https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/18e3a558-dce6-4faf-9047-a678b8ba7536_Debt_1_-_11_9_21_533_PMa9gne.mp3

In this episode Song and Sara discuss some of their own journeys with debt - especially around student debt.
<a href="https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-department-education-announces-transformational-changes-public-service-loan-forgiveness-program-will-put-over-550000-public-service-workers-closer-loan-forgiveness" rel="nofollow">U.S. Department of Education Announces Transformational Changes to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, Will Put Over 550,000 Public Service Workers Closer to Loan Forgiveness</a>
<a href="https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff_reports/sr733.pdf" rel="nofollow">Federal Aid Increases College Tuition and Student Loans</a>
<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/29/your-money/credit-card-debt-stress-health.html" rel="nofollow">Credit Card Debt is Bad for your Health</a>
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

In this episode Song and Sara discuss some of their own journeys with debt - especially around student debt.
U.S. Department of Education Announces Transformational Changes to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, Will Put Over 550,000 Public Service Workers Closer to Loan Forgiveness
Federal Aid Increases College Tuition and Student Loans
Credit Card Debt is Bad for your Health
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

Vulnerability and Debt

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/2e00c2dd-891b-4701-96f0-0719d472c862_California_Fires_-_10_22_21_204_PM73t08.mp3

In the (hopefully, almost) aftermath of yet another wild wildfire season, in an episode that takes us to the California fires (and Sara&#39;s childhood!), Sara shares her experience and knowledge of fire management, fire-related history, and policies. And of course, no episode is complete without a discussion of the role of corporations. Recorded Sept. 17, 2021. 
<a href="https://www.npr.org/podcasts/759973777/california-burning-solutions-to-california-s-wildfire-problem" rel="nofollow">California Burning Podcast</a>
<a href="https://www.npr.org/podcasts/906829608/timber-wars" rel="nofollow">Timber Wars Podcast</a>
<a href="https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/environmental-activists/last-line-defence/" rel="nofollow">Last Line of Defence - Global Witness Report</a>
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

In the (hopefully, almost) aftermath of yet another wild wildfire season, in an episode that takes us to the California fires (and Sara&#39;s childhood!), Sara shares her experience and knowledge of fire management, fire-related history, and policies. And of course, no episode is complete without a discussion of the role of corporations. Recorded Sept. 17, 2021. 
California Burning Podcast
Timber Wars Podcast
Last Line of Defence - Global Witness Report
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

California Fires

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/87738baa-f339-427d-9df2-2319617e9f7a_MarijuanaCannabis.mp3

With the spate of legalization and decriminalization laws hitting states, we dove into the history, the current state, and the questions for the future impacts of the laws on communities. 
Notes: <a href="https://freakonomics.com/podcast/marijuana-legalization/" rel="nofollow">https://freakonomics.com/podcast/marijuana-legalization/</a> 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

With the spate of legalization and decriminalization laws hitting states, we dove into the history, the current state, and the questions for the future impacts of the laws on communities. 
Notes: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/marijuana-legalization/ 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 
 
 

Legalizing Marijuana

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/d6d135c3-65d0-4725-83ee-382dfc24bdb4_Season_2_Episode_10_-_5_17_21_920_AM7debb.mp3

The things that connect us, challenge us, and make our partnership work: enneagram, faith, and <a href="https://www.bigfriendship.com/" rel="nofollow">Big Friendship.</a>
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

The things that connect us, challenge us, and make our partnership work: enneagram, faith, and Big Friendship.
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

Our Friendship

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/c06024b7-2082-404b-8465-7e6958b78bd5_AAPI_final.mp3

This Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage Month, Song gets personal. Song and Sara have a conversation around Song&#39;s identity, and the role it has had in her career working on policy and using the law to defend the rights of the AAPI community. Song calls out the non-obvious violence (read, police violence and deportations) against the AAPI community, and what it would truly take to Stop Asian Hate. 
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

This Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage Month, Song gets personal. Song and Sara have a conversation around Song&#39;s identity, and the role it has had in her career working on policy and using the law to defend the rights of the AAPI community. Song calls out the non-obvious violence (read, police violence and deportations) against the AAPI community, and what it would truly take to Stop Asian Hate. 
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

