Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day. We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder. Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world. To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit ⁠disordershow.com/club Website: https://disordershow.com/

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/7/17/bcee06b6-6984-4025-aef0-6ed7f9f1feec_laura_spinney_main_episode_edit1.mp3

This week, Jason is joined by one of his academic idols, Laura Spinney. Laura is a much-esteemed author of Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World, and her incredible newer book Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global.PROTO tells the story of how modern Indo-European languages came into being North of the Black Sea and then traveled East—the length of the steppe, north of the Caucasus, then into the Silk Roads and the Hindu Kush—and West—from the Hungarian steppe into the forest lands of Western Europe. In this episode, Jason and Laura discuss the Yamnaya nomads who spread these languages throughout the world; the central role of Ukraine in pre-history and its centrality now and in the future as a pivot of human civilization; and as they Order the Disorder: they discuss the need for an institution to preserve global memory, so that we as humans can avoid making the same mistakes of the past.To get the rest of the bonus content associated with this multi-part episode, i.e. a discussion about who are the Celts and Jason’s views on Proto and how ancient linguistic history can shed light on the demographic and climate change problems of today, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a> Producer: George McDonaghSubscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links:Get Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global <a href="https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/proto-how-one-ancient-language-went-global-laura-spinney?variant=56326451724667" rel="nofollow">https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/proto-how-one-ancient-language-went-global-laura-spinney?variant=56326451724667</a> Listen - Laura Spinney: rise of the proto-Indo-Europeans <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laura-spinney-rise-of-the-proto-indo-europeans/id1542136715?i=1000708790296" rel="nofollow">https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laura-spinney-rise-of-the-proto-indo-europeans/id1542136715?i=1000708790296</a> For more on Laura visit <a href="https://www.lauraspinney.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.lauraspinney.com/</a> For more on our partnership with the New Books Network - <a href="https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder" rel="nofollow">https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder</a>  Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Ep 206. The Ancient Linguistic Order with Laura Spinney

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/958fc6de-1235-47ea-a38d-95d9f5969916_FPMN4179751390.mp3

This week Jason is joined by old friend and former Disorder co-host Arthur Snell, former British diplomat, host of Behind the Lines, and author of Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive It.
Jason and Arthur start with the seemingly never-ending Iran war. Has Trump’s threatened “economic D-Day” achieved anything? Has it really even been implemented? Jason argues that Iran could become America’s Suez moment: not another Vietnam, but an debacle exposing the limits of American power and its inability to Order the world without its allies.
They then turn to the U.S. midterms, whether the Democrats can retake Congress, and their continuing failure to articulate a coherent national message. And behind both American and British politics lurks another constraint: the bond market. With rising borrowing costs limiting what governments can actually do, could markets and independent institutions provide some of the feedback loops that politics increasingly lacks?
Next up is Andy Burnham’s back-to-school moment. Can he rebuild Britain’s relationship with Europe, stand up to Trump and make better use of Britain’s considerable geopolitical leverage? Jason proposes an “elbows up rule”: medium powers confronting Trump need to articulate clear red lines and stick to them rather than succumbing to appeasement.
Finally, Arthur draws on his book Elemental to explain how the devastating Nepal floods reveal a much bigger climate and geopolitical problem. Billions depend on water originating in the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau, potentially intensifying tensions between China, India and Pakistan. Like Libya’s Derna disaster, it illustrates an Enduring Disorder: foreseeable risks that fragmented institutions repeatedly fail to prepare for.
To Order the Disorder, Arthur calls for rebuilding British soft power through refunding the BBC World Service, British Council and universities, while Jason proposes a clear Burnham Doctrine on Britain’s place in the world. And despite the climate crisis, Arthur offers some grounds for optimism: much of the technology needed for the energy transition already exists — the challenge is turning it into policies governments can actually deliver and then maintaining the will to implement them.
For Mega Orderers Club members, Jason and Arthur continue with a bonus discussion on the Liberal Democrats and their place in Britain’s rapidly changing political landscape. Join the club at disordershow.com/club to get that immediately.
 
SHOWNOTE LINKS:
Join the Mega Orderers Club and get the Arthur Snell intro to who are the Lib Dems, what are they doing, and what do they believe in: <a href="https://www.disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">https://www.disordershow.com/club</a>
Arthur Snell’s Elemental <a href="https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/arthur-snell/elemental/9781529097016" rel="nofollow">https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/arthur-snell/elemental/9781529097016</a>
Arthur Snell’s Behind the Lines <a href="https://shows.acast.com/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell" rel="nofollow">https://shows.acast.com/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell</a>
Arthur’s Not All Doom Substack <a href="https://arthursnell.substack.com/" rel="nofollow">https://arthursnell.substack.com/</a>
Join the Mega Orderers Club <a href="https://www.disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">https://www.disordershow.com/club</a>
Disorder on YouTube <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow</a>
Ordering the Disorder on Substack <a href="https://natoandtheged.substack.com/" rel="nofollow">https://natoandtheged.substack.com/</a>
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

This week Jason is joined by old friend and former Disorder co-host Arthur Snell, former British diplomat, host of Behind the Lines, and author of Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive It.

Jason and Arthur start with the seemingly never-ending Iran war. Has Trump’s threatened “economic D-Day” achieved anything? Has it really even been implemented? Jason argues that Iran could become America’s Suez moment: not another Vietnam, but an debacle exposing the limits of American power and its inability to Order the world without its allies.

They then turn to the U.S. midterms, whether the Democrats can retake Congress, and their continuing failure to articulate a coherent national message. And behind both American and British politics lurks another constraint: the bond market. With rising borrowing costs limiting what governments can actually do, could markets and independent institutions provide some of the feedback loops that politics increasingly lacks?

Next up is Andy Burnham’s back-to-school moment. Can he rebuild Britain’s relationship with Europe, stand up to Trump and make better use of Britain’s considerable geopolitical leverage? Jason proposes an “elbows up rule”: medium powers confronting Trump need to articulate clear red lines and stick to them rather than succumbing to appeasement.

Finally, Arthur draws on his book Elemental to explain how the devastating Nepal floods reveal a much bigger climate and geopolitical problem. Billions depend on water originating in the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau, potentially intensifying tensions between China, India and Pakistan. Like Libya’s Derna disaster, it illustrates an Enduring Disorder: foreseeable risks that fragmented institutions repeatedly fail to prepare for.

To Order the Disorder, Arthur calls for rebuilding British soft power through refunding the BBC World Service, British Council and universities, while Jason proposes a clear Burnham Doctrine on Britain’s place in the world. And despite the climate crisis, Arthur offers some grounds for optimism: much of the technology needed for the energy transition already exists — the challenge is turning it into policies governments can actually deliver and then maintaining the will to implement them.

For Mega Orderers Club members, Jason and Arthur continue with a bonus discussion on the Liberal Democrats and their place in Britain’s rapidly changing political landscape. Join the club at disordershow.com/club to get that immediately.



