life and living, do thoughts for a song come to you all the time and you write them down and put them into snippets? Do you save those?

00:14:03 --00:015: 25 Jim Lauderdale: My song ideas do come to me quite often in conversation or hearing something or just the thought will come into my head. So, I record them on my phone, on an app, on a voice memo app and refer to them later. I go back to them sometimes if I'm then though just playing also something comes out and then you've got your guitar there. But a lot of times I'll just hum the melody. I'm kind of old school. Instead of doing everything on my phone or computer as far as writing out lyrics, I write them down with a pen on if I have a notebook with me or just a scrap of paper. Sometimes I've lost a movie about that. Was there really somebody lost it.

00:15:25 --00:016: 15 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Some creative piece and they spent the whole movie trying to find it? Yeah, it was a silly movie, I'm sure. But it's true. When you're in the visual arts is the same thing. You wake up in the middle of night and think you have solved the mystery of the perfect painting. You write down the thing and then you lose that piece of paper and you're searching for it forever. the creative process is really interesting. If you do voice memos, how do you remember what to search for to find the thing that you went?

00:15:25 --00:017: 23 Jim Lauderdale: I labeled them. I labeled them like if it's a bluegrass song, I say BG. If it's a country song, I say c. If it's for donna the buffalo, I say donna. Songs from the road band SFRB. So different thing. If it's a soul thing, I'll say royal or soul. I do have a bunch of unfinished things. I've recorded a few albums at royal studios in Memphis, which was a great sole studio. If I have a studio booked in advance and I'm trying to write for that outright, like, for instance, blackbird for blackbird studio for those sessions. So, I'm not very organized, but at least I can reference those. Then when I'm flipping through the phone, trying to find something to have ready,

00:17:25 --00:18: 00 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: I mean the human database is the most complex and sometimes also the most infuriating product. We own mine, trying to remember what it was you had thought of. Yeah.

So, given that you're going to be working with some people in a collaborative manner here at the Meadowlark Motel August 12, 13th, but then you also write by yourself, what do you prefer? Do you prefer to write solo or with a partner or with a group?

00:18:00 --00:18: 40 Jim Lauderdale: When you're writing with somebody else, I feel like you always come up with something that neither one of you could do alone, necessarily. There's some different strength about that collaboration, but I still like to write alone to kind of challenge myself to do it because it's harder for me to write a loan. It's slower and sometimes more tedious, but I enjoyed both.

00:18:40 --00:20: 07 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Cool. You've written with some really great people, and I know that you have a podcast with another legend, Buddy Miller. Have you written with him? Yes. We've got a radio show on Sirius X outlaw country on channel 60 called the buddy and gym show. We have written it's been a few years. The last time we wrote, we did a record together, gosh, I think it was eight years ago, and we wrote for that record, and before that, we'd written some things for his albums. He'd usually save a song or two and say we'd work backwards. Usually somebody gives me lyrics and I put a melody to them, but he gave me melodies and I put lyrics to them, and then he'd be under a deadline, too, so I put deadlines on myself also. But he would be like, hey, I've got to finish this record. How are those lyrics coming along? You have to deliver in those situations,

00:20:07 --00:20: 10 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Especially professional and the legend.

00:20:10 --00:20: 12 Jim Lauderdale: Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:12 --00:20: 15 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: You have a reputation to meet now.

 00:20:15 --00:20: 17 Jim Lauderdale: Yeah, that's right.

00:20:19 --00:20: 25 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Is there any other people that you have co-written with that are sort of favorite co-writers?

00:20:25 --00:21: 32 Jim Lauderdale Yes. The man I've probably written the most songs with is Robert Hunter, who used to write with Jerry Garcia and wrote kind of just so many of the grateful dead songs. And we've probably written about 100 together. And sadly, Robert passed a few years ago, and I've written a lot with John Levanthal, great writer and producer, guitar player, and a lot with OD Blackman and several songs with Harlan Howard, who was one of my songwriting heroes, and also Melbourne Montgomery and Charles Humphrey that will be there at the camp. I really enjoy riding with him a lot.

00:21:32 --00:21: 36 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: He's a good guy. I've had him on the sales.

00:20136 --00:22: 38 Jim Lauderdal: He really is. He's a good he really is. He's really a really great writer. And we have a few things. I did a bluegrass record at Echo Mountain a few years ago here, and my concept of it was to have North Carolina bands and North Carolina artists do tracks with me for this record. And so, Charles and I have a couple of cowrites on that. And then I've got a song coming up on a country record that's coming out in August of Charles. And I wrote that original I was thinking it was going to be more acoustic and bluegrass, and then now it's kind of more of a western not western swing, but slight swing thing. Well, I guess you could call it a western swing. Swing to it, right? Yeah. So that's going to be great to work with him at this camp.

