EP 69: Post Betrayal Transformation with Dr. Debi Silber

Today I will be interviewing Dr. Debi Silber, founder of PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation).

We will talk about the pain of being betrayed and will help us understand and learn how to come out of it as a better person Creating a New Tomorrow for ourselves.

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Ari Gronich

0:05

Welcome back to another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I am your host Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Dr. Debbie Silber. She is the founder of the post betrayal transformation Institute and is holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert and the author of number one best-selling book, “The unshakable woman four steps to rebuilding your body”. Dr. Debi, let me just ask you to talk to the audience. Tell them a little bit about your background and why post betrayal? That seems to be an odd thing to niche in. So..

Debi Silber

0:42

Yeah, I don't. I don't think anybody says, Oh, I think I want to study betrayal. No, it's actually my 30th year in business. And as life would morph and change, so would so with the business. And I was in health and mindset and personal development, and then trauma. And I had my first betrayal from my family, and I thought I did the work to heal. And a few months when a few months, few years later, actually it was my husband, and anybody who's been through it. You're blindsided. You're shocked. You're devastated. You know, life as you've known it is no longer. So got him out of the house. And I thought about I said, Okay, well what similar to these two experiences. And I realized I never really took my own needs seriously, it was about everybody else, boundaries were getting crossed. I was like, something's got to change. And that's me. So four kids, six dogs, and a thriving business. I was 50. I'm like, that's it. Going back for a PhD. I didn't even know where that idea came from. I didn't know how I was going to pay for it, how I was going to do it. But it was in transpersonal, psychology, the psychology of transformation, human potential. And while I was there, I did a study, I studied betrayal, what holds us back what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally. When the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my business, my family, my life.

Ari Gronich

2:07

Very cool. So betrayal. Let me ask you a question. All of what you kind of said was betrayal from others? And then you talk about working on you. Right? So the biggest question is the betrayal that we give to ourselves? So can you talk a little bit about that?

Debi Silber

2:35

Sure. Self-betrayal is huge. And there's such a link between self-betrayal and betrayal. You know, self-betrayal is when you know, something isn't in your best interest and you do it anyway. You know, something doesn't serve and you do it anyway, you know, you shouldn't do something, feel something, keep going back for something and you keep doing it. So we're betraying ourselves, you know, it's not in our best interest yet. We keep doing it. So that's self-betrayal.

Ari Gronich

3:02

Okay, so how does that extend into others betraying us? Because what I've found, at least in my experience is, the harder I treat myself, the harder I get treated by others, right, so it directly correlates to, I'm expecting, at this point people to betray me. And so I'm going to invite that in so to speak, versus No, when I have to have a barrier between myself in that or boundary.

Debi Silber

3:33

Yeah, uh, you know, if we write the script for how people treat us, but there were so many things in what you said, like what one thing is, if you expect it, for sure, that's what you know, that's what you'll have. And that's why we see so like, I can spot an unhealed betrayal from a mile away. And one way is when there's a repeat betrayal, because here's this opportunity for us to learn something really profound, not that we're causing the betrayal, but there's a real opportunity here and until and unless we do we will keep getting opportunities in the form of people to teach us this, you know, maybe the bound you know, the rule is that where the lesson is, I need better boundaries in place. I am lovable, worthy, deserving, whatever it is, and you know, it's time to get that lesson so it doesn't have to keep repeating itself.

Ari Gronich

4:22

Just so in the context of how we create a new tomorrow and activate our vision for a better world. You know, what do you say is like the number one, number two, number three things for people to do, so that they can understand this and begin creating a new tomorrow today for themselves?

Debi Silber

4:45

Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing is, like I live real simply have a very simple rule. If it's going to hurt someone, don't do it. Mostly shocked and amazed that other people just don't follow those same rules. So it's really simple. It's like if you want to make a Better Tomorrow, do right by people, you know, lead with kindness, live and love, like, don't just don't hurt people period. But that's not you know, people are acting from their current level of consciousness from where they are. That's the, that's the choice they think is the best, the best move. So, you know, so what do we do, of course, the first thing is prevent something from happening in, in the first place, that's best-case scenario. the second best is to clean it up, clean it up for the betrayed person, there's tremendous opportunity for growth. But for the betrayer, there are two. That is what could be the biggest wakeup call of their life. You know, with some people, it's just on to the next there's a void, there's a hole, there's a gap, and they just don't want to look, don't want to see. So they just keep looking for something on the outside to fill that inside need. You're really not working with much here. So when that's the case, you know, you heal yourself and, and rebuild like, in my scenario. I learned rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. And that's what I did with my family. Or if the situation lends itself and you're willing, and you want to, you can rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I do with my husband. So not long ago, we married each other again. And there's the opportunity, but I never in a bazillion years would have done anything like that if I wasn't totally different, and for sure if he wasn't either.

Ari Gronich

6:33

Interesting. So here's where I guess I'm struggling with, with some of this is there's a lot of there's a lot of self-accountability, right. But there's also this accountability to and for others. And so when you say something like, just don't hurt people, right? I think to myself, well, I could be just doing me being a good person, the way I'm a good person, and somebody may get hurt somehow seigneur in some way. And so how does not hurt somebody and take care of your business internally and your internal pain so that you're not basically being a pain thrower, throwing your butt off onto people. So I'm trying to, I want to get the balance here for the audience of this.

Debi Silber

7:38

It's a great question. intentionality is really where it is, you know that that's what I'm talking about. When you intentionally are hurting someone, you can of course, listen, if you accidentally bump into someone, you weren't trying to hurt them. It's just it was an accident and things happen. Betrayal, the reason why betrayal is such a unique type of trauma is because of how intentional it is, when someone's breaking the spoken or unspoken rules of that relationship. And every relationship has them. Right? It's a breaking of those rules. One person was abiding by the rules, and the other person without their awareness or consent, broke the rules. That's where it's an issue. If both people in relationship, whether it's friends, family member, partner, whatever. If it's an understood thing, hey, there are no rules here. Okay. And if that's your rule, that's okay. But when there's an understanding, spoken or unspoken, you know, and when one person chooses to break that, and breach that trust, that's what I'm talking about. 

