EP 73: How Mediation results greater resolution in conflicts? with Brian Frederick

The difference in perception between tearing things apart, putting things back together, and peace-making versus ripping away and how does this relate to Brian Frederick's children book.

Brian enjoys acting as a full-time mediator, mainly in commercial litigation disputes. Brian is also the owner of GetMediation and heads up the panel of mediators there. 

Brian specializes in commercial disputes of all kinds, and he brings many years' practical experience to bear with a kind ear, imparting dexterity and empathy to broker effective solutions.

Brian is an accredited Mediator for Civil/Commercial and Workplace mediations. He qualified as a mediator in 2012 and has been practicing mediation ever since. Brian set up his own Commercial Mediation panel GetMediation in 2013 and is the owner and one of the senior mediators available there. GetMediation has most recently been awarded the Mediation Service of the Year Bristol 2020 prize in the Bristol Prestige Awards. 

Brian believes in cost-effective dispute resolution and insists that mediators on his panel are “adept at alleviating some of the particular personal animosity and bitterness which can tend to exacerbate the legal situation in commercial disputes, and pay particular attention to focus thoughts towards costs because the parties will often have a very uncompromising adversarial attitude towards each and every point at issue.”

He is also an author of a children's book titled Ziggy loves Sausage.

Ari Gronich

0:11

Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host, Ari Gronich. Today I have with me, Brian McKibben. Brian is an attorney turned author of children's books; I'm going to let him tell you a little bit about that story of how he went from that transition. So, Brian, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about that transition of how you went from an attorney, who specializes in mediation to an author writing children's books.

Brian McKibbin

0:43

Yeah. Well, first of all, I didn't expect to take that transition. When I went to school, I was always sort of funneled into this career. And I discovered I liked being what I sort of call an anti-lawyer more than a lawyer. So that's why I became a mediator because you're trying to put people back together rather than in litigation, you're essentially you're trying to tear them apart, it's in your best interest as a lawyer to keep the fight going, because you keep getting paid. It's in the client’s best interest to settle the case because that's what they're going to do in the end. I find I didn't like fighting. I liked peace-making. And so that was a transition in my own career. And I think with that mindset, I've always wanted to be a writer. But when I was younger, I thought I would write thrillers. And I guess with that, more sort of serious adult mindset that you might say, is in the lawyer’s typical head, when I became a mediator, it's about shifting perspective. And generally, about bringing happiness. And I think that all sort of coincided them with the little thing that happened to be in locked time, 

Ari Gronich

2:01

Component lock time, somebody may not know what that means. 

Brian McKibbin

2:05

Sorry, that's just my accent lock time. And during the pandemic, like when we were all told to stay home, some local kids decided to cheer us up, I guess. And they would, they would ring the bell, you know, the little game children play ring the doorbell and run away. But when you came to answer the door, the first time I came was very surprising, because I looked down. And there was a little bouquet of flowers. So, they left these little flowers that they picked, and they'd, they tied them up with a bit of sort of coarse grass. And, and then they came back over a few days, and it became apparent that they wanted to play a little game and, and for me to talk to them, so I did. And then gradually, these little heads would come out from where they were hiding. And we play this game that I could pretend not to see them and still talk to them, you know as if I'm talking to thin air. And this went on for a few months. And when I was taking walks, we have some woodland behind where we live, the idea of a story came to me and so I started to write this book called Flower fairies as a result of this sort of little inciting incident. And then I got, I got a bit of writer's block. With that after a while, and luckily enough for me, one of my characters in the story had this pet accident. And one day the story about one of the adventures of the little dog came to me instead. And that one flew, I'm still writing the other book, it's still in development, I guess you'd say. But Ziggy the dachshund and was born and I've written about half a dozen of those stories now. Two of them are published, and there's a sequence ready to go. So that was the transition really, partly mindset, and then partly a little bit of luck, I guess, and a little bit of inspiration from some of the little kids that, you know, came like, like the flower fairies to deliver some flowers for us, and cheer us up.