00:22:38 --00:22: 42 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Is the swing a hard thing to get into performing?

00:22:42 --00:22: 52 Jim Lauderdale: No, it's good. Not think it breaks up the other grooves you might be doing. I really like it a lot.

00:22:52 --00:23: 16 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Yeah. The reason I asked is my wife is actually a Brazilian percussionist, a swing in that that you have to have or it's just no good. Right. She's done all right with that. It's an advocation, but she got to be on Saturday Night Live and that sort of thing.

 00:23:17 --00:23: 18 Jim Lauderdale: Oh, that's awesome.

00:23:18 --00:23: 20 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: That's a great hobby.

00:23:20 --00:23: 25 Jim Lauderdale: Yeah, that's terrific.

00:23:26 --00:23: 29 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Which do you prefer? Do you prefer writing or do you prefer performing?

00:23:29 --00:24: 15 Jim Lauderdale: I like them both. They both have their attractions and fulfilling things about them. It's a great feeling to write a song and then it's great in those circumstances when you're on stage and then you get to do those songs and interact with people, interact with the audience. And if you're playing in a band setting, those other musicians. So, I wouldn't be able to choose one from the other.

00:24:16 --00:24: 18 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Have you done, like, over 30 albums? Is that right?

 00:24:19 --00:24: 22 Jim Lauderdale This will be my 35th coming out in August.

00:24:22--00:24: 23 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Wow. Yeah. What's the name of that one coming out in August?

00:24:23 --00:24: 24 Jim Lauderdale Game Changer.

 00:24:24--00:24: 25 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Game Changer. And

00:24: 32 --00:24: 56 Jim Lauderdale: it's a country record. I consciously I kind of go in different cycles with records, whether it's country, bluegrass, kind of singer-songwriter, soul or blues rock, or whatever. And this is a consciously focused country record.

00:24:56 --00:24: 58 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: That's fabulous. Of all your records, which one is your favorite?

00:25:01 --00:25: 14 Jim Lauderdale: I can't decide. I mean, I really don't have a favorite because a lot of times the most current record is the favorite one.

00:25:14 --00:25: 42 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  It said as the tea surpasses. People would ask the question, what's your favorite painting and they say, the last one. But I think there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah. When you hear a song or you see a song that you've written or listen to it, do you think, oh, I could improve it? There's something I should have done to improve it here?

 00:25:42 --00:26: 10 Jim Lauderdale: Not really, no. I'm always if I hear somebody doing one of my songs, I'm just so elated that somebody else is doing, and I've never heard I've been asked before if I've ever been disappointed in a song offer, and I never have. It's always just real rewarding to hear somebody else's take on it.

00:26:10 -00:26:14 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  Cool. Well, people come into the songwriter camp. What kind of things can we expect?

00:26:17--00:26: 55 Jim Lauderdale: I think hopefully they'll walk away from that camp with a different take on their own writing and that they will be able to incorporate some of the tips and methods and things like that and suggestions and that. They'll walk out of there feeling more confident about their writing and their minds will be more open to things and their creativity, hopefully, will expand.

00:26:55 -00:27:00 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: And will you give them insights on how to pursue a songwriting career and that sort of thing?

00:27:00 --00:28: 59 Jim Lauderdale: I think first somebody's got to develop their catalog. They've got to have a body of work to and it doesn't have to be hundreds of songs or anything. You could have ten or 15 songs and go out there and try, but it's a process we won't get into because, see, the business part of things changes a lot all the time. But, basically my thing to people, and to myself, too, is that you have got to constantly challenge yourself. If you feel like, hey, this one song am I, this is it. This is going to change everything. It's going to change my life. This is going to open up the doors. That's terrific that you've got that song, but you've got to keep going and create another one and another one and another one. Not to just set that aside and go, well, Madison, but to build on what you're doing. And I feel like it might be naive or old fashioned or something, but I feel that when the songs are there, then those doors open. But it doesn't matter what kind of contacts you have or this or that. The songs have to be there.

 00:28:59 -00:29:02 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Well, there's less than people write a good song, they can sing a good song, right?

 00:29:02 -- 00:30:22 Jim Lauderdale Well, maybe, possibly, but sometimes it's mentioning that one song that somebody has. Some people have had careers, though, off of one song, but I think it's good to kind of be well rounded and have, let's say if you're outperforming, if you're a performing singer-songwriter, you've got to have a whole set of songs that you really feel are stand up to other people, other writers that you really like, and to your other good ones. And of course, that's a process. It doesn't happen all at once. It's like an art show. You've got to have a room full of art. You might have that one painting in the show. Yeah. And hopefully, those paintings in the room will be just as compelling.