Ari Gronich

8:47

Gotcha. Okay. So then let's talk about businesses, betraying, you know, people, right, so let's talk about that a little bit. Because as I sit and look at politics, and look at businesses and look at all the things going on religion, there's been a lot of betrayal of the trust that people have been placing in them. And so that's where my question to you would be. Let's talk about the larger betrayals beyond individual to individual that, you know, community, to individual country to individual religion, authority figure, whatever it is.

Debi Silber

9:31

Yeah, you broke up for a big piece of that. So I'm going to try to imagine what you were saying here. It's so widespread, it really is. I mean, even so, you know, I remember in my research, reading about consumer betrayal. I mean, we can think about it you can, and the study even found there is something called the love versus hate principle, something like that, where we would rather knowingly do something, we know is bad for buy something we know is bad for us, then be duped. For example, you know cigarettes, we know it's bad for us, right? But if someone were to purchase it, or they would rather do that, then buy a product that says, let's say it's good for us and it's not. Right. So it and then because quickly that love for that company turns to hate, we are furious. It's that feeling of being duped and yeah, so much. You know, we're feeling it in so many areas of life right now. Just even in this post COVID world we're living in. And, you know, where some people are just feeling the we could feel betrayed by our own bodies, we could feel betrayed by life by government, by God, I mean, people can universe source, whatever you say. So it's really, you know, even a breaking of those expectations, right. But the way it works with betrayal is the more we trust, and the more we depend on someone that deeper that betrayal. So a child, let's say, who's completely dependent on their parent and parent does something awful, it's gonna have a different impact than your best friend share your secret.

Ari Gronich

11:03

So then, what is the mechanism, right? I talked about this a lot on the show the mechanism that causes people to act against their own self-interest, because I look at what's going on, just in general, the news, for instance, right? I think it's probably a high percentage of the population that feels betrayed by the news that feels like everything is being lied about, like we go down the aisle in the grocery store, we see all natural, healthy, and then you look at the ingredients, and there's almost nothing natural or healthy about it. Right? So how does somebody number one, emotionally deal with the fact that they are constantly being lied to betrayed and treated in a way that's, you know, against their own self-interest? So have the emotional side of that, but then how do we get people to act based on that so that we can stop those trends?

Debi Silber

12:07

Yeah. You know, it's a great question. Because if anything makes you angry, it's that you're being lied to. And, you know, and that's where trust gets shattered. Because then we look at it. Like with the closer the more obvious betrayals, we say, I can't trust my betrayal. I don't even trust myself, how did I not see how did I not know? So how do I then trust this person, that person, so trust is completely and totally shattered. And that's why it's so traumatic. We, you know, we have to be discerning. So what we don't want to do is just be so unwilling to trust because if there's no trust, there's no relationship. There's no, there's no intimacy, there's no closest you're living half a life, right? It's like you're getting burned on the stove. And you're like, that's it. I'm never cooking again. Right? Yeah, it's not fair to you. So we need to have some level of understanding that people are acting from their current level of consciousness, this is the best they can do for right now. Now, how do you change it? yet? Like a role model? You do? You, you do you the best way you can. And if people ask me all the time, you when it comes to, let's say, kids, you know, they're watching everything you do way more than what you say, it's what you do. So just do the right thing as best you can, from where you are right now.

Ari Gronich

13:32

Okay, so that is a partial answer. So that's the emotional side, write active site, to activate yourself to stop that behavior from not just affecting you, but when we see it, I consider that to be the bully, right? So the behavior is, it's the bullying behavior. So I always say silences are bullies' best friends. So if you want to stop the bully, you got to get loud, right? So in this case, how does somebody get loud start being noisy about the fact that hey, this is going on. And yet doing it not in a victim way but doing it in let's empower ourselves and the rest of the community to say, Hey, we should probably not do this.

Debi Silber

14:20

Right. So I mean, I don't think it really you accomplish anything from a victim standpoint, except making yourself sick. And that's really all you do. from a place of strength. It's having boundaries in place, and standing firm with them not being flimsy with your own boundaries. And the easiest way to see this is what would I recommend to someone else? If I'm, if I would say, if someone were to come to me and say, What do I do about this, or should I tolerate this or that or the other thing? You know, what am I doing? If here's the thing when it comes to betrayal to if I would be Completely an unwilling to completely unwilling to accept anything less than what I deserved, let's say from that person who betrayed me, Well, I have to be completely willing to show up in that strong, powerful way myself. So I have to be unwilling to accept anything less of myself. So I can't just, you know, anything goes, No, I'm holding myself to a higher standard. If I'm gonna hold someone else to it, I start first.

Ari Gronich

15:27

Right, I understand that. So I don't want to go bigger with that again, you know, my whole thing I want to go bigger, with bigger and deeper, bigger and deeper. So, again, I go, this is cool. And let's talk cancer is a betrayal, right? It's a betrayal. The betrayer is, let's say, in some case, the cigarette company, right? The cigarette company is lying to you for 50 years telling you that it's good, right? And now. And now it's done right now. Now we know. So now you're you've become the betrayer yourself, because now you have an open relationship with what used to be the betrayer, which is the company. 

Debi Silber

16:15

Right? So now my role is to not spend a penny with that company again. Because if I do that, and the next person does that the next person does and the next person does that. We're not supporting something that isn't in our best interest.

