How To Position Chinese Stocks In Your Investment Portfolio
36m | Oct 5, 2021Understanding China
Today in the Long Run Show, Austin and Mike talk about how the Chinese Government plays its role as an economic powerhouse in markets and how retail investors should approach Chinese
China is slated to surpass the US in terms of GDP worldwide in between 2026 and 2030. Austin and Mike discuss whether the regulation risks posed by the Chinese Government is overstated by the Western media and look at institutional investors sentiment towards Chinese stocks.
Hosted By:
NOT FINANCIAL ADVICE
The Information Contained on this Podcast is not intended as, and shall not be understood or construed as, financial advice
Unedited Transcript:
Here we are from Detroit, Michigan. This is Michael O'Connor and my co-host Austin Wilson with the long run show. How are you doing?
I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm excited to, uh, to talk about China today. Ooh. Yes. Interesting, interesting episode, big topic, big country. Everything's bigger in Texas, but everything's even bigger than that in China. Don't take techs. Don't tell them any Texans who are listening. It's a joke. Don't worry about it.
Just laugh. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, a big topic today, China, I it's so talked about for very good reason. They've experienced just incredible growth in the last decade. Um, Even the last few years have been pretty incredible. There's definitely been some mixed signals, especially in, let's say in the last year, uh, with the government cracking down on individual companies, there was kind of that whole anti-corruption campaign a few years back that cut headlines, but it didn't seem to, you know, provide the.
Funky stuff as, uh, everything that's been going on recently, at least that's my perspective, but I can't wait to hear your perspective, Austin. Yeah. So China's interesting. China's one of those countries where, um, you didn't, I don't know. I always thought of China and I didn't see it coming, but I have the bias of being very young, relatively speaking.
So I didn't see China really coming until the last. Four or five years as, as a superpower and an economic powerhouse, they obviously have, they have been planning this economic boom for decades. Now, the, uh, Chinese communist party, the CCP comes out with a, uh, basically an economic plan, every, I believe it's every five years.
Um, so they, they come out with. Periodic economic plans of how they're going to grow, what they're doing. They, they definitely forecast things through that. Um, but some of their, some of the bumps along the way have been, I think, a product of them trying to basically take, um, take two different, different views of.
Economics and, and smash them together, kind of the capitalistic Western view of using the capital markets to grow businesses and grow wealth for their citizens, uh, throughout the country. And then combining that with some sort of, um, well, obviously it's in their name, you know, Chinese communist party that some, some, some sort of, you know, then the name communism, socialism in some regard, um, to have more of a planned economy.
And so. Interesting to see how that's played out. Um, they obviously have had, like you mentioned, the, the corruption anti-corruption crackdowns a few years ago, and then this year we've had the, um, the breakups of their education companies and then just general regulation scares throughout the year.
What's what's interesting is even though they've had these sort of, um, regulatory risk scares for investors in the past, they seem to rebound, uh, which is, which is interesting. And it speaks to, even though they're trying to plan their economy, it speaks to their long-term belief in the capital markets and an understanding and an appreciation of the value of.
Uh, capitalism and, and, uh, competition, which they want competition, but in their own way. So it's, it's a interesting to, to see China's growth. And I was just, uh, looking at some statistics, um, beforehand here and, and. Already slated to pass, uh, surpass the U S in terms of world GDP in between sometime between 20, 26 and 2030.
So, wow. Within the decade, um, they will surpass the U S in terms of, of GDP worldwide. So their, their planning has obviously worked, um, They're they're achieving their goals. It's not like they didn't tell us they were, they were planning on this. Um, they're achieving their goals, but really, I think the question for investors is can you, um, can you, or do you want to.
Expose yourself to that regulatory risk and just the political risk as well. Um, that is, that is China. Do you understand it well enough? Is it something you believe is to use the Fed's favorite word transitory or, or is it episode one, a little throwback, a little throwback there to, uh, inflation, but D do you believe it's transitory?
You know, do you think, do you think these are just periods where China's going to have some volatility because. That's that's how it works over there when they're planning their economy and not just having more of a hands-off approach, like the, like a Western style might be. Um, or do you think this is a sign that the Chinese communist party is being a little too heavy handed and might might squash, um, the, the dynamism that could be.