SHOWNOTE LINKS:

Join the Mega Orderers Club and get the Arthur Snell intro to who are the Lib Dems, what are they doing, and what do they believe in:https://www.disordershow.com/club

Arthur Snell’s Elementalhttps://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/arthur-snell/elemental/9781529097016

Arthur Snell’s Behind the Lineshttps://shows.acast.com/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell

Arthur’s Not All Doom Substackhttps://arthursnell.substack.com/

Join the Mega Orderers Clubhttps://www.disordershow.com/club

Disorder on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Ordering the Disorder on Substackhttps://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 205. Arthur Snell Returns: Iran, Burnham, Bond Markets and Climate Disorder

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/632fc6d3-dea1-4fdf-b309-3212d4721060_FPMN1024386506.mp3

In this episode, we return to Simon Sebag Montefiore’s tour de force, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag divide the continuation of their discussion into two parts: 1) An analysis of what makes the Middle East a ‘Cauldron’ and what has the region’s role in 20th and 21st century global history been as an exporter of disorder or importer and then processor of the global disorder happening around it; 2) Our attempt to order the disorder with a lightening round where I ask Sebag impossibly big questions: first about big themes on civilization, religion, and history and then about how to fix the Middle East. 
 
The crux of the episode is: What makes the Middle East unique as a region? Is it its geography, relation to religion, legacy of empires, connection to oil resources, or being the fulcrum where Asia, Europe, and Africa meet? Sebag thinks it is all of the above, Jason thinks it is its culture and lack of institutional legacy and public spiritedness.. he discussed this in the bonus bit for Mega Orderers.. They also delve into the role of Pakistan, America, Russia, and Britain in the Middle Eastern region and how part of the region’s uniqueness is how it sucks in other powers for ideological, religious, and oil reasons. 
 
 
To get the bonus content associated with this two-part episode, i.e. Jason views on the role of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a> 
 
When you log in there after joining you will get Jason’s micro episode for members of the Mega-Orderers Club only on A CULTURAL CRITIQUE OF WHERE THE DISORDER of the Middle east COMES FROM—as he debate’s the establishment on the region’s uniquely dysfunctional culture and institutional legacies of greed of clan and faction and whether the Middle East is in fact unique or just like everywhere else when it comes to its a profound absence of public spiritedness. 
 
 
Producer: George McDonagh 
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 
 
Show Notes Links: 
To get the book <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/</a>  
 
As for what is happening with Iran and the economic D-Day: <a href="https://thehill.com/policy/international/6045556-iran-warns-middle-east-us-economic-war/" rel="nofollow">https://thehill.com/policy/international/6045556-iran-warns-middle-east-us-economic-war/</a>  
 
How the US and Middle East allies flipped the oil script on Iran: 
<a href="https://edition.cnn.com/2026/08/22/business/oil-strait-of-hormuz-iran" rel="nofollow">https://edition.cnn.com/2026/08/22/business/oil-strait-of-hormuz-iran</a>  
 
To get the bonus content associated with part 2, i.e. the rule of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a> 
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

In this episode, we return to Simon Sebag Montefiore’s tour de force, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag divide the continuation of their discussion into two parts: 1) An analysis of what makes the Middle East a ‘Cauldron’ and what has the region’s role in 20th and 21st century global history been as an exporter of disorder or importer and then processor of the global disorder happening around it; 2) Our attempt to order the disorder with a lightening round where I ask Sebag impossibly big questions: first about big themes on civilization, religion, and history and then about how to fix the Middle East. 

 

The crux of the episode is: What makes the Middle East unique as a region? Is it its geography, relation to religion, legacy of empires, connection to oil resources, or being the fulcrum where Asia, Europe, and Africa meet? Sebag thinks it is all of the above, Jason thinks it is its culture and lack of institutional legacy and public spiritedness.. he discussed this in the bonus bit for Mega Orderers.. They also delve into the role of Pakistan, America, Russia, and Britain in the Middle Eastern region and how part of the region’s uniqueness is how it sucks in other powers for ideological, religious, and oil reasons. 

 

 

To get the bonus content associated with this two-part episode, i.e. Jason views on the role of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club 

 

When you log in there after joining you will get Jason’s micro episode for members of the Mega-Orderers Club only on A CULTURAL CRITIQUE OF WHERE THE DISORDER of the Middle east COMES FROM—as he debate’s the establishment on the region’s uniquely dysfunctional culture and institutional legacies of greed of clan and faction and whether the Middle East is in fact unique or just like everywhere else when it comes to its a profound absence of public spiritedness. 

 

 

Producer: George McDonagh 

 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

 

Show Notes Links: 

To get the book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/  

 

As for what is happening with Iran and the economic D-Day: https://thehill.com/policy/international/6045556-iran-warns-middle-east-us-economic-war/  

 

How the US and Middle East allies flipped the oil script on Iran: 

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/08/22/business/oil-strait-of-hormuz-iran  

 

To get the bonus content associated with part 2, i.e. the rule of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 204. Part 2: The Making of the Modern Middle East with Simon Sebag Montefiore

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/1f20f668-fbc9-4c05-af24-aa16e94b9654_FPMN5122622892.mp3

This week, Jason is joined by esteemed British historian and author, Simon Sebag Montefiore, to discuss his latest book, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag’s discussion ranges over centuries of history and ping pongs back and forth on myriad topics. It tries to make the peripheral central by putting the non-Arab, non-Sunni groups at the centre of understanding the Modern Middle East.
 
They unpack how the Middle East became the Disorderly region we know today and where to frame current conflicts historically to understand certain deeper dynamics, especially as pertains to minorities and their ambitions for statehood and peoplehood. They focus a lot on WWI and the dynamics that emerged from it and shaped the history of the Kurds, Armenians, Turks, and fleeing Ionian Greeks. These were the dynamics of population transfer and ethnonationalism that destroyed the old Middle East of the Millet System. They try to avoid the overdone Israel/Palestine dynamics which occasionally shed more heat than light. With this framing in place, they look at what tragedies took us to the current pointless and self-defeating Iran war, and where we might go from here.
 
To get part 2 with bonus content, and hear it before anyone else, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
To get Simon’s book <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/</a> 
 
For more Disorder about the history of the Middle East, try:
 
What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg  <a href="https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ug89R0zHLumkldJX5Cmo2" rel="nofollow">https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ug89R0zHLumkldJX5Cmo2</a>
 
And Sir Vincent Fean The Case for Palestinian Statehood: <a href="https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep74-part2-the-case-for-palestinian-statehood" rel="nofollow">https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep74-part2-the-case-for-palestinian-statehood</a> 
 
And the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep36-part-i-former-armenian-president-sarkissian-on-armenian-genocide-remembrance-day
 
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network, for more visit <a href="https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder" rel="nofollow">https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder</a> 
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

This week, Jason is joined by esteemed British historian and author, Simon  Sebag Montefiore, to discuss his latest book, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag’s discussion ranges over centuries of history and ping pongs back and forth on myriad topics. It tries to make the peripheral central by putting the non-Arab, non-Sunni groups at the centre of understanding the Modern Middle East.



They unpack how the Middle East became the Disorderly region we know today and where to frame current conflicts historically to understand certain deeper dynamics, especially as pertains to minorities and their ambitions for statehood and peoplehood. They focus a lot on WWI and the dynamics that emerged from it and shaped the history of the Kurds, Armenians, Turks, and fleeing Ionian Greeks. These were the dynamics of population transfer and ethnonationalism that destroyed the old Middle East of the Millet System. They try to avoid the overdone Israel/Palestine dynamics which occasionally shed more heat than light. With this framing in place, they look at what tragedies took us to the current pointless and self-defeating Iran war, and where we might go from here.