Ari Gronich

16:30

Okay, so how do we develop the chain reaction? If we see something that systemically bad not for us, but for everyone, right? How do we stem that chain reaction? So I'm going to go to a deeper thing cigarettes is like, easy, right? We already kind of have that around, let's say pesticides in our food, right? Which cause cancer, which are very toxic to your nervous system, your immune system, all those things, right? So let's talk about that. How do we get in not just you and me who have gone organic or whoever who, you know, says let's all go organic? And let's hug trees, right, which completely divides people? How do we get that train going to the companies that are providing those chemicals to stop the governments that, you know, like, how do we stop people? Yeah, other than just saying, I'm personally not going to do that, because one person's pennies don't mean as much as 100 people's pennies.

Debi Silber

17:35

Absolutely. But you know, it's like, they're the only word that comes to mind is critical mass, if I do it, if you do it, and then if our message gets to the next person, the next person, the next person, you know, that's, that, to me, is more effective. Listen, some people are activists, and they're going to be the ones with the signs and you know, protesting outside the company headquarters, and I get that I'm going to do my part and not supporting something and sharing the message to, let's say, my community, and doing my part. And if everybody does their part, it's we can have that that critical. That critical message, it reminds me of that starfish story, you know, you hear the starfish they're all the starfish on the laying on the beach. And there's the I think it's like a grandchild grandson and a grandfather and or something, no son, whatever. And they're just throwing one starfish in and one starfish in , and they're like, well, what's the difference? There are so many 1000s it's like well, this one made a difference to this one made a difference to this one. So I look at it like we're beautiful. We have a beautiful opportunity to do our part, share with our community, be the role model and let that let that grow. So I don't think the anger is what moves the angle if the anger motivates. That's beautiful. But coming at it from a place of strength not a place of just reaction.

Ari Gronich

18:59

Right. But I guess what I got from you, which I was looking for, was the share.

Then get out and you know, not just keep it within for a year yourself. Right? Well, but share it right?

Debi Silber

19:17

Well, of course. I mean, that's why I opened up the PBT Institute. What's the point of me just healing? I mean, I made a vow. I said if I, if I heal, I'm taking Everybody with me. You know, why on earth would I just do this for just myself? It's like, I feel like we owe it to others. If we've been through something, how do you not share that and shorten someone else's learning curve. And if everybody does that with their own experience, someone has a financial crisis. They teach how to avoid it. Someone has a health crisis. They teach how to avoid I had a betrayal crisis. I teach someone how to heal from it. I mean, I think that's, that's how we contribute. 

Ari Gronich

19:53

Awesome. So I like the anger. The anger absolutely motivates me. In some ways, and I like action, right? I like the movement of action; which activism is that? And I'm like for my audience you know, I'm calling for activism these days for people to be actively not going against the system but actively looking for ways that they can improve on the system. So Buckminster Fuller, one of my, you know, mentors, I guess. inspirations, I'd say, you know, used to say, you don't build something, or you don't fight the system, you build something better next to it, and people will come. That's a paraphrase. But that's the idea. So what are we building? Right? for people to come to that's better than the system that we've had. And so for you, you've created what you know, you call the PVT right?

Debi Silber

21:08

The post betrayal transformation Institute, there is nothing like it that exists. It's like how people know, a is if you have an alcohol issue, the PBT Institute is if you have a betrayal issue, you're not meant to stay there long. It's the training wheels until you don't need them. But there's a roadmap and a predictable way to heal now. So if we can avoid it, next best is heal from it quickly.

Ari Gronich

21:30

Awesome. So then I'm going to go into something I talked to you a little bit about in our pre interview, which is the body, the cymatics, the trauma that lives inside of your cells. Because at least in my years of experience, I don't really see talk so much, or cognitive behavioral, do very much for a person long term, it usually brings up the stuff more and you know. So I talk a lot about cymatics and bodywork and getting the issues out of the tissues. So we talk a little bit about that, and how that relates to what you're talking about.

Debi Silber

22:11

Oh, yeah, it's a it's a huge component of healing. You know, the talk therapy, it can do one thing, if you're unpacking it so that you do something with it. That's beautiful. But if you're just unpacking it, so you're just looking at it. I just don't see the point of that. I mean, and here's the thing, we found, the wrong type of support does way more harm than good. Because if someone is in highly skilled, you know, we're talking about betrayal here, if they're not highly skilled, and how to move someone through betrayal, it's it can re traumatize and just keep them re traumatized because so many therapists actually blamed the betrayer. Right, you know, let's say I we've seen this so many times, husband and wife goes to she drags him to couples counseling. And if that therapist isn't highly skilled in let's say, narcissism, let's just say right? Narcissus, crocodile tears, very charming. And the therapist can look at the betrayed say, you know, he just learned to communicate better. It's like, Are you joking? You know, so. So it's that has a role. Certainly, if it's a qualified therapist, there's an important role there. But you're right. It's it goes so much deeper. And you know, that was one of the discoveries that there's this collection of symptoms, so common to betrayal, it's known as post betrayal syndrome. We've had about 25,000 people take the post betrayal syndrome quiz, actually pulled some stats, if you want me to show you absolutely, and we have, every age represented just about every country in this is men and women. So this is so you see, how betrayal, shows itself physically, mentally, and emotionally ready. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hyper vigilant 94% deal with painful triggers, those triggers can take you right down. These are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy 68% have sleep issues, a 63% extreme fatigue, so you could sleep you wake up, you're exhausted. Those are your adrenals that have just crashed. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe they can't hold food down, and then later on, they're using food for comfort. 45% have digestive issues, anything from constipation, diarrhea, IBS, Crohn's, colitis, you name it. The mental symptoms 78% are overwhelmed 70% walking around in a state of disbelief. 68% are unable to focus 64% are in shock. 62% are unable to concentrate. So imagine here you can't concentrate. You have a gut issue. You're exhausted and you're supposed to work and raise your kids or whatever you're doing. That's not even the emotional ones. 88% extremes sadness. 83% are angry, just mix sadness and anger and that's exhausting, right? 82% feel hurt 80% have anxiety 79% are stressed. Here's why I wrote the book trust again 84% have an inability to trust. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how? 