Ari Gronich

4:13

That's actually pretty cool. I like hearing those stories of what people have done during this particular craziness, to create joy and create happiness. And so that's really cool. What I'm interested in what I talked to you about a lot in our pre-interview is the differences in perception between tearing things apart, putting things back together piece making versus, you know, ripping away and how does that relate to your book? Yes, but more importantly for me is like let's dive deep into the perceptions and the things that people, you know, get benefit from in this time of like, the world feels like it's being torn apart and has been brought together. So

Brian McKibbin

5:12

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of fighters in there. When you're a litigation attorney, as I said before, you know that the profit motive is always there. So, when you talk to a client, they have a dispute, you're always telling them about a, a kind of fictitious best-case scenario, you know, ultimately, that that's why there's so many, you know, Court steps settlements because it's only in tacouple of days before the trial that your lawyer starts to level with you. And then everyone's disappointed to find that they're not going to score, you know, 100 nil here, that there's going to be a compromise. And I think, you know, the way that the world it feels at the moment as a wee bit like that, where there's just so much angst and so many people seeing so many things that aren't, you know, that aren't true or aren't verifiably true, and there's a lot of disinformation. And I think people are probably quiet, I know, I am quite anangst ridden at times, when I'm watching the news. In mediation, if I was, if I was sort of mediating that kind of situation, it's, it's about trying to change your headspace, and have a different perspective on things. And a little bit like in the books, to find that little bit of joy somewhere, because it's always there. It just depends hon ow you think about a particular event. I mean, obviously, there can be just events where it's a complete catastrophe. So, I'm not really talking about something that, you know, like a bereavement perhaps, or something like that, but something that's made you angry, is something that you can choose, you can choose your reaction you can choose if you're going to go apoplectic, and then start yelling at the television and throwing things at it. Or you can just let it be. And, you know, and get on with your life, you know, in disputes. That's, that's a picture that I try and paint for my clients that if they can,if they can reconcile the anger that they're feeling with a different perception of what could happen later today,when they walk out of the door with like, the rancor and fight the weight of this dispute. Doesn't the second thing feel better? You know, being able to go on with your precious life, because it's finite. And, you know, how many days more, are you going to waste months for years and money.

Ari Gronich

7:48

Let me see, let me take you to a dark place. Okay, let's take you to a dark place. This is something that has been going on for centuries. Sure. And I'll give you a little background. So, I had a roommate, who was a Palestinian Muslim, and she was like my sister, I'm Jewish. She and I would have amazing conversations, we would get into the meat and deep and dark and dirty and in the conflict, right? But we had the perspective of you're my sister, I'm your brother. And no matter what we say here, right, we will always be connected that way. And so, we had a way of speaking to each other that was kind and yet forceful in our own belief system. So, we were able to get these things out. So, my question to you would be, let's go to that kind of a big picture if you were mediating the, you know, Palestinian Israeli conflict, right, something that's been going on for decades, that nobody seems to have been able to get through. And I'm saying this because I didn't want to talk. I don't want to say mask versus not mask or Vax versus faxed, right. COVID versus not COVID conspiracy versus, you know, the industry is aamazing you know, perfect and would never try to hurt you. I'm not talking about the really deep stuff. I'm talking about just this conflict.

Brian McKibbin

9:26

Yeah, just this little conflict.

Ari Gronich

9:29

Just this little one. So, let's mediate this in a way that brings both sides together. Let's look at what would you do as a mediator in that situation?