To get part 2 with bonus content, and hear it before anyone else, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

To get Simon’s book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/ 



For more Disorder about the history of the Middle East, try:



What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg  https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ug89R0zHLumkldJX5Cmo2



And Sir Vincent Fean The Case for Palestinian Statehood: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep74-part2-the-case-for-palestinian-statehood 



And the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep36-part-i-former-armenian-president-sarkissian-on-armenian-genocide-remembrance-day



This episode is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network, for more visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 203. The Making of the Modern Middle East--Part 1 with Simon  Sebag Montefiore

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/7b09af56-59a9-4f5d-b534-e5a042208021_FPMN1172943804.mp3

Welcome to ‘Out of Order’ with Mark Lobel. A new series, in partnership with Disorder.
 
Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope in our mad mad mad mad world when so much feels out of order.
 
In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels.
 
The duo discuss Charles upbringing - and how being sent to a boarding school at a young age shaped his writing. They also chat divorce-- and how two divorces, that of Charles parents and later himself, still shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out the crimes and immorality of people like Putin and Trump in different ways that politicians and political commentators.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a> - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. There is only one week left to redeem this offer.
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
Get in touch with Mark here <a href="https://www.mark-lobel.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.mark-lobel.com/</a> 
 
For more on Out of Order visit <a href="https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel" rel="nofollow">https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel</a> 
 
ICARUS 17: A nailbiting new Lachlan Kite espionage thriller, from Sunday Times bestselling author Charles Cumming: Book 4 (BOX 88) <a href="https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU" rel="nofollow">https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU</a>
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Welcome to ‘Out of Order’ with Mark Lobel. A new series, in partnership with Disorder.



Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope in our mad mad mad mad world when so much feels out of order.



In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels.



The duo discuss Charles upbringing - and how being sent to a boarding school at a young age shaped his writing. They also chat divorce-- and how two divorces, that of Charles parents and later himself, still shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out the crimes and immorality of people like Putin and Trump in different ways that politicians and political commentators.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. There is only one week left to redeem this offer.



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

Get in touch with Mark here https://www.mark-lobel.com/ 



For more on Out of Order visit https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel 



ICARUS 17: A nailbiting new Lachlan Kite espionage thriller, from Sunday Times bestselling author Charles Cumming: Book 4 (BOX 88)https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 202. The spy who duped me - Charles Cumming reveals all

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/de4f091c-88af-45bd-994f-006a4b7b7cb1_FPMN2387718958.mp3

To celebrate Jason&#39;s 2nd place finish at the World Backgammon Championships, we&#39;re rerunning a classic episode of Disorder; centred around the game itself and the lessons it provides for the Mega Ordering community.
 If you didn’t hear this when it came out in July, 2025, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.
 
We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions?
 
In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder. 
 
They discuss Marc&#39;s journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region.
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - <a href="https://natoandtheged.substack.com/" rel="nofollow">https://natoandtheged.substack.com/</a>
 
Disorder on YouTube - <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow</a> 
 
Show Notes Links:
The World Backgammon Championship Final featuring Jason Pack against Petko Kostadinov : <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?pp=ygUjYmFja2dhbW1vbiBjaGFtcGlvbnNoaXAgZmluYWwgMjAyNiA%3D&v=4UruOwdoyu8" rel="nofollow">The World Backgammon Championship Final 2026</a>
 
For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - <a href="https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/</a> 
 
To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk</a> 
 
For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI</a> 
 
For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880" rel="nofollow">https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880</a> 
 
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

To celebrate Jason&#39;s 2nd place finish at the World Backgammon Championships, we&#39;re rerunning a classic episode of Disorder; centred around the game itself and the lessons it provides for the Mega Ordering community.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in July, 2025, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.



We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions?



In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder. 



They discuss Marc&#39;s journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region.



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 



Show Notes Links:

The World Backgammon Championship Final featuring Jason Pack against Petko Kostadinov : The World Backgammon Championship Final 2026



For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/ 



To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk 



For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI 



For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880 

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Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 201. Rerun: Why Backgammon Can Help us Order the Disorder

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/0063a224-972c-4334-8ebc-bacb501d782f_FPMN6080062812.mp3

Jason and Jane are back from their holidays – Jason celebrating making the Finals of the World Championships of Backgammon and winning the Silver Medal, and Jane reflecting on her time in Morocco. But soon as they discuss the state of the world, Disorder enters as they disagree agreeably about devolution in the UK. Plus: what can or is being done with the climate crisis, and what does Abdul El-Sayed’s win in America’s Democratic primary mean for the direction the party is taking and its hope for the midterms?
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a> - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only.
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
 
For Jason’s reflections on Backgammon and Mega-Ordering and humility on losing: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE</a> 
 
For Valeria’s art: <a href="https://backgammonbeauty.com/" rel="nofollow">https://backgammonbeauty.com/</a>
You can watch the final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UruOwdoyu8&amp;t=8414s
Or the more (pleasing from my perspective) semi final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptjF5waoZ8&amp;t=12807s
 
Andy Burnham on How to Fail - <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w</a> 
 
 
For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - <a href="https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/</a>
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Jason and Jane are back from their holidays – Jason celebrating making the Finals of the World Championships of Backgammon and winning the Silver Medal, and Jane reflecting on her time in Morocco. But soon as they discuss the state of the world, Disorder enters as they disagree agreeably about devolution in the UK. Plus: what can or is being done with the climate crisis, and what does Abdul El-Sayed’s win in America’s Democratic primary mean for the direction the party is taking and its hope for the midterms?



For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only.



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:



For Jason’s reflections on Backgammon and Mega-Ordering and humility on losing: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE 



For Valeria’s art: https://backgammonbeauty.com/

You can watch the final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UruOwdoyu8&amp;t=8414s

Or the more (pleasing from my perspective) semi final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptjF5waoZ8&amp;t=12807s



Andy Burnham on How to Fail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w 





For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 200. Is more devolution in Britain the answer or a spreader of Disorder?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/1a1b94b5-4e37-4137-88cf-6ac5f6011556_FPMN3966655029.mp3

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period where international institutions tend not to work and where coordinating the allies to stay on the same page about things like defence, climate change, and taxation is a tremendous challenge. The rare exception is NATO, it mostly works even if Trump rails against it.  This episode explains why.
 
If you didn’t hear this when it came out in October, 2023, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.
 
Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems.
 
In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
For more on Kori Schake, visit https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/ 
 
For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea
 
Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands at - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/442543/homelands-by-ash-timothy-garton/9781847926616 
 
For more on Charles Kupchan, visit https://www.cfr.org/expert/charles-kupchan
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period where international institutions tend not to work and where coordinating the allies to stay on the same page about things like defence, climate change, and taxation is a tremendous challenge. The rare exception is NATO, it mostly works even if Trump rails against it.  This episode explains why.



If you didn’t hear this when it came out in October, 2023, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.



Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems.



In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

For more on Kori Schake, visit https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/ 



For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea



Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands at - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/442543/homelands-by-ash-timothy-garton/9781847926616 



For more on Charles Kupchan, visit https://www.cfr.org/expert/charles-kupchan

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 199. Rerun: NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/ae0ec1bf-a115-4180-80a2-00d0b0f86951_FPMN7264220378.mp3

This week on Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Dr Florence Gaub, futurist, military strategist, and Director of the Research Division at the NATO Defense College. Florence has spent her career thinking professionally about something most of us do rather badly: systematically plan for the future. 
 