Ari Gronich

25:32

Well, those are some pretty intense statistics, I'm actually very glad that you bring them up. Because, you know, I'm a woowoo scientist, I like science. I like research. I'd like, you know, the double blinds. I like that stuff. And I like the woowoo at the same time. So, you know, so yeah, so let's break some of that down a little bit. If you break down each one, like, what does that story tell you, like, just tell the story of what those numbers are?

Debi Silber

26:07

Yeah, the story is and one thing I can share, too, was one of the other discoveries, the five stages that we go through from betrayal to breakthrough. But what it shows is someone can be fresh out of the shock of their experience, or drowning in it. It can be decades; it could have happened decades ago. And they think just because time has passed, they're better and they're okay. And they're not. And it's interesting, because in the quiz, there's a question that reads, is there anything else you'd like to share, and people write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago, I'm unwilling to trust again, my betrayal happened 40 years ago, I can still feel the hate my betrayal happened 15 years ago, I feel gutted. So we know, you know, we've all heard Time heals all wounds, and I have the proof when it comes to betrayal. That's simply not true. So this is a representation of people who are stuck and struggling.

Ari Gronich

27:04

So what do you do? what would you consider a percentage of the population that has betrayal? Because I would look at the world right, and birth to death? I don't see anybody getting out of life without several betrayals, let alone You know, major ones, but several major betrayals, so what does that mean, for a country a populous. I mean. 

Debi Silber

27:33

You know, it means we have, we have so many things that we do so well, and so many things that we suck at. And where we really, it would really serve us to step up our game, something like betrayal. I mean, you see the havoc that is left in the wake of a betrayal. So you know, when that's what's left, after someone just breaks that unspoken or spoken rule, right? There's so much cleanup, there's so much heartache, there's so much damage, right. So it would really serve to just learn more about like, I wish everybody knew these stats, I wish everybody knew. So this way the betrayal could be like, again, do I really want to cause that, you know, these symptoms? To me, the person I say I love, right? I mean, because it's, it's inevitable. Now, that's not saying you have to stay with these symptoms at all. You can heal from every single one of them. I did. But that's where you land. And that's where you know, you can stay if you choose, you know, staying stuck is a choice. 

Ari Gronich

Yeah, so what's, you know, talking about those five steps? 

Debi Silber

Sure. So, so, you know, even but can I give you a little analogy, I think this would really serve, because I see this all the time with people where they are the ones who do get stuck, you know, I here's the difference between resilience and transformation, resilience is restoring. And you need that fear every day. When it comes to betrayal. It's more like trauma and transformation. So using this analogy of a house, and I talked about this in in my second TEDx, do you have post betrayal syndrome? So imagine the house needs a new paint job and you paint, right, that's resilience, you're bringing it back, you're restoring it, or it needs a roof you give it a new roof, that's restoring resilience. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels your house, right paint jobs, not gonna fix it, and a new roofs not gonna fix it. Here's the thing, though. You have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say, Oh my gosh, this is the most awful thing that's ever happened and you'd be right. And you can call over everybody you know, and say, look at this. Isn't this the most terrible thing you've ever seen? And they all agree, and you don't have to do anything. However, if you choose to rebuild your house, you don't have to but If you choose to, why on earth would you build the same one? There's nothing there. Right? Why not make it so much better, so much more beautiful. That's the opportunity. Betrayal is the setup for transformation. And when we look at it like that, we could be like, okay, it's leveled, it's dead and gone. I can at the very least rebuild a strong solid me. But who knows? A strong, solid, new couple, you could do that, too. Anyway, I wanted to share that before I got to the five stages.

Ari Gronich

30:29

 Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Because it brought something up in me, which is that rebuilding stage? And so one of the things that I've said, as somebody who's had a brain tumor all my life, right, is, I don't know who I would be, without this tumor with without the pain without the struggle without the angst. Without the trauma, without the betrayal without any of those things. I don't know who I would be. And then somebody gave me this glass or this coffee mug that said, life is not about discovering yourself, it's about creating yourself or something like that. And so when I look at, or when you're talking about the rebuilding part, decorating your house the way you want it, building the rooms and the space the way you want it, how does one even envision that from the place of betrayal from a place of, of damage?

Debi Silber

31:36

Yeah. And in the very beginning, getting out of bed, maybe all they can do. So I'm just acknowledging that because that's, that's real. And I'll walk you through the stages. In this way, you'll see exactly where someone is, and, and you'll know and I invite everybody to think about, as I'm going through them, picture yourself, if you're if you're there, if you were there, you know, where are you? Because you'll see yourself clearly. The first stage was a setup stage, I saw this with every study participant Me too, if you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was this real heavy lien on the physical and the mental, and kind of ignoring the emotional and the spiritual. What does that look like, looks like we're really good at thinking and doing, not really prioritizing the feeling and being, but that's where intuition lies. So often, we turn that down. But if there's a table with only two legs, easy for that table to topple over, and that's us, that's not to say, if you're busy thinking and doing, you're going to be betrayed, it's just that was what I saw. Stage two, this is by far the scariest of all of the stages. And this is shock, trauma, the day, discovery day. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. You're shocked. So you've just ignited the stress response. Now you're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness condition, disease, your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm, this makes no sense. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned. It's like a weird time warp thing that's happening right now. And your worldview is shut has just been shattered. That's your mental model. These are the rules. This is our life works. Don't trust that person go there, right. And every rule that governed life is no longer it's terrifying. Bottom is bottom down on you. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do you grab hold of anything you could to stay safe and stay alive? That stage three survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical of all of the stages. If you can help me get out of my way, how do I survive this experience? Who can I trust? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? Like it's that practical? Here's the trap.