On Being Asian American & Deconstructing Anti-Asian Hate

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/91b9c78e-673e-45e1-bdd9-5242776ff586_Season_2_Episode_8_-_4_20_21_902_AM8flao.mp3

... avoiding perfection and powered by ethics.
Song and Sara reflect on their <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/events/dei-in-hiring" rel="nofollow">Start-ups and DEI Event</a> 
<a href="https://www.manunmadepodcast.com/episode/man-unmade-podcast-episode-8-sarah-beth-pantsuit-politics" rel="nofollow">Man UnMade podcast with Sarah &amp; Beth</a>
<a href="https://www.realclearpolicy.com/2019/12/30/my_semester_with_the_snowflakes_43753.html" rel="nofollow">My Semester with the Snowflakes</a>
    -<a href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/james-hatch-yale-snowflakes-medium_n_5e0639cee4b0b2520d1511ae" rel="nofollow"> Huffpost article on the author</a>
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

... avoiding perfection and powered by ethics.
Song and Sara reflect on their Start-ups and DEI Event 
Man UnMade podcast with Sarah &amp; Beth
My Semester with the Snowflakes
    - Huffpost article on the author
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

Start-ups as Speedboats

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/f532d2b5-6362-4477-899e-d90cb80fe3a4_Ethics_MVP_final7ye3t.mp3

We kicked off our startup series with a conversation with the brilliant Jessica Pachuta and Dror Yaron of <a href="https://www.ethicsmvp.com" rel="nofollow">Ethics MVP</a>. We talked about our journeys as founders, about practices for operationalizing ethics (name your values!), and as a bonus, even got to hear ethics defined in the most simple, elegant way. 
 
Mentions:
<a href="https://online.sxsw.com/event/sxsw-online/planning/UGxhbm5pbmdfMzM1NzIx?_ga=2.239718787.101311129.1618206346-969500847.1618206346" rel="nofollow">Why do we fear innovation</a>? 
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

We kicked off our startup series with a conversation with the brilliant Jessica Pachuta and Dror Yaron of Ethics MVP. We talked about our journeys as founders, about practices for operationalizing ethics (name your values!), and as a bonus, even got to hear ethics defined in the most simple, elegant way. 
 
Mentions:
Why do we fear innovation? 
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 
 
 

Ethics Minimum Viable Product

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/85063994-1133-4966-9929-945cda4d21cf_Season_2_Episode_6_-_3_6_21_256_PM7eug3.mp3

A conversation with Eli Terris on the Insulin for All Campaign, how important state policies are in making real change for accessible health care, and how to be a sustainable activist.
Mentions:
<a href="https://www.t1international.com/CT/" rel="nofollow">Connecticut Insulin for All</a>
<a href="https://medicine.yale.edu/intmed/endocrin/programs/diabetes/" rel="nofollow">Yale Diabetes Center</a>
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

A conversation with Eli Terris on the Insulin for All Campaign, how important state policies are in making real change for accessible health care, and how to be a sustainable activist.
Mentions:
Connecticut Insulin for All
Yale Diabetes Center
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 
 
 

Access to Insulin

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/1db11bf4-4a4d-4f5f-b1c7-a3081b857169_Juhu_and_Media85zbf.mp3

This week, Song and Sara are joined by human rights lawyer, social impact founder, and communications strategist extraordinaire, Juhu Thukral for a conversation on all things media. Juhu gives us insights on brand strategy and creating messaging for social justice issues that inspire and last, and we discuss how we engage with media today, talking NFL, NBA, and Succession along the way. 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

This week, Song and Sara are joined by human rights lawyer, social impact founder, and communications strategist extraordinaire, Juhu Thukral for a conversation on all things media. Juhu gives us insights on brand strategy and creating messaging for social justice issues that inspire and last, and we discuss how we engage with media today, talking NFL, NBA, and Succession along the way. 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

Media, Major Leagues, and Messaging Masterclass

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/30034859-ddae-4258-b4df-924f40e21c40_Season_2_Episode_4_-_3_6_21_123_PM76s0s.mp3

Song and Sara talk about their personal experiences with navigating health insurance providers and platforms in 2020, and discuss some of the things that could make the process better and what economic incentives can we use to really make the system work for the people reliant on it. 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Song and Sara talk about their personal experiences with navigating health insurance providers and platforms in 2020, and discuss some of the things that could make the process better and what economic incentives can we use to really make the system work for the people reliant on it. 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