Her book, The Future: A User’s Guide, was a best seller in German. It is now available in English from Hurst. It argues that the future is not simply something that happens to us. We imagine it, fear it, misunderstand it and — crucially — in thinking about it in certain flawed ways, help create it. 
 
Jason and Florence discuss why humans are simultaneously obsessed with the future and terrible at thinking about it: from catastrophising and the Cassandra Complex to optimism bias, surprise and science fiction. They explore why governments are so often blindsided by seemingly predictable crises — and whether strategic foresight can help Orderers stop responding to yesterday’s problems. 
 
In Ordering the Disorder, they discuss how imagining positive futures might itself be a tool for Ordering the Disorder. 
 
Producer: Sam Cluley 
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 
 
Show Notes Links: 
Buy Florence Gaub’s The Future: A User’s Guide:  <a href="https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/" rel="nofollow">https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/</a> 
 
Read about Florence and her work at the NATO Defense College:  <a href="https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/" rel="nofollow">https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/</a> 
 
Listen to Florence on NATO 2099 and strategic foresight:  <a href="https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub" rel="nofollow">https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub</a> 
 
Read Florence on futurism, geopolitics and the risks of stumbling into wider war:  <a href="https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html" rel="nofollow">https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html</a> 
 
 
For our collaboration with the Epstein Book Club who are running our Andrew Lownie Episode see here: <a href="https://www.epsteinfilesbookclub.com/the-british-component-disorder-podcast-cross-post/" rel="nofollow">https://www.epsteinfilesbookclub.com/the-british-component-disorder-podcast-cross-post/</a>  
 
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

This week on Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Dr Florence Gaub, futurist, military strategist, and Director of the Research Division at the NATO Defense College. Florence has spent her career thinking professionally about something most of us do rather badly: systematically plan for the future. 

 

Her book, The Future: A User’s Guide, was a best seller in German. It is now available in English from Hurst. It argues that the future is not simply something that happens to us. We imagine it, fear it, misunderstand it and — crucially — in thinking about it in certain flawed ways, help create it. 

 

Jason and Florence discuss why humans are simultaneously obsessed with the future and terrible at thinking about it: from catastrophising and the Cassandra Complex to optimism bias, surprise and science fiction. They explore why governments are so often blindsided by seemingly predictable crises — and whether strategic foresight can help Orderers stop responding to yesterday’s problems. 

 

In Ordering the Disorder, they discuss how imagining positive futures might itself be a tool for Ordering the Disorder. 

 

Producer: Sam Cluley 

 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

 

Show Notes Links: 

Buy Florence Gaub’s The Future: A User’s Guide: https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/ 

 

Read about Florence and her work at the NATO Defense College: https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/ 

 

Listen to Florence on NATO 2099 and strategic foresight: https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub 

 

Read Florence on futurism, geopolitics and the risks of stumbling into wider war: https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html 

 

 

For our collaboration with the Epstein Book Club who are running our Andrew Lownie Episode see here: https://www.epsteinfilesbookclub.com/the-british-component-disorder-podcast-cross-post/  

 

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Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 198.  Tomorrow's Disorder — Florence Gaub on Our Flawed Relationship with the Future

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/ba5ba410-e0c8-4cc5-8766-da798470c356_FPMN2785689683.mp3

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period in which Disordering Neo-populists have come to power and have made the world more disorderly so they can stay in power. If you didn’t hear this when it came out on Sept 19, 2023--when we launched--I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.
 
Over the past few decades leaders like Trump, Orban, and Bolsonaro have ridden a wave of popular outrage to rise to power.  But what came first: the Neo-Populists or the era of Global Enduring Disorder?
 
In this episode we chart the rise of the Neo-Populists, their impact on global order, and what we can do to stop them. Sean Wilentz explains the difference between real populism (like Bernie Sanders) and ‘faux’ or neo-populists (like Trump), while Anne Applebaum takes us through the missed opportunities and co-ordination failures of the post-Cold War years.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
For more from Anne Applebaum, visit https://linktr.ee/anneapplebaum   
 
For more on Sean Wilentz, visit https://history.princeton.edu/people/sean-wilentz 
 
For more on Jonathan Winer, visit https://www.mei.edu/profile/jonathan-m-winer 
 
For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period in which Disordering Neo-populists have come to power and have made the world more disorderly so they can stay in power. If you didn’t hear this when it came out on Sept 19, 2023--when we launched--I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.



Over the past few decades leaders like Trump, Orban, and Bolsonaro have ridden a wave of popular outrage to rise to power.  But what came first: the Neo-Populists or the era of Global Enduring Disorder?



In this episode we chart the rise of the Neo-Populists, their impact on global order, and what we can do to stop them. Sean Wilentz explains the difference between real populism (like Bernie Sanders) and ‘faux’ or neo-populists (like Trump), while Anne Applebaum takes us through the missed opportunities and co-ordination failures of the post-Cold War years.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

For more from Anne Applebaum, visit https://linktr.ee/anneapplebaum   



For more on Sean Wilentz, visit https://history.princeton.edu/people/sean-wilentz 



For more on Jonathan Winer, visit https://www.mei.edu/profile/jonathan-m-winer 



For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 197. Re-Run: The Rise of the Neo-Populists

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/ef02145d-d97d-4415-9049-60e81b82660a_FPMN6918545896.mp3

This week, Jason is joined by a real life Mega-Orderer--Jamison Firestone, acclaimed lawyer, author, and activist. He witnessed firsthand Russia&#39;s descent from the promise of the Yeltsin years into the corruption and authoritarianism of Vladimir Putin&#39;s regime.Firestone was also the employer and close colleague of Sergei Magnitsky, whose death after exposing a massive tax fraud inspired the Magnitsky sanctions now used by democracies around the world to target corrupt officials and human rights abusers.Jamison joins Disorder to discuss his powerful new memoir, Rule of Lies, and to unpick piece by piece from his insider tales how Russia&#39;s descent into kleptocracy happened.Jason and Jamison also reflect on their mutual friend Sir Bill Browder, the legacy of the martyred Alexei Navalny, and why Navalny&#39;s extraordinary moral courage bears comparison with figures such as Socrates and even Jesus. 
As they Order the Disorder, they turn from diagnosis to solutions. Should the West finally confiscate the roughly $300 billion of frozen Russian state assets? Why has Belgium remained one of the principal obstacles? What can be done to make it give up the Goose that lays the Golden Egg? And could coordinated international action overcome the legal and political barriers? If democracies are serious about confronting authoritarianism, this conversation argues that defending the rule of law requires more than sanctions—it requires the courage to act.
 
Producer: Sam Cluley 
 
Subscribe to our Substack https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Disorder on YouTube -https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
Show Notes Links:Jamison Firestone:https://jamisonfirestone.com/
Buy Rule of Lies:https://www.harpercollins.com/products/rule-of-lies-jamison-r-firestone
Justice for Sergei Magnitsky:https://russian-untouchables.com/eng/Punish Putin campaign:https://punishputin.com/
Listen to our first Disorder episode with Sir Bill Browder:https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece
The Magnitsky Act (U.S. Congress):https://www.congress.gov/bill/112th-congress/house-bill/4405
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

This week, Jason is joined by a real life Mega-Orderer--Jamison Firestone, acclaimed lawyer, author, and activist. He witnessed firsthand Russia&#39;s descent from the promise of the Yeltsin years into the corruption and authoritarianism of Vladimir Putin&#39;s regime.Firestone was also the employer and close colleague of Sergei Magnitsky, whose death after exposing a massive tax fraud inspired the Magnitsky sanctions now used by democracies around the world to target corrupt officials and human rights abusers.Jamison joins Disorder to discuss his powerful new memoir, Rule of Lies, and to unpick piece by piece from his insider tales how Russia&#39;s descent into kleptocracy happened.Jason and Jamison also reflect on their mutual friend Sir Bill Browder, the legacy of the martyred Alexei Navalny, and why Navalny&#39;s extraordinary moral courage bears comparison with figures such as Socrates and even Jesus. 