Debi Silber

33:47

Once you figured out how to survive, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from, you're like, Okay, all right, we got this, and you start planting roots here. We have no idea. There's a stage four and stage five waiting transformation doesn't even start till stage four. But because you think this is it, you better figure out a way to make it work, a few things start happening. The first thing is, you start getting those small self-benefits, right? You get to be right, you get your story, you get someone to blame, you get a target for your anger, you get sympathy from everybody you tell your story to you don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again, should I trust you. So just forget, it's easier not to trust anybody. So you plant deep, deeper roots. Now that you're here longer than you should be? Your mind starts doing things like well, maybe you deserved it. Maybe you're not that great. Maybe this maybe that deeper roots. Now because like energy attracts like energy. You're calling circumstances and people and relationships towards you to confirm this is exactly where you belong. It gets worse but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad. But you have no idea there's anything better. Right here is where you resign yourself to thinking, this stinks. I'm in so much pain. I don't know how to get out of it, but I better figure out a way to make it work. So right here is where you start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, reckless behavior, to numb avoid, distract yourself from what's so painful to feel our face. So think about it. You do this for a day, a week, a month now, it's a habit a year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years out and say that emotional eating, you're doing or that numbing in front of the TV, you're doing work that drinking you're doing Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. They would say that happened 20 years ago, doesn't matter. You see, all they did was put themselves in a perpetual stage three holding pattern. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, if you're willing to let go of those small self-benefits, you have to do a couple things, grief, you know, mourn the loss, do a bunch of things, you can move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. Here's where you acknowledge, I can't undo my betrayal, right, but I control what I do with it. So I always use the example of if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever your stuffs not all there, yes, not quite cozy yet. But it's going to be okay. When you're in that mental state, you start turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet. But you just stopped the massive damage you were causing and staging in stages two, and three. Also, what I found so interesting to the stages, if you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right, you don't take the stuff that doesn't represent the version of you, you want to be when you're in this new place. And what I found was, if your friends weren't there for you, if you just had those like-minded stuck friends, right here is where you've outgrown them. And if you don't take them with you, I saw that all the time. And when you're in this stage four you making it Okay, you're making this your new mental home, you can move into the fifth most beautiful stage and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, self love, self care, eating well exercise, he didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do your mind, you're making new rules, new boundaries, based on what you see. So clearly now. And you have a new worldview. Based on the road you just traveled. And the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, were solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual to those are the five stages.

Ari Gronich

37:34

Okay, so you have the five leg table, center, one just right, rounded down into the earth. There you go. All right. So let's talk about stage three, a little bit deeper. Mm hmm. Because that's where I think most people are in a chronic automatic patterning, right, that we know about our bodies, traumas that our cells regenerate. Every you know, however, many months to however many years, we are completely cellularly a new person, every seven years, I think, seven years, but like our livers like a few of however many months in our lungs, or however many months. And so, in general, we're in a constant state of completely regenerating who we are as human beings, on a physical cellular level, right. However, what we know is that our genetics continually repattern the same traumas, whether they're physical traumas or emotional traumas that last in the body that are like, you know, in you. So what happens is, when at least when I start doing the somatic body work, is that the body no longer reproduces the scar tissue? You could actually see, like somebody who has a 20-year-old surgical scar, for instance, that disappearing as we end up working on that in those areas. Right. So how do how does? How does that translate to what we're talking about in stage three? Yeah, there are. We're completely rejuvenating and regenerating, but we're creating the same automatic patterns. And then how do we, how do we technically get that to switch into stage four? Mm hmm. Yep. From stage four, the mindset that allows us to go into stage five, because I think that there's something emotional and then mental about going through those two places. So 

Debi Silber

39:49

100%. So to answer your first question, I just want to answer before I forget, there was the part two. So the first part of that is, you know, how we're regenerating right new cells and everything. But when we're fueling ourselves with the same thoughts over and over and over again, that's absolutely what's keeping us stuck. Because think about it, it's the same thoughts that drive the same feelings, the same emotion, that drive more thoughts more feeling more emotion. So we're creating these neural networks, this, these well says groove like grooves in your brain that are so we become so hard wired. So it is so easy to keep going down that well-worn path, taking us to nowhere, we've we've done it, you know, so often, and it's there, there is a point, you know, in the beginning, we're ruminating, we're trying to make sense out of it. But then we have to prevent ourselves from marinating where we're just drowning in it, right. And it's when you've gone down that road 100 million times coming out no better than the last bunch of times, then it becomes, and this, this may annoy people, you're indulging, you're indulging in it. And there's that fine line, where you have to say I'm coming out of this no better than the last bunch of times. And now I have to be a little ruthless with myself. And I have to create a new neural network. So what you're at what you actually need to do is break that connection and form a new one. And what happens is, it's not like you forget your experience, it loses its emotional charge. So to your point, yes, your body's changing. But when the mind changes along with it, that's the chick that's, that's what really moves the needle for us. People in stage three, there with that same thought pattern that's keeping them with the same thoughts, habits, behaviors, actions that are keeping them exactly where they are, and really hurting their health in the process. That’s your first question, right.

Ari Gronich

0:00

Am just gonna break up the second one. So I know with like, say Tony Robbins, state change, right, a 45 seconds state change. So do you have state changes, for instance, to move through those places?