My Health Insurance, My Self

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/fe6162cf-c8b5-4089-aef5-17ce8744bc39_Health_Equity_Activism6mhbm.mp3

Song is joined by Gregg Gonsalves, a professor at the Yale School of Public Health and Yale Law School focusing on operations research/epidemiology for infectious disease, who has been an AIDS and global health activist for 30 yrs. Recorded the day after Inauguration Day 2021, we share moments of reflection on the dawn of the new Biden era. We talk Covid-19 vaccine and what it would take to roll it out equitably. And throughout the conversation, we are spurred on to roll up our sleeves stay mobilized because there is much work to be done.  
Side note: if you need any more inspiration, the documentary Gregg referred to on the show - &#34;a riveting, powerful telling of the story of the grassroots movement of activists, many of them in a life-or-death struggle, who seized upon scientific research to help develop the drugs that turned HIV from a mostly fatal infection to a manageable disease&#34; is a must-see: <a href="https://surviveaplague.com/" rel="nofollow">https://surviveaplague.com/</a>   
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Song is joined by Gregg Gonsalves, a professor at the Yale School of Public Health and Yale Law School focusing on operations research/epidemiology for infectious disease, who has been an AIDS and global health activist for 30 yrs. Recorded the day after Inauguration Day 2021, we share moments of reflection on the dawn of the new Biden era. We talk Covid-19 vaccine and what it would take to roll it out equitably. And throughout the conversation, we are spurred on to roll up our sleeves stay mobilized because there is much work to be done.  
Side note: if you need any more inspiration, the documentary Gregg referred to on the show - &#34;a riveting, powerful telling of the story of the grassroots movement of activists, many of them in a life-or-death struggle, who seized upon scientific research to help develop the drugs that turned HIV from a mostly fatal infection to a manageable disease&#34; is a must-see: https://surviveaplague.com/   
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

Health, Equity + Activism

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/e65bbf60-3d1a-4bbb-8bb8-a0b54c25a029_Season_2_Episode_2_-_1_25_21_1208_PM8cx0r.mp3

Abbigale Shi joins us again to discuss how 2020 has been an inflection point in all our lives, highlighting priorities, and challenging us to weigh and hold many hard things at once. 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Abbigale Shi joins us again to discuss how 2020 has been an inflection point in all our lives, highlighting priorities, and challenging us to weigh and hold many hard things at once. 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

2020 An Inflection Point

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/5d1f9197-077d-44b2-a8c8-f0387cc790e3_Season_2_Episode_1_-_1_16_21_135_PM7gjft.mp3

Abbigale Shi, <a href="https://dailyfreepress.com/author/abbigaleshi/" rel="nofollow">Opinion Editor at The Daily Free Press</a>, joins Sara and Song to talk about navigating personal ethical choices.
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Abbigale Shi, Opinion Editor at The Daily Free Press, joins Sara and Song to talk about navigating personal ethical choices.
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

Choice Under Capitalism: It's a Trap

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/2a036393-494e-4805-a6a8-e5f7b5ca74f4_Episode_18_-_12_21_20_1038_AMb201g.mp3

Lina Kacyem joins Sara again to discuss institutional structures in international development - how they are and are not working. And challenging ourselves to think about our motivations, privileges, history and how we share power. 
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Lina Kacyem joins Sara again to discuss institutional structures in international development - how they are and are not working. And challenging ourselves to think about our motivations, privileges, history and how we share power. 
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

International Development Pt 3

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/d77ba1fd-dde5-4977-8279-bb48ada70703_Episode_17_-_12_15_20_931_AMa82rb.mp3

Sara is joined by Yale School of Management Lina Kacyem to discuss the financial relationship between the United States and Sub-Saharan Africa.
Show Links:
<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/yale-africa-startup-review/" rel="nofollow">Yale Africa Startup Review</a>
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Sara is joined by Yale School of Management Lina Kacyem to discuss the financial relationship between the United States and Sub-Saharan Africa.
Show Links:
Yale Africa Startup Review
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

International Development Pt 2

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/a36f4132-e8c2-41f2-b218-33cc3e106833_International_Development_Pt_1_Final9x5ee.m4a

How our experiences in Africa, India, Korea, and the U.S. have shaped our understanding of international development and aid.