As they Order the Disorder, they turn from diagnosis to solutions. Should the West finally confiscate the roughly $300 billion of frozen Russian state assets? Why has Belgium remained one of the principal obstacles? What can be done to make it give up the Goose that lays the Golden Egg? And could coordinated international action overcome the legal and political barriers? If democracies are serious about confronting authoritarianism, this conversation argues that defending the rule of law requires more than sanctions—it requires the courage to act.



Producer: Sam Cluley 



Subscribe to our Substack https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube -https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:Jamison Firestone:https://jamisonfirestone.com/

Buy Rule of Lies:https://www.harpercollins.com/products/rule-of-lies-jamison-r-firestone

Justice for Sergei Magnitsky:https://russian-untouchables.com/eng/Punish Putin campaign:https://punishputin.com/

Listen to our first Disorder episode with Sir Bill Browder:https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece

The Magnitsky Act (U.S. Congress):https://www.congress.gov/bill/112th-congress/house-bill/4405

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 196. Rule of Lies—the origin story of Putin’s Russia with Jamison Firestone

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/2075250b-8362-4b16-be6e-f5aac99ccbc0_FPMN7738738225.mp3

In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason updates on the for-ever war in Iran and the Straight of Hormuz and how the disorder we are experiencing over there is conceptually connected to the bigger concepts of the Disorder pod: the Global Enduring Disorder and the rise of the Neopopulists. He does this via a conversation on the Disinformation Detox with Nolan Higdon, which we air with our own intro. 
 
Producer: Sam Cluely 
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 
 
Show Notes Links: 
 
The U.S. and Iran standoff over the Strait of Hormuz intensifies <a href="https://www.npr.org/2026/07/15/nx-s1-5894582/us-iran-updates" rel="nofollow">https://www.npr.org/2026/07/15/nx-s1-5894582/us-iran-updates</a>  
 
Disorder is through to the next judging round for the News, Politics &amp; Current Affairs category of the British Podcast Awards. <a href="https://haymarket-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/2KSlX2UsDeEWEf8u0F0lOtpYCrZz7BN9swIYsdcDhOhi7uVk3nwET9aXqqk2jPUVwxwNkJoY4BpT_ul4xfjhjrbQviI_N-6pnfh4QcTFEAwXCs5Boe87BCkDAM31wWvuP8e6kE7vtoRHxVrkwFxDbiA4vwWt2Qn0BjV3czJPifFTagIqojZ9w_a8CRlwLKXpDWTbgHbyBUWAEztp5XuYT" rel="nofollow">You can see the full longlist here</a>: <a href="https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/longlist-2026" rel="nofollow">https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/longlist-2026</a>  
 
 
Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here <a href="https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting" rel="nofollow">https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting</a>  
 
Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0</a>  
 
 
Subscribe to the Disinfo Detox: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@DisinfoDetox" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/@DisinfoDetox</a> 
 
Subscribe to Gaslight Gazette: ⁠<a href="https://www.nolanhigdon.substack.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.nolanhigdon.substack.com</a>⁠  
 
Learn more at: ⁠<a href="https://www.nolanhigdon.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.NolanHigdon.com</a> 
 
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In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason updates on the for-ever war in Iran and the Straight of Hormuz and how the disorder we are experiencing over there is conceptually connected to the bigger concepts of the Disorder pod: the Global Enduring Disorder and the rise of the Neopopulists. He does this via a conversation on the Disinformation Detox with Nolan Higdon, which we air with our own intro. 

 

Producer: Sam Cluely 

 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

 

Show Notes Links: 

 

The U.S. and Iran standoff over the Strait of Hormuz intensifies https://www.npr.org/2026/07/15/nx-s1-5894582/us-iran-updates  

 

Disorder is through to the next judging round for the News, Politics &amp; Current Affairs category of the British Podcast Awards. You can see the full longlist here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/longlist-2026  

 

 

Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting  

 

Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0  

 

 

Subscribe to the Disinfo Detox: https://www.youtube.com/@DisinfoDetox 

 

Subscribe to Gaslight Gazette: ⁠https://www.nolanhigdon.substack.com⁠  

 

Learn more at: ⁠https://www.NolanHigdon.com 

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Ep 195. Trump, Iran, and the Epstein Files

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/78589d45-ceb9-49af-b368-32ad01065cea_FPMN9771437843.mp3

Fresh from her trip to Ankara for the NATO Summit, Jane rejoins Jason to discuss what she learned about NATO, the mood among the allies, and why the Europeans are moving further away from Trump. Plus: Farage’s resignation and by-election, how that is connected to the Marine Le Pen court ruling in France, and then to Order the Disorder: Jason argues that we should look no further than the America’s Founding Fathers and the principles they articulated and lived by.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
 
Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here <a href="https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting" rel="nofollow">https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting</a> 
 
Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0</a> 
 
Listen to our episode with Frank Vogl - <a href="https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZDU5ZDRjNTItMDg5ZS0xMWYwLWI5ZGItN2YwZDA5MmE4ZWVh" rel="nofollow">https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZDU5ZDRjNTItMDg5ZS0xMWYwLWI5ZGItN2YwZDA5MmE4ZWVh</a> 
 
Listen to Amb. Minuto-Rizzo about the NATO summit: <a href="https://open.spotify.com/episode/1bHVQ2n7sLUUQnxtLPdjvv" rel="nofollow">https://open.spotify.com/episode/1bHVQ2n7sLUUQnxtLPdjvv</a>   
 
On Farage and British dislike of political sleaze - <a href="https://x.com/yougov/status/2075501188036899216?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g" rel="nofollow">https://x.com/yougov/status/2075501188036899216?s=46&amp;t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g</a> 
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Fresh from her trip to Ankara for the NATO Summit, Jane rejoins Jason to discuss what she learned about NATO, the mood among the allies, and why the Europeans are moving further away from Trump. Plus: Farage’s resignation and by-election, how that is connected to the Marine Le Pen court ruling in France, and then to Order the Disorder: Jason argues that we should look no further than the America’s Founding Fathers and the principles they articulated and lived by.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:



Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting 



Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0 



Listen to our episode with Frank Vogl - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZDU5ZDRjNTItMDg5ZS0xMWYwLWI5ZGItN2YwZDA5MmE4ZWVh 



Listen to Amb. Minuto-Rizzo about the NATO summit: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1bHVQ2n7sLUUQnxtLPdjvv   



On Farage and British dislike of political sleaze - https://x.com/yougov/status/2075501188036899216?s=46&amp;t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g 

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Ep 194. Farage vs Count Binface, reflections on the NATO Summit and America

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/837a6b4a-402f-477c-9ff6-d4458f6d5ff5_FPMN5348362038.mp3