Large capital markets to show her. I think, I think there's probably a, you want to look through it from an investing perspective. You want to look through your own lens to inform how you want to approach those, uh, those companies. Um, but from. From just a headline perspective. It's impressive that, um, that the, the country has been able to grow their economy.
So, well, I mean, just, just absolutely insane and that they're going to surpass the U S within the decade easily. Um, certainly in terms of GDP. So it's, it's just a, definitely an underdog story, um, of, uh, of, uh, economic rise. Yeah. Which is interesting because it. Um, what I always immediately think of is, oh, it kind of makes sense because they've got more than three times.
I believe more than three times the population somewhere, somewhere around about three times, maybe a little more. Um, and it's like, oh, it kind of makes sense. But then you look at a country like India, that is a very different story and not, I mean, India is, has come a long way as well in terms of the last few decades.
And definitely, um, they're doing quite well as well, but there's a, there's a. There's definitely a difference. Um, and the, and the population is not necessarily the only factor. And it's interesting to look at China as a, as a case study of, of geopolitics and how to grow GDP so fast and how to grow, um, just wealth on an incredible scale while having some really interesting and, uh, unfortunate human rights violations and all type of stuff.
This isn't a show to get necessarily into the politics of things, but it is important to, to take a broad, a broad look and a broad context, especially I've talked to some investors who are into ESG, so environmental, social governance, and, you know, they don't wanna, they don't wanna touch China with a 10 foot rod because there legitimate concerns over.
A lot of, I think part of the problem for investors especially is that you never know when China's going to kind of take over a company for, for the, uh, for the country or when it passed to when, uh, when a company's about to go bankrupt and they ask their government government to take over pretty much.
So it's, there's kind of that weird zone where, you know, you could be invested in a private company. And this is almost as harbinger of even if you're not directly investing in China's government in any way, there's always, you know, there, there are ways that things could be going on in the backend and everything.
So it is, it is interesting to get blurred maybe a little bit. Exactly, exactly. It is interesting to talk to you. ESG focused investors. Um, yeah. There's. Real serious concerns for, for good reason. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, I, that's kind of an interesting point. You sort of have kind of funny phrase to me investing in the Chinese government, but that's true.
I guess if they take over a company, I guess the term public company takes on a whole new meaning that like yeah. Yeah. The people's Republic of Alibaba. Yeah. Yeah. Really. Um, but, but it is, it is interesting. I think it's. Um, we have to realize where our biases lie. Right? Because obviously we're coming at it from a Western perspective and I'm not making a values judgment on that.
I'm not not saying that's correct or not. Correct. I'm just saying that we're going to look at it through. Uh, Western economic lens. Yeah. And we're not necessarily gonna, um, you know, look at it through a, oh, well maybe, maybe this whole planned capitalism is a good thing. Right. So I think automatically you have to kind of take that into account, um, as well, but it is.
Yeah, like you said, politics, this isn't a political show, but politics is, is a risk when it comes to investing. Yeah. And so there's a trade offs there that you have to balance and have to be okay with and, and have to be okay with a company who may have to, or be forced politically to support, um, a government.
Maybe has some, some human rights violations or some, some issues in it. Right. And so that's, um, that's also a kind of added risk on top of just normal regulation or political risk in a country. Yeah. And the interesting thing to think about too is, you know, the, the long run show, um, in the long run, you know, we, we all hope that.
China as a country. I hope that, I mean, I hope that every country in the world continues to grow Richard and prospers and better at treating their citizens and citizens around the world. So, so it's, it's I think, I think our show, ultimately I think. Pretty optimistic. Um, and I think if you're, if you're a human being, looking at the long run, generally you do want to be optimistic and you kind of have to be optimistic to, to be able to stomach some of the downs, the drops that can occur.
Um, but I think, you know, in the long run, as, as the show states, I think the. You believe that, uh, human beings as a whole or an optimistic and, um, progress or any people. So I think China is still, I mean, like you said, GDP, if it's growing as fast as it is, is it going to overtake the United States soon? I think the interesting thing is that you'll see a lot of positive.
Yeah, interiorly in China. I think you'll have even more advocates for, um, for your markets and for more accountability on the global stage coming from inside China, trying to improve it from the inside out. Right? Yeah. And that's, that's, that's a good thing to highlight as well, because I think. At this point, geopolitically, that seems to be the only lever that might push reform in China itself.