Brian McKibbin

9:41

I think one of the skills the mediator tries to bring is to talk to people in a way that makes sense to them to help them reframe stuff to help them think about perspective but also to get their bbuy-inthe mediator is sincere. So, it's a nice example you've picked for me because I grew up in Northern Ireland. So, the Protestant-Catholic conflict there is quite similar and, you know, in many ways, it really is, you know, it's a lot of people look in on the, on the Palestinian Israeli conflict and see it as a Jewish Muslim thing. And there's an element of that. But my sense is that it's not just about that or you know there's a lot of nnuances the same thing in Northern Ireland, people think that it's just Protestants fighting Catholics but this there's a big proportion of people in the middle, rather than the people that you see shouting and fighting it either end. So, what I think I would do to start with is to try and reflect toth we call them participants in mediation, not parties,because party is slightly pejorative for it or divisive. So, I would talk to my participants each separately, because it's part of the ttrust-building rather than throw them into mediators different this, I don't favor throwing them straight into a room together, because I feel that a lot of tension and a lot of anxiety that they're going to feel initially. So, I come and talk to them. And hopefully ,I lower the temperature a little bit with each of them. And so tthat'show I would start is to try and reflect my own experience and help them hope, see that maybe I can have a useful perspective on their problem. And I've also some lived experience that they can, believe and that might make it worthwhile listening to me, and what am I trying to say to them. That's how it starts anyway.

Ari Gronich

11:59

Right. So, let's go deeper ointothat. So, the first idea is to gather understanding, and understanding in the mediator’s point of view is going to calm tension. So, right. So, the first idea is the middle party that has no, say in the situation, no steak, so to speak, is going to be the learning phase. So, we're learning and understanding about the other party. Now, what's next?

Brian McKibbin

12:36

Well, that phase goes into seeks sort of neatly into listening to what they want to tell you. Part of the process at that point is for them to feel heard. So, you listen, and you would reflect what they're saying so that they can understand that you're hearing them. And also, that your understanding of the same.

Ari Gronich

13:03

That technique is called active listening, correct? 

Brian McKibbin

13:08

Yep. Yes. And from there, you would start to have an element where you would ask for permission to play devil's advocate. And while when you're doing that, then you would be going through a process of trying to put into their head, the way that they having listened to them, trying to help them, imagine how the people in the other room are feeling and how the sense of their anger about whatever it is, is quite similar to that. And in talking to them about their ideal solution. And then trying to elicit some sense of, I hesitate to say sympathy, ultimately, you want some sympathy in a charged situation like that. So, it might take a while to get there, but at least a little bit of empathy. Yes. 

Ari Gronich

Right. So, do you want sympathy or empathy? 

Brian McKibbin

Well, empathy will come first. In the end ,sympathy doesn't matter so much because well, it depends what solution you're looking for, you know, if you want you kto now, if you want the sort of solution where one set of people on one side marry their daughter to the other said, son, you probably need sympathy. But if you just want people to live together a little bit of empathy will do certainly will go a long way to get into some sort of agreed solution. 

Ari Gronich

14:50

Okay so let's just I'm just breaking it down into the bits, right. So, you the learning about, we do the understanding this situation we do the asking of questions and repeating back the act of listening, repeating back what you're hearing. When a conflict like Palestine, Israel, right, we kind of have an idea of how people are feeling on one side, they're feeling rdepressedand oppressed and controlled, and like their land is being taken from them. On the other side, you got people who feel like, their entire world is always being attacked and destroyed. And they need a safe haven to be able to live and not, you know, have people wanting to kill them all the time. Right? So, you have these two different places where people are, and both sides vare ery valid. Right? So, now we have an understanding. Okay, so next, what where do you get to? How do you get from whining about the,the problems right? Into collaborating for solutions and successes? 

Brian McKibbin

16:01

Yeah. well, you would have asked them a little bit further backward about what an ideal solution will look like. And then you'll have reality tested and play devil's advocate with that a little bit so that you might have knocked some of the totally unrealistic parts of what the ideal solution a bit like, well, you know, if you're talking about litigation, it comes down to numbers, but it'll help to not guide some of what, you know, the fantasy elements, the lawyer might have told them that we can get you because it's not mean, you know, we, you know, can go on to trial, and who knows, you might have the perfect judge. But in reality, it's very unlikely, you would sort of try to narrow that ideal solution into something that begins to vaguely look like something the other side could at least look at without totally freaking out. And you'll be generally, as a mediator, I'll be going from the room with the Palestinian people, to the room with the Jewish people. And as the process goes along, and we're talking about solutions, you would start to get to the place where you're hoping that they'll start to make an offer. And then you will start to talk to the other room about this offer. And the first offer will obviously be a bridge or two too far. But, you know, you put it to them totally neutrally, because I like to say as a mediator, I'm not. I'm not in favor. I'm not against anybody. I'm Omni. 