We start the episode with Jason’s reflections on the July 4th holiday and America’s Big Birthday. For more on this check out the first YouTube below in the Links. He believes that our Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers and men of tremendous principle who trusted experts. Therefore, to celebrate the holiday, he wanted to have someone on the pod who has lived his life courageously, respectfully, and with principle. Therefore, this week, Jason is joined by Dr Hal Bradley, reformed drug smuggler, former informant for the FBI, and author of more than 10 books. Dr Hal and Jason discuss his life story, his take on the Epstein files, and how understanding and co-operation can help us Order the Disorder. 
Hal showcases his revolutionary and principled life and his conversion story. He also explains how despite Trump’s big bluster about tackling drug smuggling across the border, little has been done. So what does a former drug smuggler think should be done to truly Order this Disorder? Listen to find out.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
 
Watch Jason explain how The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers:
 <a href="https://youtu.be/_vFfnhFNsJ0" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/_vFfnhFNsJ0</a> 
 
Watch/listen to Jason with Dr Alon Ben Meir talking about the situation in Iran and the status of the MoU and regional ceasefires as at the end of June: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLbO4E8pRmwIedcPIBowZQkbjzxJ0AXKjI&v=jVL5UNy6Ruc" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL5UNy6Ruc&amp;list=PLbO4E8pRmwIedcPIBowZQkbjzxJ0AXKjI</a> 
 
Watch Jason on Dr Hal’s show - <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtUvVDRQ4zs" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtUvVDRQ4zs</a> 
 
Get Dr Hal’s book, A Fox In the Lion&#39;s Den: A Fictionalized and Fact-Based Autobiography of the Life of Dr. Hal A. Bradley, here: <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fox-Lions-Den-Fictionalized-Autobiography/dp/B09SBY5GCY" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fox-Lions-Den-Fictionalized-Autobiography/dp/B09SBY5GCY</a> 
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We start the episode with Jason’s reflections on the July 4th holiday and America’s Big Birthday. For more on this check out the first YouTube below in the Links. He believes that our Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers and men of tremendous principle who trusted experts. Therefore, to celebrate the holiday, he wanted to have someone on the pod who has lived his life courageously, respectfully, and with principle. Therefore, this week, Jason is joined by Dr Hal Bradley, reformed drug smuggler, former informant for the FBI, and author of more than 10 books. Dr Hal and Jason discuss his life story, his take on the Epstein files, and how understanding and co-operation can help us Order the Disorder. 

Hal showcases his revolutionary and principled life and his conversion story. He also explains how despite Trump’s big bluster about tackling drug smuggling across the border, little has been done. So what does a former drug smuggler think should be done to truly Order this Disorder? Listen to find out.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:



Watch Jason explain how The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers:

 https://youtu.be/_vFfnhFNsJ0 



Watch/listen to Jason with Dr Alon Ben Meir talking about the situation in Iran and the status of the MoU and regional ceasefires as at the end of June: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL5UNy6Ruc&amp;list=PLbO4E8pRmwIedcPIBowZQkbjzxJ0AXKjI 



Watch Jason on Dr Hal’s show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtUvVDRQ4zs 



Get Dr Hal’s book, A Fox In the Lion&#39;s Den: A Fictionalized and Fact-Based Autobiography of the Life of Dr. Hal A. Bradley, here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fox-Lions-Den-Fictionalized-Autobiography/dp/B09SBY5GCY 

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Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 193.  America’s 250th and a Reformed drug smuggler on how to tackle the narcotics industry and Epstein

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/83e6c1e1-524f-4774-b012-0c3259f323c8_FPMN6894629758.mp3

In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Peter Salisbury, Adjunct Assistant Professor at Columbia University, and Senior Fellow at the Century Foundation, who has spent years tracking the illicit supply chains fuelling the war in Yemen. His upcoming report, launching at King&#39;s College London, is essential reading for anyone trying to understand how the Houthis went from a little-known insurgent group to a force capable of disrupting global shipping.
 
Jane and Peter discuss how the Houthis learned to manufacture their own drones and missiles rather than simply receiving them from Iran, the outsized role China now plays in supplying the components that power this new generation of weapons, the fragile Saudi-Houthi truce since 2022, and what the changing economics of drone warfare mean for the future of arms control.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: Sam Cluley
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
The report that Pete is talking about can be found here: <a href="https://tcf.org/content/report/beyond-the-axis/" rel="nofollow">https://tcf.org/content/report/beyond-the-axis/</a> 
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In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Peter Salisbury, Adjunct Assistant Professor at Columbia University, and Senior Fellow at the Century Foundation, who has spent years tracking the illicit supply chains fuelling the war in Yemen. His upcoming report, launching at King&#39;s College London, is essential reading for anyone trying to understand how the Houthis went from a little-known insurgent group to a force capable of disrupting global shipping.



Jane and Peter discuss how the Houthis learned to manufacture their own drones and missiles rather than simply receiving them from Iran, the outsized role China now plays in supplying the components that power this new generation of weapons, the fragile Saudi-Houthi truce since 2022, and what the changing economics of drone warfare mean for the future of arms control.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: Sam Cluley



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

The report that Pete is talking about can be found here: https://tcf.org/content/report/beyond-the-axis/ 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 192. Who is funding the Houthis?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/5b15783a-06c2-422b-a906-209868704479_FPMN1081071899.mp3

This week it’s time for listener questions! And pls note that members of the Mega Orderer’s club get their questions answered first. Jane and Jason discuss: why Russia is pretending to be happy with Starmer resigning, the potential role of Turkey, Saudi, Pakistan and Egypt in Ordering the Strait of Hormuz, Elon Musk becoming the world’s first trillionaire, whether Iran and America will ever agree on anything, the US’ behaviour throughout the World Cup, and why western governments seemingly can’t get anything done and what happened to bold elected centrist leaders.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and in future, full episodes of our listener questions and the unlimited right to get your questions answered, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
Read: Big Tech is stoking unrest in the UK. Why? <a href="https://www.ft.com/content/0f3e33d2-0b9e-481d-a911-245d8cc01a9c?syn-25a6b1a6=1" rel="nofollow">https://www.ft.com/content/0f3e33d2-0b9e-481d-a911-245d8cc01a9c?syn-25a6b1a6=1</a> 
 
Listen to Keen On: The Trouble with Trillionaires: Mordecai Kurz on Capitalism, Democracy, and the Second Gilded Age: <a href="https://www.keenon.tv/videos/the-trouble-with-trillionaires-mordecai-kurz-on-capitalism-democracy-and-the-second-gilded-age/" rel="nofollow">https://www.keenon.tv/videos/the-trouble-with-trillionaires-mordecai-kurz-on-capitalism-democracy-and-the-second-gilded-age/</a> 
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This week it’s time for listener questions! And pls note that members of the Mega Orderer’s club get their questions answered first. Jane and Jason discuss: why Russia is pretending to be happy with Starmer resigning, the potential role of Turkey, Saudi, Pakistan and Egypt in Ordering the Strait of Hormuz, Elon Musk becoming the world’s first trillionaire, whether Iran and America will ever agree on anything, the US’ behaviour throughout the World Cup, and why western governments seemingly can’t get anything done and what happened to bold elected centrist leaders.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and in future, full episodes of our listener questions and the unlimited right to get your questions answered, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

Read: Big Tech is stoking unrest in the UK. Why? https://www.ft.com/content/0f3e33d2-0b9e-481d-a911-245d8cc01a9c?syn-25a6b1a6=1 



Listen to Keen On: The Trouble with Trillionaires: Mordecai Kurz on Capitalism, Democracy, and the Second Gilded Age: https://www.keenon.tv/videos/the-trouble-with-trillionaires-mordecai-kurz-on-capitalism-democracy-and-the-second-gilded-age/ 

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Ep 191. Why Can’t Western governments get anything done? What do we do about trillionaires? Is the US missing out on the World Cup dividend?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/05d41abd-afb7-46d3-b846-e1b1b403a8ee_FPMN6290773954.mp3

Don’t you just love when decency interjects and sometimes people do the right thing, the orderly thing, the sane thing? Well voters of Makerfield have chosen order and unity over disorder and division, and now Starmer has done the right thing. The Orderly Transition to Burnham is on its way and it is an example of a prime opportunity for the institutions of Britain to showcase themselves to the domestic and international publics as orderly and functional.  So Jason starts by introducing this existing moment and then pivoting to regularly scheduled programming about international ordering that still works: NATO.
 