Debi Silber

0:25

Yeah, you know, one of the things that when we work with people, you know, within the Institute, it's knowing, first of all, they have to know where they are, they just have they ruminate enough, and now it's, it's causing some harm. So when, when they know and it's everybody's, you know, situation is a bit different, bit different, but when they know, then Okay, then it's time to come up with something new. So it can be something as simple as wearing a rubber band on their wrists not and so this way, they would snap the ribbon, not to hurt them to remind them. So when they find themselves going down that that rabbit hole that they've done a million times, what they want to do is kind of snap the band, you know, and then beforehand, they also wanted to maybe envision a really happy, peaceful scene, that feels better, right? And so that would be the time to implement it. So let's say they're triggered, they start going down that path, wait a second stop, and whether you have to scream it out loud screaming in your head, whatever you have to do, because those thoughts are running away with you snap the band is that reminder, implement that peaceful, beautiful scene, generate the feelings that come with it? You know, and you'll physic physically, you'll feel different, you're creating a physiological change. Do that enough? Because you can't think of two things at once. Right? So do that enough. And then the old track kind of loses its charge as the new track just, you know, slowly takes over. That's just one of the things

Ari Gronich

1:57

You know, it's interesting, when you were talking, I was remembering, being in Israel, and going down a cobblestone street that had groove marks in the stone from the carriages that would go through and how well grooved into history. Those grooves are from so many people. And what I find interesting is like, you know, those tracks are pretty thin, yet? Everybody went in the same tracks. 

And nobody. Look, it's almost like, nope, nobody went outside of those tracks and said, hey, let's create some new grooves. Right. So let's just kind of go. I know, I often go to nonlinear places. But let's go into why do we continually follow the same group that we know is not working? 

Debi Silber

Because we don't have to think. Thinking is hard. So we don't have to think that way. We assume everyone knows better than us, we assume it's right and true, not because we're tapping into our own inner guide. We're just assuming everybody knows better than us. So sometimes it's self-esteem issues. Sometimes it's, you know, a worthiness issue right here. But what happens is just because it's easy, just because it's familiar, doesn't mean it's good. The only benefit is that it's familiar, right? Like I use an example of, let's say, it's, there's snow on the ground, right? And someone, you know, paves a path for you very easy, right? You just keep walking on that thing. And maybe it's taking you nowhere, but if you were to then shovel a new path, right, it could be Rocky and unstable and you could slip and you can fall. But if you commit to going on that path, not allowing yourself to go on the other one, eventually that path is going to be as well-worn as the first but it's taking you somewhere so much better. But it's a commitment to stop walking on that first path and venture into the next one knowing that it's not going to be easy. We don't like getting uncomfortable. We don't like that. We will do all we can to avoid discomfort. You know but think of the caterpillar and the butterfly the most classic example of transformation think about that Caterpillar is just done being a caterpillar die think of it the symbolism hangs itself from a branch to die to the life it's known. spends a cocoon around itself is willing to be deconstructed emulsified unrecognizable from anything it once was only because it went through that does it get to be the butterfly, most beautiful creature on our planet, right? Can't do that. If it wasn't going through that process. 

Ari Gronich

4:49

And it has to fight to get out of the cocoon. It can't be helped, out of the cocoon, right.

Debi Silber

4:55

Yeah. And I remember someone telling me also if you were to go over, before it's ready, and just get really close to that cocoon, he would like shake a little as if to say Buzz off, I'm busy at you know, and it shows you transformations are very personal process, people won't like it. They like knowing where you stood, they like knowing what they can get away with, they don't like it when all of a sudden you have something else to say. 

Ari Gronich

5:21

So part of the grooves teaches me about the difference between leadership and following. And so we tend to follow our own grooves that we've created. I know when I'm driving in the rain, right, and I see the grooves of water that all the cars have gone through. I always go outside of the grooves, it's a smoother ride, right? It actually is smoother than going inside of the grooves of other people because I'm not being controlled, my steering wheel isn't getting locked into the grooves, right? I'm not being controlled by the grooves as much of other people. So let's talk about what comes out on the other side of all that pain that transformation and struggle goes through. And, yeah, let's just let's go to that.

Debi Silber

6:17

Yeah, you know, it's such an amazing process, when you realize just because that's what other people do doesn't mean it's right for me. And it's when you say Okay, you know what that may have worked for them. But this is my own path here. And I'm, you know, when everything crashes, and burns, I can, I can create whatever path I like. And I didn't even realize I needed to until this crash happened. And now I have that opportunity. So it is. it's such a beautiful space, to create something when I say create something entirely new, I mean, I'm talking a new identity, you take everything you like, about you and about whatever and you leave behind everything that doesn't serve. So that transformation piece is the step by step process of facing your fears and slaying your dragons and dealing with these painful, uncomfortable emotions, and deciding who you want to be at the end of it. You know, there's a version of you so healthy, so healed, so whole, so strong. And when we settle for the old, we never birth the new. 

Ari Gronich

7:40

Hmm, I like that. So, as I listen to you, right, I think of what the audience is thinking? What is the audience hearing? What are they? What are they needing right now? And because I think, you know, we basically told people, you're gonna be really, really uncomfortable for a little while. Right? And what's gonna come out on the end of that is, who knows, you get to create it. So let's talk about some modeling. Right? Yeah, for creation that doesn't include the comparison models that we're used to have. I'm comparing what I want and what I'm going to build for myself in this new person. And we're not going to compare to Madonna and to Jay Z, and to Elon Musk, and to all those other people we're going to, we're going to build from scratch. So how do we build from scratch? When all we have our comparisons to go by?

Debi Silber

8:49

Yeah. It's a great question. I think when you cut the comparison it is just the death of your creativity. That's the first thing. The second thing I would say is and listen, I gave birth four times it hurt. But look what you get at the end, right? So yes, we try to avoid this discomfort, you're not going through it for no reason. And I tell everybody in the Institute, this is the hardest, but the most rewarding work you'll ever do. You're not doing this for no reason. You're not doing this just because you want to punish yourself further. You've been through the hardest part of it already. This is the part you owe to yourself. But to find out who you are at your physical, mental, emotional best at your personal professional best. It's gonna take some work. And that's why, you know, people who come into our community, they're like, they realize this is not just like a support group. No, no, you're here to get your job done period. And that those are the only people I attract. But to answer your question, you didn't go through this to model anybody. You did this to discover who you are meant to be the highest and best version of Have you? You know, what, if you without your limiting beliefs without your old habits, without your old rules, with all of that out of the way? Who are you? Who are you? Right? That's what that's what's left to discover. That's what's available to you.