Ari Gronich

17:48

Right, you have no steak.

Brian McKibbin

17:49

Yeah, totally no steak. I'm not in any way biased. So, I will just put the offer, this is what they've said. Occasionally, I will ask them, Is it okay? To tell them this snippet of information, this sort of, if you like, I'm the neutral insider in both camps, so I can, I can help. And that's part of the negotiation process. And hopefully, if both rooms really want to find a solution, and again, that's kind of crucial you, you start the whole process with getting agreement that we're both here today to work really hard to find the solution, whatever it is.

Ari Gronich

18:33

Okay, so now I'm going to take it a little bit further. So, you have two rooms of people with like, five people in each room. Say, Okay, so four of the people in each of those rooms, really like the solutions. One in each of those rooms is going to sabotage is like they're looking to sabotage. How do you get those people involved in the solution process? Because what I wee is like, you have the people who really want peace. The politicians,and the people who want power are the ones who have stifled in some way or another, the peace, and this is the systems in America, black and white. This is the systems everywhere else; you know that that divide us. So, when I'm looking at a group of people, and I see somebody who doesn't want to compromise who doesn't want to have an affect of solution, how do you create a solution that that is long lasting? When there's like those little elements on either side that that can't seem to let go.

Brian McKibbin

19:58

Sure, I mean, that that is the million-dollar question in our scenario here, isn't it? You know, when I'm litigating when I'm mediating litigation, it always comes down to numbers. And that's very convenient. Because that can be, you can make that as a sort of a non-emotive thing. It's just, you know, it's a trade. In our scenario, here, it's very difficult to somebody is going to be totally intransigent. I mean, mediation relies on goodwill, it's a process of building that goodwill, for people to engage in that if somebody's going to completely. If they're not going to engage with process at all, it's hard for you to move that, that final stone, I guess, the techniques that you would use is try to, try to gain their agreement, their agreement, I lied with the other people about what sorts of things they want, because that's a good technique. Insofar as, once people have stated a position I lied in, in front of people with witnesses, they don't like to go back on that. So, if you can move them towards some sort of common ground with the rest of their peers, then you might get some ultimately, though, if they're, if they're sued again, they're never going to want to come out. It's, it's difficult. And I guess, in our scenario, you know, that's kind of where we are. Having said that, you know, if you take northern islands as an example, you get, I mean, we northerner islands, you know, that it's still a naughty thing. If you, if you see at the moment, the still shenanigans go on, and but nevertheless, you know, the, the piece happened there where people stopped killing each other, so, or for the most part, at least. So, you know, that that was a massive, massive step forward. And it really required

Ari Gronich

22:12

How did how did that happen?

Brian McKibbin

22:15

Well, it happened over a period of years. So, the mediation idea is designed to happen in one day, I think that would be a, that would be a big, big trick to pull off in our scenario here. So, over a period of a much longer time, the trust that needed to be built was built in so far as each of those sides felt it was possible for them to make a move beyond anything they could have imagined before. So, for the IRA that would have been giving up their guns, under explosives and having that verifiably done on the other side. On the union aside, it was believing that was going to happen, and you know, they weren't going to, you know, they weren't when I was a child, you know, used to get these things they call all the terminology around the troubles even the troubles itself is so sort of Irishly euphemistic you know, the troubles, it sounds like a bit of an argument that you had with somebody over the fence, we used to have these things called bomb scares. So essentially, that was where somebody had planted a bomb in a shopping ccenteror something, and it was evacuated in a semi panic and you run away, just a bomb scare, I can remember things like that. So anyway, the other side were brought to a point where they could believe that those sorts of things and you know, the violence would stop, and they believed that it would. And then they had to also agree, or come to mindset that they, they were willing to, it's all about compromise the settlements, not about getting everything, you want, if it's going to happen. It's about finding something you can live with. And in the end, both sides agreed that it was it was worth people not dying, that that was a bigger prize than it was to hold on to weapons and an ideology that that required violence to achieve the result instead of a democratic means. On the other side, it was about trust that the democratic means was going to be the way forward rather than the violence, I guess. And that the process all the way along was taking them to that place where they could climb out of the trench and see the clear land in front of them instead of you know, this this obscured view that they had that made it difficult for them to believe. It was possible to get out of the trench.