With the NATO Summit in Ankara fast approaching, will the fractures between Europe and America be on full display? Or will one of the world’s most successful alliances in human history come together and make a show of unity?
 
To preview the summit and survey global affairs from peacemaking to defence spending, Jason is joined by Ambassador Alessandro Minuto-Rizzo, the President of the NATO Defense College Foundation and former Deputy Secretary General of NATO (2001-8). The duo discuss what will come out of the Ankara communique, the future of Italian politics, and as they Order the Disorder - the role of NATO in the years to come. Ambassador Minuto-Rizzo puts forth his solutions to the Ukraine war, various ideas why giving up territory might not be that important these days, and his overall philosophy of optimism and keeping calm and carrying on. It might not be how everyone would look at global affairs, but it is very interesting that a man with five decades of high level diplomatic experience has this approach.  Hope you enjoy.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
 
For more on the work of the Foundation: <a href="https://www.natofoundation.org/" rel="nofollow">https://www.natofoundation.org/</a>
 
For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s background and that of the foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/about-us/
 
For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s comments on global security alliances: <a href="https://www.natofoundation.org/regions-at-the-centre-cooperative-security-cooperation-versus-fragmentation/" rel="nofollow">https://www.natofoundation.org/regions-at-the-centre-cooperative-security-cooperation-versus-fragmentation/</a>
 
For a great pod on what Burnham needs to do for an Orderly transition: <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fourcast/id1542796249?i=1000773763527" rel="nofollow">https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fourcast/id1542796249?i=1000773763527</a> 
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Don’t you just love when decency interjects and sometimes people do the right thing, the orderly thing, the sane thing? Well voters of Makerfield have chosen order and unity over disorder and division, and now Starmer has done the right thing. The Orderly Transition to Burnham is on its way and it is an example of a prime opportunity for the institutions of Britain to showcase themselves to the domestic and international publics as orderly and functional.  So Jason starts by introducing this existing moment and then pivoting to regularly scheduled programming about international ordering that still works: NATO.



With the NATO Summit in Ankara fast approaching, will the fractures between Europe and America be on full display? Or will one of the world’s most successful alliances in human history come together and make a show of unity?



To preview the summit and survey global affairs from peacemaking to defence spending, Jason is joined by Ambassador Alessandro Minuto-Rizzo, the President of the NATO Defense College Foundation and former Deputy Secretary General of NATO (2001-8). The duo discuss what will come out of the Ankara communique, the future of Italian politics, and as they Order the Disorder - the role of NATO in the years to come. Ambassador Minuto-Rizzo puts forth his solutions to the Ukraine war, various ideas why giving up territory might not be that important these days, and his overall philosophy of optimism and keeping calm and carrying on. It might not be how everyone would look at global affairs, but it is very interesting that a man with five decades of high level diplomatic experience has this approach.  Hope you enjoy.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:



For more on the work of the Foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/



For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s background and that of the foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/about-us/



For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s comments on global security alliances: https://www.natofoundation.org/regions-at-the-centre-cooperative-security-cooperation-versus-fragmentation/



For a great pod on what Burnham needs to do for an Orderly transition: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fourcast/id1542796249?i=1000773763527 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 190. An Orderly British transition is underway and the upcoming NATO summit in Ankara

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/5e1a24a1-3d4d-4daf-9d8f-d2f3b56415e0_FPMN3504075775.mp3

In this episode of Disorder Latest, Jason is joined by Thomas de Waal, journalist, author, and Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe who has spent decades studying the politics, conflicts, and societies of the Caucasus and wider Eurasian region. His book ‘The Caucasus: An Introduction’, is a must read for anyone looking to understand the region—its ethnic diversity, its ties to Russia, its cults of personality, and its geopolitical importance.

Jason and Thomas discuss the  June 7 Armenian election—won by pro-EU incumbent Nikol Pashinyan--, the Trump negotiated peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and whether Georgia is moving permanently away from Europe and the West.
 
For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">⁠disordershow.com/club⁠</a>
 
Producer: Sam Cluely
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
Get Thomas’ book at <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caucasus-Introduction-Thomas-Waal/dp/0195399773" rel="nofollow">⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caucasus-Introduction-Thomas-Waal/dp/0195399773⁠</a> 
 
Listen to our previous episodes with Armen Sarkissian, Armenia’s former president <a href="https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/OWJlOTI5YTYtMDBjZC0xMWVmLTg0N2MtMmIzNDcwZTAyMDQx" rel="nofollow">⁠https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/OWJlOTI5YTYtMDBjZC0xMWVmLTg0N2MtMmIzNDcwZTAyMDQx⁠</a> 
 
And for more on the Armenian election: <a href="https://apnews.com/article/armenia-election-result-pashinyan-7168ab86aa0d9f2c967171c91c9611c9" rel="nofollow">⁠https://apnews.com/article/armenia-election-result-pashinyan-7168ab86aa0d9f2c967171c91c9611c9⁠</a> 
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In this episode of Disorder Latest, Jason is joined by Thomas de Waal, journalist, author, and Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe who has spent decades studying the politics, conflicts, and societies of the Caucasus and wider Eurasian region. His book ‘The Caucasus: An Introduction’, is a must read for anyone looking to understand the region—its ethnic diversity, its ties to Russia, its cults of personality, and its geopolitical importance.


Jason and Thomas discuss the  June 7 Armenian election—won by pro-EU incumbent Nikol Pashinyan--, the Trump negotiated peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and whether Georgia is moving permanently away from Europe and the West.



For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at ⁠disordershow.com/club⁠



Producer: Sam Cluely



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

Get Thomas’ book at ⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caucasus-Introduction-Thomas-Waal/dp/0195399773⁠ 



Listen to our previous episodes with Armen Sarkissian, Armenia’s former president ⁠https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/OWJlOTI5YTYtMDBjZC0xMWVmLTg0N2MtMmIzNDcwZTAyMDQx⁠ 



And for more on the Armenian election: ⁠https://apnews.com/article/armenia-election-result-pashinyan-7168ab86aa0d9f2c967171c91c9611c9⁠ 

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Ep 189. The Armenian election and the Disorderly Caucasus

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/061a1d91-0f6e-4a64-abe7-814620056473_FPMN5703597482.mp3

For a special live edition of Disorder, we come to you live from the United Nations Association – UK, where Jason, Jane and Mark were  joined by a special guest-- Alexis Akwagyiram, Managing Editor for Africa at Semafor.
 