Ari Gronich

10:19

And, and to make that into an adventure rather than another chore. So here's, what I hear, you know, like, from, if I'm looking at clients that I've had patients in the past, right is, holy shit, I already have a job. That's a whole other job. And that's going to take that's even more important than the job that is making me money and sustaining me finding time. So Time, time and organization, time for the work time for regular work time for relaxation, recovery, rejuvenation, self-care, all those things. So let's talk about that. Because there's got to be balance here for the audience, right? There's got to be a way to, for them to go. Okay, I was overwhelmed. And now I'm.

Debi Silber

11:07

Alright. And here's the thing, your changes? They're based on you, you know, do you want those changes to be slow and gradual? Do you want them to be drastic? It's completely up to you as anything you do every action has a behavior thought you have takes you in only one of two directions, further or closer to the body health, life, lifestyle relationships you want? Which way are your actions taking you. So if you're the type that needs a slower, more gradual approach, beautiful, then just do that. It's, it's the people who say, Oh, that's just going to be too much work. Forget it. I mean, if the only reason we do something is because it's easy. What do you really expect, you know, think about anybody who's, who's in really great shape, they're working at it, anybody who has a great relationship, they're working at it, anybody who's great at their job, they're working at it, there are plenty of people who are unwilling to put in the effort in that area. Okay. But then be okay with just okay. If you want something good, it's, it's just gonna take the effort. And, and what I find too, is a lot of people stuck in stage three, it's not that life is so bad. They figured it out. It's okay. You know, it's like, they have their partner comes home at the end of the day, their kids aren't failing in school, they can button their pants, you know what I mean? to them? It's like, but it's okay. Okay, but what about all that they could have, if they were just a little more willing to turn up the heat just a bit.

Ari Gronich

12:44

So that willingness that you're talking about me is part of the trauma and the pain, right. So how does one get past and beyond the two parameters, right? Have you? I am traumatized, and I'm willing to be more traumatized on the way out? So that I could get through? Yeah, but that's a personality that says, Bring it on, right? So how do you develop that personality to bring it on? real transformation brings on. 

Debi Silber

13:25

You're not feeling that in the very beginning. Like I said, in the very beginning, getting out of bed, maybe all you can do and that's plenty. And then, you know, you get a little bit stronger and a little bit stronger and a little bit stronger. You're not, you're not fresh out of your betrayal saying, okay, you know, let's take on the world. No, you're not there's too much to process. But willingness is, it's just I love that word. Because with willingness, you will at whatever pace you're you can handle continuously move forward. And it's interesting, too, because in the study, like I said, there were three groups who didn't heal. One group that did not heal was completely unwilling to accept their scenario. They just weren't having it. They were like the people, you know, standing at the lot where their house one said, they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna kick and scream and mourn the loss of my house. They have every right to, but they didn't move. It's the ones who say, I don't know what it's gonna look like, but it's got to be better than this. You know, and so often, you need a little extra incentive. And so, you know, if you have kids, it's a beautiful opportunity. They're watching you, if you don't do it for for you, you do it for them. Like, you know, in my own instance, my kids, my kids saw me and I was like, I wasn't gonna burden them but I wasn't gonna hold you know, like, withhold the truth. They knew the truth. So they they saw mom crash, they were gonna see mom rise. And I said, it's, I have no idea what's gonna show up here. I love you. And I'll do the best I can give me a little bit of a pass. And I didn't know what it was gonna look like, but it's a willingness. You don't have to be all ferocious about it, but just just willing to keep going.

Ari Gronich

15:09

Right. But I like what you just said, as well. Give the warning to the people around you too. Right? He said, People around me, I have had this experience. And it may take me a little while. Let me go beyond that. What did you ask them to do for you? If anything?

Debi Silber

15:28

Yeah, you know, I guess maybe it was a unique scenario, because my husband was actually the one who told my kids. So, you know, I think on some level, they were it was like, Teen Mom there for a while. But I just, I really my only intention. During that time, I really went from like, kids, clients, you know, dogs, crash kids, that was it. And, and I just told them, I'm not working with a full deck here, right now, I'll do the best I can. But don't ever think for a second, this has anything to do with you. And I just, I kept talking to all of them. I mean, any, any parent will know your kids are so different. You can like I have four kids, they couldn't be more different than one another. And they each needed me in their own way. And I would try to be there as best I could, in the way that they needed. But I was very honest. You know, letting them know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not good today. I'm doing the best I can. But it has nothing to do with you.

Ari Gronich

16:34

So for people who are going through betrayal as an acute, right, it's acute, it's not chronic, it hasn't been a long time. It's just really this is Give me like, give the audience kind of your I know, you have the steps that what? Step one, I just got into this experience? Do I share it with people? Do I stay and hide in myself, you know, like. 

Debi Silber

17:09

These are the questions that come up, it's so common to protect the betrayer at our own expense, you know, because let's say they're well known, they're well liked the whole family, I don't want to shake the you know, shake things up. So we, you know, there's also so much shame, here we are, we've just been put in a club we never wanted to be and we're so embarrassed, we're so ashamed. We didn't even do this, and we're ashamed. Right. So and then there's the immediacy of, of just life, things that are happening. So it really depends on the person, they need a trusted other. And by that I mean, whether that is the right type of support, you know, a trusted friend, trusted family member. And then they, you know, there are certain things that are more immediate than others, if they're in danger, they need to get out of danger. If they're not sure about any of their finances, they need to figure that out. So you know, that's a priority. If it's just emotional support, that's a priority. Everyone is, is fresh out of their experience needing something, you know, one is different than the next. So it's meeting that initial need, but also, what I find is they need to know, you're not crazy, you're not alone, and you can heal from all of it.