Ari Gronich

25:03

So, you know, here's like the bottom line of what I hear is the incentive. What are the incentives that you're offering for me to stop my behavior? And I must have gotten that right. So, if the incentives are the things that get people to change, right, let's go back to a mask or no mask like that, or some people, they will absolutely there's no incentive that you could give somebody who doesn't want to wear a mask to wear it. There's no incentive that you could give somebody who's afraid for their lives, and wears two or three masks, just to take off the mask right at that point. So how do we get those people who are never going to agree, never going to understand each other never going to be on the same page, to at least be in a place of understanding and not trying to control one or the other. Right? This is a big one these days, this ccanceledculture this where they call it virtue ssignaling I'm or morality ssignaling and so it's like, I got vaccinated, I didn't get vaccinated. I'm going to be really excited about having gotten vaccinated, I'm going to be really excited about having not done it right. This is virtue ssignaling How do we get these two people to just say, Yeah, you do you and I do me and we could both be really excited about who each other is, instead of the way that it's been.

Brian McKibbin

28:23

Yeah. I mean, it's, I think, for me, it's, it comes back to the empathy again, you know, when you look at issues like that, or I mean, that the last American election was very like that, wasn't it? It seemed to this last sort of five years or so seems to have been a period of time where it's very polarized, you know, it's an either or, on whichever side you're standing, you know, the other side is demonized. And, and we seem to have lost that that empathy. You know, it's I don't know, whether it's the age that we live in, and the internet makes it easy to comment. And because you're not speaking to somebody face to face, you can say quite nasty things on your keyboard that you'd never say or, you know, unless you're really drunk or very mad. You ever say to somebody, somebody's face, unless you're expecting a fight, you know, a little bit like you do in your car, I guess, you know, you're sort of insulated mess. So, you can swear somebody in your past and there's just no consequence. I guess this is the thing. Anyway, the lack of empathy that I think that we, we have more often the past just as a natural sort of way of being. I think if we're going to alleviate this polarization, you know, we all have common interests and shared goals mean, in terms of masks or not masks, I mean, one place you could start is that, you know, I was gonna say nobody wants anybody to die, I suppose sometimes, at the far ends of the polarization, that's maybe not all, totally accurate. But by and large, you know, nobody wants anybody else to die. So and so that's, that's maybe something you can agree on. And I guess that's the sort of thing that you start to try and put together as a set of things that everybody can agree that, you know, we want our kids to be safe, and we want them schools to be safe, and workplaces and for people not to be in fear. And people don't generally like to fight, you know. So, there's a lot of shared values around stuff like that, but it all of them require a little bit of empathy. Because if you can't find any shred of, of something, or you could care at all about the other person, it's going to be difficult to stop that that sort of animosity, I think. 

Ari Gronich

31:15

Right. So, as a mediator, you know, you've got to be well aware of human emotions and the things that drive people forward. This show is all about creating a new tomorrow and activating our vision for a better world. You did that when you, you know, got caught up in the lockup and decided I want to become an author, while I'm sitting here waiting to you know, have things to mediate. And so, you wrote a book about a children's book about kind of what you do in mediation. So, why don't you just like, let's talk about kids, coz kids are going through amazing amounts of bullying, online, cyber bullying, and things like that. And I want to get to that kid, because you did write a book about, you know, children's books. So how do we teach? I have a seven-year-old, how do I teach my son? He's already pretty empathetic, right? But how do I teach him how to mediate in his own mind? Right? How to create that mediation mindset in his own mind. Now, so that when he's an adult, he it's in second nature to him to be in that state of empathy? how could other parents do that as well?