I don't, I don't really see any other country having a enough influence to, to really including the U S to, to really make that sort of a change. Um, but yeah, I think my, my opinion, my overall kind of premise on China at this point is that. It's probably, I think these, these downturns are probably overstated.
I think that the regulation risk is there, but that it is overstated by Western investors and media, just because they don't understand that, um, that China is trying to be a planned economy. And then they're not trying to be a carbon copy of the U S economy and the us stock market. That's a really fair point.
Um, and so. Necessarily again, I'm not making a values judgment on whether a planned economy is better than just a more free market laissez-faire economy. But I do think that's just the reality that China is going after China. China is the apple and we're the orange. You can't compare the two. Right. Um, so I think that's something that's missed in this whole discussion.
Oftentimes reporters and journalists will just start out by saying, oh, well this is, this is an overreach, or they'll have pundits on, on, uh, you know, CNBC or Bloomberg going, wow, this, this is really poses a risk to investors. And it's like, yes, it does. Short-term for sure. But in the long run, it, it may not, uh, it, it, it may work itself out as it has been shown to do in the, in the past.
Um, Again, this year has been, uh, quite the sell off for, um, for Chinese stocks, but you are seeing people like Cathy would Ray Dalio some, some high profile, uh, investors with a lot of money, a lot of institutional funds going back into China because they. Long-term value by the dip. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe buy the, buy the dip.
Um, but yeah, I mean, they, they see long-term value and Ray Dalio has always been bullish on China because he's got a ton of connections in China. Um, and he, he lived over there. His son lived over there for a while, so it's, it makes sense that he's very bullish on China, but that was, that was kind of his op-ed on LinkedIn, uh, was that this was being misunderstood now.
Again, I am not sure that I am. Uh, actually, I, I know that I would not prefer a planned planned economy to a more laissez-faire economy. That's just my, um, my outlook. However, I setting aside that bias of my, my own. I do think that it's, it's overstated. So that's kinda my, my premise on the whole China and regulation risk and what we've seen this year, as far as the sell off, that's a really.
I like that. I, cause I think it is easy. Like you mentioned to take things from the perspective that we always take things or we're used to taking things. And I think China is a very salient example of something that you can get burned if you're taking it from the U S of, of an example of, you know, if something happened in the U S where they were like, yeah, we're gonna, we're going to shut down Google and take it over.
You'd immediately. Yeah. People would be crazy. It was absolutely insane. Um, and so just the, the difference between, well, I mean, look at 2008 too though, but uh,
oh, geez. Okay. Oh man. Well, yeah, but I mean, I guess a good, a good analogy to, to explain, to put a little more meat on the bones of what I, what I mean is if you want to understand if you want to thoroughly understand, um, The literature of a country. So let's say you, you want to thoroughly understand. You want to thoroughly understand French literature, you would be best served by learning French and reading it in the native tongue because the translation over to English is going to lose a lot, especially if there's, you know, uh, you know, innuendos and plays on words that you would not have seen, um, in, in the translation.
So the same thing holds here. If you're looking to invest and understand the business world and cycle and business value in China. You're better served by understanding how the Chinese government looks at that and how Chinese businesses look at that rather than bringing your own approach to the table there.
Right. And you do want to temper the two obviously, but I think you're, you're best served by understanding that the native tongue so to speak. And here's a, here's a bit of a devil's advocate kind of question here is, do you think it's worth it for. The average investor or, or the, the non average investor to spend the time to really dig into, like you're saying into the Chinese culture, into, you know, whatever the factors are that, that you think are necessary for long-term investing over there.
Because I think, I think, I don't know. I think the answer is yes, but probably not for everyone. I've been to hear what your thoughts on that is. Well, I think, uh, Again, realizing I have my own biases. I think that don't, we all, yeah, exactly. Just important that you recognize them. Um, I think that the best way to go for most people and most investors, if you don't really have the time to sit down and like you said, immerse yourself in the culture and understand how, how the Chinese government has acted in the past, how they might act in the future, what the politic, the political landscape looks like.