Mark and Jason discussed the latest disorder in the UK and if Andy Burnham might be able to bring Order to Britain? But will he even be able to order its bond markets? Jane and Jason look at the reigniting of fighting between Israel and Iran, and what happens next, and Alexis and Jane discussed the fallout from the disorderly war on inflation and food prices in Africa and provide the latest on Nigeria and the role of African countries in restoring some global order.
 
For a full, unedited edition of the episode with full q and a, join our Mega Orderers Club at <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
For full list of Makerfield Election candidates visit <a href="https://makerfieldcandidates.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">https://makerfieldcandidates.co.uk/</a> 
 
Watch Wes Streeting on News Agents <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VUDvtZWrtg" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VUDvtZWrtg</a> 
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

For a special live edition of Disorder, we come to you live from the United Nations Association – UK, where Jason, Jane and Mark were  joined by a special guest-- Alexis Akwagyiram, Managing Editor for Africa at Semafor.


Mark and Jason discussed the latest disorder in the UK and if Andy Burnham might be able to bring Order to Britain? But will he even be able to order its bond markets? Jane and Jason look at the reigniting of fighting between Israel and Iran, and what happens next, and Alexis and Jane discussed the fallout from the disorderly war on inflation and food prices in Africa and provide the latest on Nigeria and the role of African countries in restoring some global order.



For a full, unedited edition of the episode with full q and a, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

For full list of Makerfield Election candidates visit https://makerfieldcandidates.co.uk/ 



Watch Wes Streeting on News Agents https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VUDvtZWrtg 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 188. Disorder LIVE @ UNA-UK: The Disunited Kingdom, the disordered dynamics of U.S.-Iran talks, and how Hormuz affects Nigerian politics

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/9/4/19/87f7d07a-6baf-4518-acc3-5f8fdfdf0fa0_FPMN4520471807.mp3

Over the weekend Iran launched waves of missiles at Israel, while Israel retaliated against military targets and a petrochemical complex in Iran, as an uneasy two-month truce appeared to break down.
Trump had earlier appeared keen to avoid an escalation, telling Bibi not to respond to the first barrage of Iranian missiles. Under the surface, Israel wants to complete the job in Lebanon, but Trump wants all the wars over so he can cover up his failure. We start the ep by Jason explaining these late-breaking developments and then introducing the electoral fight between neo-populism and progressivism in one of Latin America’s most geopolitically important countries.
 
As we pivot to the feature topic, we ask what is going on in Colombia&#39;s presidential election and will it jeopardise the country&#39;s peace agreement which former Disorder guest Jonathan Powell helped negotiate many moons ago? Might we see multiple Latin American countries moving to the neo-populism right helped by Trump - including the return of the Bolsonaro family in Brazil? What are the interests that the Trump administration is pursuing in Latin America? Is it mostly just about critical minerals or is it more of a shared worldview? And how can people in the continent pursue democracy and rights when the US and China are competing to get hold of their critical minerals? 
 
This week Jane meets distinguished human rights lawyer Viviana Krsticevic, executive director of the Center for Justice and International Law, founder of GQual and member of the UN’s independent fact-finding mission on human rights in Iran. They discuss how Vivi&#39;s childhood in Argentina under the military junta left her with a determination to fight for democracy, gender equality and human rights after seeing the costs of authoritarianism firsthand, and they discuss strategies for advancing freedom and justice despite the current age of political disorder and democratic backsliding. In the Ordering the Disorder segment they discuss, Latin America&#39;s role in global politics and how the key aspects of multilateralism are highlighted by the current search for the next UN Secretary General - likely to come from Latin America.
 
To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit <a href="http://disordershow.com/club" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/club</a>
 
To tell us more about Disorder, visit <a href="http://disordershow.com/survey" rel="nofollow">disordershow.com/survey</a> 
 
Producer: George McDonagh
 
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
 
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
 
Show Notes Links:
 
For background on the electoral situation in Colombia pls consult:
<a href="https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/reaction-colombia-heads-toward-polarizing-runoff/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" rel="nofollow">https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/reaction-colombia-heads-toward-polarizing-runoff/</a>
 
And <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/30/colombia-presidential-election-vote-resurgence-political-violence" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/30/colombia-presidential-election-vote-resurgence-political-violence</a> 
 
 
Check out Vivi&#39;s interview with IranWire on human rights abuses in Iran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFM9Z5Zyhxc
 
For more on Colombia, read this Q&amp;A from the International Crisis Group: https://www.crisisgroup.org/qna/latin-america-caribbean/colombia-united-states/right-and-left-vie-victory-colombia-under-us-shadow
 
And for more of Jane&#39;s recent takes, check out her recent interview with Lewis Goodall on LBC on how Trump is redefining &#34;ceasefire&#34; - and not in a good way - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjB2q7qYQQ
 Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Over the weekend Iran launched waves of missiles at Israel, while Israel retaliated against military targets and a petrochemical complex in Iran, as an uneasy two-month truce appeared to break down.

Trump had earlier appeared keen to avoid an escalation, telling Bibi not to respond to the first barrage of Iranian missiles. Under the surface, Israel wants to complete the job in Lebanon, but Trump wants all the wars over so he can cover up his failure. We start the ep by Jason explaining these late-breaking developments and then introducing the electoral fight between neo-populism and progressivism in one of Latin America’s most geopolitically important countries.



As we pivot to the feature topic, we ask what is going on in Colombia&#39;s presidential election and will it jeopardise the country&#39;s peace agreement which former Disorder guest Jonathan Powell helped negotiate many moons ago? Might we see multiple Latin American countries moving to the neo-populism right helped by Trump - including the return of the Bolsonaro family in Brazil? What are the interests that the Trump administration is pursuing in Latin America? Is it mostly just about critical minerals or is it more of a shared worldview? And how can people in the continent pursue democracy and rights when the US and China are competing to get hold of their critical minerals? 



This week Jane meets distinguished human rights lawyer Viviana Krsticevic, executive director of the Center for Justice and International Law, founder of GQual and member of the UN’s independent fact-finding mission on human rights in Iran. They discuss how Vivi&#39;s childhood in Argentina under the military junta left her with a determination to fight for democracy, gender equality and human rights after seeing the costs of authoritarianism firsthand, and they discuss strategies for advancing freedom and justice despite the current age of political disorder and democratic backsliding. In the Ordering the Disorder segment they discuss, Latin America&#39;s role in global politics and how the key aspects of multilateralism are highlighted by the current search for the next UN Secretary General - likely to come from Latin America.



To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club


To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey 



Producer: George McDonagh



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:



For background on the electoral situation in Colombia pls consult:

https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/reaction-colombia-heads-toward-polarizing-runoff/



And https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/30/colombia-presidential-election-vote-resurgence-political-violence 



 

Check out Vivi&#39;s interview with IranWire on human rights abuses in Iran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFM9Z5Zyhxc



For more on Colombia, read this Q&amp;A from the International Crisis Group: https://www.crisisgroup.org/qna/latin-america-caribbean/colombia-united-states/right-and-left-vie-victory-colombia-under-us-shadow



And for more of Jane&#39;s recent takes, check out her recent interview with Lewis Goodall on LBC on how Trump is redefining &#34;ceasefire&#34; - and not in a good way - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjB2q7qYQQ

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ep 187. Iran War restarted? And Is Latin America moving to the right?

Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day.&nbsp; 



We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos.&nbsp;But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder.



Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit ⁠disordershow.com/club



Website:&nbsp;https://disordershow.com/