Brian McKibbin

32:44

I think, um, I mean, I just said, children are much better disposed and some adults to forgive and forget, and, you know, to make friends again, you know, you can see when they, when they fall out and have a fight, you know, they can be best friends in a few minutes. Maybe you have an ice cream or something. I guess, with that, as an example, you know, it's a shared experience that brings them back together and makes them happy again, I think, I would say for children, it's very good for them in general to, you know, to excite their curiosity about things. And one of the ways to do that, is to have them imagine how other people feel about this, or that. And I think that's the sort of headspace that you want them to inhabit, because that's the kind of place where, if, you know, if they're angry at someone, but they can start to perceive why that person may have acted the way that they did, and have a little bit of empathy or even sympathy with that, then they can't remain engaged with the anger and I think somewhere there is the answer to helping them be, you know, better adults and calmer, gentler, happier, people.

Ari Gronich

34:19

Awesome. So, talk to us a little bit about, you know, the few lessons in this book Ziggy loves sausage, and you know, I want to end I always end the show with three tips and tricks and things that people can do to activate their vision to make a better world to have a better world. And so, why don't you talk about Ziggy love sausage in the end the philosophies and things that will help others to create their new tomorrow and activate their vision for a better world.

Brian McKibbin

34:50

Okay, thank you. Well, Ziggy love sausages is about. It's about a little quest that this stacks and goes on but ultimately, he goes on it because he makes a promise to a friend to help them right along the way he has temptations to overcome. That's the tasty food stuffs that he has to ignore to, to get his goal, he has a little help getting his goal. Because basically, because he's a good hearted little creature, and there's a, there's a fairy that decides he deserves a little bit of help for that, then when he accomplishes the goal, and he returns this item to its rightful owner, again, ignoring the temptations along the way back, he's rewarded with a sausage, and the payoff line is that there's nothing the sausage dog loves more than sausages, even though he loves all this other stuff. So, it's about keeping your promises and being a good person, I guess. And the idea that there's happiness in, in that kind of mindset, you know, it's similar, I guess, to, you know, Christmas, the joys and the giving stuff rather than receiving it really, isn't it? So, I guess that's the lesson in the book, and something that I hope parents would want the kids to take away that, you know, selflessness is better than selfishness.

Ari Gronich

36:31

Okay, so ffulfillmentfrom giving as awesome. Is there anything else that you'd like to leave the audience with? How they could, you know, maybe better mediate themselves? How can they understand themselves more, thereby understand others more? What kind of questions can they ask themselves to get to that point? So, I just want to give the audience a little bit more love so they can really activate their visions.

Brian McKibbin

37:03

Well, I mean, ultimately, we all want to be happy. And I think that, you know, we spend a lot of time in the world today, looking at screens and seeing, I mean, the news wants to you know, the news is, is the bad news industry, really not the good news industry, isn't it, there's, it's, you know, you get higher ratings with the angst than you do with sunflowers. I would say to people that I think one thing is true. And with the kids as well as to try and go outside and see nature, because nature just is natures got, you know, no angst, if you go into the forest, the trees are, are there and they're magnificent, and beautiful, and they're not. They're not fighting, it's very difficult to be angry in a forest after a while. If you're with your child, the child has to start to be fascinated with nature and forget about his smartphone and his computer games. And I think that's, that's a great way just go in and walk in nature. And it's, it's hard to hold on to that anger. And in the doing of that your head will clear a little as well of the angst or the anger or whatever it was that that made you go outside to get a bit of relief from that. And I think I think we still do that. I've been trying to do that every day, since the pandemic happened, and I find it really useful. That that would be my top to go out into nature. So, its good.

Ari Gronich

38:39

Thank you so much for being here, Brian. I really appreciate all your, your wisdom, your ability to pivot and show that resilience as well in the face of, you know, what we've been going through is amazing and commendable. And so, I really appreciate you being on the show.

Brian McKibbin

38:57

It's been my great pleasure. Thank you.