If you're, if you don't have the time or resources to understand that, put, put effort into it, what I would do is just diversify your exposure to that part of the world. So. By some sort of ETF, um, there's even leveraged ETFs from direction out there. There are unleveraged, lots of unleveraged, emerging market, ETFs, Chinese ETFs.
Um, and there's a growing number of indexes, um, for, or indices, I guess, for the, uh, the Chinese market footsies got some, um, so there's, there's a lot of. Options as far as a basket of stocks, which sure is going to obviously reduce a little bit of that, that, uh, regulation risk. If you can get across multiple industries, industries, instead of just focusing on individual stocks, uh, that's going to diversify a little bit of the regulation risk away.
So that, that would be my approach for the average investor. Now, if you have some sort of, you know, idiosyncratic. Like, I guess, expertise, um, that you studied abroad in China for 10 years, then you might be able to, to get more into the individual stocks, but yeah, for the, for the normal everyday investor, I would, I would say an ETF is a good way to get exposure to that space without getting, without having to burden yourself with becoming fluent.
The Chinese business and political landscape. Yeah, that's fair. I, I am the more risk heavy of the two of us and I don't even have any Chinese stocks, so no, I don't. Well, I, I used to invest a lot in Korean and Japanese stocks actually, really, um, and Korea, Taiwan and Japan. And those do very well, but you know, it's a different growth opportunity at this point, especially in different industries.
I mean, tech is absolutely everything in, in Korea and Taiwan. It's huge. It's absolutely huge. I mean, in manufacturing, um, but tech and tech, really tech manufacturing. Yeah. And in Japan as well, but in China, it's interesting because there's, it's, it's pretty much the same, the same. Or a similar opportunity of investing in the U S and like the sixties and seventies kind of thing.
Similar, it seems to be that kind of trend, which is just crazy to think about. Do you think, do you think it's worth pursuing then individual stocks and, and again is my premise wrong? Do you not need to not need to understand thoroughly the landscape over there? Can you, can you bring a purely Western.
Investment philosophy to that to pick, you know, individual winners and losers. No, I think that's an easy way to lose money if you're bringing the Western investment philosophy. I think you're, I think you're spot on, um, which makes it tough because I think that it is very likely that you could see incredible gains by picking individual companies, but the risk is just so high it's.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a completely, it's a completely different risk profile compared to picking stocks in the United States. Pretty much any time period. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's totally different. The gains are probably there. I mean, if, if. GDP does surpass the United States by 20 26, 20 30. Yeah. We're going to see insane stock gains between now and then that's just guaranteed, but which ones that's a real dangerous game.
Right? Which is why it might be better to go ahead and just go with the top 50 or the top 100 of some index, which. I'm surprised there isn't a, there probably is. Um, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some hedge fund or some specific fund that is going after individual stocks and trying to, to do that, like exclusively.
Like I would imagine that there's some Western funds it's, it's trying to do that. So if you can, uh, invest in them, if you're a, you're a high net worth and you can get in them, that's probably right. I'd probably be what I would do. Yeah, that would, that would probably make the, uh, make the, the most, the most sense, because again, you're farming out the expertise to someone else.
You can outsource it, obviously you're gonna pay for it, but it might be well worth it because I think the, with all of the, uh, risks at the, at the very micro level that we see, I think. Almost no risk. Again, this is okay. Very low risk. I think there's very little risk to the statement that the Chinese economy is going to be larger than the U S economy.
Interesting. I, I really am very. I am very impressed after doing some, some research into the Chinese economy and where they're headed. I'm thoroughly impressed with how efficient they are at, at building their economy and, and how, uh, dedicated solely to that goal they have been. And I look at, you know, I look at the U S and, and I, and I think, okay, well, this.
Uh, obviously an amazing story. I'm not discounting that at all in the U S the U S and its growth, and it's being a world superpower and amazing story. But, um, the, the unity with which China now, albeit maybe forced unity with which China is pursuing that goal of being the number one economy in the world, it's going to be very difficult to stop.
Just purely because we have a different free market scenario, right? We are not going to the U S is not going to be forcing unity in, in the pursuit of, you know, economic success. That's just not how we work as Americans. So I think maybe, maybe I would be, I would love to be proven wrong because I guess that would be, uh, a further, um, I guess, battle of the philosophies, whether free, uh, free.