00:30:24 -00:30:31 Joseph Franklyn McElroy Your whole body of work. I know in other writing professions, there's writer's block. There's a writer's block in songwriting as well.

00:30:32 -- 00:31:17 Jim Lauderdale: Oh, yeah, definitely. Yes. If we only had a series, we could do, Right? It would be a marathon. Yeah. I think that anybody that's riding something, will come across that rider block. That's one of the secrets I will talk about during this songwriter’s workshop of how to break free of that rider's block.

00:31:18 -- 00:31:19 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Oh, wow.

00:31:21 -- 00:31:34 Jim Lauderdale I would say right now, but people will have to come to see that one time.

00:31:34 -- 00:31:43 Joseph Franklyn McElroy:  That's the magic sauce, folks. Now you can learn, especially if you're starting out, you probably have riders block a lot.

00:31:43 -- 00:32:45 Jim Lauderdale: Yeah, you do. But it takes practice and getting through growing as a writer, and you'll go through different steps and stages and things and just keep

expanding your abilities as time goes on. The more you do it, that 10,000. What is the expression when you do something for 10,000 hours, then you are good at something like that? Now you won't have to do that long, especially with the techniques people will be learning at this camp. They'll take a shortcut of 10 hours instead of 10,000.

00:32:45 -- 00:33:06 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: There you, That's a big promise, man. I knew you had that big thing in you. Oh, that's great. And then you guys can have an all- star concert on the finale, right?

00:33:06 -- 00:32:08 Jim Lauderdale: Yeah.

00:33:08 -- 00:33:12 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: So, have you prepared to play this?

00:33:012 -- 00:33:58 Jim Lauderdale: Yeah, we'll jam. I'm sure we'll talk about it before we get up there but on stage. But that's the cool thing about people can pick up. They can look at you while you're playing, or you can just say, Kia, this is like a one, four, five progressions. I'll kick it off. Whatever. It's fun to jam like that with people and hear what comes out.

00:33:58 -- 00:34:25 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: So, it's going to be a fabulous time. I've got my whole family booked in at our motel, Meadowlark Motel, where it's going to be. That's great to be here because we're excited just to be around it. It's a two-day thing. It's two concerts. I imagine there'd be some jamming as well. Oh, yeah. Wonderful meals. I'm a cookie guy. Breakfast on Saturday morning.

00:34:25 -- 00:34:28 Jim Lauderdale: Oh, nice. Yeah. Great. I'm a supporter of that. I'm a big breakfast guy.

 00:34:28 -- 00:34:33 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Have your requests? What do you like for breakfast?

00:34:33 -- 00:34:40 Jim Lauderdale: You know what? Whatever you have I'm sure will be delicious.

00:34:43 -- 00:34:50 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Well, I can range from chicken fried steak to tomatoes with a smoked trout dip. Whatever slowed to you folk.

00:34:50-- 00:34:52 Jim Lauderdale: Stop. You making me hungry.

00:34:54 -- 00:34:56 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: So, what's next for you?

00:34:56-- 00:35:23 Jim Lauderdale: I am working on my follow-up to the Game Changer record, and that's coming out, and several bluegrass things right now. And I have a fair amount of gigs coming up starting in September until the rest of the year.

00:35:24 -- 00:35:36 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: Okay. Yeah. Cool. And are there any shoutouts you want to do? Any websites or anything you want to mention for people checking things out?

00:35:36-- 00:36:02 Jim Lauderdale:  I guess my website is and then all the social media things, I've got stuff on those. Yeah. So that's kind of got the current things that will be happening on there listed.

00:36:02 -- 00:36:19 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: I will be sure to follow some of that. That is exciting for us. I want to thank you for being on this podcast and also thank you for doing this campaign.

00:36:20-- 00:36:56 Jim Lauderdale: Guess I'll say one more thing about the camp. When you're a kid and you went camping and how much you enjoyed it and everything, this camp will make those times when you're a kid look like a Greek tragedy. This camp is going to be even though it's short, we don't have time these days to go to a summer camp for two weeks. We cram all the gusto in two days.

00:37:02 -- 00:37:35 Joseph Franklyn McElroy: In a day and two- days, it'll be the center of your life for the rest of your existence. That's right. It'll be the sun about which your life repeats. Yes. Well, that's fabulous. We are about to change people's lives and looking forward to it. Well, thank you. This has been the Gateway to the Smokies podcast. You can find us@ GatewaytotheSmokies and also and there'll be this episode as well as other episodes on that website that you can find. Thank you much. And that's it.

00:37:35-- 00:37:36 Jim Lauderdale: Thanks a lot.


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