Ari Gronich

18:23

Awesome. What is your suggestion for somebody who has gone through the transformation? They're there at the end of stage five. And they're looking off into the distance, so to speak. Yeah. And anything is possible. Right? They can create their new tomorrow today, they can activate their vision for a better world. Let's talk about those steps. Because I think that those are the steps that sometimes get really lost within the heaviness of those first three.

Debi Silber

19:10

Yeah, yeah. That is such a fun stage, we actually have a level of membership just for that type of person who is at that stage. That's where the fun begins. That's where you create that new body, that new business, that's when you're ready for that new relationship. That's when you're ready for that, you know, all of those things when you are carrying around like this 500-pound boulder of pain, and you put it down, look what's available to you. That's when you strategically, you know, move towards what lights you up. And you may have had no clue what it was until you get to that stage five, but that's when we usually see it in the community so often. That's when someone is a coach, a healer or a doctor therapist, they want to become one of our certified Coaches because they're so excited. It's like, they just want to pass it forward. But others, that's when they write the book, that's when they're committed to this new, you know, this new business idea that they thought was crazy. But now they have the confidence for it, that's when they're ready for that new relationship, they're ready to move, whatever it is, we never know what's gonna show up then. But when you're at that place, that's when you start planning for it. That's where it gets really exciting.

Ari Gronich

20:26

Awesome. What, what do you say is like, the biggest impact not just the individual, but like, let's say your community, we take your community, your, your institute, right. And we extrapolate the impact from your institute, how many people you've seen and how many people they know, and how many people they know, and yada, yada, right? Let's extrapolate this into so that people can get a sense of how powerful they are.

Debi Silber

20:59

Yeah. You know, even when you just look at one person, take one mom, right? Here's this mom, she's been blind, like, Look, at my own experience. I have four kids, right. So when you think about it, here's my experience through healing, that impacts four kids who now have amazing coping skills, because they've seen firsthand what healing looks like, right? Now. Think of the people that each of them know their partners, you see. So that's just one, this is me. So imagine how many how many people between the people that you touch just throughout your day? Where we're, you know, they're like, What? You look good? What anything new, you forget just healed from the most traumatic thing ever. Right? Or how it affects the kids how it affects, you know, a new partner or that same new improved? partner, right? It's endless, the new businesses that are started because of it, the new, it's it, I can go on and on?

Ari Gronich

22:02

Yeah, you know, I look at what it is that I really want in this world, right? You know, I talk a lot about creating a new tomorrow, I talk a lot about health, and science and fixing the systems that are kind of broken. And you know, how people can stop doing behaviors that not only harm themselves, but also harm their community and their family and their people around them. Right? And I look at this one statement, you can't love anybody more than you love yourself. And I always have found, like, felt like that is a false statement. I've always been able to love everyone else more than I've loved myself. Right. And I think that's true about most everybody. And I think that that golden rule is a little bit switched as well. Like, we don't want people to treat us the way we treat ourselves. We want just the way others. You know, treat us.So let's talk a little bit about that. And how we get that internal self-talk, how we get those things. Kind of dialed a little bit down so that we can really truly have that freedom.

Debi Silber

23:21

Yeah, I have a bit of a different perspective. And I guess I see so many. So many people come into the Institute, they're chronic people pleasers. And what they're doing is they're giving love, so that they get love in return. And that's not, it's not sustainable. It's not real. All it does is it's exhausting. But I do believe that we have to love ourselves first. Because if you do, you have so much more to give, you're giving without trying it's oozing out of you. It's a different energy. One is I'm going to give so you give me back. It's a lack of scarcity. And the other is its abundance. And, and everything is energy. And we feel that we feel that. So I feel like whatever work needs to be done, so that we're coming from that really full space, the and it happens when you do this kind of work. It just does. Because you'll like, you know, the version of me from years ago, I was so harsh and so critical and so judgmental. You know, now, I'm like, I really like me, we even have a new rule in the house. And I used to be so hard on myself. And then post betrayal. I decided, you know what, when I do, let's say I always get lost wherever I go, you know, and I used to just criticize myself in whatever. Now anything I do like that. I'm just adorable. And everybody has to say this that I am. You know, it's like, that's the thing and what we're doing is we're giving ourselves some grace, giving ourselves the love that we want. How much better is it when you just give it to yourself? It just he can't help but give it to others. When you do that. 

Ari Gronich

25:01

Yeah. I always tell people when I get lost I'm not lost. I'm just adventurous. You know, so yeah, so I appreciate you so much for coming on. Is there anything else you'd like to leave the audience with anything? You know deep dark dirty that they could do today tomorrow and start right now themselves to create that new tomorrow today?

Debi Silber

25:27

Yeah, I would say I mean it really finds out that I have shared the stage, see where you are. And at the very least, get the trust again book but at least you know, or take the quiz. Take the quiz to see to what extent you're struggling. They can just find that at the PBT Institute. com forward slash quiz. But don't stay stuck. Don't stay stuck. You owe it to yourself. You owe it to yourself to heal. And I promise you you're going to be blown away by who you meet on the other side.

Ari Gronich

25:57

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. It's been a great episode. I think we have a lot of good information, a lot of takeaways for the audience. And just want to say thank you again, so much for coming on, and providing so much wisdom for the audience. This is Yeah, this has been another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I'm your host, our Ari Gronich. I love these conversations that get dark and dirty and deep and help you guys with tips and tricks to change your life and your future and the future of our children. So anyway, thank you so much for being here and we are out. I'll see you next time.