Markets and free will really drive innovation and value higher than a, than a planned efficient market. Um, that would be, uh, that would be something I'd love to be proven wrong. But I think within the decade, I, I believe China is going to be the larger of the two economies. So interesting. That's kind of interesting though, because you have the micro level risks, but at the macro level, it seems to me very certain that.
China will we'll be the number one economy. So like you said, it's, maybe you take that, maybe take that broader base bet, but there probably will be a large winners and losers on the, on the individual stock basis. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a fair point because there is, I mean, just the. The basis, the philosophical basis of culture in the U S is so individualistic.
Whereas, you know, in China, it's, it's so communal, um, that, that, yeah, exactly what you're saying, you know, that, that kind of group goal is much easier to aim at when you have a communalistic society rather than individualistic. So yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah. So with the, um, with the. No kind of political risk and the regulatory risk in China doesn't seem like even you as a risk-taker would be, would be buying individual stocks.
Yeah, I would rather, uh, I'd rather be buying individual cryptos than individual Chinese. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, yeah, I guess that's fair. I. As far as a portfolio, what would you, what would you be doing to kind of prepare for what seems to be maybe an inevitability that the Chinese economy is going to be bigger than the us.
And does that matter when it comes to your portfolio? Sure. That's a good question. I think right off the bat, I will say that one of my strategies currently is to be looking into the ancillary effects of Chinese growth. I think that the more China grow. Sure. You're going to have huge winners in China, but where you can actually have less, a little bit less, um, upside possibility, but also definitely less risk is by investing in companies that are in the area.
So Japanese companies, Korean company, Um, I think are great investments because if you have an absolutely exploding economy in China, there's going to be more demand for consumer products, luxury products, software. Everything's gonna be more demand for everything as wealth increases in the area. And as China increases its ability to be this, this kind of regional powerhouse as it has been, uh, you're going to see.
More and more trade between China and its neighbors and more and more opportunities for the neighbors. To me, making a lot of money, uh, Japan, you know, specifically absolutely incredible story as well. Um, made an enormous amount of money by creating the best electronics in the world and then selling to the United States.
They're just going to be able to also sell more and more and more to China as more and more people in China. Um, as wealth increases, I think investing in the Korean stocks and the Japanese stocks, that's, that's actually a part of my strategy for, for China growth. So the individual stock side comes in for me.
Um, for those regional stocks that have less political risk. And then, like you said, an ETF for, for Genesis. Right. Yeah. And, and there's, I, I agree. I think there's, you know, like, uh, like we mentioned earlier, some large cap ETFs you could go after, as far as Chinese, um, indexed funds, um, that would be a smart move and a good play.
Do you think, um, you mentioned the, the, uh, China increasing its trade with its neighbors. Do you think. As they grow. Do you think they will play nice enough to put it in a elementary way? Yeah, I think they'll play nice in the sandbox over there. I mean, I mean, I think it's interesting because I think they'll in, in one way or another, they're going to have.
Um, because the alternative is, you know, rapidly deteriorating relationships. The problem is, is it's kind of the, the apocalypse conundrum where you could, uh, short sell the whole market and make an enormous amount of money. And then just not be able to withdraw or not be able to do anything with it as soon as world war three starts.
Right. So hopefully that doesn't happen. Uh, hopefully, you know, again, kind of the optimistic long run out, uh, Uh, hopefully that doesn't happen. Hopefully they do start playing nicer with neighbors. Um, and I, I think they probably will. I don't know for sure that's speculation, but I think that as time goes on, I think we've had probably in the last, you know, two, three.
Even five years, we've kind of had just, just funky relations with China in the region and in the United States, um, to China. And, you know, I think part of that is, is some of the, some of the things that China has done, you know, like we talked about human rights violations, um, some of their actions to aggravate their neighbors, et cetera, but I'm hopeful that as time moves on that, that there will be more cooperation.
There will be, um, More trade, especially in that regional area. Okay. Yeah. And actually on that note, uh, it, it, it just crossed my mind here. There, China is doing some interesting things in, um, Africa and Latin, and that's a really good point. And, and they are increasing the amount of financing that they send that way.