How our experiences in Africa, India, Korea, and the U.S. have shaped our understanding of international development and aid. 

International Development Pt 1

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/71dad931-a90e-460d-93f8-41b07fda8a56_Episode_15_-_11_18_20_1023_AM6w30s.mp3

In part two we discuss what it means to be a consumer of cannabis in the US and the policies that have influenced consumption and caused harm over time.
 
<a href="https://qz.com/quartzy/1519718/how-to-be-a-conscious-consumer-of-cannabis/" rel="nofollow">Quartz: How to be a Conscious Consumer of Cannabis </a>
<a href="https://cleangreencertified.com" rel="nofollow">Clean Green Certified</a>
<a href="https://atmos.earth/ethical-consumerism/" rel="nofollow">The Twilight of the Ethical Consumer</a>
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

In part two we discuss what it means to be a consumer of cannabis in the US and the policies that have influenced consumption and caused harm over time.
 
Quartz: How to be a Conscious Consumer of Cannabis 
Clean Green Certified
The Twilight of the Ethical Consumer
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram
 

Elections, Policy, and US Drug Policy Pt.2

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/369e39c3-0bb7-4402-be09-cf9f12d04653_Episode_14_-_11_18_20_836_AMbshts.mp3

We couldn&#39;t not talk about the election this week. In the first of two parts we talk about what we are looking forward to regarding transparent policy making under the Biden Harris administration. 
 
email us at <a href="mailto:hello@songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">hello@songandsara.com</a>
find us at <a href="https://www.songandsara.com" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

We couldn&#39;t not talk about the election this week. In the first of two parts we talk about what we are looking forward to regarding transparent policy making under the Biden Harris administration. 
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

Elections, Policy, and US Drug Policy Pt.1

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/36da40b8-6854-478b-b483-1f570b2c4c1c_Drug_Supply_Chains.mp3

What illicit drug has the most ethical supply chain? We investigated acid, cocaine, and heroine, and here&#39;s what we found.

What illicit drug has the most ethical supply chain? We investigated acid, cocaine, and heroine, and here&#39;s what we found. 

The Supply Chain of Drugs

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/4/18/193c4088-864c-46a2-99aa-398488eedb4e_Episode_12_-_10_6_20_351_PM8vayg.mp3

Song and Sara talk about current events, and systems that aren’t working for everyone.
 
Articles mentioned and referenced:
<a href="https://www.wired.com/story/turmoil-black-lives-matter-political-speech-coinbase/" rel="nofollow">Coinbase CEO message for no political speech</a>
<a href="https://osc.gov/Services/Pages/HatchAct-Federal.aspx" rel="nofollow">Federal Government Hatch Act</a> 
 
California Wildfires
<a href="https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/899422710/to-manage-wildfire-california-looks-to-what-tribes-have-known-all-along" rel="nofollow">Guidance from native populations</a> 
<a href="https://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/2020/09/environmentalists-destroyed-californias-forests/" rel="nofollow">Directing blame to environmental policy</a>
<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/climate/wildfires-insurance.html" rel="nofollow">Fire Insurance Premiums Rise</a>
 
<a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200929123431.htm" rel="nofollow">Japan planning to release contaminated water </a>
<a href="https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/zurich-invention-may-be-used-in-fukushima-nuclear-clean-up/46065524" rel="nofollow">A hopeful solution! </a>
 
<a href="https://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2020/05/jason-reynolds-may-26/" rel="nofollow">Jason Reynolds and imagining a better world </a>
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at <a href="http://www.songandsara.com/" rel="nofollow">songandsara.com</a>
or on <a href="https://www.instagram.com/fing_ethical/" rel="nofollow">Instagram</a>

Song and Sara talk about current events, and systems that aren’t working for everyone.
 
Articles mentioned and referenced:
Coinbase CEO message for no political speech
Federal Government Hatch Act 
 
California Wildfires
Guidance from native populations 
Directing blame to environmental policy
Fire Insurance Premiums Rise
 
Japan planning to release contaminated water 
A hopeful solution! 
 
Jason Reynolds and imagining a better world 
 
email us at hello@songandsara.com
find us at songandsara.com
or on Instagram

Imagining Better Systems