Yeah. Some of it is a little nefarious that the, what was it? The south African, uh, like broadcast center found that they, they got financed by China and then they found that they were bugged. So, I mean, that's not, that's not ideal, but, um, in those emerging markets, I mean, Africa, especially. Is, I believe Africa is probably one of the most untapped and under reported stories of, of this century.
Um, they're very, they're, they're poised for a lot of growth. Um, and China may play a very large part in that and maybe come good, good trading partners or just financing partners as well for, for, um, Africa. So exposure to Africa, African-based, uh, Companies and stocks is a little bit hard to come by. Um, there's no real good exchange if correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't think there's any real centralized exchange in Africa. Um, but so, so that may, that may be something to look at as far as trade, um, which again, you were mentioning trade over in, in the. In the Pacific, but they're going to be obviously global superpower. They are a global superpower and will continue to be so, so things like shipping, anything that's, uh, that supports global trade, that that would include airlines as well.
But shipping being the main one, um, that's also probably a good, um, Kind of investment in a more, uh, more of a de-risked profile compared to investing directly in Chinese, uh, individual company as well. Yeah, that's a really, really good point. Cause I, I totally agree. I think in the long, long run too long, the long run, uh, India and Africa are the, the biggest opportunity for growth and gains, um, in the world.
And, you know, I think that's going to take longer than. Then people think, but I think that is the place. Uh, those, those are the places as it were. Right. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think China is going to have a big hand in that. Um, they know how to, they know how to, how to finance debt like they do to us.
They're the experts. They definitely, and Brazil is a huge asset. If a couple of years ago, Brazil was a huge, huge trading. For, uh, for, uh, raw materials with China, supporting China's manufacturing and industrial, um, growth as well. So that's another country to keep an eye on as well. Um, looking at more raw materials, but as they grow, I mean, they're, they're going to have huge problems.
Internal problems just with real estate and growing the number of houses they're going to need. So that's the building, the number of houses, I guess you can't grow a house. Can you? Yeah, maybe it's a tree house. A tree house. Yeah, you could. Uh, but building, building the number of houses. So you know that, that's another, another thing to keep in mind.
I think there's a lot of tertiary downstream effects. Burgeoning economy that we might not initially think of whether that's trade and therefore shipping or whether that's raw materials, because they just need to grow infrastructure, both business and, you know, transportation infrastructure. Human infrastructure for, for living as well.
Uh, so I think there's definitely opportunities, uh, kind of from a downstream perspective in China, but it is, it is something to keep in, keep an eye on and, and balance the risk that you're taking there. You don't, obviously you don't want to be buying anything that you don't understand. Could easily be the case with China because you might look at it and go, oh, I understand the fundamentals on paper.
Uh, but the, the, uh, inherent regulation and political risk, and I guess you could even debate cultural risk over there. Um, I didn't learn that one in my textbook. Um, even the cultural risk that may come around to haunt you. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, none of the, as always, none of this is financial advice.
And then I just talk to your financial advisor. Um, but I think that's a good point of in general, you don't want to invest in things that you don't know what's going on. And I think China is probably one of the more opaque, um, places to invest, but it's tough because it's, it's almost a situation where there is so much opportunity.
But it is such a, such a black box in some situations of what's going to happen, that it sits a bit of a conundrum. I think for a lot of people because they hear, oh, everyone's invested in China, buy these stocks and they really don't understand it. Or maybe they do a little bit and they go in and maybe they see really good returns and or maybe they don't.
But there is that, that, that paradox of, you know, it is very likely ground for extremely. Solid returns, solid growth as a country, but it's not as easy as investing in United States or Europe or most of the other Asian countries as well. Right? Yeah. Somewhere where you understand the, how the systems intending to be run.
Right. It's it's, there's definitely a, an understanding gap, I guess, that us investors, right. Realize when they're going, going and looking at the Chinese stock market. So yeah, I think that about does it for us here today on this episode of the long run show, obviously hit that subscribe button. And if you want to drop us a review, that'd be awesome.
Five stars really help us out. Um, if you want to just tune into the next episode, Right review after that one, because it's going to be even better. So we will see you next week on the, uh, on the long run show. This is Austin Wilson and he is Michael O'Connor and we have had a great time. All right. See you next time.
Bye-bye
Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-long-run-show/donations
